2012.01.16 07:00 - Languages and Traditions

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Archmage Atlantis, Druth Vlodovic, Multiverse Resident, Xirana Oximoxi, Yaku Lethicus and myself


    Zen Arado: Hi Multi :)
    Multiverse1 Resident: Hi Zen, good day to you.
    Zen Arado: how are you this morning?
    Multiverse1 Resident: Very well, keeping warm, there is a chill in the air, at my abode
    Zen Arado: where is that?
    Multiverse1 Resident: New Hampshire, the heat is trying to keep up with the outside temperature
    Zen Arado: Hi Arch :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Druth :)
    druth Vlodovic: hey guys
    Zen Arado: it is only 5 C here
    Archmage Atlantis: hey peeps
    Multiverse1 Resident: Hi , Arch, Druth
    Multiverse1 Resident: I feel like a marshmallow peep, all of a sudden
    Zen Arado: oh why?
    Archmage Atlantis: Everytime I sign on to sl, my av is withough clothing........I have to allow time to find my clothes.......that is weird
    Multiverse1 Resident: Just a thought on peeps, they are an Easter confection
    Multiverse1 Resident: Are they still downloading, or not there?
    Archmage Atlantis: My ex ex loved marshmellow peeps.....but it isn't easter yer
    Zen Arado: yeh heard that before
    Zen Arado: in USA only though I think
    Multiverse1 Resident: or people in slang
    Zen Arado: wonder where the slang term comes from?
    Archmage Atlantis: yep, it's our thing
    Multiverse1 Resident: yes in the usa

    Mutating language:

    Multiverse1 Resident: Slang terms seem to come and go and mutate with time
    Zen Arado: oh yes
    Zen Arado: language is fluid
    Multiverse1 Resident: origins are hard to pinpoint, in most cases
    Zen Arado: yeh
    Zen Arado: etymology is so nteresting
    Zen Arado: I bought a book about it recently
    Multiverse1 Resident: sl, has created new terms as such
    Zen Arado: haven't had time to read it yet :(
    Archmage Atlantis: Wonder what created that interest for you Zen *smile*]
    Zen Arado: have always been interested in language I guess
    Zen Arado: I did a little on Saussurian linguistics one time
    Zen Arado: remember that he said that language is self referential
    Archmage Atlantis: learning about language and about disability and about reality, those topic sort of fit in a megaset, harkin back to my mathematics days
    Zen Arado: words meanings can be understood by reference to other words
    Zen Arado: which is what we do looking up a dictionary
    Multiverse1 Resident: Yes, thus the same words or phrases in different toungues can have completely different meanings
    Archmage Atlantis: That is an interesting idea.......how does one define a dectionary
    Zen Arado: by other dictionaries I guess :)
    Archmage Atlantis: *chuckles*
    Zen Arado: makes you realize how insubstantial words are
    Multiverse1 Resident: an assemblage of written words?
    druth Vlodovic: somebody just took the plunge and wrote one, I bet there was a big fuss when he did
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: there was a guy wrote first dictionary
    Zen Arado: can't remember his name
    Multiverse1 Resident: translators, woulkd have been the 1st to do so, I would think
    Archmage Atlantis: Here we give the credit to Daniel Webster

    Multiverse1 Resident: Webster, is our famous English dictionarian
    Zen Arado: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dicti...glish_Language
    Archmage Atlantis: But my guess is that thee were peel and books b4
    Zen Arado: Samuel Johnston first good one
    Zen Arado: if you go back 1000 years the english then would be unintelligible to us
    Multiverse1 Resident: yes, as we have the "urban " dictionary in today's english also.
    Zen Arado: even the King James bible is only intelligible because of familiarity I think
    druth Vlodovic: if you go 1000 miles english is often unintelligible lol
    Zen Arado: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: well, my mom's side were celts........have learned how to pronounce some welsch words
    Multiverse1 Resident: old english, yes, hard to interpret some of the meanings involved
    Archmage Atlantis: beowolf, et al
    Multiverse1 Resident: even in the early days of the last century
    Zen Arado: I can't speak any Irish even though I was brought up here
    Multiverse1 Resident: do you know those who still use it Zen?
    Zen Arado: does learning a foreign language change your brain?
    Archmage Atlantis: My opinion is that it does, Zen
    Zen Arado: oh yes Irish Gaelic is still used in schools and many also speak it
    Zen Arado: I have a friend who is an Irish translator
    Multiverse1 Resident: Is it intelligible to you
    Archmage Atlantis: In English, most pronouns are without gende
    Zen Arado: she was working on translating science textbooks into Irish
    Archmage Atlantis: In the Romance languages, gender is required
    Zen Arado: totally unintelligible to me
    Zen Arado: I never leared it at school
    Zen Arado: because I was a protestant
    Multiverse1 Resident: When I was a child, I did not know english, only french, now I can't speak either, lol
    Zen Arado: Romance languages Arch?
    Archmage Atlantis: Languages derived from Rome
    Zen Arado: I am trying to learn French
    Multiverse1 Resident: from latin?
    Zen Arado: would be easy for you Multi
    Archmage Atlantis: The Roman Empire
    Zen Arado: ah ok
    druth Vlodovic: french, spanish portugese... etc
    Zen Arado: Indo European we call them
    druth Vlodovic: hi xir
    Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone:)
    Zen Arado: I learned a little Latin at high school
    Zen Arado: Hi Xirana :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Buenos Dias, Senorita Xirana
    Multiverse1 Resident: yet, we also have non-verbal forms of communication, even today.
    Multiverse1 Resident: Hola, Xirana
    Xirana Oximoxi: Zen, I know a place where they do a French course for beginners and also for advanced
    Zen Arado: Buenas Dias
    Xirana Oximoxi: hola amigos:)
    Xirana Oximoxi: buenos días!
    Zen Arado: I am reading French novels with english translation
    Xirana Oximoxi: are you all learning Spanish??? :)
    Zen Arado: oh thought it was an a in buenos
    Multiverse1 Resident: speaking of dictionaries, led to languages
    Xirana Oximoxi: ah good way to learn too..reading :)... but if you want to speak a little you tell me:) I'll give you the LM
    Zen Arado: give me anyway Xirana
    Zen Arado: but not confident speaking it
    Multiverse1 Resident: In America, we are developing what is becoming known as Spanglish currently
    Xirana Oximoxi: ok, moment... if anyone alse wants it, please tell me... I don't know how to copy in the chat
    druth Vlodovic: you found french speakers who will talk to foreigners?! I want to meet them
    Multiverse1 Resident: hehe
    Zen Arado: I have a French woman friend :)
    Multiverse1 Resident: They will teach them nasty things, I am sure
    Zen Arado: who speaks little english
    Zen Arado: great motivation to learn
    Zen Arado: ;)
    druth Vlodovic: yes, you have to watch, secretly teaching the newcomers all the swearwords is a national past time anywhere

    Archmage Atlantis: Growing up in the southern US, I spent a lot of time learin Spanish.......but in spite of the hours I spent in the language lag, I was never able to understand any of my Cuban friends.........then I hheard a tv show spoken in Castellian Spanish, Iand I could understand the words
    Multiverse1 Resident: Dialects, as Zen said, Ireland and Welsh and such, or Canadian French vs: Indo-European
    Multiverse1 Resident: or Castillean
    Zen Arado: if I spoke the way I do to friends you might not understand my accent either
    Zen Arado: so why learn a foreign language?
    Multiverse1 Resident: Yet we strive to understand each other
    Zen Arado: you only really need english?
    Archmage Atlantis: My former partner in life awoke me to how much language influences us.....My moter grew up in
    Archmage Atlantis: SE Alabama,, deep south accent
    Archmage Atlantis: very civil war
    Multiverse1 Resident: and with language, an understanding of culture
    Zen Arado: what happened to universal languages like esperanto?
    Multiverse1 Resident: Arch is a Rebel then!
    Archmage Atlantis: When my aunt called me, I switched from my Miami accent to south AL
    druth Vlodovic: lol
    Zen Arado: was that a good idea?
    Archmage Atlantis: He tells the story as, who was this in bed beside me
    druth Vlodovic: why make everyone learn a new made up language when we already speak one or more?
    Archmage Atlantis: Like a strange ploped in
    Zen Arado: I would find it hard to switch accents
    Archmage Atlantis: I speak rebel....and perhaps am one
    Xirana Oximoxi: to keep our memory alive...for exemple :) and to read original books... learning languages is also a way to discover the world and different perceptions of it
    Zen Arado: but maybe different languages divide us in some way?
    Archmage Atlantis: just for freedom for all
    Zen Arado: yes agree Xirana
    druth Vlodovic: people will gather in exlusive groups as a matter of instinct and habit
    Zen Arado: it causes problems here in Ireland
    Xirana Oximoxi: who will decide which is the best language for all... money?
    Zen Arado: road signs have to be in english and irish
    Xirana Oximoxi: power?
    druth Vlodovic: better to teach people to accept what exists and learn to live together than to try and give them a "perfect world of social engineering"
    Zen Arado: it's another example of holding to old traditions
    Xirana Oximoxi: in Catalonia we usually have also signs in both langages...but Catalns we must always fight for this right
    Multiverse1 Resident: Like in Canada, French and English signs, but not in the rest of the country
    Archmage Atlantis: Perhaps, Xirana, the fact that we are discussing the topic here
    druth Vlodovic: I think only Quebec had bilingual road signs
    Multiverse1 Resident: Quebec Province only there

    The value of traditions:

    Zen Arado: sometimes people cling to outdated traditions though?
    druth Vlodovic: traditions give us identity and a sense of continence, a bit of stability
    Zen Arado: I know in N.Ireland they celebrate a 300 year old battle every year
    Archmage Atlantis: We have road signs, and automatic call answering, in english, spanish, and creole
    Multiverse1 Resident: My grandmother, emigrated when she was in her 20's and never learned english
    Xirana Oximoxi: what do you mean 'outdated traditions' Zen?
    Zen Arado: Hi Yaku :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    druth Vlodovic: hey yakuzza
    Multiverse1 Resident: Hi Yaku
    Zen Arado: like the old battle I mentioned Xirana
    Xirana Oximoxi: hyi Yaku:)
    Zen Arado: it stirs up division and hatred I think
    Multiverse1 Resident: steeped in tradition, and pride
    Xirana Oximoxi: ah yes, I see :)
    Zen Arado: do tthey celebrate the civil war in USA?
    druth Vlodovic: "he who does not remember history is doomed to repeat it" if we stop holding traditions then we lose our interest in history as well
    Archmage Atlantis: Zen, it can also bring us all together.......the civil war in the US divided us, and then it brought us together
    Multiverse1 Resident: I have a neighbor who is from Puerto Rico, now a US province. He has been here 15 years and barely speaks english.
    Zen Arado: I am just musing about it...I see the value but maybe there are some could be let go of
    Multiverse1 Resident: I had to call the cable company for him
    druth Vlodovic: I've watched severl documentaries about soldiers returning to battlefields where they fought
    druth Vlodovic: meeting people who's husbands or children they may have killed, whose houses they detroyed
    Zen Arado: but do they have marches and parades on civil war anniversary?
    druth Vlodovic: some can accept things for what they were and move on
    druth Vlodovic: doesn't mean they should forget
    Zen Arado: yes a kind of anesthetising Dru?
    Zen Arado: or more a facing up to
    druth Vlodovic: in fact I suspect that a better and deeper understanding is a better way of moving on than forgetting could be
    Multiverse1 Resident: The history of part of the oldest rivalries, like the Jewish and the Palastinians maybe

    Archmage Atlantis: Yes Zen, they do
    Multiverse1 Resident: Some must fester in this, as it is all they have to cling to. They can never move on.
    druth Vlodovic: Canadians have festivals celebrating battles fought against the americans
    Zen Arado: sometimes old bitternesses and hatreds can be instilled into the next generation I find...through these rememberings
    Multiverse1 Resident: Like some in the north and south in the USA also.
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, agree, Multi......still out of that can still come new growth
    druth Vlodovic: maybe if we had more about the battles between the french and english we'd be better able to salve those hurts too,
    Zen Arado: there isn't much antagonism between Canadians and Americans though?
    Multiverse1 Resident: Yes, but only for a percentage of us, and it takes generations
    druth Vlodovic: not due to that, we won after all :)
    Multiverse1 Resident: Some wish never to change
    Multiverse1 Resident: They thrive on histories past
    Archmage Atlantis: Some do, yes that is true Multi
    Multiverse1 Resident: I do not subscribe to this, nor I doubt anyone present here
    Archmage Atlantis: So we who wish to chang, we have to soldier on

    War: when will it ever end?

    Zen Arado: I see remembrance days for soldiers who died in the world wars 1 and 2 and good to remember what they gave for us
    Multiverse1 Resident: yes, but the rivalries are past
    Zen Arado: but I also think it is sad that young men are still losing their lives in this way
    druth Vlodovic: I don't like this whole "I forgive them" thing though, in the final analysis hardly ever has anyone done something because they are bad people
    Archmage Atlantis: My dad was a sargeant in the D-Day invasion of Normandy
    Multiverse1 Resident: and forming new opinions of other cultures and language "barriors"
    Multiverse1 Resident: Barriers
    Archmage Atlantis: He lived with that guilt, of killng others, his whole life
    Zen Arado: and the dehumanising of 'the enemy' during war
    druth Vlodovic: we all do what we do because it seems like a good idea at the time, understanding and acceptance to me, is the proper path
    Zen Arado: yes Arch
    Zen Arado: soldiers aren't robots
    Multiverse1 Resident: But they are programmed to be such
    Zen Arado: yes but populations can be programmed in a way I think
    Zen Arado: snap
    Multiverse1 Resident: each, we are individual
    Multiverse1 Resident: mass hypnosis?
    Zen Arado: if you didn't join up in world war 1 you were labelled a coward
    Archmage Atlantis: Agree Multi, we each have individual decisions to make
    Multiverse1 Resident: many wars are nationalistic, or become so.
    Zen Arado: for standing against the mob mentality fo the time
    Archmage Atlantis: I need to go....my heart is heavy
    Multiverse1 Resident: or todays media blitz
    Zen Arado: yes sorry this is a heavy topic
    Multiverse1 Resident: Bye Arch , be well
    Zen Arado: it touches everyone deeply
    Zen Arado: bye Arch
    Zen Arado: be well
    Multiverse1 Resident: yes, war is Hell, no
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye Arch
    Zen Arado: at least people ar more wise about it now
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye arch
    Zen Arado: maybe as we all get more educated and civilized wars will stop
    Multiverse1 Resident: some will never learn though, it is trully ashamed of us as an "intelligent" species
    Zen Arado: I suppose we are agressive species too
    druth Vlodovic: as people learn to value themselves and others I suspect that the impetus for peace and compromise will outweight the desire for violence
    Zen Arado: hope so Druth
    Xirana Oximoxi: we are 'intelligent' specie..but also ambicious...
    Multiverse1 Resident: I have seen in sl where it is encouraged to fight here in a virtual world, to allow one to let off steam. So as not to bring it into their real lives. A venting of anger persay.
    Zen Arado: and information technology lets us see we arent' much different from other people in other countries
    druth Vlodovic: I've done that multi, it works for extremes of frustration
    Zen Arado: I remember Thich Nhat Hanh saying that those kind of pratices only let us rehearse anger and violence though Multi
    Multiverse1 Resident: Yes ,and for some it may be real life sports against a perceived adversary.
    Multiverse1 Resident: Yes Zen there is no one answer,
    druth Vlodovic: there is a balance between letting off steam and creating violent habits
    Zen Arado: yeh
    druth Vlodovic: for me the interest waned after the frustration was mitigated

    Multiverse1 Resident: The magic "peace pill" is what we need. Though some would not take it.
    Zen Arado: we will either become a peaceful species or wipe ourselves out
    Zen Arado: sorry for the dualism
    Multiverse1 Resident: is true though
    Zen Arado: or maybe a few huddles survivors emerge again
    Zen Arado: but after a nuclear war maybe not
    Zen Arado: cockroaches will take over the earth
    Multiverse1 Resident: and ants
    Zen Arado: unless we gat to Mars or something
    Multiverse1 Resident: but this has been said for thousands of years, just the scope of "world" has changed, and so still does.
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: are we really changing?
    Zen Arado: we are still animals at heart
    druth Vlodovic: "The world as we know it" has been destroyed many times
    Zen Arado: brutal
    Zen Arado: yes
    druth Vlodovic: we are also loving, caring beasts
    Zen Arado: if only the love would grow
    Multiverse1 Resident: Yes, take the greeks or romans, or celts, or 1st americans
    druth Vlodovic: don't let the warmongers convince you that mankind is evil
    Xirana Oximoxi: I go now... nice day to all!
    Multiverse1 Resident: I like that, being a "beast"
    druth Vlodovic: have fun xir
    Yakuzza Lethecus: how to make the wold ones own tribe
    Zen Arado: :)
    Multiverse1 Resident: Adios Xirana
    Zen Arado: yes Yaku
    Xirana Oximoxi: ty, you too:)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: adios xirana
    Xirana Oximoxi: adiós! :) hasta la vista
    Zen Arado: adios Xirana
    Xirana Oximoxi: :))
    Zen Arado: I better go
    Zen Arado: ty to all for coming
    druth Vlodovic: me too, have fun guys
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone

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