2012.01.29 13:00 – Wherefore Wu Wei?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

    Pila India: greetings        
    Eliza Madrigal: Greetings Pila :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Stevenaia :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: another Pila? Ye!
    Eliza Madrigal: (and Hello Aph when you return)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Korel :)
    Pila India: with things so crashy I have in alt in every venue :)
    Eliza Madrigal watches avies flooding in, must be excited for the topic
    stevenaia Michinaga: it even looks like Pila
    Korel Laloix: Bozho
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves from outside of San Francisco
    Eliza Madrigal: How lovely :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm :))
    Pila India: cool Steve
    Storm Nordwind: Hi all :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello everyone!
    Korel Laloix: Heya
    stevenaia Michinaga: says you are busy Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: There
    Eliza Madrigal: "unavailable friend of Being"
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Aphrodite Macbain: I am no longer busy
    Aphrodite Macbain: Did anyone get a chance to read my email?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila India: no :)
    Korel Laloix: Sorry no.
    Korel Laloix: Please do tell.
    Aphrodite Macbain: OK I've made a note card
    Korel Laloix: wado
    Aphrodite Macbain: I hope you have received them
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi nice people
    Korel Laloix: Sorta fun.
    Korel Laloix: Heya
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi nice person
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's really good to see you all here
    Pila India: thanks for the note card
    stevenaia Michinaga: thank you Aph, a nice summary
    Aphrodite Macbain: Quotes from the Wiki: “Wu wei is an important concept of Taoism (Daoism), that involves knowing when to act and when not to act. Another perspective to this is that "Wu Wei" means natural action - as planets revolve around the sun, they "do" this revolving, but without "doing" it; or as trees grow, they "do", but without "doing". Thus knowing when (and how) to act is not knowledge in the sense that one would think "now" is the right time to do "this", but rather just doing it, doing the natural thing.”

    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm still trying to figure it out.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm not sure what it truly means.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is it simply “doing what comes naturally”?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Pila, Storm, Eliza?
    Pila India is going to log out and become a cloud using text chat -- too much lag :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: OK. Thanks Pila. Good luck
    stevenaia Michinaga: when I first heard of it (here) it seems like the perfectly fitted suit
    Aphrodite Macbain: smiles

    Pila India: hi
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb Pila
    Pila India: ty

    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)

    Pila India: hi Bruce
    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy too :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi bruce, boxy :)

    Bruce Mowbray waves 'hello' to everyone and listens to catch the drift about wu wei.

    Korel Laloix: We were sort of talking about this at the last session.
    Aphrodite Macbain: You were? Please tell us more

    Korel Laloix: Well.. sorta. I was suggested a video to watch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vld-gzQVE0Y And it talks about a theory called morphic resonance. So related, but not the same thing I think...
    stevenaia Michinaga: for a long time I have felt Wu Wei w/o knowing it had been named
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Pila India: Aph, one way to envision wu wei is to imagine a master wood cutter at work -- not doing anything unnecessary but making a beautiful result
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems someone has thought longer about it for a very long time
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: wu wei is about drifting, isn't it?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: drifting, hmm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: seems to me to be flowing with, like being part of it rather than drifting
    Pila India: yes Sharon, I agree

    Alfred Kelberry: so, the topic is wuff wei? :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Boxy
    Bruce Mowbray: woof we?
    Aphrodite Macbain: wuff wei
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Boxy
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Korel Laloix:

    Aphrodite Macbain: what is morphic resonance?
    Bruce Mowbray: Sheldrake -- morphic resonance.
    Eliza Madrigal: there are times when life takes on a quality that is assuring, as though one is in receptive mode and can sort of go along... follow natural openings
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hard to know what is "natural"
    Korel Laloix: Why does it matter if it is natural?
    Korel Laloix: SL is not natural.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no, sl isn’t

    Alfred Kelberry: aph, from your email, how is it that trees grow without doing it?
    Aphrodite Macbain: How do you know they don’t?
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems there are so many metaphors for wu wei, eventually one will inform you of its meaning
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe it is a natural expression of humanity's longing to connect :)
    Alfred Kelberry: aph, you said so describing wu wei
    Aphrodite Macbain: I would think all NON conscious beings weasily follow wu wei
    Aphrodite Macbain: would easily!
    Korel Laloix: weasily... smiles
    Storm Nordwind smiles at the weasel :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I knew you all would, sigh

    Alfred Kelberry: i think the planets metaphor was very good-BELL--

    Aphrodite Macbain: I like this poem:
            “The Sage is occupied with the unspoken and acts without effort.

    Teaching without verbosity,

    producing without possessing,

    creating without regard to result,

    claiming nothing,

              the Sage has nothing to lose."

    Pila India: Lao Tse :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Aphrodite Macbain is impressed
    stevenaia Michinaga: like ruling by example
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is it really about doing things, but simply?
    Aphrodite Macbain: like now shh (Pause)
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: archy :)
    Pila India: consider a foundation of Chinese philosophy is the interplay of yin and yang, in a constant state of change
    stevenaia Michinaga: and balance
    Pila India: wu wei is being in harmony with that changing state
    Bruce Mowbray: and flow

    Archmage Atlantis: boggity boggity botggity book
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bubbles on a brook
    Archmage Atlantis: everything in this life is not serious
    stevenaia Michinaga: swimming downstream
    Bruce Mowbray: You can't be serious about that, Arch!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Bruce Mowbray smiles back.

    Storm Nordwind wonders whether in order to help understand what wu wei is, it might be helpful to consider if and why it is relevant or important to us here now, rather than being a distant curiosity.
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods

    Archmage Atlantis: Hey, my koi, Hikari keeps changing

    Archmage Atlantis: If a fish can do it
    Archmage Atlantis: So can I

    Alfred Kelberry: archy, from the cosmology perspective, i agree with you. Our tiny earth is practically non-existent.
    Bruce Mowbray: Maybe one way to "understand" wu wei is to "drop" trying so hard to understand wu wei.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i think it helps to see in a relaxed way
    Bruce Mowbray: Start at the end.
    Bruce Mowbray: Let wu wei find and "understand" you.
    Alfred Kelberry: Bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: (watch what happens).
    Aphrodite Macbain: words words words
    Archmage Atlantis: I think it helps not to think

    Eliza Madrigal: May I share a short poem? Feel it speaks to 'what is nature'?
    stevenaia Michinaga: isn't the natural basis of our conversation here Wu Wei
    Bruce Mowbray: sure! Go for it, Eliza.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes please Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: k :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Namaste sister, share
    Eliza Madrigal:

    “I explain to you matters pertaining to enlightenment,

    But don't try to keep your mind on them.

    Just turn to the ocean of your own essence

    And develop practical accord with its nature.“- Yangshan

    Eliza Madrigal: actually I guess it isn't a poem so much as a pointer
    Alfred Kelberry: a prose
    Aphrodite Macbain: so- “going with your own nature”?
    Aphrodite Macbain: no discipline? No control?
    Eliza Madrigal: some say turning the light inward

    Archmage Atlantis: Analysis is divine, and is after the vision
    Storm Nordwind: In other words, don't get in the way of your own being and doing.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I don’t know what that really means Storm. How do I get “in its way”? By thinking?

    Alfred Kelberry: storm, a practical example, please
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Eliza Madrigal: well we release control as we discover something we can trust more perhaps
    Alfred Kelberry: eliza, yes. As in a relationship.

    Storm Nordwind: If you look at the wikipedia article from which your intro is taken you'll see a nice example about an archer
    Archmage Atlantis: Storm has already given an example
    Archmage Atlantis: Look around you
    Aphrodite Macbain: I was hoping for a personal example
    Aphrodite Macbain : Hard to know what is "natural"
    Pila India: there's one
    Archmage Atlantis: Aph, this place is personal
    Aphrodite Macbain: So, if I did nothing to facilitate this conversation, would that be wu wei?
    Alfred Kelberry: Yes, Aph. good point. it's what pab is for, in a sense. Sharing your own perspective. we can look up definitions any time.
    Pila India: it could be; it depends on what is natural :)
    Eliza Madrigal: right boxy... we have all sorts of structures but when there is intimate knowing (flow), some structures can fall away
    Bruce Mowbray: trusting emergence. . . one way of "doing" wu wei.
    Eliza Madrigal: nods

    SophiaSharon Larnia: what is chaos to wu wei?

    Aphrodite Macbain: great question Sharon
    Eliza Madrigal: nice question :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: snap
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: that’s what your asking, kind of
    Storm Nordwind: I'm not sure i understand the question
    Bruce Mowbray: randomness? Not wu wei, I feel.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I was wondering whether by letting go of control, chaos would emerge
    Bruce Mowbray: Alan Watts wrote a book titled "The Watercourse Way" - very much the wu wei flavor and spirit.
    Archmage Atlantis: Wu wei has no snap
    Bruce Mowbray: water flows... naturally, in its course.
    Storm Nordwind: Chaos would emerge only if you had the mental concept of chaos vs. structure
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce's answer I think fits: trusting emergence
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
    Bruce Mowbray: ty.
    Bruce Mowbray gets a gold star.
    Aphrodite Macbain: so it's all relative?
    Archmage Atlantis: No Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: to one's subjective belief?
    Archmage Atlantis: it is all absolute
    Archmage Atlantis: What I am, I am
    Aphrodite Macbain: Indeed
    Storm Nordwind: What is, is
    Archmage Atlantis: What you are, you are
    Alfred Kelberry: um, i think wu wei is related to the eastern concept of energy. If your actions are aligned with the flow of this energy - you're in the state of wu wei. a sort of superconductor.

    Eliza Madrigal: :) Boxy... my sensibility too, tuning ... resonance
    Aphrodite Macbain: what about action? It all sounds so passive
    Bruce Mowbray: I yam that I yam . . . but doesn't that sort of beg the question?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what yam am i ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I prefer jam

    Archmage Atlantis: Gotta go
    Aphrodite Macbain: whispers Bye! Arch

    Bruce Mowbray: The notion of "impermanence" is central to wu wei -- and allowing that way of transitioning without resistance.

    Aphrodite Macbain: Can anyone give me an example of when they consciously applied the principle of wu wei to their lives?
    Pila India: here's an example: you are swimming in the ocean and realize you are caught in a rip tide, if you try to swim directly to the beach you probably will be exhausted by the contrary flow of the tide, the solution being to go with the flow of the tide at an angle that takes you closer to safety- real life example
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Pila. Trouble is that there are undertows as well as tides
    Storm Nordwind has been in exactly Pila's example with an 8kt estuary current
    Aphrodite Macbain: So have I, and had I not fought to get to shore I would have drowned. But I get the metaphor.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: (and just reread Pila's example).
    Pila India: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: huh
    Alfred Kelberry: pila, a good tip :)
    Alfred Kelberry: 8kt?
    Storm Nordwind: eight knots Alfred
    Pila India: eight knots
    Alfred Kelberry: ah

    Bruce Mowbray: Are you looking for analogies without "exceptions"?
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: kk. Keep looking.

    Aphrodite Macbain: You see I have a hard time “going with the flow” since so much of what is wrong with the world has resulted from going with the flow
    Aphrodite Macbain: Passive. No action. I'm sure Korel would understand. Action rather than just words

    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bertram.

    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bertram
    Alfred Kelberry: berty! HELLLOOO!!!!! :)
    Bertram Jacobus giggles

    Aphrodite Macbain: Bertram. We are discussing wu wei

    Bertram Jacobus: yes, i read it and hello and ty ;o)
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps "going with the flow" is one of those "root metaphors" -- and perhaps it would be dangerous to take it (and any other metaphors) too literally.

    Alfred Kelberry: yes, bruce

    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

    Eliza Madrigal: it isn't going with the flow of default/lazy thinking
    Korel Laloix nods
    Korel Laloix: Something to think about.
    Aphrodite Macbain: hard to know when to apply this then
    Korel Laloix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wibmc...eature=related

    Bertram Jacobus: sry - i didn´t want to disturb with a greeting excess ;-)
    Alfred Kelberry: wu wei in this sense is a good weapon of dictatorship - obey and go with the flow :)
    Storm Nordwind: Applying it deliberately strikes me as very non-wu wei!
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: and grins
    Pila India: seeing what is natural can help any situation
    Bruce Mowbray also appreciates Bert, and everyone else present. . . and absent.
    Eliza Madrigal: there are different qualities of awareness, one can learn to pay attention
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Pila, maybe that's key. First we need to discover what “natural” is.
    Alfred Kelberry: *nods to aph*
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a lack of resistance to seeing what is?
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods at Sophia

    Aphrodite Macbain: Bertram, can you think of a concrete example of wu wei?
    Bruce Mowbray wonders how far back in history we'd have to go before the statement "We have to find what is natural" would have no meaning at all. . . perhaps a hundred years?
    Bruce Mowbray: before the Industrial Revolution. . . agrarian society?
    Bertram Jacobus thinks ...

    Eliza Madrigal: apologies, I have to leave the cafe'... quite busy now and I feel to give someone else the seat...
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks so much

    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Eliza!
    Pila India: bye Eliza
    stevenaia Michinaga: Bye Eliza
    Aphrodite Macbain: awww. Are you coming to Bert's meditation Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal waves... thanks for the nice topic
    Eliza Madrigal: if I get home in time Aph :))
    Aphrodite Macbain: yw. thanks for your contribution
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eliza

    Storm Nordwind: Open minded and open hearted to seeing, then being what is
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods at Storm
    Aphrodite Macbain: I get stuck in the words. They can be sooo abstract
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I’m sensing something a little different than what we've talked about before :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Aph


    Pila India: there's a less frequently discussed but related aspect of Chinese philosophy called the Dao of I -- the way of change
    Pila India: it is the same idea, seeing natural changes
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes?
    Bertram Jacobus: you gave me the example aph : meditation can be a very nice "wu wei action" (attention : contradiction, paradoxon) ! ;-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm yes
    Storm Nordwind: Open minded and open hearted to seeing, then being what is

    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, that would seem to preclude taking any wu wei action

    SophiaSharon Larnia: rather than i am such and such

    Korel Laloix: Back to RL. Thanks for the thoughts.
    Alfred Kelberry: be good, kori
    Pila India: bye Korel

    Korel Laloix: Take care.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Korel
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Korel

    Aphrodite Macbain: My mind drifts easily into daydreams, but I don’t think that is wu wei
    Bruce Mowbray: I do, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh

    SophiaSharon Larnia: (Aph, sometimes rewording things seemingly endlessly does bring the words to you that you can more readily recognise)

    Wabi sabi

    Bruce Mowbray: a similar, related concept is the one of "wabi sabi". . . which seems to be like a practical application of wu wei to the processes of nature. . . like rusting, decay, aging, etc.
    Aphrodite Macbain: letting things fall apart naturally?
    Bruce Mowbray: of course, I don't want to drive across a bridge that follows the wabi sabi principles.
    Aphrodite Macbain: principles?
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: botox treatments, though?
    stevenaia Michinaga: some things are built to decay slower, like a stone bridge
    Bruce Mowbray: good point, steve. . . and the Romans knew that. . . when they built aqueducts and bridges out of stone instead of wood
    Storm Nordwind: A good engineer is totally in harmony with wabi sabi and knows how to flow with that

    stevenaia Michinaga: so it may not be the minimum effort, but the right effort
    Alfred Kelberry: well, wabi sabi, dao of i, and wu wei - they all have one in common - lack of intervention
    Aphrodite Macbain: wabi sabi or wu wei or both Storm?
    Storm Nordwind: Wabi Sabi Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: so building things with the knowledge of how they will fall apart?

    Bertram Jacobus: dear pab friends - i go to prepare the meditation - thanks for your company and be well please ! *wave* ...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bertie
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bertram. See you soon
    Alfred Kelberry: meditate well, berty
    Bruce Mowbray: see you in a few minutes, Bert.
    Bertram Jacobus: ty, bye and see you sooner or later again :-)
    Pila India: bye Bert

    Storm Nordwind: Yes Aph, and how to repair or replace
    Alfred Kelberry: storm, i like this concept
    Aphrodite Macbain: So repairing is also going in accordance with wabu sabi?

    Bruce Mowbray: Wabi-sabi (侘寂?) represents a comprehensive Japanese world view or aesthetic centered on the acceptance of transience. The aesthetic is sometimes described as one of beauty that is "imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete".[1] It is a concept derived from the Buddhist teaching of the three marks of existence (三法印 sanbōin?), specifically impermanence (無常 mujō?), the other two being suffering (dukkha) and emptiness or absence of self-nature (sunyata).
    stevenaia Michinaga: more the choice of an appropriate (natural) expression of the act
    Aphrodite Macbain thinks of a Japanese garden, allowing one thing to be imperfect...
    Aphrodite Macbain: which made her think and wonder how Storm is going to redecorate  PaB Gardens.
    Storm Nordwind: Then you may also need to consider "perfect" - for this is often only a projection of one individual's conception
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Alfred Kelberry: storm, this is an unbeatable argument :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is it an argument? What are the opposing views Boxy?
    Alfred Kelberry: aph, no idea
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

    Aphrodite Macbain: wb Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wb Eliza

    Pila India: hi Eliza
    Bruce Mowbray: that was a quick trip, Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: I know! sheesh... :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: did you find another table by going with the flow?
    Eliza Madrigal: drove home actually... wasn't too far and yes the flow of traffic was conducive to my returning
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: of course, if she'd gone against the flow she might be in Alabama by now.

    Aphrodite Macbain: ?! Bruce
    SophiaSharon Larnia: who Bruce, Eliza? haha it's true, I’ve ended in a different state before

    Bruce Mowbray: some danger in thinking of "perfect" as permanent and complete, and unchanging.

    Aphrodite Macbain: I would think that being ill would be a case of where one could practice wu wei
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes! Aph. . . being ill is an excellent time to practice wu wei...
    Bruce Mowbray: perhaps the very best time.

    SophiaSharon Larnia: no time like the present. It’s easier if you are not ill though :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: letting things go. Not fighting but working with your body. Sleeping. Going to bed when you feel like it

    Storm Nordwind must go and cook the lunch, it seems, and must leave you gentlefolk in peace. :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Storm, have fun
    Eliza Madrigal: :) bye Storm
    Pila India: bye Storm, happy lunching
    Alfred Kelberry: cook well, storm
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Stormie
    Bruce Mowbray: bye, Storm!

    Alfred Kelberry: aph, what is your conclusion of "wu wei"? :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I have no conclusions Boxy
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, too bad
    Alfred Kelberry: then we're at square one again
    Aphrodite Macbain: we're going round in circles Boxy
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, that's it - - no resistance.
    Alfred Kelberry: apparently
    Eliza Madrigal: just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round...
    Aphrodite Macbain: were you really hoping we would come to some final conclusions?
    Alfred Kelberry: yes
    Alfred Kelberry: in a 5 paragraph paper style :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles and tries not to giggle
    Aphrodite Macbain: I have heard many beautiful statements about wu wei and also about wabi sabi
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Bruce Mowbray doubts that there are any "final" conclusions. . . just temporarily conclusions, which are themselves a place to begin.
    Aphrodite Macbain: but I don’t think they have moved me to a deeper understanding
    SophiaSharon Larnia: right, true that
    Eliza Madrigal: I think it would be easy to think of wu wei as just going with the flow but to me it isn't just any flow; there are lots of flows about....
    Alfred Kelberry: Aph, that's the point. It never does.
    Bruce Mowbray: watch a baby breathe. there is wu wei.
    Aphrodite Macbain: watch ourselves breathe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Eliza, ive felt something like being in the flow, but it was like going digital, which i do all the time
    Aphrodite Macbain: I guess i need to decide when NOT to go with the flow

    Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Aph about the "decisions"...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: umm -don’t think its the same thing
    Eliza Madrigal: something near to transcendent rest
    Pila India: "I am sitting here wanting memories to teach me to see the beauty in the world through my own eyes"

    Pila India: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW2TpW4gCt8

    Aphrodite Macbain: smiles at Pila: thinks of crowd or mass think
    Pila India: :)
    Bruce Mowbray prefers "immanent rest."

    Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you all for your input
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: and your output.
    Pila India: thank you Aph
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: (flow, of course).
    Alfred Kelberry: i wonder why these concepts always explained in vague terms. It’s as if it was done on purpose.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Boxy-my thoughts exactly

    SophiaSharon Larnia: because words are clunky

    Pila India: "the way is beyond laguage" Boxy

    Alfred Kelberry: and all the explanations you hear from the "gurus" are in the same vague manner
    Aphrodite Macbain: agreed boxy
    Eliza Madrigal: we change and when we change we hear differently
    SophiaSharon Larnia: words are like square pegs in round holes
    Aphrodite Macbain: maybe to allow for a variety of interpretations- no absolutes...
    Alfred Kelberry: it's like they're hiding the truth which you're not worthy to hear :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yeah, why do we hide stuff from ourselves....
    Eliza Madrigal: ahhaha

    Aphrodite Macbain: I'll try and come up with another topic next week and post it beforehand
    Bruce Mowbray: kk, thank you, Aph!!!!
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm off to Bertram’s meditation in PP
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, everyone.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye!
    Eliza Madrigal: bye for now
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye everyone who is leaving

    Alfred Kelberry: so yes, i am sad with lack of conclusions made
    Alfred Kelberry: been nice talking though :)
    Pila India: maybe you don't deserve to know Alf
    Pila India: and you may not understand that comment at first
    Alfred Kelberry: apparently :)
    Pila India: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i dont either
    Alfred Kelberry: it's only for the chosen
    Alfred Kelberry: i'll stick with math for the poor :)
    Pila India: I once heard the comment used in the context of “the truth would be burdensome”
    Pila India: hence, only those deserving the burden (of truth) 'know'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: re-reads that a couple of times and blinks.
    Pila India: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: this is what I see on my viewer ... ??? ((loading...).):
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is that you Pila?
    Alfred Kelberry: yes
    Alfred Kelberry: he's a cloud
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok thanks
    Pila India: I cannot see Sharon, I'm using txt only
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok great, i do not have your name either :)
    Pila India: its an alt
    SophiaSharon Larnia: just wanted to know who said that
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok
    Alfred Kelberry: got wu wei'ed :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
    Pila India: I think the original saying goes back to Buddha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
    Pila India: can't vouch for it :)
    Pila India: I heard it from Ram Dass
    Alfred Kelberry: i doubt he spoke English :)
    Pila India: perhaps so
    stevenaia Michinaga: Sorry distracted w/ Friends
    Pila India: but he may have had terms to distinguish 'worthy' from 'deserve'
    Alfred Kelberry: i actually do believe that a lot of the western understanding was lost in translation
    Pila India: how’s the West Coast been, Steve?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the other morning i was driving home and an idea hit me that all i had to do was say yes. And that awareness is on an informed consent kind of basis, but I have no idea what i really meant by that or why I thought it
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think I know why my son wants to never leave
    Pila India: sounds like an affirmation Sharon :)
    Pila India: sounds like an affirmation Steve :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Pila India: also
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i don’t know, I felt that i had to consent to something and that made me wonder
    SophiaSharon Larnia: west coast Steve? :)) wish i was there right now
    SophiaSharon Larnia: southish though
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
    Alfred Kelberry: conformity is a strong force
    Pila India: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ha! now your name popped up lol
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nice name
    Pila India: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: got to go, bye for now :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and thank you!
    Pila India: bye Sharon
    Pila India: have a nice day
    Alfred Kelberry: pila, anyhow, to sum up my approach - i pick and apply to myself things that work and are practical for me. The rest is theory which is pleasant to dwell into now and then :)
    Pila India: yes, sounds like a fair approach
    Alfred Kelberry: in alignment with pali canon folks, i believe :)

    Harvesting and its meaning

    Pila India: you know farmers spend a lot of time doing the same thing
    Pila India: ' things that work and are practical '
    Pila India: and they have a specific idea in mind: the harvest
    Pila India: maybe that helps them decide what works
    Pila India: what does boxy want to harvest?
    Alfred Kelberry: for people to have food :)
    Pila India: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: thanks to their practicality we're not starved to death

    Pila India: yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: time to go, see you soon
    Pila India: except some of us who are close
    Pila India: bye Steve
    Pila India: have a happy holiday
    Alfred Kelberry: stev :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: be back Monday late
    Pila India: safe journeys
    Alfred Kelberry: i do not reject spiritual forms, if that's what you think
    Pila India: no, it wasn’t my thought
    Alfred Kelberry: what was the thought? :)
    Pila India: well, the primary thought was how grounded farmers tend to be, how practical
    Pila India: it led to the idea that the harvest is what they live for
    Pila India: that became metaphor in a question, kind of spontaneously
    Pila India: farmers see what is natural quite readily I suspect
    Alfred Kelberry: why practicality is grounded?
    Pila India: it was not a train of thought aimed at you :)
    Alfred Kelberry: you did ask why i harvest :)
    Pila India: yes, as a spontaneous question following the farmer idea
    Pila India: actually I asked what you would like to harvest
    Pila India: [12:12] Pila India : what does boxy want to harvest?
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, "what" :)
    Pila India: what vs why :)
    Pila India: yes
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, thank you
    Alfred Kelberry: it's a tough question. Almost why we're here? :)
    Pila India: yes
    Alfred Kelberry: for which i have no answer
    Pila India: for some the harvest may be 'to get to heaven', for some 'whatever is for the good of all sentient beings' and so on ...
    Pila India: lots of answers
    Alfred Kelberry: yes

    Alfred Kelberry: i'd like to take a trip to Antarctica :)
    Pila India: cool :)

    Pila India: well, time for lunch
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, eat well :)
    Pila India: thank you
    Pila India: bye for now
    Alfred Kelberry: bye, pila

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    Great session! A good topic and lots of insightful and eloquent comments.
    I'll "go along with" MOST of what was said here!
    I like the way you posted the session topic ahead of time, not "going along with the flow" of NOTposting it, and creating a new flow for people to "go along with".
    Posted 22:54, 30 Jan 2012
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