2012.01.23 13:00 - Am I really all these stories?

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    Wol Euler was guardian for this orphaned session. It was a truly lovely conversation, I am so pleased to have been there.


    Alfred Kelberry: woly! :)
    Wol Euler: boxy :)
    Alfred Kelberry: hi, sexy girl :)
    Alfred Kelberry: been good? tired?
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: tired, got in from work half an hour or so ago
    Wol Euler: just had a sandwich, made tea
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, late
    Alfred Kelberry: i'm having a pie with tea
    Wol Euler: nice
    Wol Euler: what kind of pie?
    Wol Euler: sweet? savoury?
    Alfred Kelberry: read an article on the german economy today - quite nice
    Alfred Kelberry: caramel :)
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    Alfred Kelberry: http://lat.ms/xU7TAF
    Alfred Kelberry: latimes
    Wol Euler: interesting
    Alfred Kelberry: in essence, a good shape of the german economy is due to german practicism :)
    Wol Euler: true
    Wol Euler: virtue is its own reward :)
    Alfred Kelberry: lack of consumerism
    Alfred Kelberry: yes
    Alfred Kelberry: practicism is something i've always liked in germans
    Wol Euler: they are a very practical people
    Alfred Kelberry: that make good use of high taxes :)
    Wol Euler: "high" is relative.
    Wol Euler: the germans are happy to pay, on the whole, because they perceive that they are getting good value for money
    Wol Euler: hello bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol and Boxy.


    Alfred Kelberry: sadly, in a sense, the rest of the eu (specifically the southern neighbors) been eating on german's dime all these years
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce :)
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Bruce Mowbray listens.
    Alfred Kelberry: me likes the bell. gives me time to chew my pie thoughtfully.
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Bruce Mowbray admires thoughtful chewing.
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: you have something to chew on, bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: much, alas.
    Alfred Kelberry: "let's chew this over dinner" :)
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Still "floating" with good feelings from Cal's Original Face session today.
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, can you tell more?
    Bruce Mowbray: Really can't say much more -- due to confidentiality issues...
    Wol Euler: fair enough
    Bruce Mowbray: except to say that it is a good experience for my soul - each week for two hours.
    Bruce Mowbray: and that seems to be a shared feeling.
    Bruce Mowbray: and has been for many months now.
    Alfred Kelberry: in the days of facebook and g+ there is no such thing as confidentiality :)
    Bruce Mowbray: But I have other "things to chew on," also.
    Alfred Kelberry: i'm glad for you, bruce :) sounds lovely
    Bruce Mowbray: I am very hesitant to enter into the dialogue regarding retreats.
    Bruce Mowbray: (or whatever we're now calling those).
    Wol Euler: why
    Wol Euler: ?
    Alfred Kelberry: ?
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: well, mainly because I don't want to be mis-understood.
    Alfred Kelberry: you will be if you don't speak up :)
    Bruce Mowbray: heh heh.
    Wol Euler: I've found speaking carefully and at sufficient length to be a solution to that :)
    Alfred Kelberry: in fact, i look forward for your input
    Bruce Mowbray: I will give it a try, Wol.
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Bruce Mowbray: and Boxy.
    Wol Euler listens.
    Bruce Mowbray: I do not feel that it is possible for folks who know each other - have shared several previous RL retreats together -- to come together without some sort of "structure."
    Bruce Mowbray: even if that structure is unconscious.
    Bruce Mowbray: I feel that it is a bit presumptuous to think that a retreat can be "unstructured."
    Alfred Kelberry: good point
    Bruce Mowbray wait for the shock to wear off.
    Wol Euler listens.
    Bruce Mowbray: thanks for listening, Wol.
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Bruce Mowbray: I was the only person in Halifax who had not met the others -- several times, in fact.
    Alfred Kelberry: please do add that to the thread, bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: kk.
    Bruce Mowbray: You might soon see why I have been hesitant until now to join in.
    Wol Euler: I remember that you were .. anxious is putting it too strongly. You had a certain hesitation and unease about joining the group
    Wol Euler: because of that history
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, I did.
    Bruce Mowbray: and do, still.
    Wol Euler: but you also did join :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I tried to join in, yes.
    Wol Euler: and were welcomed -- no you did!
    Bruce Mowbray: I was most warmly welcomed, indeed.
    Wol Euler: I don't wish to deny your lived experience, but my view of it was different
    Alfred Kelberry: one would think that after 50 there's no hesitancy left :)
    Bruce Mowbray: and I did join in -- (Useless to stop me - although no one wanted to do that....)
    Alfred Kelberry: i'll have to wait and see
    Wol Euler: nonsense, boxy, wait till you get there :-P
    Bruce Mowbray: 50 years?
    Bruce Mowbray: How about 70 years?
    Alfred Kelberry: woly, my rationale being that experience and years make you value time more and you tend to act rather than hesitate
    Wol Euler points to her previous statement :)
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, ok :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: So, concerning the "structure" stuff.
    Wol Euler: right
    Alfred Kelberry: i think i agree with you, bruce
    Wol Euler: I think you are right, but I don't yet see what difference it makes
    Wol Euler: because every meeting is structured
    Wol Euler: when I meet friends for a drink in the evening, I know that different things will happen compared to when I meet them for a lunchtime meal
    Alfred Kelberry: i haven't been to a retreat, but from what i heard, it does seem to carry a structure which is very supportive for the group


    Wol Euler: I don't see that as a problem, I think it is just a fact of being human
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, woly
    Wol Euler: clearly it has more /different meaning for you, Bruce. could you say something about that?
    Bruce Mowbray does not recall saying that it was a problem.
    Alfred Kelberry: maybe it's worth to define what do we mean by "structure"
    Wol Euler: I inferred from your statement that you felt it was an issue
    Wol Euler: [13:23] Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I feel that it is a bit presumptuous to think that a retreat can be "unstructured."
    Bruce Mowbray: What is an issue is my feeling that I might be misunderstood....
    Wol Euler: ... about pointing to the inevitability of structure?
    Alfred Kelberry: i think it's a fundumental issue with all humans :)
    Wol Euler struggles to comprehend.
    Bruce Mowbray: When we had the theme session on the Halifax retreat, you called on me to speak first....
    Wol Euler nods.
    Alfred Kelberry: pusher :P
    Bruce Mowbray: recalling that I had been the first to arrive at the retreat and also the first to leave it.
    Wol Euler: and also that we were IMing about the retreat at that moment :) as I recall
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.
    Bruce Mowbray: good memory!!
    Wol Euler: I hope that wasn't unwelcome, but somebody had to start and you seemed to be in mid-flow :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray ponders "mid-flow."
    Bruce Mowbray: kk.
    Wol Euler: our conversation
    Wol Euler: in IM
    Alfred Kelberry: serendipity
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.
    Bruce Mowbray: I then stated that whatever my statements were about the retreat, they were not to be taken as "history" -- just my own reflections.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Bruce Mowbray: remember?
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Bruce Mowbray: kk.
    Wol Euler: I remember being a little surprised by that
    Bruce Mowbray: Then the "flow" passed to Pema,
    Bruce Mowbray: who began his account by saying that the retreat had been "totally unstructured."
    Wol Euler listens.
    Alfred Kelberry: sounds like pema, yes :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I truly believe that that was his "experience."
    Bruce Mowbray: I respect his account as his experience.
    Wol Euler: I presumed that he was comparing it to other retreats he'd been on, the kind where a bell rings at 5:30 am and every minute of the day is programmed for you in advance
    Alfred Kelberry: eek
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, I thought that he might be generalizing about all the previous PaB RL retreats that he'd been on.
    Wol Euler: oh no, the others were very much like the one you attended :)
    Bruce Mowbray: kk.
    Wol Euler: there is a system, we sit and then talk, and then repeat using whatever subject came up in the talking
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, what parts of the "structure" did you like at halifax?
    Bruce Mowbray: I liked ALL of it, Boxy.
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Bruce Mowbray: I was deeply honored to be included.
    Alfred Kelberry: can you specify a few please?
    Wol Euler: we were all delighted to have you there, you were a joy and an enrichment
    Alfred Kelberry: i'm trying to sense your meaning of the structure here
    Wol Euler: and I have no hesitation in using "we" in this context! :-P
    Bruce Mowbray: In fact, I can't recall even in my life being among such accomplished people for such a long period of time.
    Bruce Mowbray: ever*
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Wol Euler: hmmmmmmmmm
    Alfred Kelberry: it's been a pleasure to be around woly and others for me too :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: especially Woly, yes.
    Wol Euler: I experienced it as improvised, we followed a system but the actual events arose naturally from what was said first
    Wol Euler: awwwwww <3
    Wol Euler blushes.
    Bruce Mowbray: I will embarrass you again, Wol.
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Wol Euler giggles.
    Bruce Mowbray: One of the most precious moments of the retreat came the last day. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: when you came up to me from behind (while I was sitting at the dinner table)
    Bruce Mowbray: and put your hands on my chest...
    Wol Euler: I remember that.
    Bruce Mowbray: and asked something about my being sad.
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Bruce Mowbray: I will never forget that.
    Alfred Kelberry: aww, thoughtful woly
    Wol Euler smiles warmly.
    Alfred Kelberry: *recalls a similar moment with woly and yaku*
    Bruce Mowbray: and then you said that it would truly be sad if I were not sad -- about the retreat's being over.
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Bruce Mowbray: but I was not sad about that.
    Wol Euler listens.
    Bruce Mowbray: I still have not sorted it all out.
    Alfred Kelberry: *pats bruce's back*
    Bruce Mowbray: All I "know" is that it had something to do with the mix of personality styles. . . and the history of those together in the group...
    Bruce Mowbray: and perhaps my expectations.
    Bruce Mowbray: and all of that is my responsibility for "dealing" with.


    Wol Euler nods.
    Alfred Kelberry: history and expectations. it's as if you talk about the past and the future, bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Boxy. A mix.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Alfred Kelberry: where did the present go? :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I feel that the retreat was also such a mix.
    Wol Euler: that is true, we talked a lot about our pasts, there was much emotion in the air
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed.
    Bruce Mowbray: That was good, I felt.
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Bruce Mowbray: AHHH!
    Bruce Mowbray: I just had an Ah HA!
    Bruce Mowbray: experience.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: do tell
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: The emotion inthe air!
    Bruce Mowbray: That explains everything. . . (perhaps)!
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Bruce Mowbray: wow.
    Bruce Mowbray ponders.... and remembers.
    Alfred Kelberry: it sure is a good image if you ask me :)
    Wol Euler: what are you thinking of now?
    Bruce Mowbray: I am thinking of special moments.
    Bruce Mowbray: A dog discovering the forest.
    Bruce Mowbray: A child discovering the mist for the first time.
    Wol Euler smiles and nods.
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: A person crying... and the three children in the bathtub..
    Bruce Mowbray: and vulnerability to love.
    Bruce Mowbray: Wow.
    Bruce Mowbray: remember, Wol?
    Wol Euler takes your hand for a moment.
    Wol Euler: I do.
    Bruce Mowbray: thank you.
    Wol Euler: to me those moments are every bit as important as whatever formal exercises we did
    Wol Euler: if not more so
    Bruce Mowbray: Powerful stuff happening in me right now.
    Bruce Mowbray: those are my precious memories.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: when I think of the Halifax retreat, those talks on the verandah are what come to mind first
    Bruce Mowbray: I remember say a quote from Rumi...
    Bruce Mowbray: about how I felt miuch of the imte:
    Bruce Mowbray: "Sit down and be quiet. You are drunk and nearing the edge of the cliff."
    Bruce Mowbray: It is nearly impossible for me to be quiet.
    Wol Euler chuckles.
    Bruce Mowbray: so over the cliff I went.
    Bruce Mowbray: in spite of myself.
    Wol Euler: what did you find there?
    Wol Euler: or what happened?
    Bruce Mowbray: My soul.
    Bruce Mowbray: Wounds are precious windows, of course.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Bruce Mowbray: I am feeling a sort of transformation.
    Bruce Mowbray: A coming together of sense and nonsense..
    Bruce Mowbray: a paradox...
    Bruce Mowbray: a synchronicity.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
    Bruce Mowbray: Need to sit quietly with this.
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Bruce Mowbray: Too many narratives going on inside me for seven months.
    Bruce Mowbray: Am I really all these stories?
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmmm.
    Wol Euler: of course, and many more :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: of course!
    Wol Euler: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: no resistance.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Bruce Mowbray: soul food.
    Bruce Mowbray: THANK you both.
    Wol Euler: thank you, bruce, I'm very glad you told us this
    Bruce Mowbray: This has been better for me than you could know -- (or could you?)
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Wol Euler: take care
    Wol Euler: sit gently with yourself, and with these parts of you
    Bruce Mowbray: You too, Wol. You too, Boxy.
    Alfred Kelberry: *clicks bruce's nose*
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
    Wol Euler: wow
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, that's sweet
    Wol Euler: I'm so pleased.
    Alfred Kelberry: yep
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: you came here for a reason :)
    Wol Euler: and to think that I nearly pressured him to continue with the definition of "structure"
    Wol Euler: lucky us
    Wol Euler: that I managed to shut my mouth
    Alfred Kelberry: yes :)
    Alfred Kelberry: have you played with the webaudio spec?
    Wol Euler: nope
    Wol Euler: well, not sure what you mean


    Alfred Kelberry: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw-fil...ification.html
    Wol Euler: ah, a HTML5 tool
    Wol Euler: no, I've done nothing at all with HTML5
    Alfred Kelberry: aww
    Alfred Kelberry: it's really neat
    Wol Euler: so I heard
    Wol Euler: btw Zen just pinged me to say there's a disco at Perfect Paradise. Want to go dance?
    Alfred Kelberry: i have a fun app idea for webaudio
    Alfred Kelberry: sure
    Wol Euler: off we go! I'll ask him for TPs
    Alfred Kelberry: ok :)

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    Well, that did it. I'm sobbing like a baby. :)
    Posted 20:41, 24 Jan 2012
    This treat, touching layers of encounter, depth of feeling, sensitivity, and association, possible and present within the PaB community. I wondered if these two TED talks which came to mind, would be interesting for readers, or those who took part in the conversation.

    TylerCowen suggests we should be suspicious of stories:

    TEDx Manchester 2011 - Julian Baggini - Is There A Real You?
    Posted 02:35, 26 Jan 2012
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