Page last modified 23:03, 23 Jan 2012 by wol

*Wol Euler was guardian for this orphaned session. It was a truly lovely conversation, I am so pleased to have been there.*

Alfred Kelberry: woly! :)

Wol Euler: boxy :)

Alfred Kelberry: hi, sexy girl :)

Alfred Kelberry: been good? tired?

Wol Euler smiles.

Wol Euler: tired, got in from work half an hour or so ago

Wol Euler: just had a sandwich, made tea

Alfred Kelberry: ah, late

Alfred Kelberry: i'm having a pie with tea

Wol Euler: nice

Wol Euler: what kind of pie?

Wol Euler: sweet? savoury?

Alfred Kelberry: read an article on the german economy today - quite nice

Alfred Kelberry: caramel :)

Wol Euler: ah :)

Alfred Kelberry: http://lat.ms/xU7TAF

Alfred Kelberry: latimes

Wol Euler: interesting

Alfred Kelberry: in essence, a good shape of the german economy is due to german practicism :)

Wol Euler: true

Wol Euler: virtue is its own reward :)

Alfred Kelberry: lack of consumerism

Alfred Kelberry: yes

Alfred Kelberry: practicism is something i've always liked in germans

Wol Euler: they are a very practical people

Alfred Kelberry: that make good use of high taxes :)

Wol Euler: "high" is relative.

Wol Euler: the germans are happy to pay, on the whole, because they perceive that they are getting good value for money

Wol Euler: hello bruce

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol and Boxy.

--BELL--

Alfred Kelberry: sadly, in a sense, the rest of the eu (specifically the southern neighbors) been eating on german's dime all these years

Alfred Kelberry: bruce :)

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Bruce Mowbray listens.

Alfred Kelberry: me likes the bell. gives me time to chew my pie thoughtfully.

Wol Euler smiles.

Bruce Mowbray admires thoughtful chewing.

Alfred Kelberry: :)

Alfred Kelberry: you have something to chew on, bruce?

Bruce Mowbray: much, alas.

Alfred Kelberry: "let's chew this over dinner" :)

Bruce Mowbray: :)

Bruce Mowbray: Still "floating" with good feelings from Cal's Original Face session today.

Wol Euler: ah :)

Alfred Kelberry: ah, can you tell more?

Bruce Mowbray: Really can't say much more -- due to confidentiality issues...

Wol Euler: fair enough

Bruce Mowbray: except to say that it is a good experience for my soul - each week for two hours.

Bruce Mowbray: and that seems to be a shared feeling.

Bruce Mowbray: and has been for many months now.

Alfred Kelberry: in the days of facebook and g+ there is no such thing as confidentiality :)

Bruce Mowbray: But I have other "things to chew on," also.

Alfred Kelberry: i'm glad for you, bruce :) sounds lovely

Bruce Mowbray: I am very hesitant to enter into the dialogue regarding retreats.

Bruce Mowbray: (or whatever we're now calling those).

Wol Euler: why

Wol Euler: ?

Alfred Kelberry: ?

Alfred Kelberry: :)

Bruce Mowbray: well, mainly because I don't want to be mis-understood.

Alfred Kelberry: you will be if you don't speak up :)

Bruce Mowbray: heh heh.

Wol Euler: I've found speaking carefully and at sufficient length to be a solution to that :)

Alfred Kelberry: in fact, i look forward for your input

Bruce Mowbray: I will give it a try, Wol.

Wol Euler smiles.

Bruce Mowbray: and Boxy.

Wol Euler listens.

Bruce Mowbray: I do not feel that it is possible for folks who know each other - have shared several previous RL retreats together -- to come together without some sort of "structure."

Bruce Mowbray: even if that structure is unconscious.

Bruce Mowbray: I feel that it is a bit presumptuous to think that a retreat can be "unstructured."

Alfred Kelberry: good point

Bruce Mowbray wait for the shock to wear off.

Wol Euler listens.

Bruce Mowbray: thanks for listening, Wol.

Wol Euler smiles.

Bruce Mowbray: I was the only person in Halifax who had not met the others -- several times, in fact.

Alfred Kelberry: please do add that to the thread, bruce

Bruce Mowbray: kk.

Bruce Mowbray: You might soon see why I have been hesitant until now to join in.

Wol Euler: I remember that you were .. anxious is putting it too strongly. You had a certain hesitation and unease about joining the group

Wol Euler: because of that history

Bruce Mowbray: yes, I did.

Bruce Mowbray: and do, still.

Wol Euler: but you also did join :)

Bruce Mowbray: I tried to join in, yes.

Wol Euler: and were welcomed -- no you did!

Bruce Mowbray: I was most warmly welcomed, indeed.

Wol Euler: I don't wish to deny your lived experience, but my view of it was different

Alfred Kelberry: one would think that after 50 there's no hesitancy left :)

Bruce Mowbray: and I did join in -- (Useless to stop me - although no one wanted to do that....)

Alfred Kelberry: i'll have to wait and see

Wol Euler: nonsense, boxy, wait till you get there :-P

Bruce Mowbray: 50 years?

Bruce Mowbray: How about 70 years?

Alfred Kelberry: woly, my rationale being that experience and years make you value time more and you tend to act rather than hesitate

Wol Euler points to her previous statement :)

Alfred Kelberry: ok, ok :)

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Bruce Mowbray: So, concerning the "structure" stuff.

Wol Euler: right

Alfred Kelberry: i think i agree with you, bruce

Wol Euler: I think you are right, but I don't yet see what difference it makes

Wol Euler: because every meeting is structured

Wol Euler: when I meet friends for a drink in the evening, I know that different things will happen compared to when I meet them for a lunchtime meal

Alfred Kelberry: i haven't been to a retreat, but from what i heard, it does seem to carry a structure which is very supportive for the group

--BELL--

Wol Euler: I don't see that as a problem, I think it is just a fact of being human

Alfred Kelberry: yes, woly

Wol Euler: clearly it has more /different meaning for you, Bruce. could you say something about that?

Bruce Mowbray does not recall saying that it was a problem.

Alfred Kelberry: maybe it's worth to define what do we mean by "structure"

Wol Euler: I inferred from your statement that you felt it was an issue

Wol Euler: [13:23] Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I feel that it is a bit presumptuous to think that a retreat can be "unstructured."

Bruce Mowbray: What is an issue is my feeling that I might be misunderstood....

Wol Euler: ... about pointing to the inevitability of structure?

Alfred Kelberry: i think it's a fundumental issue with all humans :)

Wol Euler struggles to comprehend.

Bruce Mowbray: When we had the theme session on the Halifax retreat, you called on me to speak first....

Wol Euler nods.

Alfred Kelberry: pusher :P

Bruce Mowbray: recalling that I had been the first to arrive at the retreat and also the first to leave it.

Wol Euler: and also that we were IMing about the retreat at that moment :) as I recall

Bruce Mowbray: yes.

Bruce Mowbray: good memory!!

Wol Euler: I hope that wasn't unwelcome, but somebody had to start and you seemed to be in mid-flow :)

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Bruce Mowbray ponders "mid-flow."

Bruce Mowbray: kk.

Wol Euler: our conversation

Wol Euler: in IM

Alfred Kelberry: serendipity

Bruce Mowbray: yes.

Bruce Mowbray: I then stated that whatever my statements were about the retreat, they were not to be taken as "history" -- just my own reflections.

Wol Euler nods.

Bruce Mowbray: remember?

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Bruce Mowbray: kk.

Wol Euler: I remember being a little surprised by that

Bruce Mowbray: Then the "flow" passed to Pema,

Bruce Mowbray: who began his account by saying that the retreat had been "totally unstructured."

Wol Euler listens.

Alfred Kelberry: sounds like pema, yes :)

Bruce Mowbray: I truly believe that that was his "experience."

Bruce Mowbray: I respect his account as his experience.

Wol Euler: I presumed that he was comparing it to other retreats he'd been on, the kind where a bell rings at 5:30 am and every minute of the day is programmed for you in advance

Alfred Kelberry: eek

Bruce Mowbray: Well, I thought that he might be generalizing about all the previous PaB RL retreats that he'd been on.

Wol Euler: oh no, the others were very much like the one you attended :)

Bruce Mowbray: kk.

Wol Euler: there is a system, we sit and then talk, and then repeat using whatever subject came up in the talking

Alfred Kelberry: bruce, what parts of the "structure" did you like at halifax?

Bruce Mowbray: I liked ALL of it, Boxy.

Wol Euler smiles.

Bruce Mowbray: I was deeply honored to be included.

Alfred Kelberry: can you specify a few please?

Wol Euler: we were all delighted to have you there, you were a joy and an enrichment

Alfred Kelberry: i'm trying to sense your meaning of the structure here

Wol Euler: and I have no hesitation in using "we" in this context! :-P

Bruce Mowbray: In fact, I can't recall even in my life being among such accomplished people for such a long period of time.

Bruce Mowbray: ever*

Alfred Kelberry: :)

Wol Euler: hmmmmmmmmm

Alfred Kelberry: it's been a pleasure to be around woly and others for me too :)

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Bruce Mowbray: especially Woly, yes.

Wol Euler: I experienced it as improvised, we followed a system but the actual events arose naturally from what was said first

Wol Euler: awwwwww <3

Wol Euler blushes.

Bruce Mowbray: I will embarrass you again, Wol.

Alfred Kelberry: :)

Wol Euler giggles.

Bruce Mowbray: One of the most precious moments of the retreat came the last day. . .

Bruce Mowbray: when you came up to me from behind (while I was sitting at the dinner table)

Bruce Mowbray: and put your hands on my chest...

Wol Euler: I remember that.

Bruce Mowbray: and asked something about my being sad.

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Bruce Mowbray: I will never forget that.

Alfred Kelberry: aww, thoughtful woly

Wol Euler smiles warmly.

Alfred Kelberry: *recalls a similar moment with woly and yaku*

Bruce Mowbray: and then you said that it would truly be sad if I were not sad -- about the retreat's being over.

Wol Euler smiles.

Bruce Mowbray: but I was not sad about that.

Wol Euler listens.

Bruce Mowbray: I still have not sorted it all out.

Alfred Kelberry: *pats bruce's back*

Bruce Mowbray: All I "know" is that it had something to do with the mix of personality styles. . . and the history of those together in the group...

Bruce Mowbray: and perhaps my expectations.

Bruce Mowbray: and all of that is my responsibility for "dealing" with.

--BELL--

Wol Euler nods.

Alfred Kelberry: history and expectations. it's as if you talk about the past and the future, bruce :)

Bruce Mowbray: yes, Boxy. A mix.

Wol Euler nods.

Alfred Kelberry: where did the present go? :)

Bruce Mowbray: I feel that the retreat was also such a mix.

Wol Euler: that is true, we talked a lot about our pasts, there was much emotion in the air

Bruce Mowbray: indeed.

Bruce Mowbray: That was good, I felt.

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Bruce Mowbray: AHHH!

Bruce Mowbray: I just had an Ah HA!

Bruce Mowbray: experience.

Wol Euler: :)

Wol Euler: do tell

Alfred Kelberry: :)

Bruce Mowbray: The emotion inthe air!

Bruce Mowbray: That explains everything. . . (perhaps)!

Wol Euler smiles.

Bruce Mowbray: wow.

Bruce Mowbray ponders.... and remembers.

Alfred Kelberry: it sure is a good image if you ask me :)

Wol Euler: what are you thinking of now?

Bruce Mowbray: I am thinking of special moments.

Bruce Mowbray: A dog discovering the forest.

Bruce Mowbray: A child discovering the mist for the first time.

Wol Euler smiles and nods.

Alfred Kelberry: :)

Bruce Mowbray: A person crying... and the three children in the bathtub..

Bruce Mowbray: and vulnerability to love.

Bruce Mowbray: Wow.

Bruce Mowbray: remember, Wol?

Wol Euler takes your hand for a moment.

Wol Euler: I do.

Bruce Mowbray: thank you.

Wol Euler: to me those moments are every bit as important as whatever formal exercises we did

Wol Euler: if not more so

Bruce Mowbray: Powerful stuff happening in me right now.

Bruce Mowbray: those are my precious memories.

Wol Euler nods.

Wol Euler: when I think of the Halifax retreat, those talks on the verandah are what come to mind first

Bruce Mowbray: I remember say a quote from Rumi...

Bruce Mowbray: about how I felt miuch of the imte:

Bruce Mowbray: "Sit down and be quiet. You are drunk and nearing the edge of the cliff."

Bruce Mowbray: It is nearly impossible for me to be quiet.

Wol Euler chuckles.

Bruce Mowbray: so over the cliff I went.

Bruce Mowbray: in spite of myself.

Wol Euler: what did you find there?

Wol Euler: or what happened?

Bruce Mowbray: My soul.

Bruce Mowbray: Wounds are precious windows, of course.

Wol Euler nods.

Bruce Mowbray: I am feeling a sort of transformation.

Bruce Mowbray: A coming together of sense and nonsense..

Bruce Mowbray: a paradox...

Bruce Mowbray: a synchronicity.

Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.

Bruce Mowbray: Need to sit quietly with this.

Wol Euler smiles.

Bruce Mowbray: Too many narratives going on inside me for seven months.

Bruce Mowbray: Am I really all these stories?

Bruce Mowbray: Mmmmm.

Wol Euler: of course, and many more :)

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Bruce Mowbray: of course!

Wol Euler: :)

Bruce Mowbray: no resistance.

Wol Euler nods.

Bruce Mowbray: soul food.

Bruce Mowbray: THANK you both.

Wol Euler: thank you, bruce, I'm very glad you told us this

Bruce Mowbray: This has been better for me than you could know -- (or could you?)

Alfred Kelberry: :)

Wol Euler: take care

Wol Euler: sit gently with yourself, and with these parts of you

Bruce Mowbray: You too, Wol. You too, Boxy.

Alfred Kelberry: *clicks bruce's nose*

Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.

Wol Euler: wow

Alfred Kelberry: ah, that's sweet

Wol Euler: I'm so pleased.

Alfred Kelberry: yep

Alfred Kelberry: :)

Alfred Kelberry: you came here for a reason :)

Wol Euler: and to think that I nearly pressured him to continue with the definition of "structure"

Wol Euler: lucky us

Wol Euler: that I managed to shut my mouth

Alfred Kelberry: yes :)

Alfred Kelberry: have you played with the webaudio spec?

Wol Euler: nope

Wol Euler: well, not sure what you mean

--BELL--

Alfred Kelberry: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw-fil...ification.html

Wol Euler: ah, a HTML5 tool

Wol Euler: no, I've done nothing at all with HTML5

Alfred Kelberry: aww

Alfred Kelberry: it's really neat

Wol Euler: so I heard

Wol Euler: btw Zen just pinged me to say there's a disco at Perfect Paradise. Want to go dance?

Alfred Kelberry: i have a fun app idea for webaudio

Alfred Kelberry: sure

Wol Euler: off we go! I'll ask him for TPs

Alfred Kelberry: ok :)

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TylerCowen suggests we should be suspicious of stories:

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TEDx Manchester 2011 - Julian Baggini - Is There A Real You?

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