2011.06.26 19:00 - Waiting, Walking, Singing, Talking

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: afk off and on again.. .. :/
    Zaldaan Sirnah: how are you though?
    Hokon Cazalet: im doing well, you?
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Hokon and Zal :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    Hokon Cazalet: how are you?
    Calvino Rabeni: Doing well .. this feels like the first day of summer, weather wise
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Calvino Rabeni: And you?
    Hokon Cazalet: im doing well tonight
    Hokon Cazalet: just pondering things and happy that i get to go into work tomorrow in the afternoon; no early shift =)
    Calvino Rabeni: That sounds nice
    Calvino Rabeni: do you do a kind of work with lots of variable hours?
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah
    Hokon Cazalet: my schedule keeps changing
    Calvino Rabeni: I have some friends who are used to that - but I had the wrong assumptions about it
    Calvino Rabeni: was surprised to hear they liked it that way
    Calvino Rabeni: I guess it sounded complainy, but also maybe its the unexpected freedoms
    Hokon Cazalet: there is that
    Calvino Rabeni: or actually the work was hard enough that the time off seemed nice
    Hokon Cazalet: though sleeping habits can get messed up
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    milakel Resident: hi :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello everyone
    milakel Resident: ah, hokon. fc's been looking for you :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Aphro and Milakel
    milakel Resident: cal, haven't seen you in a while
    Hokon Cazalet: hiya
    Aphrodite Macbain: How was your trip Calvino?
    milakel Resident: oh, a trip?
    Calvino Rabeni: heh . good, still settling in thanks
    milakel Resident: please, tell more, cal :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Back at home now?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    milakel Resident: stev :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi stevenaia !
    Hokon Cazalet: hi stevenaia =)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: hiya
    stevenaia Michinaga: is there a topic (yet)?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not yet :)
    Calvino Rabeni: There's probably one emerging though in each of us :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: the robins are singing their hearts out on the rooftops tonight. It's been a sunny day
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    milakel Resident: cal's trip :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: the importance of birdsong
    stevenaia Michinaga: where is Cal going?
    milakel Resident: he's just returned
    milakel Resident: from a mysterious trip
    stevenaia Michinaga: birdsong, reminds me of something mentioned last week, Songlines
    Aphrodite Macbain: the songlines of Australia
    stevenaia Michinaga: a way of traveling
    Calvino Rabeni: Birdsong does seem important Aphro
    Calvino Rabeni: I suspect it is not as well studied and discussed as it warrants
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) Cal
    Aphrodite Macbain: It is a sign of life
    Aphrodite Macbain: for me

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I mean besides its scientific interest ... you're right, I think it has a place in the way the human mind has evolved
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods, bringing together (bird) songs and a travel
    Calvino Rabeni: speaking to the quality of the place, and security, and cheerfulness
    Aphrodite Macbain: at least 2 novels I know BIrdsong and "And No Birds Sang" talked about the lack of birdsong in the forests during both world wars"
    Calvino Rabeni: and a sign of what's going on around, the time of day, and so on
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, a sudden stop in birdsong is an ominous sign
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: the birds watch everything, seeing approaching predators, or a coming storm
    Aphrodite Macbain: In early Egyptian times, a bird was the symbol of the soul.
    milakel Resident: blackbird singing in the dead of night...
    Aphrodite Macbain: when birds stop singing, theer is a sort of spiritual vacuum
    Aphrodite Macbain: for me
    milakel Resident: hmm
    Aphrodite Macbain: a silence that feels ominous
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) Mila!
    milakel Resident: i guess it is eerie not hearing the birds in a summer morning
    Calvino Rabeni: In the same way that smoke was sometimes part of rituals, the birds fill the space  unsubstantially
    Calvino Rabeni: an intermediate place between solidity and space
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, the space of sound
    Calvino Rabeni: lively, hard to grasp in the hand, always nearby
    Aphrodite Macbain: they fill the liminal zone between heaven and earth
    stevenaia Michinaga: is it aways communications, even if we don't understand it?
    Aphrodite Macbain: a bird in the hand...
    Calvino Rabeni: oh, yes that's well put Aphro
    milakel Resident: the sacred bonfire
    Aphrodite Macbain: nice
    Calvino Rabeni: And their communication is mysterious
    Aphrodite Macbain: understood only by other birds
    stevenaia Michinaga: thank you for that word, Aph
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liminality
    Aphrodite Macbain: which one?
    stevenaia Michinaga: the one with its own Wiki page
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you think there are human listeners in traditional (nonscientific) societies who can understand some of what the birds are "saying"?
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah. a useful word
    milakel Resident: bird-watchers, i presume
    Aphrodite Macbain: that describes many realities
    Calvino Rabeni: Specialist listeners, like those who can track animals through the forest, seeing things we would have a hard time perceiving
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes I do Calvino
    stevenaia Michinaga: I'm sure they can be heard and read.. danger, happiness, time to mate
    stevenaia Michinaga: if you observe long enough
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the social signals of biological existence
    Calvino Rabeni: and environmental awareness
    Aphrodite Macbain: crows, for instance have many many sounds, each meaning something specific
    stevenaia Michinaga: some things we all have in common
    milakel Resident: that's exactly a scientific approach :) no magic involved
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Stevenaia
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that's true Steve, listening to anything for a long time may start to reveal its significances
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Milakel
    stevenaia Michinaga: whales, daulphins
    Aphrodite Macbain: I was walking though a forst this afternoon and heard the sound of a wren.
    stevenaia Michinaga: the winds, the waves for navagation
    Aphrodite Macbain: It was so extraordinarily joyous!
    milakel Resident: whales are mysterious creatures
    Aphrodite Macbain: It was celebrating being alive -or calling for its mate
    milakel Resident: communicating through the underwater sound channel for hundreds of miles
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems conciousness dwells in many places
    Aphrodite Macbain: the sounds of whales are less accessible but equally beautiful
    Hokon Cazalet: yup =)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I have a CD that identifies bird sounds. I'm beginning to learn the sounds. It feels like I'm learning a new language. Harder than Italian!
    stevenaia Michinaga: what about those pacific navigators who can "read " the waves to navagate between islands, there is a communication there that could also be scientific observations, yet it could be something more
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe aphro =)
    milakel Resident: aph :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves at observerum
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd like to study that too, Aphro
    Aphrodite Macbain: what is a pacific navigator stevenaia
    milakel Resident: how do you say "i love you" in sparrowish? :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Italian or bird language Cal?
    stevenaia Michinaga: the cultures of polynesia
    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking to combine it with geology, so I could read a language that's very slow, as well as one quick and ephemeral
    Aphrodite Macbain: tweeeet
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe milakel
    Aphrodite Macbain: Cal:-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: how would they combine Cal?
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.janesoceania.com/oceania_navigators/index.htm
    Aphrodite Macbain wonders how I whispered
    milakel Resident: i sometimes whistle back at birds in a forest
    Calvino Rabeni: They combine by being very different in a world that has strong complements

    milakel Resident: at times it feels as if they reply
    Aphrodite Macbain: Birdsong and geology - sound and time changing - like a contrapuntal composition
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: When I googled "the importance of birdsong" it did first refer to the influence of birdsong on music composition
    Aphrodite Macbain: sharp and solid written by Joh Cage
    Aphrodite Macbain: Makes sense
    stevenaia Michinaga: if you think about it, every sound ever made is still with us, just very quiet and mixed in with all the others
    stevenaia Michinaga: a rich background
    Aphrodite Macbain: in a cosmic sonar cloud
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, like the cosmic background radiation
    Calvino Rabeni: that's an interesting thought
    stevenaia Michinaga: like the big bang echo
    Aphrodite Macbain sliles smiles smiles smiles
    milakel Resident: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: the extension of the very interesting property of sound, that it mixes without losing its individuality
    Calvino Rabeni: except in the ears of the listener
    Aphrodite Macbain: It gets synthesized by he listener
    milakel Resident: how's that?
    Aphrodite Macbain: integrate, combined,
    Aphrodite Macbain: bringing order to complexity
    Aphrodite Macbain: sorry - I haven't eaten yet and am feeling lightheaded
    Calvino Rabeni: food is grounding :)
    Hokon Cazalet: eek @ being lightheaded
    Calvino Rabeni: sound is like waves, you can watch waves on a pond, that come from several sources and cross and mix
    Calvino Rabeni: the wave trains from each source just add together
    Calvino Rabeni: but could be separated again
    Calvino Rabeni: and don't stop each other from crossing the pond
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, lovely image cal
    milakel Resident: cal, yes, but how do they retain their "individuality"?
    Aphrodite Macbain: they continue their patterns
    Aphrodite Macbain: (my cat's tail keeps wafting over the keyboard)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: patern?
    Calvino Rabeni: Like the voices in an orchestra, you can hear the tuba and the violin, pick it out of the background
    Calvino Rabeni: and it mingles but doesn't really itself get changed
    Calvino Rabeni: listening is like tuning in
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes! collectively separate
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: mosaic rather than melting pot
    Zaldaan Sirnah: isn't it exactly like tuning in?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, tuning in sees the indvidual within the collective
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: and valuing its difference
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes responding
    Hokon Cazalet: brb, rl for a moment . . .
    Calvino Rabeni: but all the signals are mixed together into one channel
    Calvino Rabeni: I found it interesting that this works mathematically, and for images as well as sounds
    Calvino Rabeni: like those examples in movies where the blurred image of a face of licence plate can be re-sharpened by the computer
    Calvino Rabeni: showing that the information wasn't really lost by being mixed in with its surroundings
    Aphrodite Macbain: or its speed
    Calvino Rabeni: like stevenaia said, the sounds are still there but spread out
    Aphrodite Macbain: the sound waves go on forever?
    Aphrodite Macbain: in an ocean of sound
    stevenaia Michinaga: part of a very subtle level of the background
    Calvino Rabeni: in theory
    Calvino Rabeni: yes the ocean would spread them much faster and farther
    Zaldaan Sirnah: truth and waves
    Calvino Rabeni: mmhmm
    stevenaia Michinaga: the sound can't be undone once it exists, just impossible to hear very far away

    Aphrodite Macbain considers what waves of truth would look like
    Aphrodite Macbain: like a butterfly flapping its wings in Tokyo...
    Aphrodite Macbain: all action has an effect
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves of truth may be part of the waves of conciousness
    Aphrodite Macbain: that continues to resonate
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders where they go? Frozen in books?
    Aphrodite Macbain: wonder whether consciousness can be measured as a form of energy
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) steve
    Aphrodite Macbain: but energized by the reader Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: like quantum machanics/conciousness, if you measure it, it changes
    Calvino Rabeni: It's calling to mind a poem by David Whyte:

    All those years
    how everything
    has its own voice
    to make
    itself heard.

    All those years
    how easily
    you can belong
    to everything
    simply by listening.

    And the slow
    of remembering
    how everything
    is born from
    an opposite
    and miraculous
    Silence and winter
    has led me to that

    Calvino Rabeni: Measurement being intrinsically a conversation that goes both ways :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: That's lovely Calvino. Who wrote it?
    Calvino Rabeni: David Whyte, from http://www.panhala.net/Archive/The_Winter_of_Listening.html
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. He's a favourite of yours isn't he?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Beautiful
    Calvino Rabeni: A current favorite yes ...
    Calvino Rabeni: this web site has a lot of favorites
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.panhala.net/Archive/Index.html
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks!
    stevenaia Michinaga: brb
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks I've saved the web site Cal
    Aphrodite Macbain: Do you read through all those names Calvino or do you select the poets you know?
    Calvino Rabeni: I usually look at the familiar names
    Calvino Rabeni: And somehow the themes stand out
    Calvino Rabeni: Here's another about this theme of individuality mixing with the collective
    Calvino Rabeni: by May Sarton (not May Swenson):

    Now I become myself. It's taken
    Time, many years and places,
    I have been dissolved and shaken,
    Worn other people's faces,
    Run madly, as if Time were there,
    Terribly old, crying a warning,
    "hurry, you will be dead before -----"
    (What? Before you reach the morning?
    or the end of the poem, is clear?
    Or love safe in the walled city?)
    Now to stand still, to be here,
    Feel my own weight and density!.....
    Now there is time and Time is young.
    O, in this single hour I live
    All of myself and do not move
    I, the pursued, who madly ran,
    Stand still, stand still, and stop the Sun!

    Calvino Rabeni: "I've been dissolved and shaken"
    Calvino Rabeni: yet not lost
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.panhala.net/Archive/Now_I_Become_Myself.html
    Zaldaan Sirnah: sorry I'm afk involved in a lot.. I have a question if you guys don't mind.. when you are observing others, say, in their dispute, you can objectively perceive it and sometimes I think I can almost be a bit wise.. but how can I do this when I'm personally involved? when I react, get upset, etc..
    Calvino Rabeni: isn't that a great question...
    stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes you can't which is why a third party mediator is brought in

    stevenaia Michinaga: even if you are objective, will the other person in the dispute believe you?
    Hokon Cazalet: back
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps by discriminating the kernel of truth within the reaction... the conversational nature of reality is that we bring a different perspective to the situation
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb Hokon
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's hard to be objective if you are implicated somehow. Best admit ones subjectivity and go from there
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Aphrodite Macbain: That is an amazing poem Cal. I can complely identify with her. Very moving
    Aphrodite Macbain: he importance of being open
    Calvino Rabeni: The principle says that the situation is co-created
    Calvino Rabeni smiles
    Aphrodite Macbain: the
    Aphrodite Macbain: what principle Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: That there's no separate observer, and observation is participation
    Calvino Rabeni: and that to listen is to be part of the system
    Aphrodite Macbain: (I have now eaten a peanut butter sandwich and feel less floaty)
    Calvino Rabeni: a part that is tuned in a certain way to respond in a unique manner
    Aphrodite Macbain: so there is no such thing as objectivity?
    Calvino Rabeni: that's I think where the valuable contribution lies
    Calvino Rabeni: objectivity I think is an ideal
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes .platonic
    Calvino Rabeni: like saying the earth is basically flat
    Aphrodite Macbain: is objectivity valuable?
    Aphrodite Macbain: useful?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it's valuable in the learning that comes from striving for it
    Aphrodite Macbain: relevant?
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: the process is more important than the result?
    Calvino Rabeni: it asks for seeing universals within differences
    Aphrodite Macbain: scratch that.
    Aphrodite Macbain: universals= truth?
    Aphrodite Macbain: a long way from birdsong...
    Calvino Rabeni: I was just wondering how those ideas could be bridged
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Aphrodite Macbain: universals and truth?
    Aphrodite Macbain: they are not mutually exclusive
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps there is a connection, is there a bias when listening to a birdsong?, or just acceptance
    Calvino Rabeni: universals / truth ... and bird song
    Hokon Cazalet: ive been thinking about that lately, universal vs. individual, repeating vs. singularity
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah
    Calvino Rabeni: you can't really say, hey, bird, that's not how the song goes :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    Calvino Rabeni listens to Hokon too :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: sure you can, but be careful what you ask for, the bird may answer
    Aphrodite Macbain: can you say more Hokon?
    Hokon Cazalet: well i think time is a crucial factor, one side of the dualities fit with eternal/non-temporal (universal, repeating), the other side with the temporal (physical world, particular objects)
    Calvino Rabeni: Thinking that's a nice restatement of the implicit theme of the evening
    Calvino Rabeni: Time being the manner in which the differences emerge?
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Aphrodite Macbain: do they have to be dualities/ Can't they exist together like sounds from an orchestra?
    Aphrodite Macbain: like
    Hokon Cazalet: or a way they are brought together
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. time and perhaps space and consciousness
    Hokon Cazalet: they are dualties, but i think they can be united somehow, like a band =)
    Calvino Rabeni: If events were always completely regular and invariantly repetitive, there'd be no need for time
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Aphrodite Macbain: it would also be boring
    Calvino Rabeni: heh
    Hokon Cazalet: yet if every event was utterly new and original, time couldnt be perceived b/c we couldnt join the events together into a time-line
    Zaldaan Sirnah: the objectivity seems to let me see what's going on with the person better..
    Zaldaan Sirnah: as a third party I get to see both people and consider
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Zaldan

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I think objectivity is a little like time, it says, I see the pattern, but have room for other possibilities
    Zaldaan Sirnah: but, inspired by the comment, "...will they believe you," I began thinking about what the result of being objective is/would be
    Aphrodite Macbain: thee would be no synthesis Hokon , just a stream of unrelated "events"
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: (even using the word event is a problem in that case, cuz that presumes event-ness is repeating itself, yet if its completely original, not even that classification could apply)
    Aphrodite Macbain: there are parallel conversations going on right now that intertwine and complement each othere but they dont offer any ultimate truth
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I feel like reading the log during the 90 seconds is not exactly observing silence..
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Zakdaan. You're right
    Aphrodite Macbain: Zaldaan
    Zaldaan Sirnah: a sacrifice I made to get caught up.. futile since company is over :}
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Zaldaan for observing that
    Aphrodite Macbain: I must go and feed myself more than a peanut butter sandwich. I've reallyenjoyed our discussion
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you
    stevenaia Michinaga: try ice cream
    Hokon Cazalet: byebyes, have fun eating
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Aphro, thanks
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: mmmm looks in fridge and finds no icecream
    Calvino Rabeni: :) steve, you're the voice of tempation at the moment
    Calvino Rabeni: And I see the possibility of a visit to the grocery has significantly grown
    stevenaia Michinaga: smile
    stevenaia Michinaga: a word can change so much
    Calvino Rabeni: on sympathetic ears
    Zaldaan Sirnah: who is knowledge destined for?
    Calvino Rabeni: For who listens to it?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: but do you just share everything of yours .. private and not? how do you know what to say to anyone?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, thank you all for the evening conversation
    Hokon Cazalet: aww see ya laters =)
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care Stevenia :)

    Calvino Rabeni: We're not trying to fit a template that already exists
    Calvino Rabeni: It's like asking what makes the conversation worthwhile
    Calvino Rabeni: There are lots of theories for that, or metaphors
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance Jazz improvisation is one of them
    Calvino Rabeni: Another theory is, the meaning of the expression is the effect it has
    Calvino Rabeni: so the "sharing" is a co-created event
    Calvino Rabeni: Those are adaptive, emergent definitions
    Calvino Rabeni: Another set of ideas is more task-oriented
    Hokon Cazalet: i like the idea of sharing as co-created
    Calvino Rabeni: like the idea of people working together on a pre-defined goal
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I like it too
    Hokon Cazalet: brb rl again
    Calvino Rabeni: OK
    Calvino Rabeni: One interesting thing about "knowledge" is that the "same" elements get interpreted very different according to the individual and cultural differences in consciousness, of the people participating in that knowledge
    Calvino Rabeni: For example the political changes in the Arab countries ... arise partly from a change in the perception of the people about their possible freedoms
    Calvino Rabeni: But the influence goes both ways
    Calvino Rabeni: And when it "comes back" it has influences that are hard to see and understand, or maybe threatening
    Calvino Rabeni: Yet that's "knowledge" in action
    Calvino Rabeni: the "dark matter" of knowledge

    Calvino Rabeni: Although many definitions of knowledge focus on the light side of it ... the poets work at providing the complementary point of view
    Calvino Rabeni: Another by David Whyte:

    The dark will be your womb

    The night will give you a horizon
    further than you can see.

    You must learn one thing:
    the world was made to be free in.

    Give up all the other worlds
    except the one to which you belong.

    Sometimes it takes darkness and the sweet
    confinement of your aloneness
    to learn

    anything or anyone
    that does not bring you alive

    is too small for you.

    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Paradise :)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya cal hokon milakel zaldaan
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Hello
    Calvino Rabeni: For the log: http://www.panhala.net/Archive/Sweet_Darkness.html
    Paradise Tennant: he has very sure eyes :) and the words to describe what he sees ...thank you cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I also like this poet May Swenson, who couldn't be more different than David Whyte
    Calvino Rabeni: She looks at virtually everything, events in detail, stepping inside the descriptive position and finding more degrees of freedom in it
    Calvino Rabeni: The collection is called
    Calvino Rabeni: "New and Selected Things Taking Place"
    Calvino Rabeni: I like that designation for a poem - "things taking place"

    stevenaia Michinaga: waves
    Calvino Rabeni waves back to Stevenaia
    Paradise Tennant: hiya stev .. we are reading poetry :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: listens
    Paradise Tennant: david whyte
    Calvino Rabeni: There's also "The Complete Poems to Solve" (also by May Swenson), which presents poems as a kind of puzzle that in solving, puts you in the conversation with things taking place
    Zaldaan Sirnah: here's a deep thought, by jack handey...
    Zaldaan Sirnah: "Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff."
    Calvino Rabeni: That has a dose of irony, doesn't it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Poems don't have to be deep and meaningful
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes they just polish the surfaces
    Calvino Rabeni: to be taken seriously ..actually I like poets who don't concern themselves too much with that
    Calvino Rabeni: Like the light verse of Piet Hein, just a humourous vehicle
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/bio/may-swenson
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks :)
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.chat.carleton.ca/~tcstewar/grooks/grooks.html
    Hokon Cazalet: back
    Calvino Rabeni: Like doing yoga, the poem's meaning is the effect of the doing of it
    Calvino Rabeni: not burdened by the need to take its value from reference to something abstract
    Calvino Rabeni: The poems don't reference an idea or experience - they ARE it
    Calvino Rabeni: at least not exclusively reference
    Paradise Tennant: smiles yes ! it is a stretching of your thought that changes you a bit ..after you experience truly experience someone else's vision you resonate a bit differently you pick up a bit of their depth
    Calvino Rabeni: nice way to put it Paradise yes
    Calvino Rabeni: We started the session looking at bird song
    Calvino Rabeni: no doubt it has various health benefits for the bird :)
    Hokon Cazalet: a friend wants to show me something; ive had a good time listening tonight (waves)

    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Hokon take care
    stevenaia Michinaga: bedtme for me...again
    stevenaia Michinaga: night all
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night, Stevenaia
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite stev :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: gnight :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Zal :)
    Paradise Tennant: good nite zal
    Paradise Tennant: david whyte does a lot more than poetry .. :) it seems :)
    Calvino Rabeni: it seems
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.soundstrue.com/shop/What-to-Remember-When-Waking/2209.productdetails
    Paradise Tennant: all manner of talks :)
    Calvino Rabeni: poetry is a good cover for other ways of being
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I had that on order from the library, but it's very popular
    Paradise Tennant: on living
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: unlike the poetry books which are easy to get :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles poetry waxes and wanes with human culture ..ours does not really revere it the way others have
    Calvino Rabeni: knowledge moves through the culture in mysterious ways
    Calvino Rabeni: Popular music and its lyrics are the form it takes now
    Paradise Tennant: yes rap :)
    Paradise Tennant: some of which I like but most of which hurts my brain
    Calvino Rabeni: as a form, yes, also folk and indie has traction
    Calvino Rabeni: On the way to the car I found a recorded CD with the label "Mix #2" or something
    Calvino Rabeni: Had no idea what would be on it
    Calvino Rabeni: so I popped it in during the road trip

    Calvino Rabeni: rap forms, but the thematic content was going everywhere - some really imaginative and with a quality of presence (actually presenCING) that I associate with poetry
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.davidwhyte.com/
    Calvino Rabeni: in that it weaves a world and pulls in the listener
    Paradise Tennant: yes with the traction of a very compelling beat sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: with a kind of chorus providing the observer position
    Calvino Rabeni: like there was the story, all these things were happening in the present tense, then the chorus reflects - "Help, I'm stuck in a dream! and I can't get out!!"
    Paradise Tennant: smiles life :)
    Paradise Tennant: he does european walking tours too that would be fun :) a morning of poetry an afternoon of tuscan sunshine :)
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, that has potential
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe lots of it
    Paradise Tennant: interesting how you can make life what you want it to be if you believe > I would bet he believes in a powerful way :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The path is made by the walking?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles one step at a time ..one thought at a time :)
    Calvino Rabeni: He's not going to use the word "faith", but it may amount to the same thing
    Paradise Tennant: I have not read much of his work does he believe in spirit ? a oneness .. ? god ?
    Calvino Rabeni: The theme of belonging recurs often in his work
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd guess he prefers to stand in the place outside labels, but for me a lot of what he says has a kind of buddhist flavor
    Paradise Tennant:

    by David Whyte
    from River Flow: New & Selected

    Walked out this morning
    into a broad green garden
    with the rising sun in my eyes
    and the first hint of the day's heat
    touching my face,
    feeling as broad as the garden
    and young as the day
    and soaking up the heat
    in my black tee-shirt,
    walked straight forward
    out of the gate,
    through the wood,
    along the river,
    toward the mountain
    and thought of the future
    I could make in the world
    if I walked toward it
    like this,
    with my face toward the hills
    and my eyes full of light
    and the earth sure
    and solid beneath me,
    walking on
    with a fierce anticipation,
    and a faithful expectation,
    with the sun and the rain
    and the wind on my skin
    and the old sense
    I remember at twenty
    of many paths
    breaking from one path...

    Calvino Rabeni: things become real by one's participation in them
    Paradise Tennant: hmm smiles very fond of the buddhist flavour myself

    Calvino Rabeni: Walking is a good metaphor - The "facing and moving toward" theme comes up a lot, and reflected in his video "the conversational nature of reality"
    Paradise Tennant: really really enjoyed that video :)
    Paradise Tennant: one sec drying mint in the oven need to check it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: the anticipation and expectation, I might guess, are the bringing of the fuller self into relationship
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: (smells mint)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles yes me too !
    Paradise Tennant: bought a basket of it at the st lawrence market yesterday going to try it as tea and mint sauce
    Calvino Rabeni: What kind of mint?
    Paradise Tennant: hmm there are lots of kinds .. of different kinds of mint
    Paradise Tennant: it was simply labelled ontario mint ?
    Calvino Rabeni: This is a good time of year to find it growing wild along rivers and wet places
    Paradise Tennant: smiles do not get out enought into the wild wet places :) I am afraid ..need to change that ..
    Calvino Rabeni: wider thicker leaves, a little fuzzy, maybe spearment, thinner with points and a darker colour, maybe peppermint
    Paradise Tennant: this is peppermint then no fuzz :)
    Calvino Rabeni: This was an incredibly lush spring
    Calvino Rabeni: ah
    Calvino Rabeni: and the wild lettuce lasted a lot longer than usual
    Paradise Tennant: smiles do you forage :)))))
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I like to
    Calvino Rabeni: Here's a good book on May Swenson, by the way http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1015&context=usupress_pubs&sei-redir=1#search=%22may%20swenson%20dream%22
    Paradise Tennant: like finding little gifts . isn't finding wild blueberries or strawberries :)
    Calvino Rabeni: "To Swenson, everything on earth speaks body language ."
    Paradise Tennant: she had a long prolific career :)
    Paradise Tennant: lovely to be able to pour that out into the world like a song really that resonates after you are gone :)
    Calvino Rabeni: it has a fullness, doesn't it?
    Paradise Tennant: yes I believe she lived in the fullness of life :)
    Paradise Tennant: because she was of aware of it :) she could see it :) clearly
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, well-embodied
    Calvino Rabeni: and willing to take the time to wait, look, and walk into what appeared

    Paradise Tennant: waiting is part of life ..sometimes things take time to rez :)
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, or they don't rez until you move toward them, like here.
    Paradise Tennant: yes we walk blindly mostly .. only in stllness is there a chance to get your eyes open it seems :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The need to be physically present for life to occur, maybe the identity of life and presence
    Calvino Rabeni: she explored the ideas around that
    Calvino Rabeni:

    by May Swenson

    Body my house
    my horse my hound
    what will I do
    when you are fallen

    Where will I sleep
    How will I ride
    What will I hunt

    Where can I go
    without my mount
    all eager and quick
    How will I know
    in thicket ahead
    is danger or treasure
    when Body my good
    bright dog is dead

    How will it be
    to lie in the sky
    without roof or door
    and wind for an eye

    With cloud for shift
    how will I hide?

    Paradise Tennant: those last six lines ...
    Paradise Tennant: are the question :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Rhythm and timing are the inescapable terms of engagement
    Paradise Tennant: with vision
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes vision, maybe that's the something-extra that Whyte is writing about
    Paradise Tennant: there are a lot of layers to those last six lines
    Paradise Tennant: how will i hide ..

    Calvino Rabeni: Swenson said a poem is like a package or container or a present to be opened, it might have different compartments and things inside, maybe levels to it
    Paradise Tennant: she has glittery eyes .. smiles ..the sharp piecing kind that really see
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: seeing more than once the same thing
    Paradise Tennant: seeing more than once the same thing ...
    Calvino Rabeni: seeing without reducing it to concept, seeing that revisiting something gives it a way to unfold further
    Calvino Rabeni: and it's I think not always easy to hold that space open
    Paradise Tennant: spending time with it moment to moment :)
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: the space of open seeing, where wonder and alertness can coexist with identification

    Calvino Rabeni glances at the clock, remembers the time the grocery closes
    Paradise Tennant: smiles thanks Cal for sharing ... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The dreams are guests, they visit for a while, and we don't know where they came from or are going next
    Paradise Tennant: enjoy the food shopping .. I always really like it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: YW Paradise .. Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care, have a great week!
    Paradise Tennant: you too :) namaste my friend :)
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_

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