2012.01.24 13:00 - Information Ethics

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Korel Laloix. Eliza stole the log... hehe...



    Korel Laloix: Heya
    Korel Laloix: How you doing today?
    Sunfire Langer: pretty good, thank you. How about you?
    Korel Laloix: Having a lul at work.
    Sunfire Langer: Ah.. are you on lunchbreak now?
    Korel Laloix: So finaly getting some lunch and taking a break.
    Korel Laloix: My work allows me to be on SL during work if nohing is going on.
    Korel Laloix: I am sort of an overglorified receptionist for a firm that does most of its client relations via internet.
    Korel Laloix: wow... so lagged today.

    Sunfire Langer: Apparently, you're a personality that challenges me be able to hold my composure. Now that's interesting
    Sunfire Langer: 'Them's fightin' words!'
    Korel Laloix smiles
    Korel Laloix: Just something someone accused me of a while back.... and everyone around agreed.
    Korel Laloix: So thought it a fair warning.
    Sunfire Langer: bummer. Maybe it was them
    Korel Laloix: Could have been, I enjoy the company of other annoying people..... grins


    Sunfire Langer: I do too. I worry that I'm seen as too forceful a lot of the time. I kind of get impulsive in groups, sometimes speak before thinking. I'd like to not have such a big mouth.
    Korel Laloix: I have been accused of being pushy and overbearing before.
    Korel Laloix: But I don't appologies for it.
    Sunfire Langer: Could you explain why you don't apologise for it? I feel like I'm not being real when I apologise for it, but it'd be good to hear about a similar experience.
    Korel Laloix: Are lagging bad here at the momet?
    Sunfire Langer: a little

    Korel Laloix: Well, when I get together with my little gang RL, if I don't take control, they just sit aroud and no one makes a decision so we do nothing.
    Korel Laloix: And I can't stand that.... lol.
    Korel Laloix: Soo...... I just make up our minds and wait to see if I get any pushback.
    Korel Laloix: And most of the time I don't.
    Korel Laloix: SO it is functional a lot of the time.
    Korel Laloix: Sorry... can't see what I am typing until afer I hit enter.
    Sunfire Langer: Sounds like a natural leader
    Sunfire Langer: its fine, really
    Korel Laloix: Or pushy bitch.... grins
    Sunfire Langer laughs

    Korel Laloix: But I will also argue with somone until they at least recognize my point of view.
    Sunfire Langer: There's this great quote 'It is senseless to divide people into good or bad, people are either charming or they are tedious'.
    Korel Laloix: I don't demand agreement, but I do at least ask that you try to see things from my persepctive..... and the perspective of others involved as well.
    Sunfire Langer: Good, thats absolutely right that you do
    Korel Laloix: Do you know who said that?
    Sunfire Langer: Oscar Wilde, crazy gay irishman
    Korel Laloix: I have heard the name.

    Korel Laloix: And people find me most annoyoing becuase I dont fit their molds.
    Korel Laloix: A bunch of folks should be over soon, they are over at the house.
    Sunfire Langer: oh right, are those the ones I can see on my map?
    Korel Laloix: Yes.
    Korel Laloix: I am a wok so I just pop in here when I can.
    Korel Laloix: Interesting reading list.
    Korel Laloix: Bozho Lawrence.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hello
    Sunfire Langer: ty. Gday Lawrence
    Korel Laloix: Heya Visitor 1
    Sunfire Langer: Hello sweetheart
    Visitor 1: hi love
    Visitor 1: hello korei
    Korel Laloix: What is everyone up to today?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: not much.


    Lawrence Vyceratops: day off-relaxng
    Korel Laloix: Not going to have ay of those for a while.
    Korel Laloix: Classes are back in.
    Korel Laloix: So not a lot of free time for a bit.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: ah.

    Sunfire Langer: What's on your mind lately, Lawrence?
    Korel Laloix: Anyone have topic the want to look at today?

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Same thing as always, I suppose...
    Sunfire Langer: Ah, sex, status and impending death, then ;-)
    Korel Laloix: All can be fun.

    Korel Laloix: I had an interesting conversation yesterday.
    Sunfire Langer: Hopefuly not all at the same time :-/
    Lawrence Vyceratops: haha

    Korel Laloix: I am seeing a librarian at the moment.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: deeper than that, though
    Sunfire Langer: fantastic
    Korel Laloix: And we got to talking about ethics......
    Korel Laloix: And how her job is to help people get information.
    Korel Laloix: But what are the limits of that?
    Korel Laloix: Pornograpy?
    Korel Laloix: SHoud she help somone that keeps looking up terrorist sites?
    Korel Laloix: Hate speach content?
    Korel Laloix: No right or rong answer, but part of her proffesional reading.
    Korel Laloix: Any thoughts?

    Sunfire Langer: I think looking at is fine makin it yourself is very bad
    Korel Laloix: I had never really given that much attention.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: she helps people Google? i don't understand..
    Korel Laloix: lol... In some cases yes..... she does teach the intro to research class and she des have some returning adult students that have never been on a computer.
    Korel Laloix: Sorry, so lagged I can't see whatI am typing until after I hit return.

    Lawrence Vyceratops: She is wondering the limits? I suppose she should ask the owner of the library if she is uncertain about her own judgment
    Korel Laloix: She is not wondering.
    Korel Laloix: It is just a boundary question.
    Korel Laloix: THere are policies of course.

    Korel Laloix: But are those policies really ethical?
    Korel Laloix: Or just politically and legally convenient?

    Sunfire Langer: I think everything should be made available to adults - yes, something could be disgusting, but be public about it and let people find out for themselves, censorring only really helps children
    Lawrence Vyceratops: ethics are subjective to personal opinions
    Sunfire Langer: can find*

    Korel Laloix: Yes, they are.... but what do you do if your job makes you make what are essentially decisions based on ethical judegements.
    Korel Laloix: Especially when those judgement are givin to you by an institution?
    Sunfire Langer: Ethics aren't purely subjective though, they are shared by communities. Not to be a relativist, but there is an 'objective' standard of ethics



    Korel Laloix: I agree.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: she'd either have to make the choice herself or consult the bosses.
    Korel Laloix: She really does not have to with the collection she manages.
    Korel Laloix: But the ones that particularly oversee the internet part do have to deal with it in some locations.

    Korel Laloix: I just found it an interesting set of questions.
    Korel Laloix: How a lot of professsions and fields have their own ethical questions that might be unique.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: of course
    Lawrence Vyceratops: unfortunately, most ethics based on money
    Korel Laloix: I think that does play a bit part.
    Korel Laloix: Being "fair" in the dominant system.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: "fair" indeed... ha
    Korel Laloix: So if the system is equitable, then "ethical" decisions in that frame are not.
    Korel Laloix: is not equitable
    Lawrence Vyceratops: obviously
    Sunfire Langer: Thanks to Locke, money and possession are enshrined, made holy in Law. But ethics is seperate to law, they meet i some places nd not others

    Korel Laloix: It sounds so esy when we say it like that.
    Korel Laloix: Going to pop over to the other meeting.
    Korel Laloix: Take care all.
    Korel Laloix: do na da go hv i
    Lawrence Vyceratops: reminds me of a clip i saw of bill maher, or whatever his name, about SOPA
    Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: by, Korel
    Visitor 1: hellbye korel
    Korel Laloix: Ciao
    Lawrence Vyceratops: brb
    Visitor 1: k lawrence


    Sunfire Langer: Hello Eliza
    Visitor 1: hi elixza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Visitor 1e, Sunfire, Lawrence
    Eliza Madrigal: Visitor 1e, I don't think we've met...
    Eliza Madrigal: has someone introduced the group and let you know about the recording?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oops (sorry bell)
    Sunfire Langer: Nobody has taken it up, Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks Sunfire
    Visitor 1: no we havwent...
    Visitor 1: nice to meet u eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: It is important to know that we record the sessions and place them on a public wiki, very nice to meet you too! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: however if uncomfortable with that, we can change your name to "visitor" in the log this time
    Bertram Jacobus: sorry - i´m only showing a friend sl - so i continue walking around ... ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Hi Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: hi there eliza ... :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and bye ...
    Eliza Madrigal waves
    Bertram Jacobus waves back ... :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: I've just given you a note about the group Visitor 1e so you can catch up if you like to

    Eliza Madrigal: interesting topics today before I came?
    Visitor 1: ty .. ys i will read it
    Sunfire Langer: A little on the ethics of making hate-speech websites available to view
    Eliza Madrigal: hm
    Eliza Madrigal: due to sopa/pipa?
    Sunfire Langer: So glad it got withdrawn...
    Sunfire Langer: Yeehah!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes me too
    Eliza Madrigal: there is something called ACTA that not many seem aware of...
    Eliza Madrigal: and I have to admit I'm not up on the details there
    Eliza Madrigal: international, that one
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hello. back :)
    Sunfire Langer: yes, but making viewing an unnapproved site a crime or offense, thats too much like thought-crime
    Eliza Madrigal: wb Lawrence :)
    Visitor 1: wb lawrence
    Eliza Madrigal: I agree... it is uncomfortable that kids are exposed to so much so early on but we can't close the flow....
    Sunfire Langer: I said earlier, censorship only really helps children. It hurts adults
    Eliza Madrigal: dangerous for the future really... would be like people turning out lights
    Sunfire Langer: or book-burning
    Eliza Madrigal: nods

    Eliza Madrigal: better to educate critical thinking than to censor
    Eliza Madrigal: have you seen that there are interesting classes in Humane Education going on now?
    Eliza Madrigal: in SL I mean... they are very informative and interactive

           [ See: Saturday's Solutionary class is today's headline in Metaverse Tribune!http://tiny.cc/5pmws ]


    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Visitor 3
    Visitor 1: everyone this is my sister Visitor 2

    Sunfire Langer: If something is awful, let people see it for themselves - that's respectful, that's democratic, thats productive. Deeming some things 'forbidden' is a backward step, I strongly believe this, Eliza

    Visitor 2: hi guys
    Eliza Madrigal: Pleasure to meet you
    Sunfire Langer: Hello Visitor 2 ! :)
    Visitor 2: im rezzing
    Visitor 2: i cant see anyone..LOL
    Eliza Madrigal: Visitor 2 I'll give you a note about the group in a moment...
    Visitor 1: i see u sis
    Eliza Madrigal: no worries, you are walking on your sister's shoulders
    Visitor 1: lol
    Visitor 2: heheeh
    Sunfire Langer: you're stood on her head XD
    Visitor 1: ahahah ouch !
    Eliza Madrigal: it is how we get to know one another in SL, haha
    Visitor 1 holds out her hand to sunshine
    Eliza Madrigal: Not sure if you got the note, Visitor 2?
    Visitor 1: everyone on my list seems to be crashing

    Sunfire Langer holds his love's hand 'Lol, is sunshine my new nickname?'
    Visitor 1: lol
    Visitor 1: u r my sunshine
    Eliza Madrigal: people were crashing at the dream workshop I was at before too, so maybe SL has issues today
    Visitor 1: u see how tired i am !!! i make up names
    Sunfire Langer: when skies are grey etc...
    Visitor 1 smiles at sunfire
    Visitor 1: oh gosh.. she crashed
    Eliza Madrigal: the notecard sent her over the edge I guess


    Visitor 1: hhee
    Visitor 1: i get her back
    Eliza Madrigal: Wb Visitor 2 :)
    Visitor 1: wb sis
    Visitor 2: lag
    Visitor 1: can u jump onto the cusion
    Visitor 1: ohhhh done !
    Eliza Madrigal: yay
    Eliza Madrigal: ::;cheers:::
    Visitor 1: ive not been heret oday
    Eliza Madrigal: Visitor 2 we record our sessions and place them on a public wiki as a way to keep continuity... do you mind being included in those logs?

    Eliza Madrigal: we've been doing that for almost 4 years now...quite a history
    Eliza Madrigal: aw
    Visitor 1: dam poor Visitor 2
    Sunfire Langer: congratulations, my institute died after 18 months :(
    Eliza Madrigal: not going on anymore Sun?
    Eliza Madrigal: what happened?
    Eliza Madrigal: 18 months is pretty strong actually for workshops
    Eliza Madrigal: wb Visitor 2, you are persistent! Hope you can stay this time
    Visitor 1: ahh shes back
    Visitor 2: well 3 time.. i gave up,lol
    Visitor 1: honestely
    Sunfire Langer: Its just lost all its traffic. It got attacked by a few notorious avatars and bit by bit ground down. Philosophy Island, you might've heard some of the story already, Eliza
    Visitor 1: ReD keeps crashign too sis
    Eliza Madrigal: actually no I hadn't, sorry to hear that
    Eliza Madrigal: I didn't attend philosophy sessions for a long time
    Eliza Madrigal: have just started going back to a few lately

    Visitor 1: i am sorry but i need to go to rl ! was lovely to meet u eliza and lawrence
    Visitor 1: Visitor 2 i will see u tomorrow i hope you manage to stay
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to meet you Visitor 1e, did you make a decision re the recording?
    Visitor 1: i will enjoy listening
    Visitor 1: so next time ! let me read your note too ... its a bit of a rush tongiht

    Eliza Madrigal: hope you'll come again :))
    Eliza Madrigal: OK we're here 3 times a day 1,7,1,7...
    Eliza Madrigal: though the 1ams don't always have a host
    Visitor 1: ohh excelelnt
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: bye, Visitor 1.
    Eliza Madrigal: have a lovely night (day?) :)
    Visitor 1 wavves

    Lawrence Vyceratops: i had run off again.... did i miss the convo? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: a little... were discussing the discussion forum pattens of SL
    Lawrence Vyceratops: SL basically, to me, seems like an animated chat room :)

    Eliza Madrigal: for topical workshops, most of ours have had about a 2 year run... so there does seem some general limit before something wants to change
    Eliza Madrigal: dream workshop though, has gone on almost the whole time
    Eliza Madrigal: you don't think it matters to have a body here Lawrence?
    Sunfire Langer: in these circles very much so, Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: eh. either way
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi, al
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy :)
    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Sunfire do you think having a body matters in a discussion?
    Eliza Madrigal: (lawrence doesn't feel SL is much different than a chat room boxy)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: :)
    Sunfire Langer: The avatar tells you a lot about the user - its a visceral insight into how that psychology chooses to present itself. A buxom woman, a werewolf, a cardboard box-bot as examples. Other than that, the only other thing is a kind of body language, where the user places their avatar, which is significant, Eliza


    Eliza Madrigal: I never thought about it in one way as just now... which is that I'd never hang around in an empty chat room...
    Eliza Madrigal: but I often come to SL and am contentedly alone

    Sunfire Langer: It's a bit like a MMORPG
    Eliza Madrigal: nods, except there are a billion games going on not just one...haha
    Eliza Madrigal: joking :) I'm not a gamer but I took to SL easily
    Sunfire Langer: I heard 'games' in the sense of transactional analysis, there
    Eliza Madrigal: yes perhaps... was a little hasty with my joke... I guess for me SL and specifically PaB is somewhere I look at my own thinking...
    Eliza Madrigal: often dropping games I didn't know I was playing

    Eliza Madrigal: Well nice to see you Sun, and Lawrence (if here) :)), and Boxy ( if here too)
    Sunfire Langer: nice to chat, Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: yes you too, be well :)
    Eliza Madrigal: bye for now
    Lawrence Vyceratops: everyone gone

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