2011.10.02 19:00 - Participation

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvin Rabeni.

    Bertrum Resident: hey Cal-
    Bertrum Resident: hi Bruce-
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bert. Hey, Cal.
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Bruce, Bertrum :)
    Calvino Rabeni: SL seems a little out of sort, do you notice something?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Santoshima !
    Santoshima Resident: hello Cal and everyone
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, San.
    Bertrum Resident: Hi San
    Santoshima Resident: hey
    Bruce Mowbray: omg
    Santoshima Resident: omg, bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: I can't get the cushion to cooperate -- and it threw me up in the air with my arms up, for a while.
    Bruce Mowbray: seems to be better on this cushion.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Dash!
    Dash Earthboy: hey y'all
    Calvino Rabeni: Hiya Dash
    Bertrum Resident: hi Dash-
    Dash Earthboy: 's up tonight?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not much .. just got here, and second life was acting laggy weird for a while, as I saw it
    Calvino Rabeni: not it seems to be settling down
    Dash Earthboy: hey Aph
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Aphro
    Bertrum Resident: hi Aph-
    Bruce Mowbray: i also noticed the laggy weird, but thought that was my video card - which burned out earlier today.
    Dash Earthboy: yah, the lag here comes and goes like ... well, the ocean is more regular :\
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Aph!
    Santoshima Resident: hey aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: mmmm nice group!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Dash
    Calvino Rabeni: the card burned partly out, but still sort of works, Bruce?
    Aphrodite Macbain: San
    Santoshima Resident: yes?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Just saying Hi san
    Bruce Mowbray: Nope, it burned completely out -- so i removed it and am now videoing from the motherboard.
    Santoshima Resident: oh
    Santoshima Resident: hello
    Dash Earthboy: welcome to my world Bruce :)
    Aphrodite Macbain has no concept if what "videoing from the motherboard" means
    Bruce Mowbray: Ha! Thanks! --- Happy to be there, here, where-ever.
    Santoshima Resident: nor do i
    Bruce Mowbray: Doesn't matter - - It's working.
    Dash Earthboy: lots of fun using motherboard graphics chips usually (NOT) :\
    Aphrodite Macbain: whew
    Santoshima Resident: oh good
    Dash Earthboy: are yours Intel, Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: but my trying to make 3-D computer graphics is going to take a whole lot longer now. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, Intel, I think.
    Bruce Mowbray: but thevideo card that died was Gforce.
    Aphrodite Macbain 's head spins
    Dash Earthboy: yah
    Dash Earthboy: Gforce is good for SL
    --BELL--


    Bruce Mowbray: Let's talk about something less spinny. . . or perhaps spinny in another direction.
    Dash Earthboy: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: shsshhh
    Dash Earthboy: * just chewing my Cheerios covered with hazelnut-flavored coconut milk and watching the wheels go round and round :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: spinning?
    Bruce Mowbray loves Cheerios as a snack -- without milk, though.
    Dash Earthboy: i just had to let the merry-go-round go
    Santoshima Resident: a few product placement notations tonight
    Dash Earthboy: specifically multi-grain C-os
    Bruce Mowbray: i have been exploring the notion of "participation" in the 99-Days project - - - and yesterday morning in Chicago i found this: http://hermitdog.com/Chess.jpg
    Aphrodite Macbain grins at San
    Calvino Rabeni: You were doing some artful projects with the 3D graphics, Bruce.. I think participation is a great topic too
    Bruce Mowbray: "Participation" - as I am defining it - means that everything is involved with everything else in some way. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: and every chess piece reflects every other one -- as well as the ceiling, and the glass case, and the photographer (me).
    Bruce Mowbray: !
    Bruce Mowbray: it almost took my breath away to find such a perfect demonstration of what I'vce been trying to say in words.
    Santoshima Resident: gorgeous
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a good example of the "Indra's Net" metaphor
    Santoshima Resident: yes
    Santoshima Resident: excellent
    Aphrodite Macbain: that's beautiful Bruce. Where did you find it? Is it a big sculpture?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Indra's net Cal?
    Santoshima Resident: indra's jewelled net
    Bruce Mowbray: i found it at the Art Institute of Chicago -- and it's actually quite small -- maybe a foot and one-half square.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes! Indra"s Net!!!
    Bruce Mowbray: That;s IT! Thanks San!
    Santoshima Resident: ty to Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Indra's Net is a metaphor for reality in which every part has a reflection of every other part within it
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder how it has been represented
    Santoshima Resident: see pg 17/ The Mirror of Yoga by Richard Freeman
    Santoshima Resident: sorry i don't have a scan
    Aphrodite Macbain: easy for U to say...
    Santoshima Resident: worth getting
    Calvino Rabeni: This one evokes our intersubjective nature - http://www.calresco.org/wp/indra.jpg

    indra.jpg

    Bertrum Resident: Bye eyveryone.
    Santoshima Resident: bye bertrum
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'lll see if I can find it in the library
    Aphrodite Macbain: Sounds like an Escher drawing sort of
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Aph, Escher seems 'hip' to this reflection stuff. . . but also the the possible ethical implications of it.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I would think it might become quite claustrophobic feeling
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'd want to see beyond the reflections
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: open a window
    Bruce Mowbray: What could possibly be beyond the reflections, Aph -- and I don't mean to sound condescending by asking that.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think the idea is it's reflections all the way down, but, they aren't flat
    Bruce Mowbray hopes to hear more about the Vancouver gallery from Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: There is an exhibition at the Vancouver Art Gallery that feels like that.
    Aphrodite Macbain: You walkthrough a maze w/o knowing the way. visually. The only way to find your way through the maze made up of glass is to touch the sides
    Aphrodite Macbain: Your eyes dont help
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's quite frightening
    Calvino Rabeni: It might make the idea feel better to think that each place gives a unique character to the wholeness, so it doesn't seem just like endless copies
    Aphrodite Macbain: OK - thanks Cal
    Aphrodite Macbain: It sounds a bit like fractals
    Aphrodite Macbain: each reproducing a smaller version of the previous shape
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. We depend so much on vision - - It might be a useful exploration to experience a setting where vision would not help.
    Santoshima Resident: needing to sweep up some virtual sawdust over at the building site ... please excuse me ~ good night all
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
    Aphrodite Macbain: wear a mask San
    Calvino Rabeni: Fractals yes ... actually I have to confess I've always found fractal images disquieting
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes?

    I didn't get a chance to reply directly ... 

    Calvino Rabeni: Good night San
    Dash Earthboy: g'nite San
    Aphrodite Macbain: nite San
    Bruce Mowbray: Turning off our visual ways of "knowing" the world is a sort of metaphor for turning off our conceptual ways of knowing the world.
    Bruce Mowbray: G'night, San!
    Aphrodite Macbain: we conceive visually?
    Bruce Mowbray: absolutely, we conceive visually.
    Aphrodite Macbain: we understand things visually?
    Bruce Mowbray: Think of a cube.
    Bruce Mowbray: Now, what is that?
    Aphrodite Macbain: hmm. I certainly do but I always found that a narrow way of seeing.
    Bruce Mowbray: Was that not a visual conception for you?
    --BELL--

    Dash Earthboy: ssshhh


    Aphrodite Macbain: I wish I could THINK abstractly and mathematically
    Aphrodite Macbain: but I imagine/conceive visually which I think might be limiting
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Aph, there are definitely limits to visual knowing. . . (my point). But you artists have it way over the rest of us. . .
    Calvino Rabeni: Visual is an important pervasive way of knowing for humans, although lately, scientific research is finding that visual perception is an evolutionary development based on space and movement
    Calvino Rabeni: so the people who think of the world with feeling and body sensing can take some comfort in that
    Aphrodite Macbain: makes sense. Hunting, gathering, fighting
    Bruce Mowbray: Artists "see" in diverse ways. . . not just in order to identify an "object."
    Bruce Mowbray: That's why I LOVE to visit art galleries -- even though I'm not an artist.
    Calvino Rabeni: I love having dreams in which I'm in art galleries
    Aphrodite Macbain: Artists create ways of connecting to the world - wheether its visual, musical, physical (dance), linguistically
    Bruce Mowbray: Body-sensing -- OH YES! And it took me many decades to appreciate that.
    Calvino Rabeni nods
    Bruce Mowbray nods, also.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, I am becoming very interested in dance and how the body can move through, enveolpe and feel its way through space
    Calvino Rabeni: To appreciate, or participate, is at root about body sense and movement
    Calvino Rabeni nods to Aph about that
    Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful, Aph!
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. very physical isn't it?
    Bruce Mowbray: To participate through dance - - with all that is in one's environment -- and beyond.
    Bruce Mowbray: amazing.
    Aphrodite Macbain: But there must be a joy in the non physical - the perfection, the aesthetics of mathematics for instance. Like poetry
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure there are non-physical poetics ... just subtle physical ones. Studies of metaphors are also showing the importance of the body being in their basic meanings
    Dash Earthboy: hey stev
    Calvino Rabeni: More and more studies show the links of movement and knowing
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves
    Bruce Mowbray listens for more.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, steve.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Cal. Can you give me examples?
    Calvino Rabeni: for instance what people learn has to do with how they hold something with their hands
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh
    Aphrodite Macbain: I love the way Japanese people offer you things with both hands. it feels like a respectful offering
    Aphrodite Macbain: People hold bunches of flowers differently
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Stevenaia
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Giving is also an opportunity for the giver.
    Aphrodite Macbain smiles at Bruce
    Aphrodite Macbain: a respectful offering even if  it's just change for a dollar

    Calvino Rabeni: That's an aspect of participation too
    Calvino Rabeni: If one learns something while holding the body immobile and breath shallow, it will have one quality ... if one moves and breathes freely it will have another quality, maybe a freer and more inspiring one, and that will be part of its apparent "nature" -- because that's the map of it one made while coming to know it.

    Aphrodite Macbain: are you saying that most metaphors refer to the body in some way cal?

    Calvino Rabeni: I think yes Bruce, we can also understand "seeing" as a kind of giving to the thing seen
    Aphrodite Macbain: appreciating...
    Bruce Mowbray: appreciating the appearance -- yes, Aph, good point there.
    Aphrodite Macbain: though I really dont understand what that means... appreciating the appearance
    Bruce Mowbray: Giving something of ourselves to the thing we see. . . a wonderful idea, Cal.
    Calvino Rabeni: A great number of metaphors do refer to the body, implicitly. And in terms of neuroscience, it looks like, to "see" something is to activate the internal responses of interacting with it physically, grasping it, moving to it, in relationship to it. The act of perception is an act of possible participation.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.. I suppose that "appreciating the appearance" means different things to different people.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi lucy
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Luci! Welcome home form the retreat!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Luci. Still have yur cup of tea I see
    Calvino Rabeni: Probably Bruce, but also, well, we're all humans and sort of work the same basic ways, with some personal variations
    Lucinda Lavender: Thanks:)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Cinda
    Bruce Mowbray: for sure, Cal.
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi all:)
    Bruce Mowbray: Today I found myself appreciating some incredibly subtle things . . . and find it hard to think others would find appreciation in those same things. . . although they are appreciating things that I do not.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it is really hard to tell objectively, how much we have in common. If we were 1% different, our attentions would focus on that 1% and make as much as we could of it
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    --BELL--


    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, due to lag, I missed Bruce's interesting comment .. I wouldn't make that assumption Bruce, but I agree it's hard to communicate the subtleties in detail. Although I would love to hear about them. In fact this might be one reason artists and poets are important
    Aphrodite Macbain thinks about this more. I would guess that when 3 people go for a walk, each would notice different things. Would that mean that we dont have much in common? What makes us notice (and appreciate) some things and not others?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I thin it is because we have learned to look for different things
    Bruce Mowbray: Do we need to have it "it common" in order to appreciate others' appreciations?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it wouldn't be hard to get a feeling for whether one's companions were tuned into their environment and enjoying it
    Aphrodite Macbain: in the worls. Value things differently
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes but could I get the same feeling? I would have to point something out to the person.
    Calvino Rabeni: Well if we have a vast amount in common anyway, and only small individual differences, then the commonalities are already available to serve as the ground for sharing of knowing the world
    Aphrodite Macbain: for them to appreciate and notice it.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose we have more in common than we are different
    Aphrodite Macbain: But I find myself pointing things out to people that I see and value, and that they do not even notice
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Aph, me too.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps our senses are tuned to diffeeernt things
    Bruce Mowbray: in fact, your beautiful painting of plants help me notice things I'd not seen before.
    Aphrodite Macbain: so back to appreciating the appeance makes good sense here. You start to see things differentlye
    Bruce Mowbray: Art, I feel, cannot help but be ethical.
    Aphrodite Macbain: The value of artists
    Calvino Rabeni: Another line of science lately gives a picture that we have a social mind and an individual mind, which aren't that much aware of each other, and that the social mind is sort of the default thinking, so the "human at rest" in the lowest activation state uses it, while individual mind ddifferentiates the self, which takes some work, and creates somewhat of an illusion of separation and distinctiveness
    Lucinda Lavender: the senses give some information...ahmmminteresting...
    Aphrodite Macbain: wow. Is this somehow located in different parts of the brain Cal?
    Aphrodite Macbain: where can I read more?
    Aphrodite Macbain: how much of the social mind and an individual mind, is shaped by experience and how much by genetics?
    Calvino Rabeni: I have a bunch of links Aph, to scientific papers
    Bruce Mowbray: One learned "social mind" in order to 'survive' in society -- but individual mind might be another thing altogether.
    Lucinda Lavender: I do not know the answer to this question Aph...but it is an interesting question....
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm very interested...
    Calvino Rabeni: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Toward+socially+inspired+social+neuroscience
    Calvino Rabeni: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:bTPV_Dk5pxEJ:scholar.google.com/

    Lucinda Lavender: Luci knows whe spent her early years focussing on sensory data but has grown older and developed more intuition
    Bruce Mowbray: Wow! There are some great links to check out later.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Cal
    Bruce Mowbray: Trust intuition -- a major learning.
    Dash Earthboy: thanks Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Bruce
    Lucinda Lavender: or at least that is how it has seemed
    Aphrodite Macbain: Social cognitive neuro science
    Bruce Mowbray wonders if very young children have intuition. . . as we understand it.
    Lucinda Lavender: I think so
    Aphrodite Macbain: I want to retuern as a neuroscientist
    Dash Earthboy: i believe it was intuition that helped me avoid bad medicine as a child
    Calvino Rabeni: It's amazing the conceptual changes in the studies of mind and knowing ... in the last 10 years, emotion, imagination and intuition have become not just respectable, but almost foundational
    Aphrodite Macbain: I gather most of the retreatrs are intuitive thinkers...
    Lucinda Lavender: some have woken and told there parents things about me that they would not have known
    Dash Earthboy: my son seemed to have good intuition (instincts?) too as a child
    --BELL--


    Aphrodite Macbain wonders how intuition is developed
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think it;s a part of us that developes in due time
    Calvino Rabeni: But, Bruce, that intellectual track to those topics, which I admit seem subtle, came via "participation"
    Dash Earthboy: gtsy'all
    Aphrodite Macbain: YES!
    Dash Earthboy: pax et bonum
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! dash
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Dash. Good to see you again!
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Dash
    Lucinda Lavender: bye Dash
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder whether it is intuition or the unconscious that informs us
    Lucinda Lavender: sounds like a good question for Maxine too:)
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: Surely, intuition is largely informed by the unconscious. . . (or is that SUBconscious?)
    Lucinda Lavender: wondering what she would say to the question
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is that intuition? Or experience?
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a two way street .. conscious activities prime the unconscious and can affect it's function ... that's even true of the brain .. attitudes and intentions can get wrapped up into the split second functioning of the brain
    Calvino Rabeni: just like Indra's Net
    Aphrodite Macbain smiles
    Aphrodite Macbain: It makes sense b/c I can imagine the shape of a net
    Lucinda Lavender: I noticed that having children and animals to care and be respoinsibility for increased dreams that were informing
    Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting Cinda
    Lucinda Lavender: responsible
    Calvino Rabeni: Reductionism doesn't really make sense, when the actions of the social setting and the intentional mind affect the micro function of the brain, even perhaps to a DNA level, and the brain in turn affects what the mind can think, how an individual can know, and relate socially
    Aphrodite Macbain: wonder why
    Lucinda Lavender: that caring gave me dreams
    Calvino Rabeni: So you can "ask" for a dream or an intuition
    Calvino Rabeni: or "want' it to be a certain way .. and that can influence it, though perhaps not reliably and mechanically
    Lucinda Lavender: if you care I think you may not need to ask
    Bruce Mowbray: I prefer to "invite" a dream or intuition -- subtle difference. . . .
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that's a good difference
    stevenaia Michinaga: night all
    Lucinda Lavender: I never ask for them...just notice
    Calvino Rabeni: subtleties probably do matter
    Aphrodite Macbain: When I want to wake up at a certain time, I usually do. I bang my head on the pillow 7 times and i wake up at 7!! Go figure
    Calvino Rabeni: heh, that's subtle :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Steve
    Lucinda Lavender: night steve
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh my. Way too late for this sleepy hermit. Got to nod off now. THANKS, everyone!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Nite Steve, night all. Time for dinner
    Lucinda Lavender: take care Bruce:)
    Bruce Mowbray: Good night!
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
    Lucinda Lavender: good eve Aph:)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Calvino. Stimulating as always. CU tomorrow
    Aphrodite Macbain: Nite Luci, Bruce
    Aphrodite Macbain: Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: And dream well Aphro
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Lucinda Lavender: yes....sweet dreams

     

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