2011.06.30 01:00 - Independence, Anger and Innocence

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Calvino Rabeni, Cosmicflower Ushimawa, FcSeeker Resident, Milakel Resident, Rhiannon Dragoone, Zaldaan Sirnah and myself

    Getting up:

    FcSeeker Resident: Hello Zen :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Fc :)
    Zen Arado: how are you?
    FcSeeker Resident: I'm o.k.
    FcSeeker Resident: how are you ?
    Zen Arado: ah ok
    Zen Arado: I'm running a bit late this morning
    FcSeeker Resident: aha ?
    FcSeeker Resident: late of what ?
    Zen Arado: I stopped care workers coming about a month ago and I used to get up at 7.30
    Zen Arado: but now I can get up when I want to
    Zen Arado: so I sleep a bit later
    Zen Arado: :)
    FcSeeker Resident: smiles
    Zen Arado: but I have to get up at 7.30 to be here at 9am
    FcSeeker Resident: understand
    FcSeeker Resident: there are many things why people need much time to prepare to do something
    Zen Arado: yeh
    milakel Resident: hi :)
    FcSeeker Resident: Hi milakel
    milakel Resident: i'll sit here quietly with you :)
    Zen Arado: it takes me 1 1/2 hours to have a shower, get dressed and breakfast
    Zen Arado: Hi Mila :)
    milakel Resident: that's a zen-ish approach to start your day :)
    Zen Arado: nah..it's cos I'm so disabled :)
    milakel Resident: ah
    Zen Arado: takes 1/2 hour to get my clothes on
    milakel Resident: still, i lean toward your figure than a 15-min marathone :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I have a solution to that, Zen
    milakel Resident: especially with food. it takes time for me :)
    milakel Resident: rhia :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Rhia :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Mila
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Zen
    milakel Resident: rhia, doesn't work in all climates :)
    Zen Arado: what's that Rhia?
    FcSeeker Resident: Hi Rhia
    FcSeeker Resident: Hi observerm
    Zen Arado: oh I see :)
    Zen Arado: I'm slow this morning :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Fc
    Zen Arado: yeh too cold here
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Fireplaces, Mila. And exercise
    Zen Arado: I have my central heating on still and it's middle of summer
    Zen Arado: it's 13 C here atm
    FcSeeker Resident: that's too little for sure
    Zen Arado: it's been a poor summer so far

    'The Ethical Slut':

    Zen Arado: did you have a class yesterday Rhia?
    Zen Arado: I didn't get a notice
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I cancelled class today, and my student irl too, as I had a lot of paperwork to do.
    Zen Arado: ok
    Zen Arado: I had to go to another meeting at 12 SLT anyway
    Zen Arado: so many meetings
    Zen Arado: I'd love to have a discussion book about a book I am reading
    Zen Arado: about a book I mean
    Rhiannon Dragoone: 13 degrees is only cold in summer.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, have one.
    Zen Arado: yeh true
    Zen Arado: it a book called 'The Ethical Slut'
    Zen Arado: fascinated by it
    FcSeeker Resident: :)
    Zen Arado: and repelled a bit too
    Zen Arado: it challenges all my ideas
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Although I used to work at a club which kept the temp 20 C all year round, and that's cold when you're working naked.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: The Ethical Slut?
    Zen Arado: yeh
    Zen Arado: it's been around a while
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Um, should I been offended? lol
    Zen Arado: not if you read the book :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone laughs
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, I've never heard of it; hat's it's thesis/
    Zen Arado: http://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Slut-P...9422001&sr=8-1
    Zen Arado: it challenges the idea of monogamy for one thing
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Polyamory. I've known people who practice that.
    Zen Arado: it's easy in SL
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Almost hard to avoid it. lol
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: to me it would take a lot of energy
    Zen Arado: more partners = more problems
    Zen Arado: ?
    Zen Arado: but I like to challenge ppl's beliefs I guess
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, it the partners are men, well, yeah.
    Zen Arado: and my own of course
    Zen Arado: hmmm
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Jeepers, what if the women gang up on you? I've been beaten by jealous wives
    Zen Arado: was thinking the other way round :)
    Zen Arado: ha


    Zen Arado: the key problem...jealousy
    Zen Arado: one thing they make clear
    Zen Arado: everything has to be open
    Zen Arado: no cheating
    Zen Arado: the partners should all know each other
    Zen Arado: like an extended family
    Zen Arado: 'how to have a successful group orgy'
    Zen Arado: hmmm
    Zen Arado: not sure about that stuff
    Zen Arado: have thrown the book away but come back to it
    Zen Arado: great chapter on unlearning jealousy
    Zen Arado: and I think we all suffer from that
    Zen Arado: ?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: The only orgies I've been too are me and a bunch of guys. Not exactly what you're talking about.
    Zen Arado: well I haven't any practical experience...
    Zen Arado: guess it's about sharing love though
    Zen Arado: and maybe the more we love and share love the better
    FcSeeker Resident: I am very sure of that
    Zen Arado: rather than ration it to one person
    FcSeeker Resident: but the most common reason that it does not happen is jealousy
    Zen Arado: and be possessive
    Zen Arado: yes
    FcSeeker Resident: my belief is that people feel that only because there is not love enough yet among people
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Yes, that's the rub; the orgy I was in, SI was more the entertainment to be passed around,; no jealousy because the roles were well defined. But a group of friends? jealousy could really get in the way.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Fc, yes,, love conquers jealousy.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Jealousy is based in lack of trust.
    Zen Arado: there are ways of coping with jealousy
    FcSeeker Resident: it comes to be the problem often also for the friendship
    FcSeeker Resident: not only in love affairs
    Zen Arado: yes
    Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, yes, you can be jealous of a friend's paying to much attention to someone else
    Zen Arado: we are jealous of ppl's talents
    FcSeeker Resident: that is also so much still teached to the children that one may love only one person with full human way
    Zen Arado: competitive jealousy
    FcSeeker Resident: with that I mean that there is sexual motions also
    Zen Arado: yes Fc
    Zen Arado: sexual jealousy is a powerful force
    FcSeeker Resident: for tens of years I didn't understand why my elder sister was so jealousy to me
    Zen Arado: wonder what evolutionary advantage it had?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Zaldaan
    FcSeeker Resident: Hello Zaldaan
    Zen Arado: Hi Zaldaan :)
    Zen Arado: yes Fc?
    FcSeeker Resident: then I once sat down and decided to travel back in time and observe all such events she tortured me
    FcSeeker Resident: and I realized that it was because I could do things that she couldnt even she was older
    Zen Arado: you can't help her with this though?
    FcSeeker Resident: so family way dont tell me that it means only good thing
    Zen Arado: she has to work with that herself
    FcSeeker Resident: well...there was time when she needed my help just a while ago
    FcSeeker Resident: I was told about that before hand so I asked help that I can help her then
    FcSeeker Resident: even she'd want me to be dead
    FcSeeker Resident: but I got help to myself so I could help her
    Zen Arado: she didn't want you to help?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: hiya
    FcSeeker Resident: she does not want help from anybody
    FcSeeker Resident: but she did receive some from me, so she does not hate me anymore
    FcSeeker Resident: she is one of such people who takes themself to be 'god'
    Zen Arado: hmm
    Zen Arado: I like to be independent I notice
    Zen Arado: wonder if there is a lot of pride in that
    Zen Arado: it can be hard to ask for help

    Pride and dignity:

    Rhiannon Dragoone: Pride would explain it; a wish for dignity as well.
    Zen Arado: yeh dignity is a good word
    Rhiannon Dragoone: She may simply wantt her dignity, Fc
    Zen Arado: I was in hospital this time last year
    Zen Arado: not much dignity there
    Zen Arado: not if you are disabled as well
    Zen Arado: but dignity is still preserving a kind of self image?
    Zen Arado: more about deserving to be treated with respect by others ?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, more about your self image.
    Zen Arado: we have a right to expect respectful treatment from others I think
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, yes.
    Zen Arado: sometimes I feel like a sack of potatoes when ppl push me around in a wheelchair
    Zen Arado: as I tell people :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, i can see that, but the other day, Rosalyn had to go to Wal Mart, and the greeter there asked her if she wanted a wheel chair or one of thos e scooters, and we are grateful for it. It made it easier on her and it was an act of kindngess. We even told the managera bout it
    FcSeeker Resident: sorry I got emergency issue in my RL
    FcSeeker Resident: brb
    Zen Arado: oh yes there are kind helpful people around
    Zen Arado: I struggle to reach things on shelves
    Zen Arado: keep having to ask ppl to reach me things
    Zen Arado: most are happy to do that
    Zen Arado: actually it's good to allow ppl to do kind acts
    Zen Arado: makes them feel good
    Rhiannon Dragoone: So it depends; sometimes,you feel like a sack of potatoes and sometimes you bask in the acts of kindness
    Zen Arado: yes :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: It's rough having a disabillity.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And rough on the people around you, as they don't know exactly how to act.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I just treat everyone the same.
    Zen Arado: so best to tell them
    Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, it is
    Zen Arado: it can be tiring too
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Otherwise, how will they know?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I was in the supermarket and they had those scooters. They had two, and it was late so not many other customers were around, so I asked if I could use one and they said sure.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Of course, it will be tiring.
    Zen Arado: if I go to a zen retreat I have to train ppl how what to do
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I don't treat them the same... In general I keep an eye out in case someone with a disability needs something. The rare instances when someone is a cranky one don't outweigh the needs of the rest.
    Zen Arado: would be so much easier to get the same person
    Zen Arado: yes Zal
    Zen Arado: a little thought and empathy helps
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, I don't mean the same in that I'd expect a person in a wheelchair to be able to reach a high shelf. That would be ridiculous. I mean I don't see people as in a group membership; I see people as people
    Zen Arado: and treating a disabled person as an individual person
    Zen Arado: exactly Rhi
    Zen Arado: sometimes I just look up at something on a high shelf and someone will ask me if I need something lifted down
    Zen Arado: I guess there is applicability to all of us in this
    Zen Arado: being receptive to the needs of others
    FcSeeker Resident: back
    FcSeeker Resident: shall roll the lines
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Like here's an example of what I'm talking about. I was watching a PBS show on the history of Black Comedy, and it mentioned the beakthrough show, Amos & Andy, which was suppressed on acoount of people thiking it was racist. And there was an hilarious line in it. I used it in class. Everone recognized it; they had all seen the show. The whites were appaled, but the one black student thought it was hilarious and it broke the ice. All other white people wer walking on eggs around him.
    Zen Arado: wb Fc
    Zaldaan Sirnah: You know what I don't like.. and yet it's not actually a bad thing..
    Rhiannon Dragoone: wb Fc Everything fine?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: is when people look at someone with a disability and feel grateful about what they consider their own "well-being"
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, we're all 'disabgled,' as none of us are God
    Zaldaan Sirnah: perhaps it's because the person with the disability -- their identity is not limited to "I'm here so you can feel good about yourself"
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, time for me to go get some sleep.
    Zen Arado: nite Rhi
    Rhiannon Dragoone: nite, Zen
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Nite all.
    Zen Arado: was going to say I actually remembe that show from the fifties :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: In fact, I sometimes study disability, not to directly relate it to illness, as an indicator of the shame of the state of mankind's progress
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Really?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: you actually saw it?
    Zen Arado: yeh was on British TV then
    Zen Arado: when I was a kid
    Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, the line, in case you're interested was "This here's the atom. And the atom is broken into the monocle. Ahd the monocle is broken into protons, neutrons, fig newtons, and morons."
    Zaldaan Sirnah: illness and material problems are motivators for the development of human comprehensiveness
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: remembers the line OOOOOOh Andy
    Zen Arado: :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, nighty-nite, everyone.
    Zen Arado: nite
    Zen Arado: yes Zal
    Zen Arado: but we are improving I guess
    Zen Arado: I remember how bad it ws when I was young
    FcSeeker Resident: read the lines
    FcSeeker Resident: well Zen; is it good thing then if she just wants to keep her independency and tortures other people for that ?
    FcSeeker Resident: anyways imo she only wanted to enjoy to torture me, so I cannot connect that with the will to be independent
    Zen Arado: yeh
    Zen Arado: it's complex the way people act
    FcSeeker Resident: she may learn when she stepes foreward from this her incarnation
    FcSeeker Resident: at least I wish so


    Zen Arado: anger gives us a sesnse of power if we feel inadequate
    Zen Arado: but is destructive to others and oueselves
    FcSeeker Resident: well...to me such power is illusion
    Zen Arado: yes
    FcSeeker Resident: anger gives only anger to one who feels it and to whom he/she tries to throwe it on
    FcSeeker Resident: but we have an option to shelter us from such
    FcSeeker Resident: and help people to throw out their anger
    Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
    FcSeeker Resident: Hello Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, what's happening?
    Zen Arado: just chatting about jealousy and anger and stuff
    Calvino Rabeni: juicy stuff :)
    Zen Arado: and about being independent or asking for help
    Zen Arado: wondering why I hate asking for help
    Zen Arado: pride, vanity, self image or dignity?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: yeah, what IS anger?
    Calvino Rabeni: it is a way people in social relationships signal each other to be decisive
    FcSeeker Resident: anger is the child of sorrows
    Zen Arado: I get angry when I don't accept things the way they are
    FcSeeker Resident: it comes when one has not had time to handle own sorrows enough
    Zen Arado: I want them to be the way I want them to be
    Calvino Rabeni: Sorrows often underly anger, I agree
    Calvino Rabeni: *underlie, lie under
    Zen Arado: I get angry at fate more than at people
    milakel Resident: cal :)
    Zen Arado: people only act from their experience and conditioning and so on anyway
    milakel Resident: that's a nice long session :)


    Calvino Rabeni: when innocence is lost, anger soon arrives
    Zen Arado: is innocence to be desired?
    Calvino Rabeni: it is a natural state, basic goodness
    Calvino Rabeni: so ues
    Calvino Rabeni: *yes
    Zen Arado: ah ok if yu put it like that
    Calvino Rabeni: One thinking of it, may remember times when it was lost, that happened early in life
    Calvino Rabeni: And were accompanied by great sorrow
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Fate keeps proving to me that it's full of blessing, but yet, seemingly from my own doing, I cannot trust the future of it.
    Zen Arado: we lose our innocence when ppl hurt us
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, even more when we hurt others
    Zaldaan Sirnah: anger (from merriam webster). 1 a strong feeling of displeasure and usually of antagonism
    Zaldaan Sirnah: antagonism: 1 opposition in physiological action; especially : interaction of two or more substances such that the action of any one of them on living cells or tissues is lessened
    Zen Arado: don't think we can trust fate
    FcSeeker Resident: a story from my RL calls me to share it....
    Zen Arado: sure Fc
    Zaldaan Sirnah: 2 a. opposition of a conflicting force, tendency, or principle
    Calvino Rabeni: or trust dictionaries to be written by insightful people
    Zen Arado: yes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Your story FC?
    FcSeeker Resident: that's from the funeral of my uncels wife
    FcSeeker Resident: maybe it needs a bit back round telling
    FcSeeker Resident: my cousins do understand me to be real and realistic
    Zaldaan Sirnah: going by definition 1, I am considering that anger, usually with feelings of antagonism, decreases LIVING interaction
    FcSeeker Resident: but noone of their wifes
    FcSeeker Resident: there was also much people present who I didn't know
    FcSeeker Resident: the dead one's name is Margit
    FcSeeker Resident: Margit didn't leave me in peace before I promised to tell her message to her sons ...and sure at the same time to all who was present
    FcSeeker Resident: so I didn't see any other choice but to do what she asked
    FcSeeker Resident: so I went to stand beside the preast (our family religion is christianity)
    FcSeeker Resident: then I said that I just couldn't do otherwise but to come and bring Margit's message
    FcSeeker Resident: because Margit had teached very hardly to her sons that they are sinners and they must learn to not to do sin, which she took to be many just natural things for human to do
    FcSeeker Resident: she wanted now when she had been born to all new and beauty and to see the truth
    FcSeeker Resident: that her sons could find their innocence already in their earthly life
    FcSeeker Resident: because that is true that all human kind beings are innnocent
    FcSeeker Resident: the priest shared all with me and supported me strongly
    FcSeeker Resident: all others got red face, but my dearist cousin came to me after and asked me to speak more
    FcSeeker Resident: end of the sotry
    FcSeeker Resident: story
    Zen Arado: ty Fc :)
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks, Fc
    Zen Arado: I used to read old protestant purist preachers who said that we are all rotten sinners
    Zen Arado: only salvation by grace could save us
    Zen Arado: prefer Buddhis ideas
    Zen Arado: our true self is innocent
    FcSeeker Resident: save us from what ?
    Zen Arado: for hellfire :)
    Zen Arado: from*
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm trying to remember a zen book title, something like "how to live in a muddy pond"
    FcSeeker Resident: I beleive that as long as we are human being (or even this kind of panda), nothing saves us from hell fire completely
    Zen Arado: hellfire and brimstone preachers
    FcSeeker Resident: but I also take also the hellfire to be the teacher to teach us what we came here to learn
    Zen Arado: yeh like a lotus Cal
    Zen Arado: well
    Zen Arado: I have to go
    FcSeeker Resident: enjoy your time Zen
    Zen Arado: ty for coming
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: byeee
    Calvino Rabeni: Good to see you Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care

    The hellfire threat:

    Calvino Rabeni: So the hellfire is a teacher
    FcSeeker Resident: imo
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, same with any illness or affliction
    FcSeeker Resident: I am aware also of the hell to be an option to which spirit goes after our called death, but why and when that happens, I do not know any certain reason, because I've helped so many such people also beyond to continue their way, who have done suiside
    FcSeeker Resident: and have helped beautiful spirits also because they have been scared to continue
    FcSeeker Resident: so I have come to the conclution that hell is mostly here on Earth
    FcSeeker Resident: that this knowledge of innnocence comes to most of the spirits when so called dies
    Calvino Rabeni: Remembering again?
    FcSeeker Resident: that people can create the hell to other people and also to one's self....why....for that I know so much so called reasons that people feel themself to have, that would be impossible to write so much to chat for anybody to read
    Calvino Rabeni: Like the story that people come here, forget more and more, until they die, whereupon they may remember again
    FcSeeker Resident: all do not remember immediately after dead
    FcSeeker Resident: that depends of as many things than when you are born to human world
    FcSeeker Resident: I see no difference of either birth
    FcSeeker Resident: but by 'time' there comes the remembering all after your dead
    FcSeeker Resident: also many people do open their memory during human life
    FcSeeker Resident: many people call that to be enlightened
    milakel Resident: poof, zen left

    Cosmicflower arrives and renews acquaintances:

    FcSeeker Resident: Hello Cosmicflower
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi ***<3<3<3***
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: smiling
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello ***<3<3<3***
    milakel Resident: cosmic :)
    milakel Resident: haven't seen you in a long time. or so it seems :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Its a long time , yes ;)
    milakel Resident: been traveling? :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: nah
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: busy with life
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and work
    FcSeeker Resident: I sadly must log out
    FcSeeker Resident: takes humble bow
    milakel Resident: :)
    FcSeeker Resident: namaste all
    milakel Resident: baby panda :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Namaste
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how have you been? all
    Calvino Rabeni: I've been well thanks
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its good
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Mila?
    milakel Resident: ah, sorry. i'm a bit preoccupied, but enjoy being here :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, but its possible to be at many places at the same time, smiling wide
    milakel Resident: i'm ok... except one upset belly :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: upset belly.. hmmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have enjoyed yesterday and today about sun in Finland
    milakel Resident: ah, lovely
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: we have so little truely warm days (plus 28 celsius)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: can be calculated in two hands
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so ,
    milakel Resident: yes, 28 is very warm for suomi
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: this have been rare delicasy
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yeap
    milakel Resident: well, i prefer 20 :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Where are You from Mila?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I started to think You are also from here ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ??
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    milakel Resident: not quite :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not?
    milakel Resident: i've been to helsinki though
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ok
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, I think I go back to backyard to enjoy the sun
    Calvino Rabeni must fade out too
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: good bye all
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Byeee

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