2012.01.24 19:00 - Couldn't Be Simpler

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    Eliza and oO0Oo hosted this session for Eos whose Internet connection was sketchy. :)

         To the extent that we get better in dropping what we have,
    can we begin to see what we are?  And does it even make sense to
    ask that question?  Can we learn to see what is, beyond all the
    many layers of properties and attributes that we have? - Pema
    Unpublished: Initial Outline of PaB )
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm I left a few things around...
    oO0Oo Resident waves.. Hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Samúð :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Lawrence :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi asll
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Lawrence, Eos
    Lawrence Vyceratops: all
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, Eos may not be able to sign on...
    Eliza Madrigal: I'll grab the log just in case
    Lawrence Vyceratops: okies
    Eliza Madrigal: wb Sam... maybe no Eos tonight... internet issues...
    Eliza Madrigal: cute skirt btw :)
    oO0Oo Resident: ty.. yess crashed out of the blue myself.. Usually associated with my flash browser plug-in.. but not this time.

    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi multi
    Multiverse1 Resident: Hi Lawrence
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Multi
    Multiverse1 Resident: Hi Eliza ans Samuo as well
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Multi
    Lawrence Vyceratops: when we play as being, is there something we are tryng to get at?
    Eliza Madrigal: good question :)
    Eliza Madrigal: my sense of playing as being is more that there is nothing to get and that play then is a celebration of completeness...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, when we play as being, is there something which we are attempting to observe?
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting too... what do you think?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i am curious to know what is meant by play and being.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: play generally implies pretend. does it in this case?
    Multiverse1 Resident: I think Eliza hit the mark, with, there is nothing to get, or as some say here, the dropping of oneself.
    Eliza Madrigal: actually pretend has factored into an exploration of Being for many
    Eliza Madrigal: but doesn't necessarily imply such
    Lawrence Vyceratops: why do some say the "dropping of oneself"?
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe looking at our own experiences is most helpful
    Lawrence Vyceratops: are experiences integral to being?
    Eliza Madrigal: What is your feeling about that?

    Lawrence Vyceratops: about experiences being integral to being?
    Eliza Madrigal: sure, well, what is your sense of Being?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: being requires thought. such as being american, being buddhist, and so on. experience is the basis of this.
    Eliza Madrigal: right, on the level of being something
    Eliza Madrigal: If not some thing, then what is left?
    oO0Oo Resident thinks there is experience of being without being something
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, when we play as being, are we playing as being american, hindu, russian, etc?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes Sam?
    oO0Oo Resident: personal experience is the starting point.. really our only reference point... then allowing broadly for what arises.. one can experience the precursors to conceptualization.. the additive effects that lead to "something".. but first there is just raw isness or maybe being, or reality even
    oO0Oo Resident: not trying to be dogmatic there .. just one view
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what is experience? shall we investigate?
    Eliza Madrigal: so raw isness you would see as simply being?
    oO0Oo Resident: good question.. i think so yes..
    oO0Oo Resident: maybe it becomes word play
    oO0Oo Resident: how to label the unlabelable
    Lawrence Vyceratops: is experience based on memory?
    oO0Oo Resident: what would you say Lawrence?
    oO0Oo Resident: wb Multi
    Lawrence Vyceratops: experience, say, of a music show, for instance, is based on our memory or music and the memory of feelings and emotions, right?
    Eliza Madrigal: welcome back Multiverse
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi, Multi
    Multiverse1 Resident: crashed
    oO0Oo Resident: I feel that to reflect on or talk about experience, memory is necessary.. but not to experience itself
    Lawrence Vyceratops: being is also based on memory. is experience=being?
    Eliza Madrigal: that seems too categorical to me ... think my sense is similar in that memory seems a clothing and experience a doorway but neither would be 'Being', though Being would be both
    Lawrence Vyceratops: if there is no memory or sensation, concepts, etc., what is experience?
    oO0Oo Resident: hmmm.. not sure being is based on memory for myself...

    Lawrence Vyceratops: sensation is memory in the body, concepts memory in the mind. without those what is experience?
    Multiverse1 Resident: being exists without us being there
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what do you mean, Multi?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi, Tess
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tess :)
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Tess
    oO0Oo Resident: [19:46] Lawrence Vyceratops: sensation is memory in the body, concepts memory in the mind.
    Multiverse1 Resident: it is not somrthing you can teach someone either Larence
    oO0Oo Resident: What do you base that on Lawrence?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: memory
    Eliza Madrigal: my feeling is that we have this experience of being buddhist or christian or a dog walker or a house keeper or, all those things.. none of these are what we are, in a larger sense, but each of these might be a way to encounter to what we are
    oO0Oo Resident: Sounds like an AI response
    Lawrence Vyceratops: ok. without sensation or concepts, what is experience?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: is sensation and concepts necessary for experiences?
    Tess Aristocrat: Good question :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Lawrence may I ask where your questions are coming from, in a personal way?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what do you mean?
    oO0Oo Resident: What is motivating you to ask them?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes wondering your personal experience of experience. :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: ah. because people are so contradictory, especially when it comes to observing what is real. so, i ask, "is it real?"
    Tess Aristocrat: Yes, it is real.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: this places seems to be a placve where those who are serious come to enquire into reality
    oO0Oo Resident: Perhaps you have a less contradictory experience to share Lawrence?
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed so, and into the reality right where we are
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i would like us to share. that is a good word. share what is common and not personal.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: personal experience has little to no value. truth has great value., truth should be common to us all.
    Tess Aristocrat: Curiosity..to see if others feel the way I do
    Eliza Madrigal: there is sort of the information level of things, and then sharing personally which perhaps allows for a wider creativity
    Lawrence Vyceratops: for instance, we are all aware of what pain is, what suffering is, we are all familiar with rain and aut`omoobiles
    Eliza Madrigal: both are useful, agree, but in this case was curiou
    Multiverse1 Resident: the truth is all based on the observer, it is different based on view
    Eliza Madrigal: *curious as to whether we can share from both
    Tess Aristocrat: agrees with this :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so i ask is sensation and concepts are necessary for experience?

    Tess Aristocrat: Can you think of an experience where either would not be?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: no
    Eliza Madrigal: found a page that speaks to earlier questions quite well... though too long to just quote...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, is experience based on memory? sensation being the memory of the body and concepts the memory of mind
    Eliza Madrigal: toward the bottom Pema is describing in a longer way, what resonates for me with Sam's "raw isness" which would seem something like hm... base presence
    Eliza Madrigal:
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what is meant by raw isness?
    Tess Aristocrat: I would say yes, Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, is memory not the past? and therefore, experience is based on the past?
    oO0Oo Resident: Feels a bit sort of hmm underground didactics and confirmation bias Lawrence.. Maybe there is just an urge to corner terms to support a view you hold? Would you like to just explain the view you hold instead?
    Tess Aristocrat: Memory is thoughts recorded of the past. Not always the exact way it happened, just the way 'you' may have remembered it.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: ok i will try
    Lawrence Vyceratops: while keeping an eye on the little one ;)\
    Tess Aristocrat: Ah, bedtime calls, goodnight to you all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Tess :)
    Multiverse1 Resident: night Tess
    oO0Oo Resident waves to Tess
    Lawrence Vyceratops: experience is based on memory. being is also based on memory. in being, we rely on the past. in so, doing, we fail to see what is now, what is actual.
    Multiverse1 Resident: as Eliza said, it is our vision of what the past was
    Multiverse1 Resident: we all have different pastss, present and futures
    Lawrence Vyceratops: this is fine for conceptualization, but in this form, it is meaningless. however, if we all question, then it becomes something deeper
    Multiverse1 Resident: my past is not Samuos
    Multiverse1 Resident: I see no direction in the arrow of time Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i don't know what you mean, exactly
    Multiverse1 Resident: well, time is relative to space
    Multiverse1 Resident: Pema gave a good example the other day
    Multiverse1 Resident: it was about watching a stone fly through the air
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Esteban, welcome to Play as Being :)
    Esteban Voljeti: thanks
    Esteban Voljeti: hi everyone
    Multiverse1 Resident: Where once the stone was it now was not, only a memory of itself
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi Esteban
    Eliza Madrigal: I apologize for ducking out now, but we've been having a discussion of 'what is playing as being' and 'what is experience'
    Multiverse1 Resident: Hi Estaban
    oO0Oo Resident: Welcome Esteban
    Esteban Voljeti: ty
    Eliza Madrigal: One thing though.... I meant to tell you that we record each session...
    Eliza Madrigal: have a public wiki. Is it OK to include you there?
    Multiverse1 Resident: sorry Eliza, had an interuption.
    Esteban Voljeti: sure np
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I don't quite follow, Multi..
    Eliza Madrigal: :) great, thanks! Have a lovely night everyone
    Lawrence Vyceratops: night, Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: See you again Esteban, Lawrence, Multi, 0 :)
    oO0Oo Resident: Bye Eliza

    Multiverse1 Resident: well the stone has no past or future in that regard, only it's present state. We are the same, but do not see ourselves as being that simple

    Multiverse1 Resident: it moves through the air and it's future becomes it's past, each and every step of the way
    Lawrence Vyceratops: because we hold onto our concepts of being chinese, democrat, christian, liberal, etc...
    Multiverse1 Resident: and in each step it is present
    Lawrence Vyceratops: yes, now is present.
    Multiverse1 Resident: I do not hold those particular separations amoungst the true collective of humanity Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: that is good
    Multiverse1 Resident: and now that present is past, and a new present has replaced the past. and will again in the near future
    Multiverse1 Resident: so we are all present always
    Lawrence Vyceratops: of course. so are we present when we are being?
    Multiverse1 Resident: thus the directionlessness of what appears to be time, for me at least
    Multiverse1 Resident: yes, we have to be present then to be
    Esteban Voljeti: (ty for the card)=
    Lawrence Vyceratops: but isn't being based on the past?
    Multiverse1 Resident: you seemed to relate this to concepts and experience of the past or memories. To me it is merely, the here and now, which was then and will be the future whenever it occurs
    Multiverse1 Resident: it is a freedom from concept, time and experience
    Multiverse1 Resident: some call it nothingness, or the absence of being
    Lawrence Vyceratops: how do you apply that to everyday living?
    Esteban Voljeti: (sorry to interrupt, and thanks for having me this first time... see you soon)
    Multiverse1 Resident: I do not care about the piddly things that encompass day to day events of this world Lawrence. Perhaps that may seem cruel, but I only do what I can. I cannot solve world famine or stop a war or anything close to that
    Multiverse1 Resident: I can only live in as peaceful a world as I can have it be around me.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: bye, Esteban
    Multiverse1 Resident: Bye Estaban
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Multi, is there an example you can give to illustrate how one can actually live in that manner of awareness??
    Multiverse1 Resident: So, Lawrence, do you think that a small group can change the direction of all humanity?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: if a person can change, then all humanity can change.
    Multiverse1 Resident: You must be the stone, and all of the observers watching it each and every step of the way, from every angle, including from the inside out, before it is born , and after it is no more.
    Multiverse1 Resident: then be the one who threw it, and the shore that it lands upon
    Lawrence Vyceratops: waht i am basically trying to point out is that people all over the world, expecially in regard to religion, philosophy, and politics and even science, make truth out to be some mystical, magical thing that is only acheiveable through great effort.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: we speak through metaphors and fantastical concepts to attempt to define this great mystery.
    Multiverse1 Resident: you cannot box yourself into this humanity, of being the supreme being, for we are asthe stone unto the earth
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i'm saying, it's not so mystical.
    Multiverse1 Resident: and I agree, it is very simplistic indeed

    Multiverse1 Resident: how do we know to form fingers or toes when but a zygote
    Lawrence Vyceratops: dna. memory of the body
    Multiverse1 Resident: not memory, if the body has not yet formed.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: bodies before
    Multiverse1 Resident: memory of another body, yes
    Lawrence Vyceratops: the human body
    Multiverse1 Resident: in our case yes. In the case of an ant, an ants body
    Lawrence Vyceratops: yes
    Multiverse1 Resident: we are not so special, you see
    Multiverse1 Resident: though we think we are such
    Lawrence Vyceratops: precisely. which is what the priests and the gurus try to be... special
    Multiverse1 Resident: some yes, but not all

    Lawrence Vyceratops: also what many followers try to be by practicing meditation and such
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, how does one see this actuality in daily life?
    Multiverse1 Resident: as Eliza said, you cannot fool yourself into trully pretending to be something that you are not. I am not a bumblebee for example, and no I don't think I am either. But I think you understand my meaning
    Lawrence Vyceratops: it is common for people to discuss this theoritcally or intellectually when we meet like this, but how does one live in daily life with this awareness?
    Multiverse1 Resident: you walk each day as the 1st, trust in your heart and follow the path of the stone
    Lawrence Vyceratops: as we commonly pretend to be something ;)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: that seems quite metaphoric. can you give a more concrete example?
    Multiverse1 Resident: do'n't try too hard or you will miss it. As in the forced meditations and such you inferred to,
    Multiverse1 Resident: I treat the world as part of myself, not separate from it.
    Multiverse1 Resident: allot like the native american or other belief systems
    Multiverse1 Resident: don't fight nature, be a part of it.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: is following a belief system living in the now or based on the past?
    Multiverse1 Resident: for me it is the here and now.
    Multiverse1 Resident: There is no past or future, only present
    Multiverse1 Resident: we plan things so well, the structure of our Utopia
    Lawrence Vyceratops: utopia is future
    Multiverse1 Resident: There are simply too many varied views, my utopia is the present
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i don't know what you mean..
    Multiverse1 Resident: why change what the world has given me?
    Multiverse1 Resident: I will take it as it arises, and try to influence what I can
    Multiverse1 Resident: I am not a god nor are any of us. Why try to be one?
    Multiverse1 Resident: Accept what is, and move in our present throughout time and space.
    Multiverse1 Resident: 145,987 years from now Lawrence, this conversation will become inconsequential to the universe, or earth even.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: difficult to follow what you are saying...

    Multiverse1 Resident: our civilization has been on this planet, how long?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: 10,000 years? i'm not sure...
    Multiverse1 Resident: 40,000 years maybe, civilized not one day of it.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i mean it's difficult to follow what you are saying because you seem to jump from one thing to the next very quickly....
    Multiverse1 Resident: I do think rather quickly. Much faster than I can type, and at times 600 thoughts per second
    Multiverse1 Resident: I am sorry, I cannot communicate more clearly
    Lawrence Vyceratops: that's not exactly what i meant....
    Multiverse1 Resident: I do think a bit differently than most, I'm told
    Lawrence Vyceratops: probably not.
    Multiverse1 Resident: For instance, here and in real life, I often try and picture the roots growing beneath the surface of the soil. And to trace them downward and from the view of the leaves and bark of the tree
    Multiverse1 Resident: and then see how many insects live within the trees bounds
    Multiverse1 Resident: and see the rings grow from year to year
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i understand. how many bricks are in that church?
    Multiverse1 Resident: haha
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i have to go now.
    Multiverse1 Resident: I often ask my friends that of real buildings
    Multiverse1 Resident: we then proceed to estimate
    Multiverse1 Resident: Ok Lawrence, it has been a pleasure
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i will see you later
    Multiverse1 Resident: sorry I was interupted at the start
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    A good cross reference for this session is:

    Posted 13:10, 25 Jan 2012
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