2012.01.17 01:00 - If you let go of thinking, do you fall onto the floor, drooling, with your eyes rolling back?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was oO0Oo Resident. The comments are by oO0Oo Resident.

    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi :)
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Lawrence. Good to see you again. Peaceful here.




    Lawrence Vyceratops: baby's asleep again. for how long, we'll see haha
    oO0Oo Resident: A little stillness? ;) of a kind. How old is your baby?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: he is 7 mos
    Lawrence Vyceratops: on the move, these days! :)
    oO0Oo Resident: me smiles.. special times I imagine.. just being with him, and watching him grow, and learn.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: it's very fun :)
    oO0Oo Resident: nice to just have a space to rest sometimes.. between baby rests ;)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: he sleeps good, so it's not too bad... yet! ;)
    oO0Oo Resident: I think being with young people, can be a very interesting way of working with our own rhythms, and finding freshness in experience, and also new ways to take care of ourselves.. a necessity to keep with the erratic or changeable patterns of care or attention to the child.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: it does make it easy to see how we can be set in our patterns


    oO0Oo Resident: I was just re-reading the page on the PaB wiki, in which Pema, describes how to "Play as Being"  and come away with a small quote:

         "If we can form a community of peers, involved in
         exploring reality day-by-day in the laboratory of
         our own life, sharing what we see and learn, I
         have nothing further to wish for."

    Lawrence Vyceratops: ah
    Lawrence Vyceratops: would you like to talk about reality?
    oO0Oo Resident: well, I am interested in this approach, of using this process Pema describes, to explore what reality might be, or not be over a philosophical discourse, which i am not very adept with anyway :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: approach?
    oO0Oo Resident: yes there are 3 loosely defined steps
    Lawrence Vyceratops: ah, i do this most of the day
    oO0Oo Resident: Really? :)
    oO0Oo Resident: Could you say more about this?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i think so. i briefly scanned it, but i think i get the gist
    Lawrence Vyceratops: well, when we talk about being something like "frenchman" "carpenter" etc, is that reality?
    oO0Oo Resident: I believe just relative operating labels
    Lawrence Vyceratops: is that what we are? if so, what is "me"?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: or, rather, when I say, "i'm an american" i am lookng at an idea, am i just an idea?
    oO0Oo Resident: Shall we let go of ideas in the next drop?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: drop?
    oO0Oo Resident: at the bell
    oO0Oo Resident: for 90 seconds


    Lawrence Vyceratops: i'm not sure what you mean, precisely...
    oO0Oo Resident: One thing that happens here, is that every 15 minutes, there is a bell, and the fountain changes.. a mist comes over the pool, and we are invited to work with the practice of dropping what we have , to see who we may be?
    oO0Oo Resident: From the Play as Being FAQ:

    What exactly should I do in those 9 seconds?

    At a minimum, three things:

    1. stop what we are doing at that moment (as long as that is easy and natural; no need to stop driving your car or stop having a conversation);

    2. focus on your next breath (doesn’t have to be extra deep or slow, but shouldn’t be shallow);

    3. write down a few words, or at most a short sentence, whatever spontaneously comes up (keep a journal for this, a small notebook or computer file).

    Besides these three, it would be good to keep the notion of Play as Being in mind as well, in a very loose way.

    Lawrence Vyceratops: oh, yes. i meant i didn't know what you meant by "let go of ideas"
    oO0Oo Resident: This is a description of the practice as it can be done in RL, 9 seconds every 15 minutes. But here in SL, the practice in the pavilion is 90 seconds every 15 minutes.
    oO0Oo Resident: Well...
    oO0Oo Resident: sometimes we try and orient a kind of frame for when the bell approaches
    Lawrence Vyceratops: does this refer to the stillness we mentioned earlier before i left?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: ;)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: orient a frame?
    oO0Oo Resident: well it could? :))) Did it come to mind? I guess it did.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: seems mechanical :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: sounds, sorry
    oO0Oo Resident: 'frame', meaning a kind of intention, and orientation to how we might regard the time period between bells.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: and how must we regard it?
    oO0Oo Resident: well, perhaps no musts.. but loosely, and lightly as Pema describes on the pages I linked. The notion is to use our own direct experience to engage with this sense of labels.. that question, or the resulting texture of that question, of whether those labels comprise a me or not
    Lawrence.jpgoO0Oo Resident: then sort of let those go
    oO0Oo Resident: and let being play
    oO0Oo Resident: in a sense
    oO0Oo Resident: so
    oO0Oo Resident: a light touch for sure
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what is being? can we question that?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: being a carpenter or an american?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: is that what we mean by being?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: or being a human being?
    oO0Oo Resident: Well this is the interesting point. How might we question that non-conceptually? ;)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: right, because i am a frenchman is full of ideas and concepts.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: ideals
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, without our concepts, is there being?
    oO0Oo Resident smiles
    oO0Oo Resident:

         "For starters, we can consider the following working
          hypothesis: all that appears is (in some sense yet to
          be explored) presented by Being. A way to work with
          this working hypothesis is to do the following
          homework: Appreciate the presence of appearance as a
          presentation by Being. In many different situations,
          take a moment: consider all that appears both inside
          your own thoughts and feelings as well as in the world
          outside of you, and simply appreciate their presence
          while considering them as given (in some sense; the
          sense may shift) by Being."
               -- Pema Pera [ http://is.gd/W50LZN ]



    Lawrence Vyceratops: if we are wrapped up in a game, is that being?
























    Lawrence Vyceratops: if we are talking, is that being? we mentioned being an american or frenchman. is that being? are they all?
    oO0Oo Resident: Lawrence, your question.. "if we are wrapped up in a game, is that being?" As for me.. taking a breath.. and seeing the computer screen with its caricatures.. I felt a welling humor, and became more aware of the space between my body and the screen. I then saw myself thinking of the humor of being wrapped up in "game", and then my body relaxed. I placed my hand down.. unfolded it.. breathed and expanded in a way.. letting go of the thoughts.. then saw myself thinking about that, and in turn relaxed a bit more. That was my 90 second experience.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: my 90sec experience was wondering what or why we are doing 90 sec.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: or what people think we are doing
    Lawrence Vyceratops: wondering what is meant by being, what the term refers to, as everyone uses it
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i find it important to carefully define these terms that we throw around. if they just refer to personal experiences, what can we expect to gain from that?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: it's personal.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what is universal about being?
    oO0Oo Resident laughs.. well, i don't want to give a heavy handed impression that it has to be one way or another. Sometimes we agree to be a bit more structured and formal about the "drops", and then often it is open ended, like Rumi's field or some such... There can be a playful quality either way. // I'm not sure if there is any agreed upon notion of being in this group. I often think of the question of whether "play" is dressed as "being"? or whether maybe "being" is "playing"? but to be honest, I can't grasp an answer personally.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, let's look at it :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what is playiing?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: oh, wait..
    Lawrence Vyceratops: let's look without conclusions of what it is.
    oO0Oo Resident: :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: me is an important part, isn't it?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: otherwise, who is playing?
    oO0Oo Resident: is there playness?
    oO0Oo Resident: playfulness?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: we are playing as being. and we are asking, what is playing.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what do we mean by playness?


    Lawrence Vyceratops: do we mean play as watching?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: not play as watching.. play = watching?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: watching ourselves be?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: oh, sorry... silence..... haha
    Lawrence Vyceratops: my refrigerator was being noisy.
    oO0Oo Resident: np.. I like your questions
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, do we mean play means watching ourselves be or watching being?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: or do we mean just follow some silly little thought in our head and play with that?
    oO0Oo Resident: watching.. watcher.. awareness.. play.. gaps in awareness.. or in thinking of watcher or being watcher.. allowing .. then space or time gap.. being.. simply or without reference.. Is that play?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: is that being or is that becoming?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: is there a difference? are they the same?
    oO0Oo Resident: coming and going? noticing is becoming? or only when labeled or concepted, or?
    oO0Oo Resident: are there cracks in the infrastructure?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i am this.....something happened.....i am that. is that becoming?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: is being also becoming?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: a part of becoming?
    oO0Oo Resident: is there an being that is separate from the labeling of "i am", and is the "i am" real? or an addition to a what is, that is beyond or without reference to an I ?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: that is a good question. is there? there is the body.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: when we say, "i am american"
    Lawrence Vyceratops: that is the mind referring to the mind, isn't it?
    oO0Oo Resident:

         "In fact, you could say that everything is Being,
          and when not recognized as such, becomes hidden
          as a metaphor. Something glorious appears, and
          hits us in an instant, in its naked thereness.
          Then we call it a bird, thereby dressing it up
          in a concept, a kind of metaphor. We shift from
          the Isness of the situation to the packaging.
          Appreciating the Presence of Appearance as such
          is an exploration of what it can be like to live
          without (i.e. see through the spell of) metaphors."
               -Pema Pera [ http://is.gd/Z2ryoD ]

    Lawrence Vyceratops: what's with the whispers? :) it does that to me
    oO0Oo Resident: I think whispers occur when the shift key is pressed when entering text in chat.. to the best of my knowledge. :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: ah. was wonderng :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, if the body is sitting in a room without making any effort to do anything physically, we also try to not make an effort psychologically? is that the intention?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: but, we must make effort to sit up, things like that.


    oO0Oo Resident: Thank you Lawrence.. Interestingly when the bell rang .. the first bell, I sat up straight, orientated my body to an upright comfortable position
    Lawrence Vyceratops: because you had intention?
    oO0Oo Resident: then I thought, I observed myself wanting to frame myself as being without metaphors for the break. Then I noticed I was anticipating answering you, then my experience went to the visual sense of elements of the SL viewer.. then my experience expanded to a broader field. It felt like an expanding and melting quality.. and relaxing.. and ambient sounds came, and also the feeling of my body.. feet on the floor, weight on the seat...

    Lawrence+0-above.jpgoO0Oo Resident: It is interesting this mind body idea we have
    oO0Oo Resident: Is that real?
    oO0Oo Resident: and what you said before
    oO0Oo Resident: about a body in a room
    oO0Oo Resident: reminded me of certain meditation instructions
    oO0Oo Resident: the orientation of the body is given first
    oO0Oo Resident: then in a sense
    oO0Oo Resident: it rests
    oO0Oo Resident: and all that is left is the contents of phenomena arising
    oO0Oo Resident: sensations
    oO0Oo Resident: emotions
    oO0Oo Resident: thoughts
    oO0Oo Resident: they just happen
    oO0Oo Resident: of their own accord
    Lawrence Vyceratops: the "me"
    oO0Oo Resident: can they be a me? I don't know.. they rise and disintegrate .. at points they feel more solid and as though "me", but at times just passing without reference.. and "I" watch, or something watches, but.. then something also watches that watcher, and so on.. not sure there is a substantial watcher in the end
    Lawrence Vyceratops: you are assuming that "me" is permanent?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: If i jump in a spaceship, blast off toward the sun and am disintegrated, is there a "me" that remains apart from my remains? :)
    oO0Oo Resident: I am only asking the question.. I do not know.. I suspect not. I think the sense of "me" is a kind of propped up illusion that is juggled along.. but realistically, there are real gaps in this juggling act.. and even obvious droppings.. so what we call "me" may be just as the same as saying "i have the occupation of carpenter".. "I have me concept now.. and now, and now, and now"


    Lawrence Vyceratops: thought baby was wakng up :)

    Lawrence Vyceratops: he's asleep..... so is "me" a concept? a thought?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: realistically, we are human beings, aren't we? i may be a carpenter, he may be a bus driver. that's not what we really are. those are things we do.
    oO0Oo Resident: out of the "just this", "just this", "just this", kind of flow of experiences.. there seems to be occasions of solidifying experience into concepts. Impulses, then labels.. and the flow of these is what is thought of as "Me".. yet it is very porous in a sense.. and very unclear if any real or substantial entity is behind that process at all.
    oO0Oo Resident: Thinking.. "human beings".. what is that
    oO0Oo Resident: a working model
    Lawrence Vyceratops: you know the scientific classification
    Lawrence Vyceratops: but, more than just that i guess
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what makes us all human, the universality of us
    Lawrence Vyceratops: being a carpenter or indian is not universal to us all.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: but, right, the me. porous, as you say
    Lawrence Vyceratops: nothing substantial, apparently.
    oO0Oo Resident: Well on a relative level, what we call a human, is a collection of many many representatives of many species of beings, and at any given time there is a different mix, but we again assert a self onto that situation
    Lawrence Vyceratops: right, so self is really just a collection of thoughts or ideas, concepts
    Lawrence Vyceratops: essentially, the thinker is the thought
    oO0Oo Resident: and because we have perhaps had the experience of not having thoughts, ideas, and concepts.. what does that leave?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what is experience?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: is it also based on thought?


    oO0Oo Resident laughs.. I really did have a solid run of thinking during that break.. I did not let go much at all ;)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what does it mean to let go of thought? does that mean there is no thinking?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: if you let go of thinking, do you fall onto the floor, drooling, with your eyes rolling back? haha
    oO0Oo Resident: well in this case, I mean to say that, that element.. hm.. noticing, or awareness, that marks the occasions of experience.. Put it this way.. I was immersed in a train of thought, so thoroughly, that there was no outside of that, until the point that watcher noticed.. or noticing occurred, at which point I noticed that there had been the immersion.. and this quality of solidity, varyingly, and coming and going.. all bounded by moments of awareness, and the edges of that are gaps in the momentum of whatever is appearing. // LOL .. falling and drooling.. no.. not necessary.. I mean .. consider sleep. Do we think then?
    oO0Oo Resident: are we dreaming now?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i'm pretty sure i'm awake :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: *pinches "self"*
    oO0Oo Resident: :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, have we determined what self is?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: have we deteremined that self is thought?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: do we see that self is the thinker and the thought being thunk?


         Lawrence was typing extensively, then poofed, so perhaps crashed, or the baby woke up :)

    oO0Oo Resident: In thinking about his question.. was considering how at times one identifies with sensations, sights, sounds, physical feelings, tastes etc, and that is not thought per se. Also emotions are not thoughts, but can be a hook for self I suppose.
    oO0Oo Resident: Play as being seems to be at times like an invitation to start at the final destination, of having answered these questions.. yet that destination being without concepts, the likes of which would might want to describe that final state. So a leap in a sense.. to open to possibly being, being playfully, without answers of any kind.
    oO0Oo Resident: OK.. having waited a little while, i feel confident Lawrence is not returning, so i will play as leaving now. ;)


    oO0Oo Resident: :)

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