2011.10.10 07:00 - The Thorny Ground

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Alfred Kelberry, Eliza Madrigal, iwandertoo Resident, Korel Laloix,  oO0Oo Resident, Santoshima Resident and myself

    Samúð as rock star :)

    Zen Arado: Hi sam :)
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Zen
    Zen Arado: you have a new look
    Zen Arado: nice
    oO0Oo Resident: Yes... was experimenting for ART-AS_CHAIR-ity, but didn't finish in time
    Zen Arado: it takes time for these projects
    Zen Arado: all right if you have the time
    Zen Arado: if had a full time job Iwouldn't spend much time in here I think
    Zen Arado: though it would be a way to relax I guess
    oO0Oo Resident: and is it... relaxing?
    Zen Arado: hmmm...maybe not
    Zen Arado: stimulating perhaps
    Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen, Hi oooO0Oooo
    Zen Arado: that's complicated to type :)
    Eliza Madrigal: fun, too
    Zen Arado: oo0O0oo
    Zen Arado: that right?
    Eliza Madrigal: Samúð, you are like a rock star today, with Zen and I in grey like backdrop :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Zen, similar... your way looks fun to type also
    Zen Arado: yeh
    Zen Arado: thanks Eliza :(
    Zen Arado: I do seem to like grey in SL
    Eliza Madrigal: RL too?
    Zen Arado: hmmm...have grey trousers I see
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: but blue shirt
    Zen Arado: with beetroot stain I notice
    oO0Oo Resident: Imalol
    Zen Arado: beetroot is lethal for clothes
    Eliza Madrigal: well at least you are eating healthy
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: it's too late
    Zen Arado: should have started 60 years ago
    Eliza Madrigal: me too
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Santo
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Susan
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Santoshima :)
    Zen Arado: healthily..should be (sorry..so pedantic I am)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Susan :)
    Santoshima Resident: goodmorning
    Zen Arado: Hi Santo
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Zen Arado: Hi Susan :)
    Eliza Madrigal: wow, Santo dramatic as well :)
    Santoshima Resident: this is dress up day
    Zen Arado: yeh we'll go home and change Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Zen Arado: it is?
    Zen Arado: thanksgiving or something?
    Eliza Madrigal looks in her inventory for trouble she could put on
    Santoshima Resident: maybe, "or something"
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Korel

    My problem with Christian friend:

    Zen Arado: I have a problem with a RL friend
    Korel Laloix: Osiyo
    Zen Arado: Hi Korel
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Korel :)
    Santoshima Resident: hi korel
    Santoshima Resident: what's happening, zne?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, sorry to hear that Zen, want to talk about it?
    Santoshima Resident: zen
    Zen Arado: a friend I used to work with years ago
    Zen Arado: we keep in contact by phone
    Zen Arado: he is a Christian and I usd to be too
    Zen Arado: but he keeps reminding me of this and trying to get (me) back on the 'right path'
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: he never listens to anything I sy about how I am on a different tack nowadays
    Zen Arado: he sees me as a backslider
    Zen Arado: it gets irritating
    Korel Laloix: I can imagine.
    Zen Arado: I am not against Christianity...each to his own I say
    Zen Arado: but I don't like being preached at
    Korel Laloix: I get sort of the same thing, but the oppostie diretion.
    Santoshima Resident: sure
    Korel Laloix: And it does get sily.
    iwandertoo Resident: perhaps acknowledge that you understand his concerns and appreciate it, but that the principles you are living by are perhaps not too dissimilar and that you are leading an honorable life
    Santoshima Resident: :)
    Zen Arado: I have told him this many times but it still happens every now and then...what do I do?
    iwandertoo Resident: do you enjoy a mutual dialog with him?
    Zen Arado: no...he sees what I am inolved in as devil worship or saomething
    Eliza Madrigal: I 'lost' a dear dear friend this way... she was tormented worrying for me... couldn't bare to converse anymore...
    iwandertoo Resident: implement a standing order with him - an agreement - something like when you say, "thank you for caring, but i am living a good and honorable life"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Korel Laloix: Heya
    Zen Arado: Hi Taku
    iwandertoo Resident: and get him to acknowledge that when he hears this he will step back
    Zen Arado: Yaku
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi yaku
    Santoshima Resident: greetings, Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: I recently dreamed that we were girls in college and met between classes, walked a while, then acknowledged we were on different tracks and would met up later :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yaku :))
    Eliza Madrigal: *meet
    Korel Laloix: People sometimes have strange ways of showing care.
    Zen Arado: it's the sheer narrow mindedness and bogotry...I am right and you are obviously on the wrong track...that's hard to take
    Eliza Madrigal: there was respect and dignity, which is what I hear in Susan's idea
    Santoshima Resident: your friend is afraid
    iwandertoo Resident: i think, in this case Zen, then you agree to disagree - and walk away fromt he conversation when it gets abusive
    Zen Arado: yes but if he felt like that there wouldn't be a problem
    Santoshima Resident: the changes s/he sees in your cause him to doubt his own beliefs
    Zen Arado: yeh fear of death is there
    Santoshima Resident: sure
    Zen Arado: he reminds me of dying
    oO0Oo Resident: Maybe a book on Christian Buddhist syncretism would help: http://www.amazon.com/MY-FAVORITE-BU...m/DN1RGIDC4ZCB
    Zen Arado: which I am not too worried about
    Zen Arado: it would but no chance he would read it Sam
    Korel Laloix: He is definatly not communicating well.
    oO0Oo Resident: ah
    Zen Arado: he is steeped in old Puritan thought
    Zen Arado: only reads King James version of bible
    Santoshima Resident: and he is campaining for your "soul"
    iwandertoo Resident: zen, in his religion it is something he is supposed to do - he is supposed to try and get you back in the fold.
    Santoshima Resident: because of fear
    Zen Arado: yeh
    Korel Laloix: Now that is a seperate topic.... I know that crowd.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Zen Arado: I know this
    iwandertoo Resident: not necessarily fear
    iwandertoo Resident: if he is a true believer...he will try and try
    Korel Laloix: Not fear, it is regard.
    Zen Arado: yeh
    iwandertoo Resident: but he must value as a person if you are friends - need to find the way to redirect the conversation
    Zen Arado: could just hang up if he does it
    oO0Oo Resident: not to be accepted in a broader way by one considered a friend is a frustrating thing
    Zen Arado: but I don't like to be rude
    Santoshima Resident: sure, and us mirroring what you know back to you doesn't make it any less difficult with your friend
    iwandertoo Resident: its not being rude...
    Santoshima Resident: right
    Zen Arado: no...other viewpoints are useful
    Korel Laloix: And you do have to set boundries in any relationship.
    iwandertoo Resident: tell him, "I love you, man (or whatever the right ter would be), how about that article about...."
    Eliza Madrigal: or find where they already are :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I asked my friend too "can we be just ___ and ___? 'fast forward' to timelessness/eternity where all confusion has been resolved?"
    Zen Arado: old hristians are very set in their ideas
    Korel Laloix: Some new ones as well... smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: 'beyond christian, buddhist, etc'
    Eliza Madrigal: she felt not :) so far
    Zen Arado: yeh then I wonder 'am I set in some fixed viewpoint too?'
    Korel Laloix: YOu are.... but what is wrong with that?
    Korel Laloix: Why are we so afraid of being anchored?
    Eliza Madrigal: that's a good question .. whether the two of you only discuss 'spiritual' ideas?
    Zen Arado: he also talks a lot about 'the old days'
    Santoshima Resident: ah
    Zen Arado: I prefer to live in the present
    Zen Arado: 'will your anchor hold in ths storms of life'
    Zen Arado: old christian hymn
    Santoshima Resident: )
    Korel Laloix: Don't know that one, but I can't realy stand most hyms...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal still sings hymns sometimes
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: used to be the hymn for the Boys Brigade here
    Zen Arado: don't know if they have that in the US?
    Korel Laloix: Boys Brigade?
    Korel Laloix: Will look it up.
    Eliza Madrigal: don't think so Zen hmm
    Zen Arado: a bit like scouts
    Eliza Madrigal: I love many things about my Christian 'upbringing' and would love to talk to my friend about some of the parables in a more flexible way
    Zen Arado: http://www.boys-brigade.org.uk/
    Korel Laloix: Interesting, thanks for that.
    Santoshima Resident: hope that might be possible, zen
    Zen Arado: ha...he quoted the parable of sowing seeds on thorny grond...
    Zen Arado: I am obviously the thorny ground
    Eliza Madrigal: were you being thorny zen? hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Zen Arado: yes :)
    Zen Arado: I didn't take root
    oO0Oo Resident: :)
    Santoshima Resident: the thorny ground is the distance between you
    Eliza Madrigal: mmmmm
    Zen Arado: 'Faith' is the big separator
    Zen Arado: what is Faith?
    Santoshima Resident: the concepts and sectarian views
    Santoshima Resident: that line meant to precede your last one, zen
    oO0Oo Resident: Christianity and Buddhism meet in compassion
    Zen Arado: oh must be lag
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Santoshima Resident: simultaneous mail
    Zen Arado: faith is believing in something that might not be true..to me
    Zen Arado: I could never quite see why that is a virtue
    Korel Laloix: It is a lot more to me than that.
    oO0Oo Resident: ears perk
    Korel Laloix: Maybe the difference between Faith and faith.
    Zen Arado: maybe it is intuitive then
    Korel Laloix: For me, my Faith in Christ is a personal relationship, no so much a belief.
    Korel Laloix: Hard to explain it.
    Zen Arado: ok
    Eliza Madrigal: might too be called a 'groundless confidence'
    Korel Laloix: But I know the frustrations you are goig through.
    Zen Arado: I had that too I think
    Zen Arado: but I should be allowed to change I think
    Korel Laloix: I get the same from my old group and I get it now from my Christian friend that finally find out I am not straight.
    Korel Laloix: So the idea of f/Faith can make relationships strange sometimes.
    Eliza Madrigal: ah... yes, that isn't supposed to go with the package'
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Korel Laloix: lol
    oO0Oo Resident: we are getting a lot of understanding and empathy here :) Which feels nice.
    Korel Laloix: It was sort of funny, I actully became a CHristian in a gay church wiht a lesbian vicar, and I thought I would wake up the next morning straight....... way silly....lmbo looking back.
    Zen Arado: I think we are all diverse and unique individuals
    Zen Arado: and can't see us as ever all singing from the same hymnsheet
    Zen Arado: the church I went to wouldn't accept women as elders even
    Eliza Madrigal: but it would be nice to dive into one another's worlds for a bit :)
    Zen Arado: yeh lots of overlaps if we look for them
    Zen Arado: how to get on with and tolerate the differences is the difficulty
    Zen Arado: get on with each other
    Eliza Madrigal: a lot of it seems simple 'manners' ?
    Zen Arado: agree Eliza
    Zen Arado: I like to be open to other's ideas
    Zen Arado: but then you get hammered by people who aren't so open and are dogmatic
    oO0Oo Resident: path
    Santoshima Resident: that's when we get to face our own internal internal dogma
    Santoshima Resident: (oops: double "internal" there)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: it's good to use these episodes to examine oursleves
    Zen Arado: or is it?
    Korel Laloix: I think looking inside is a great thing to do.
    Eliza Madrigal: I think this is sort of the needle's eye question of our time
    Zen Arado: if I didn't have a lot of ego it might not disturb me
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Korel
    Zen Arado: yes Korel
    Santoshima Resident: bye sam

    Origins of some of our beliefs (or non belief):

    Korel Laloix: For me, what made me start looking at religion as a serios idea was the dogma that was pushed at me in my university classes.
    Korel Laloix: Particularly my philosophy classes.
    Zen Arado: wb Sam
    Santoshima Resident: wb sam
    Eliza Madrigal wonders if Sam just ran a lap
    oO0Oo Resident: ty
    Korel Laloix: I was haveing that forced on me, so I ran the other way.... predictibly.
    Zen Arado: think that was what turned me off it Korel
    Korel Laloix: I know the feeling.
    Zen Arado: looking at arguments for and against the existence of God
    Korel Laloix: Just oposite directions.
    Zen Arado: it actually turned me towards Buddhist ideas
    Korel Laloix: And that is intersrting to me as that question is not interesting at all to me.
    Korel Laloix: Not sure that sentance makes sence.
    Zen Arado: yes it does :)
    Korel Laloix: Oh Ok.
    Zen Arado: it was the 'Personal Identity' question turned me to Buddhism
    Eliza Madrigal: I like the Christian phrases about direct experience, and introspection too... 'examining one's heart, shining a light'...
    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
    Santoshima Resident: hey boxy
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy :))
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Eliza Madrigal rubs Boxy's ear
    Alfred Kelberry: *purrs*
    Zen Arado: Hi Alf :)
    Korel Laloix: Another funny thing about Christianity for me was....
    Alfred Kelberry: i have a little suggestion if i may
    Zen Arado: sure
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, sorry, korel
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Korel Laloix: I leaned most of what I knew about it from greiving Christian Sims in SL.
    Eliza Madrigal: ?!
    Korel Laloix: SO that was odd....
    Korel Laloix: And the thing that really struck me was how CHristians could not agree on anything.
    Korel Laloix smiles... so that was appealing to me... for some strange reason.
    Zen Arado: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Korel Laloix: SL has had a huge inpact on my life.
    Alfred Kelberry: had a phone call. good timing :)
    Eliza Madrigal: It may go back to the 'argument' question itself... the feeling that to 'prove one's point' is the aim of life
    Zen Arado: yeh
    Eliza Madrigal: varies widely from place to place I'm sure
    Zen Arado: I see myself as argumentative sometimes
    Korel Laloix: I am more of a, to ask the best questions is the aim of life.
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Zen Arado: yeh that's philosophy
    Zen Arado: how to ask better questions
    Eliza Madrigal: I like that... more and more precise questions
    Alfred Kelberry: best = precise?
    Zen Arado: but never expect any answers
    Zen Arado: precise as in getting closer to the 'truth'?
    Zen Arado: or a more refined question maybe
    Korel Laloix: I love ONe Thessalonians..... "Question/Test everything and hold onto the good."
    Eliza Madrigal: and all these things working with our own minds and lives rather than fixing 'that guy over there'
    Eliza Madrigal: being refined... manners... :)
    Korel Laloix: Some people do need fixing though.
    Zen Arado: "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast" Ephesians 2.8
    Korel Laloix: BUt the trick is to fix yourself first.
    Korel Laloix: wado Santoshima.... smiels
    Eliza Madrigal: “Lighthouses don’t go running all over an island looking for boats to save; they just stand there shining.” ― Anne Lamott
    Korel Laloix: I love Anne Lamott.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Korel Laloix: She needs to fix her hair though.
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Korel Laloix: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: yeah maybe
    Korel Laloix: An old white woman has no business in dreadlocks.... lol.
    Eliza Madrigal: fantasticly raw writer
    Zen Arado: 'let it shine let it shine , let it shine'
    Korel Laloix: (says the girl about to put extentions in her hair)
    Eliza Madrigal: (brb, phone)
    Zen Arado likes dreadlocks
    Korel Laloix: lol
    Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat all... off to my AGD thing.... will be dancing right about the time of the next session...
    Korel Laloix: Ciao
    Santoshima Resident: sye korel
    Santoshima Resident: bye
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye korel
    Zen Arado: bye Korel
    Eliza Madrigal: here...
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Korel!
    oO0Oo Resident: wb
    Eliza Madrigal: :)Ty

    Alf's suggestion:

    Eliza Madrigal wonders what Boxy's suggestion was
    oO0Oo Resident: Korel will dance today... keeping her in my thoughts
    Eliza Madrigal: on stage?
    Eliza Madrigal: or?
    oO0Oo Resident: traditional dance
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice :) :::sends warm beams to Korel::::
    Zen Arado: yes Alf....it got swamped
    oO0Oo Resident: [] Korel Laloix: Just a short spotlight. [] Korel Laloix: A couple of each form. [] Korel Laloix: I am jsut doing Fancy. [] Korel Laloix: But might join in for buckskin if thye need someone.
    Eliza Madrigal: so neat, thanks oooOO0OOooo
    Alfred Kelberry: eliza, i thought maybe for the 99 days project today we could list 5 things that we're thankful for.
    oO0Oo Resident: its powerful... she showed us video before
    oO0Oo Resident: nice idea Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: beautiful idea Boxy... on the website that you made, or on the regular wiki page?
    Alfred Kelberry: no, the wiki
    oO0Oo Resident: oh sorry... Boxy
    Zen Arado: 'Count your blessings...'
    Eliza Madrigal: we blend together on one cushion today ;-)
    Zen Arado: always a good idea
    Alfred Kelberry: and on this note i have to go, sorry :)
    Zen Arado: 'name them one by one'
    Eliza Madrigal: ty Santo :))
    Zen Arado: take care Eliza :)
    Alfred Kelberry: thank you for your beings :)
    Eliza Madrigal: OK Boxy, look forward to reading your report
    oO0Oo Resident: Bye Boxy grateful for you
    Yakuzza Lethecus: have a good day everyone
    Santoshima Resident: bye boxy
    oO0Oo Resident: Yaku :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zen, Yaku :)
    Zen Arado: bye all and thanks for coming :)
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks for the interesting talk
    Santoshima Resident: so long, Yaku
    oO0Oo Resident: Bye Zen :)
    Santoshima Resident: thanks, all
    Santoshima Resident: bye zen
    Eliza Madrigal: 11:11 and allllsss welll....
    Santoshima Resident: bye, Eliza, gtsy
    oO0Oo Resident: that's me too
    Eliza Madrigal: Very nice to see you both, hugs and have a lovely day :)
    oO0Oo Resident: est wishes all
    oO0Oo Resident: Best

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