2011.08.07 19:00 - Trust and Playing By (With or As) the Rules

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    Pema Pera: hi Calvino!
    sinequanon Sahara: Hello Calvino...Pems
    Pema Pera: hi Sinequanon!
    sinequanon Sahara: Pema
    Calvino Rabeni: Pema, sine good evening
    Pema Pera: good seeing you again, Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Likewise Pema
    Pema Pera: good morning from my side :-)
    Pema Pera: (back in Japan, after the PaB retreat in Canada)
    sinequanon Sahara: same here...:)
    Pema Pera: So Asia is in the majority here, so far!
    Dash Earthboy: hey y'all
    Pema Pera: or was . . .
    Pema Pera: hi Dash!
    sinequanon Sahara: thinks arent pretty scary in London right now...
    Dash Earthboy: Pema!
    sinequanon Sahara: Riots
    sinequanon Sahara: Hi Dash
    Pema Pera: yes, quite an amazing development, reminding me of the Paris suburbs a few years ago
    Dash Earthboy: Cal - long time no see
    Dash Earthboy: hi Sin?
    Dash Earthboy: something short i can call you by?
    sinequanon Sahara: Sine...Hello
    sinequanon Sahara: :)
    Dash Earthboy: ty sine
    sinequanon Sahara: i am often mistaken as the evil incarnate here :)
    Dash Earthboy: :)
    Pema Pera: ?
    Dash Earthboy: me too i believe :)
    sinequanon Sahara: was referiing to my name Pema
    Pema Pera wonders whethere there is an association he is not conscious of . . .
    sinequanon Sahara: its sine qua non...pretty silly of me to have adopted it actually
    Calvino Rabeni: What does that mean to you sine?
    Pema Pera: a nice name -- I think
    sinequanon Sahara: its often taken to mean something associated with sin
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: that didn't even occur to me
    sinequanon Sahara: its latin...for the the essential element or thing or whatever haha
    Calvino Rabeni: "an essential condition"
    sinequanon Sahara: yes
    Dash Earthboy: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Does it also have a "sin" meaning?
    Pema Pera: no, only cosin
    sinequanon Sahara: i have never came across one..
    Pema Pera: "sine" is without in Latin
    sinequanon Sahara: and sine is pronounced siney
    Dash Earthboy: isn't it also "out" in tennis?
    Dash Earthboy: out of bounds?
    sinequanon Sahara: not aware of that Dash
    Dash Earthboy: ok
    Dash Earthboy: i'm operating on memory
    Dash Earthboy: under a severe virus that is running rampant through this shelter for homeless in North Platte, NE
    Pema Pera: sorry I had to leave soon after we met yesterday, Sine. I'm curious, after what you told us briefly, what your world view is (if that is not toooo big a question :-)
    Pema Pera: hi Arch!
    Dash Earthboy: hey Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Dsh
    Dash Earthboy: gtsy
    sinequanon Sahara: world view ahum.....
    Pema Pera: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Pema, Cal, sinequanon
    sinequanon Sahara: hi Arch..
    sinequanon Sahara: that is too big a question Pema...it will force me to offer too many generalizations...which isnt fair
    Calvino Rabeni: I would like to say, generalizations are something we're all pretty well equipped to handle, for what it's worth
    Pema Pera: well, you can start with a small part :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: Pema....remember Maslov's heirarchy
    Pema Pera: like, your view of the material world
    Pema Pera: and in how far that is all there is
    Pema Pera: and if not, what else could there be
    Pema Pera: is that fair enough?
    sinequanon Sahara: umm let me start with science then...
    Pema Pera is all ears
    sinequanon Sahara: since you are physicist...btw i am not...
    sinequanon Sahara: but what do the physicists ultimately aim for....
    sinequanon Sahara: we started with electricity and magnetism...gravity ofcourse..
    sinequanon Sahara: then we had the weak and the strong forces...
    sinequanon Sahara: and then we got confused...too many forces to handle..let's start unifying them
    sinequanon Sahara: and thats a question to you...was it that some empirical evidence forced us to reach the conclusion that this unification is possible
    sinequanon Sahara: ...or was it preceded by some... let's say aesthetic impulse ...something deep with us...like a hard wired aspiration...

    Pema Pera: unification has been the driving force behind science from the very beginning -- with Galileo already who looked for universal properties of nature, but also already much earlier: with Aristotle trying to find universal patterns everywhere; and the presocratics even: all is fire, all is water, etc
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, I agree, Pema
    Calvino Rabeni: I tend to see it as an a-priori aesthetic value
    Calvino Rabeni: or possibly an expression of a natural dialectic
    Pema Pera: the difference between science and technology is unification drive versus "what works"
    Archmage Atlantis: perhaps tho
    Archmage Atlantis: unification is not the answer
    Pema Pera: priest versus medicine man -- as an analogy
    Pema Pera: Earth-heaven connection versus application
    Archmage Atlantis: pastor vs. shaman....ok
    Calvino Rabeni: By the way, I really like that Google News has *finally* separated the Science and Technology categories into separate sections
    Pema Pera: :-)
    sinequanon Sahara: now i see religion..or mysticism...or as however you may have it...doing essentialy the same thing
    sinequanon Sahara: thats my world view Pema
    Archmage Atlantis: Dane Dange
    sinequanon Sahara: the difference being it concerns with the world within us rather than the world outside us...
    Pema Pera: what about the "world inside"
    Pema Pera: do you view that differently from the material world
    Archmage Atlantis: In that I differ, sniequanon
    Pema Pera: or is it part of it
    Pema Pera: or is the outer part of the inner?
    Archmage Atlantis: that is inside us, is paired with the outside of us
    sinequanon Sahara: thats being too epistemological isnt it Pema...
    sinequanon Sahara: but yes its a part of it...the difference being its not mathematical
    Calvino Rabeni: One way of unifying would be, to start to break down that idea of there being an "inside" and an "outside" ... I think it's starting to happen and opening new doors for transdisciplinarity
    Archmage Atlantis: Looking up epistemological
    Dash Earthboy: hey Paradise
    Pema Pera: hi there Paradise!
    Pema Pera: Yes, Calvino, I agree: I think the distinction between inner and outer is often used as an excuse to compartmentalize unnecessarily
    Archmage Atlantis: Ah, the nature and scope of the limitations of knowledge
    Calvino Rabeni: The personal question is, I suppose "just what epistemic community (-ies) am I part of?"
    sinequanon Sahara: ok Pema..heres to the world...I feel like kid right now
    Paradise Tennant: smiles and waves all round and listens :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Para :)
    Pema Pera: oh, we all *should* feel like kids, Sine!
    Pema Pera: I certainly do
    Pema Pera: kids dare to ask the kind of questiosn that grownups forget
    Pema Pera: when I see a tree, the visual experience is out there, in front of me
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems like the trees or the traffic are as exhuberant or sulky or real as "I am"
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Archmage Atlantis: OMG, but here comes my study of religion
    Pema Pera: it doesn't feel like "inner" at all
    Archmage Atlantis: To be as a child
    Archmage Atlantis: Is to be as alive
    Archmage Atlantis: Eden would make it a haiku
    Pema Pera: space and time and awareness are three "conditions of possibility", I think, the sinequanons of all phenomena and all objects
    Pema Pera: so your name is perfect!
    Pema Pera: does that make sense?
    sinequanon Sahara: what you are aiming for here is very noble....
    sinequanon Sahara: also...it is difficult...
    Archmage Atlantis: And dangerous, sine
    Pema Pera: difficult for adults . . . not for children, I think
    sinequanon Sahara: i am recalling asimovs sci-fi story...the last question right now...
    sinequanon Sahara: its almost as dangerous...
    Pema Pera: we say "I have experience" but isn't it more correct to say that "experience has me"?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, or that culture "me-s"
    Archmage Atlantis: Asimov
    Archmage Atlantis: Robots and Empire
    Pema Pera: experience or awareness surely is the sinequanon of "me"
    sinequanon Sahara: no "the last question"
    Archmage Atlantis: What was the last question?
    sinequanon Sahara: how do you defy heat death of the universe...
    sinequanon Sahara: that was the question...
    sinequanon Sahara: the second law of thermodynamics...
    Archmage Atlantis: One does not.....one accepts
    Calvino Rabeni: More or less, what do you think of the idea that there is an "inside" and "outside" in the division of the world(s)
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Cal, there is
    Calvino Rabeni: I wasn't quite there, Arch, to asking if there IS such a division :)
    sinequanon Sahara: the problem really here...is once again the same...how do you achieve this unification... just saying it to yourself that it is...will not solve the problem...
    Paradise Tennant: isn't it already there ..no achieving required ?
    Archmage Atlantis: Or how does this planet achieve transendence
    Pema Pera: yes, only if nature already is unified can we hope to recognize it
    sinequanon Sahara: i believe we have to make some conscious effort Paradise...to achieve it
    Paradise Tennant: hmm or drop effort and and just see :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The achieving supposedly takes place in the knowing, not the thing(s) known

    Pema Pera smiles at Sine and Para, with a sense that both are right: you have to try and be aware of what we already know and see -- and then dare to let go and step off the beaten path, letting something new show itself, otherwise you'll never find a new unification
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at druth :)
    Dash Earthboy: the song says "there's nothing you can know that isn't known" doesn't it?
    Dash Earthboy: hey druth
    Pema Pera: nice, Dash!
    Pema Pera: hi Druth!
    Pema Pera: and hi Linda!
    sinequanon Sahara: yes ..unfortunately the veils of light are more blinding than the veils of dark....
    Archmage Atlantis: yea it does Dash
    sinequanon Sahara: they have to peeled like an onion skin
    druth Vlodovic: hi
    Pema Pera: but that's the fun of exploration, a mixture of trying hard and letting go
    Archmage Atlantis: That is a part
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at lucinda gtsy :))
    Pema Pera: like a dance
    Calvino Rabeni: "Veils of light" :)
    Dash Earthboy: hey Luc
    Lucinda Lavender: Hello all:)
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello sister, my Luci
    Calvino Rabeni notices the presence of observerm
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Dash Earthboy: right on Cal "veils of light" :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Observem....time to make a choice
    Paradise Tennant: smiles hiya observerm ..nice to see you .. will you sit with us :)
    Lucinda Lavender: glad to see you all;0
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    observerm Resident waves
    Pema Pera: hi Observem!
    Calvino Rabeni waves back
    Lucinda Lavender: any certain topics coming up tonight?
    Paradise Tennant: well we are talking of seeing what is there .. the hard way or the easy way :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Nine participant observers gathered together ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Is there an inside and an outside ... what about concepts of reality or religion being unified .. are there veils of light as well as darkness ...do we have a dialectic of trying hard and letting go ..
    Archmage Atlantis: I have dream, that one day
    Archmage Atlantis: I have a dream, that one day this planet will understand that it is important in the universe
    Archmage Atlantis: I have a dream that this galaxy will know is is the source of being
    Archmage Atlantis: I have a dream
    Pema Pera: and it may be neither hard nor easy :-)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles or the neither way :)
    Lucinda Lavender: Arch can you say more?
    sinequanon Sahara: so we need means...means to achieve this end...means thoroughly investigated and reified...and exercised...
    Dash Earthboy: yes, exercised
    sinequanon Sahara: take the example for yesterday....the mevlevi dance...heres one means for you...
    sinequanon Sahara: from..
    Archmage Atlantis: I also would really not like a bullet in the head....just saying
    Dash Earthboy: :) @ Arch
    Calvino Rabeni: Same here, under most foreseeable circumstances :)
    sinequanon Sahara: there always is an "outside" the "other" ...subconsciously existing in us...needing identification to be trashed out...
    Pema Pera: hi Santo!
    Archmage Atlantis: trashed,methinks, is thrashed
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at san :)
    Dash Earthboy: :)
    sinequanon Sahara: no trashed...
    sinequanon Sahara: because its an alien being...
    Dash Earthboy: hey San
    Archmage Atlantis: k
    Santoshima Resident: hey dash
    Pema Pera: hi Steve!
    Dash Earthboy: hey Stev
    Lucinda Lavender: thinking as I do about how each reality has some thing we project on to it...I like to think that that reality is happening on it's own tho...we add the view
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves
    Santoshima Resident: hi stevenaia
    Archmage Atlantis: Some are blind
    sinequanon Sahara: there was a guy who thought he was a grain...
    Archmage Atlantis: Blindness comes in many forms
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at stev :)
    druth Vlodovic: we all see something, but seeing is a delicate process
    Calvino Rabeni: We add the view, but having done so our human-constructed world carries it too
    Dash Earthboy: especially with macular degeneration druth
    druth Vlodovic: whoular degeneration?
    Lucinda Lavender: yes and the human construction includes many feelings and responses
    Lucinda Lavender: blood pressure for example
    Archmage Atlantis: Macular degeneration is not a word construct of a homeless person
    Dash Earthboy: macular dengeration can leave one seeing spots and/or fireworks that don't exist outside our eyes
    Dash Earthboy: sorry we're having a family crisis in the computer room at the shelter now
    druth Vlodovic: ty
    Archmage Atlantis: Dash, I undrstand
    Calvino Rabeni: ah, thanks Dash
    Pema Pera: sorry, have to get going
    Archmage Atlantis: a bit
    Pema Pera: good seeing you all today
    Santoshima Resident: bye Pema, gtsy
    Pema Pera: Good luck, Dash, sorry to hear that!
    Calvino Rabeni: Same, Pema, take care
    druth Vlodovic: have fun pema
    sinequanon Sahara: bye Pema
    Dash Earthboy: gtsy Pema
    Dash Earthboy: bye Pema
    Paradise Tennant: sorry to hear that dash
    Paradise Tennant: take care pema :)
    Dash Earthboy: just makes it difficult to reason in this session, y'know Paradise?
    Lucinda Lavender: bye Pema...
    Archmage Atlantis: Quakers used to be good....the Nixon took things over

    Dash Earthboy: yep, Arch I signed the petition in 1971 asking Nixon not to publicly refer to himself as a Quaker...such a lousy testimony
    sinequanon Sahara:

    there was a guy who thought he was a grain...so they treated him...he came back immediately after leaving the hospital
    so the doctor asked him whats wrong...
    he said..there's a chicken out there... right in the middle of the street...
    so the doctor said..ok ...but now you know that you are not a grain...so what's wrong..
    but does the chicken also know...replied the man...

    Dash Earthboy dies from laughing....
    Archmage Atlantis: Nixon was ahuman, not a demon
    Archmage Atlantis: I have met demons
    Archmage Atlantis: Not nice guys
    Archmage Atlantis: or girls, actually
    Dash Earthboy: good one Sine :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Nice, sine, that's a good variation on "Doc, my brother thinks he's a chicken" joke
    Archmage Atlantis: One chicken, one religion
    Archmage Atlantis: max, nix
    sinequanon Sahara: the chicken is the "other"
    sinequanon Sahara: so theres always a chicken...
    sinequanon Sahara: that doesnt know...
    sinequanon Sahara: so the question is this....who will inform the chicken?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that's the existential question sine, that what happens to us is co-constructed
    Calvino Rabeni: The limits on plans to "change my own thoughts"
    Archmage Atlantis: That is our job
    Archmage Atlantis: To inform the chicken
    Dash Earthboy: doesn't informing the chicken require us to go beyond "observing" as being?
    Lucinda Lavender: Luci has trouble understandin jokes sometimes...:)
    Archmage Atlantis: Luci, none of this is truely jokes
    Santoshima Resident: the inner chicken
    Lucinda Lavender: :) ok
    Dash Earthboy: :) @ San
    sinequanon Sahara: yes it does..it asks us to be more than mere observers
    Paradise Tennant: can someone .give a quick summary of our reasoning to date .. I am blinking :)
    Dash Earthboy: blink
    Archmage Atlantis: Agree, sinequanon....and I hope you pick a handle with less typing
    sinequanon Sahara: yeah a sily name :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Ok, Para
    sinequanon Sahara: sine is fine...
    Archmage Atlantis: In the beginning, the earth cooled
    Archmage Atlantis: then the dinosaurs came
    Dash Earthboy: and it rhymes sine
    Dash Earthboy: ooops
    Archmage Atlantis: Need more?
    Dash Earthboy: blush
    Calvino Rabeni: There's an art to the "gloss"
    Calvino Rabeni: Capturing some relevant facets of the conversation up to the present time
    Lucinda Lavender: Luci listens
    Calvino Rabeni: We're part of an ecology of intelligence
    Calvino Rabeni: some constructing, some deconstructing, some picking up the pieces and building nests, some laying eggs for the future
    Paradise Tennant: Para listens
    Dash Earthboy: emotional intelligence too Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes Dash
    Lucinda Lavender: some reacting and some not?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Dash Earthboy: :)
    sinequanon Sahara: it's very very complicated actually...
    sinequanon Sahara: i mean just to see...
    sinequanon Sahara: its not easy at all...

    “Some problems are so complex that you
    have to be highly intelligent and well informed
    just to be undecided about them.”


    Calvino Rabeni: Give it a try some time [... unifying ... defining answers ...]
    Calvino Rabeni: try deconstructing, taking ideas apart, someone will step forth and try to put them back together, but if you do the opposite, someone will take them apart ... often the very same someones
    Calvino Rabeni: as if there were a secret agreement at work to keep a balance within some unspoken range
    Dash Earthboy: nods
    Dash Earthboy: We should explore secret agreements in another session maybe soon?
    Calvino Rabeni: That is so abstract sounding ... someone will make it more concrete with an example or an anecdote from their life
    sinequanon Sahara: take the example of the grey eminence of cardinal Richelieu...
    Calvino Rabeni: That sounds good, Dash... secret agreements ... sounds pretty intriguing
    sinequanon Sahara: an hour whizzed past.....thats how difficult and consuming this is...
    Dash Earthboy: yep
    Lucinda Lavender: feels a little like marriage
    Lucinda Lavender: was thinking about them in regard to marriage just today
    Calvino Rabeni: How's that, Cinda?
    Lucinda Lavender: well things slip out of balance sometimes in terms of getting needs met...and then stuff gets said and things change
    Lucinda Lavender: the agreement seems to be to keep trying
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: K, I can do that.....I was in a relationship for 19 years....and another for 14 years....and alone for 5 years.......yet all those ppl are still a part of my life here on this planet
    Archmage Atlantis: We do not, never, ever, abandon each other
    Calvino Rabeni nods

    Lucinda Lavender: I made an agreement to attend the firepit in my back yard so will go for now:)be well all...
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Lucinda
    sinequanon Sahara: buy Lucinda
    Santoshima Resident: goodnight lucinda
    Dash Earthboy: Rules that I agreed to dictate I must sign off now....gtsy everyone...pax et bonum
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Cinda
    Santoshima Resident: pax to you, dash
    sinequanon Sahara: Bye Dash
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care Dash
    Calvino Rabeni: get well
    Archmage Atlantis: Who is accepting the recording of this session?
    sinequanon Sahara: i just lost my av...where am i...
    sinequanon Sahara: ah ok
    Paradise Tennant: take care dash
    Paradise Tennant: nite luci
    Calvino Rabeni: I have the recording, Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Ty Cal
    Paradise Tennant: smiles still blinking :)
    Archmage Atlantis: And, sinequanon, if you see this text, you are still the circle
    Paradise Tennant: really just a dexription of the working of karma in a way :) no ?
    sinequanon Sahara: the circle of oroboros...
    sinequanon Sahara: the snake eating its own tail :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Blessings, Namaste, Shalom, Allah Akbar....time for me to find a place to dance
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite arch :) thank you :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Arch
    druth Vlodovic: good hunting
    Santoshima Resident: bye arch
    sinequanon Sahara: happy jitterbugging Arch
    Calvino Rabeni: There was a man who worked in organizational settings ... everyone thought leadership was a very important topic and decided to study and go into it, to study how groups worked, to make thinking and decision making "work" better ... always looking for ways to optimize things, and making theories that became more and more complicated
    Calvino Rabeni: one day he had a change in priority about what was really important in that whole endeavor
    Calvino Rabeni: it was, friendships of trust between individuals
    Calvino Rabeni: which formed the healthy "base" for every other complicated thing that happened
    Paradise Tennant:the world , our economies , our famlies, our entirety is based on and an act of trust :) ... trust is the basic economic unit not money really
    Calvino Rabeni: ...and if it weakens ..
    druth Vlodovic: we get rules
    Calvino Rabeni: and riots
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: that's very Lao Tzu,  druth, I like it
    sinequanon Sahara: any one from London here..or close vicinity..
    Calvino Rabeni: No
    sinequanon Sahara: my twitter tells me things are bad there right now...
    Paradise Tennant: things do not seem to exist without their opposites ..maybe doubt .. turmoil and the like are a way of better defining trust

    Two Guardians stand outside the temple door ... their names are Chaos and Confusion.

    sinequanon Sahara: rioting...looting...
    Calvino Rabeni: I've been out and about in the city recently, just marveling about how well this one seems to work compared to others that are shaking apart in one way or another
    Calvino Rabeni: and that it's based on trust, and perhaps the "rules" safeguard that trust
    sinequanon Sahara: heres a nice quote...
    sinequanon Sahara: World Stocks Fall Lower In August As Neoliberalism Dies And Neoauthoritarianism Is Born Out Of A European Default Union
    Calvino Rabeni blinks
    Paradise Tennant: and it means exactly ?
    sinequanon Sahara: exactly what Calvino has been saying
    sinequanon Sahara: we have very complicated theories...economic theories..but no trust...
    sinequanon Sahara: ah well trust is a "big" word...
    sinequanon Sahara: doesn't even apply here...
    Paradise Tennant: smiles if there was truly no trust we would not be sititng here
    Calvino Rabeni: here's a quote relating that, and what druth said earlier about rules
    Calvino Rabeni:

    When the great Way is lost
    There is ‘benevolence and rectitude’.
    When cleverness appears There is ‘great ritual’.
    When the family is not harmonious,
    There is ‘filial piety’.
    When the state is in chaos
    There are ‘loyal’ ministers.
    Eliminate the ‘sage’: forget ‘wisdom’
    People will be a hundred times better off.
    Eliminate ‘benevolence’: forget ‘rectitude’,
    And people will have filial piety.
    Eliminate cleverness: forget profit,
    And there’ll be less thieves and rogues.
    Superficial things are insufficient,
    What is needed is all-embracing.
    Exhibit the unadorned.
    Hold fast to the un-carved block.


    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Roger
    Paradise Tennant: hiya roger :)
    Santoshima Resident: hi roger
    sinequanon Sahara: that was nice Calvin...
    Roger Ormenthal: Apologies for stepping on people. I have bad control over the avi tonight. Maybe a bandwidth problem. Hi everyone.

    druth Vlodovic: I find it funny in sl, how organizations which create rules in order to solve problems seem to accelerate difficulties
    Calvino Rabeni: How does that work, I wonder
    sinequanon Sahara: seems to be the problem with all utopias
    Santoshima Resident: seems to be the problem with fixed concepts about people
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at san :) nothing is really fixed it seems :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Is it because the concepts are not comprehensive enough?
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, maybe the "rules" and procedures don't account for people's motivations?
    druth Vlodovic: quite the oposite
    druth Vlodovic: How do you make something that can encompass a single human?
    Calvino Rabeni: You can't, but, we manage to stay on the road while driving
    Paradise Tennant: when we are inifinte in a way :)
    Calvino Rabeni: So the rules are tolerable as long as nothing imporant arises outside their purview
    Paradise Tennant: lol was just thinking of the traffic chaos with out rules
    Calvino Rabeni: like a forest fire I observed, where people pulled off the road to get a better look
    druth Vlodovic: the rules need to be narrow so that almost everythiong is outside of them
    Calvino Rabeni: Traffic rules, regulations and control are a pretty interesting area of study, actually.
    Calvino Rabeni: it could be a microcosm that emcompasses all these other complex issues in a concrete way.

    Editor's note:  I found this article thought-provoking: 

    Santoshima Resident: i've goto go / ok to offer a musical interlude?
    Calvino Rabeni sure
    Santoshima Resident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVB5h9tGM58
    Santoshima Resident: see you soon; shantih ~
    Paradise Tennant: thanks san :)
    Paradise Tennant: I should go too . early morning .. thank you all for the interesting conversation :)
    druth Vlodovic: sorry, I started to watch but then went into a trance or something :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Aided by the video?
    sinequanon Sahara: need to go everyone...
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, sine
    sinequanon Sahara: Bye Everyone...
    Roger Ormenthal: Imposed rules have limited effect. The secret is a community/world of people who are internally well organized and of high consciousness. So it comes down to consciousness raising and spiritual enlightment.
    sinequanon Sahara: until tomorrow..

    Calvino Rabeni: That's well-stated Roger
    Calvino Rabeni: Though one question is, how those people came to be internally well organized .. was it by following a scaffolding of rules?
    stevenaia Michinaga: Night all
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night, Stevenaia :)
    druth Vlodovic: 'night steve
    druth Vlodovic: you need basic ideas in common
    Calvino Rabeni: Ideas and customs, perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: creatively applied principles
    druth Vlodovic: like "protect children" covers a whole host of attitudes and rules
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Roger Ormenthal: I would say through learning lessons through trial and error and self-reflection and self-development. In my particular world view, that would be over many lifetimes.
    Roger Ormenthal: (learning)
    Calvino Rabeni: Self-reflection and development ... that is the individual's end of the relationship
    Calvino Rabeni: without help from a community of practice
    Calvino Rabeni: might be lonely
    Calvino Rabeni: aye there's the rub
    druth Vlodovic: even that is a problem of commonality, in the west we value personal accomlishment over community accomplishment
    Roger Ormenthal: Life is hierarchical and the growth of the individual and community are interlinked, so there is no loneliness.
    Calvino Rabeni: They are indeed
    Calvino Rabeni: agree, druth
    druth Vlodovic: in small isolated groups a common balance can be decided upon and promoted
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: These are like local niches in the overall ecology of humanity
    Calvino Rabeni: just thinking what a wide range of "products" and "experiments" all those communities provide
    druth Vlodovic: but in an international community of several billion we find ourselves feeling lost and conflicted a lot
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems to me the international community of billions, hardly exists
    Calvino Rabeni: or perhaps it does in some rudimentary ways?
    Calvino Rabeni: To be fair I suppose the question should be .. in what ways does it exist now
    druth Vlodovic: but we all effect one another in different degrees
    druth Vlodovic: you might need a different word than "community"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, or allow a broader definition for "community"
    druth Vlodovic: even the introduction of a possibility has an effect on others
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, one "community identity" for the whole human race could be ... "hey, we rule, we've taken over the planet ..."
    druth Vlodovic: hardly universal
    Calvino Rabeni: Coexisting with, "damn, we're messing it up and can't do much about that"
    druth Vlodovic: lol, that too
    druth Vlodovic: it can be a shock to hear somone talk who simply has never considered an idea I think is central to the human condition
    Calvino Rabeni smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: I've run into that
    Calvino Rabeni: Does an example come to mind?
    Roger Ormenthal: Sorry, must go, goodnight and peace.
    druth Vlodovic: I get nervous when people agree with me too much,
    Calvino Rabeni: Fly well, Roger, good night
    druth Vlodovic: 'night roger
    druth Vlodovic: I think "Am I explaining myself improperly, or am I surrounding myself only with like-minded individuals?"
    Calvino Rabeni: How much disagreement do you like ?
    druth Vlodovic: as long as it is thoughtful I can take a fair amount
    druth Vlodovic: though I've learned (slowly) not to carry it too far
    Calvino Rabeni nods

    druth Vlodovic: An example, I missed that earlier
    Calvino Rabeni: Clashes of basic value systems are difficult
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I'm still trying to come up with a good example
    druth Vlodovic: when somone first introduced me to the idea that unbridled greed may be a positive moral force I had a moment, I'll tell you
    Calvino Rabeni: Wasn't sure whether you meant a values distinction, or something else
    Calvino Rabeni: ah yes :)
    druth Vlodovic: it is easier to come up with the learning than the lesson I got it from
    Calvino Rabeni: "the learning" ?
    druth Vlodovic: and when a frined started talking about how many "head of beef" he had on a farm I learned something about ways of seeing living things
    druth Vlodovic: well, the lesson is learned but the class is forgotten
    druth Vlodovic: the idea?
    Calvino Rabeni: it seems to me, the feeling of confrontation or puzzlement prevails, with many of these things, which are hard to bring to an understanding that seems well-formulated
    Calvino Rabeni: because they are about the boundaries of one's system, perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: or involve "human condition" issues that are not well defined, or not "resolvable"
    Calvino Rabeni: or so-called wicked problems
    druth Vlodovic: the "unthinkable"
    Calvino Rabeni: Unthinkable ... yes, those stretch one's framework to some degree
    druth Vlodovic: yes, we have a problem in canada with a thing called the "sex-offender registry"
    druth Vlodovic: you can get on it in any number of ways
    Calvino Rabeni: What is the outline of that issue?
    druth Vlodovic: and they are thinking of making it availible to the public
    druth Vlodovic: instead of just the police
    druth Vlodovic: to object to this is tantamount to coming out in support of violent pedophilia
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah
    druth Vlodovic: when a teen can get on it by having an erotic pic of his legal girlfriend
    Calvino Rabeni: Except people get on that list for plenty of reasons, including nonviolent ones,
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    druth Vlodovic: it is applying a stringent rule to a complex situation
    druth Vlodovic: in contrast a speed limit is a strange law in application
    Calvino Rabeni: A good example
    druth Vlodovic: a police officer will often issue a ticket based on how you act when pulled over
    druth Vlodovic: and rarely applies the full amount
    Calvino Rabeni: This is a true complex issue, when you look at the different reasons the "rule" might be stringent (or not)
    druth Vlodovic: often falsifying the document to say you were going slower than you were,
    druth Vlodovic: but this is accepted and legal
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, I've run into that
    druth Vlodovic: it helps them maintain control and upholds the spirit of the law
    Calvino Rabeni: That's one reason for .. ?
    druth Vlodovic: which is "don't drive like a maniac and endanger everyone"
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah yes

    Calvino Rabeni: That's a good common-sense way of saying what is really at stake
    Calvino Rabeni: the speed limit is a good proxy for "safe behavior"
    Calvino Rabeni: and one people can't really disagree about
    Calvino Rabeni: much
    Calvino Rabeni: because it sounds completly physical
    druth Vlodovic: and we go back to "trust"
    druth Vlodovic: the government lets the police act like this because they trust the officer's judgements
    Calvino Rabeni: people trust the enforcement to a reasonable degree
    Calvino Rabeni: There are two organizations that have ways to do surveys in many countries
    Calvino Rabeni: they use different methods and assumptions
    Calvino Rabeni: one measures how "corrupt" a country is, overall
    Calvino Rabeni: and another, how much people "trust" each other
    Calvino Rabeni: then they rank the countries
    Calvino Rabeni: and not surprisingly, the rankings match pretty well
    Calvino Rabeni: even though the measurements are different and the domains of experience are different
    druth Vlodovic: "once burnt twice shy"
    Calvino Rabeni: "as above, so below" :)  (or is it the other way around?)
    Calvino Rabeni: "trust in god, but tie your camel"
    druth Vlodovic: both I think :)
    druth Vlodovic: but also if trust is a stupid idea then you don't need to act in a trustworthy manner
    Calvino Rabeni: The traffic regulations are to a large degree self-enforcing
    Calvino Rabeni: in that it's pretty dangerous to drive like a maniac
    druth Vlodovic: I was thinking about Vlad Dracul, who killed thousands in horrible ways but could put a gold cup at each fountain and not see it stolen
    druth Vlodovic: a bad example perhaps
    druth Vlodovic: people who drive like maniacs make others drive more dangerously, you get nervous and swerve a lot, speed up so you aren't swamped by speeders
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    druth Vlodovic: in ontario for instance, you never give up right of way because it is not expected, and therefore dangerous
    Calvino Rabeni: In a way, "maniac" is defined relative to expectations
    druth Vlodovic: people can't predict your actions
    Calvino Rabeni: right
    Calvino Rabeni: like driving too slow
    druth Vlodovic: so when I went to PEI I got badly confused a few times
    Calvino Rabeni: where's that?
    druth Vlodovic: small province, just north of Nova Scotia, the province the last retreat was held

    Calvino Rabeni: What happened there?
    druth Vlodovic: courtesy
    druth Vlodovic: people stopped to let me go, or stopped to let me cross the street
    druth Vlodovic: confusing
    Calvino Rabeni: took a while to adapt?
    druth Vlodovic: my first instinct was to look and see if something had happened to their car
    druth Vlodovic: ah, i should go, it's getting late
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care, drive safely :)
    druth Vlodovic: 'night cal, it was good to talk to you
    Calvino Rabeni: Same, druth
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
    druth Vlodovic: I don't have that choice, I'm teaching my daughter to drive =8-O
    Calvino Rabeni: Nice
    druth Vlodovic: cya :)

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