2012.01.30 07:00 - The Sun Needs No Permission to Talk to the Flower

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.


    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Lawrence :)


    Eliza Madrigal: :::hums::: swing lowwwww.... sweet chariot....

    Lawrence Vyceratops: hello :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: How ya doin' today Lawrence?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: doing fine. yourself?
    Eliza Madrigal: just fine, thanks... listening to a little Etta James... you know she died this month...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: im not sure who etta james is
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, a singer... gospel... you would recognize some of her songs I'm sure...

    Eliza Madrigal: anyway... any topic come to mind today?
    Eliza Madrigal: I suppose you must be afk a bit, tending to your child... which is fine :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i'm here :) he just went back to sleep :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles

    Eliza Madrigal: Do you have any ideas of what you hope to teach him about life, Lawrence?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Eliza, Lawrence :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm not sure
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi Zen
    Lawrence Vyceratops: just see what interests him.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: he loves blocks right now

    Eliza Madrigal: :) do you find yourself able to get involved in whatever he is keen on doing?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: like playing with blocks you mean?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i play with him a lot
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :) I remember getting positively lost in things when the kids were small...
    Eliza Madrigal: playing kitchen and >blink< hours have gone by


    Lawrence Vyceratops: i don't pay much attention to time, unless i have to go to work ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: was remembering that once we made a doll house from a box... rather detailed, all sorts of items as furniture... immersive :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: oh, yeah, he's not quite old enough for that yet . haha he's just now at the point where he likes to wave them around and drop them.
    Eliza Madrigal: :))

    Eliza Madrigal: How ya doin' Zen?
    Zen Arado: not bad ty
    Zen Arado: quiet
    Zen Arado: you?
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, suppose the same...
    Eliza Madrigal: enjoyed Aphrodite's wu wei session yesterday...
    Eliza Madrigal: it was funny that one idea can have so many layers and angles... levels, maybe
    Zen Arado: enlightening?
    Eliza Madrigal: a real 'sides of the elephant' conversation

    Eliza Madrigal: wu wei is one of those things that I thought I understood really well at one time...
    Eliza Madrigal: and have only scratched the surface of
    Zen Arado: I don't think it is graspable by understanding
    Zen Arado: like lots of things
    Eliza Madrigal: nods
    Eliza Madrigal: so how to share the magic?
    Zen Arado: point to it

    Lawrence Vyceratops: what are you guys talking about?
    Eliza Madrigal: the notion of 'doing [by] not doing' or wu wei
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i'm not sure what you mean by that
    Zen Arado: doing without thinking about what you are doing?
    Eliza Madrigal: It is mostly a term that comes up in Taoism...
    Eliza Madrigal: that there is a natural harmony in/of life and that one wastes energy by going against that, in a sense...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: doing without thinking? like driving a car, once you've learned and have driven many miles?
    Eliza Madrigal: well... that is more like auto-pilot

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi SUN!!
    Zen Arado: Hi Sun :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi Sunshine
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) laughs... clumsy hug
    Lawrence Vyceratops: a natural harmony?
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eliza Madrigal: Lawrence, yes, true nature
    Sunshine Vayandar: yay I see
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what is meant by that
    Lawrence Vyceratops: ?
    Sunshine Vayandar: that was the best hug ever ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: so nice to see you Sunshine
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Zenji, hi Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi :)
    Eliza Madrigal: we were starting to talk about wu wei a bit
    Sunshine Vayandar: pls carry on
    Eliza Madrigal: Sun reminds me that (to me), spontaneity is a big part of wu wei
    Sunshine Vayandar: sorry to interrupt ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: not at all :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: not interupting. i don't even now what woowee! is ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: of course it is all so personal in a sense, so no answer, like zen says for what it is
    Sunshine Vayandar: me neither but sounds great
    Sunshine Vayandar: always wanted to know
    Lawrence Vyceratops: personal?


    Eliza Madrigal: sure... we can discuss the idea of it, but to live in such a way, is deeply personal
    Zen Arado: nonduality says we will do what we do anyway...all part of a great flow
    Eliza Madrigal: yesterday I heard someone explain it as "no fake"
    Eliza Madrigal: which I found brilliant
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: pointer to authenticity and of being in harmony with one's own life force so to speak :)

    Zen Arado: if we fake it is an expression of us too
    Eliza Madrigal: say more?
    Zen Arado: it's all just our nature expressing itself
    Lawrence Vyceratops: sorry, you guys are being vague ;) i have no idea what you are saying.
    Sunshine Vayandar listens
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe my true nature is vague
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh

    Lawrence Vyceratops: what is meant by authenticity, harmony, nature expressing?
    Eliza Madrigal: do you not have a sense of these things in your own life Lawrence? What if your son asked you that, what would you say?
    Zen Arado: we invent a self that thinks it can control
    Zen Arado: it seems to me
    Lawrence Vyceratops: asks me what? i'm unclear on the question here
    Zen Arado: but I find it hard to accept
    Eliza Madrigal: if your son asked what it means to be authentic, what would you say?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: i don't know that he would ask me that. he hasn't said a word yet ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;))
    Lawrence Vyceratops: did someone tell him to be authentic? what did they mean?

    Zen Arado: wu wei is just stating that we are part of the flow then?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: the flow?
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure, seems to have ever-unfolding aspects
    Lawrence Vyceratops: the flow of time?
    Eliza Madrigal: nods
    Zen Arado: of everything
    Eliza Madrigal: surely
    Zen Arado: impermanence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: wu wei states that we are a part of space/time?

    Zen Arado: Hi Yaku skater :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yaku :))
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Yakuy skater
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi Yahuzza
    Sunshine Vayandar: _y
    Sunshine Vayandar: -y
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;p
    Sunshine Vayandar: nice to see you ;)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, nice to see you around again, haven´t seen you in a while sunshine

    Eliza Madrigal: there is this idea in harry potter, where he takes a potion called 'felix felices' and everything works toward his benefit... which doesn't mean as he plans, but that all arises in a sort of harmonious manner... was thinking actually that when we get caught up in play, that is to me an example of wu wei
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)

    Sunshine Vayandar: it seems to me wu wei is like the quote you gave me Liz
    Lawrence Vyceratops: oh... i'm still not sure what you mean. :(
    Eliza Madrigal: even getting lost in playing blocks out of deep interest in being with someone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes Sun?

    Sunshine Vayandar:

    "Imagine sunshine coming through a window where a plant grows. The sun is not saying, 'Please open the window, I need permission to talk to the flower. Maybe the flower does not want me to shine on it'. The sun has none of those doubts, nor does the flower." ~ Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

    Eliza Madrigal: oooooh
    Eliza Madrigal: thank you
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Sunshine Vayandar: is that wu wei
    Lawrence Vyceratops: that is about woowee! ?
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd say so
    Eliza Madrigal: tastes of wu wei
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: this quote really stayed with me all this time

    Lawrence Vyceratops: if that is wuwei, how does one apply this to daily life?
    Zen Arado: yes good quote
    Eliza Madrigal: so glad... deeply meaningful to me also...
    Zen Arado: that sounds more like non-duality
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmm listens ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, it does Zen but then we have to define non-duality...hehe

    Lawrence Vyceratops: non-duality: another established term?
    Zen Arado: in a way wu wei posits that we can resist going with the flow in some way
    Zen Arado: which is a bit dualistic
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what do you mean by 'going with the flow'?
    Zen Arado: in other words, we can separate ourselves from the flow of life by resisting it?
    Sunshine Vayandar: not trying to control things
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what things?
    Eliza Madrigal: seems to me this continually opens up

    Lawrence Vyceratops: if i don't control my car, i'll wreck! :0
    Sunshine Vayandar: whenever we don't like something ..that happens ...we just let it happen anyway...
    Sunshine Vayandar: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Zen Arado: yes but that control comes from a multitude of causes
    Eliza Madrigal: 'leave the gaps in your life where you find them'...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, what things do we not control?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: we have to control the stove or dinner is burned
    Zen Arado: I am tying t get m head round his myself
    Eliza Madrigal: I find it to mean, most often, that within what I am doing there are opportunities or openings to do less...


    Zen Arado: but, really everything we do comes from our genetics, upbringing, education, life experiences, interests, abilities in a long causal chain.
    Zen Arado: so really anything we do is the result of all of these factors and influences
    Zen Arado: they cause us to have urges and desires
    Zen Arado: which we have no control over
    Eliza Madrigal: wu wei transcends that I think
    Zen Arado: we can't control what we want to do
    Sunshine Vayandar: i think human beings have this urge to control things ...
    Sunshine Vayandar: so much control
    Zen Arado: but we don't have any control over the urges

    Lawrence Vyceratops: i think i know what you are talking about....
    Zen Arado: over the reason why we do things
    Sunshine Vayandar: hm ...
    Sunshine Vayandar: the urges keep happening
    Zen Arado: it is a strange idea to us
    Zen Arado: we think there is someone inside us choosing all the time
    Sunshine Vayandar: meep!

    Eliza Madrigal: so could we say that as opposed to controlling, wu wei is about non aggression?
    Zen Arado: :-)

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy :))
    Alfred Kelberry: you guys!
    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey boxy
    Lawrence Vyceratops: if you walk outside and it is raining, the fact of the matter is that it is raining. but, if one adds to that reality that "it's a gloomy day" then you have seen something personal, that is not actual, but instead in conflict with reality.
    Alfred Kelberry: i see the sun is shining today :)
    Eliza Madrigal: nice Lawrence
    Zen Arado: it is something you have added Lawrence, a story
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;))
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi, Al
    Zen Arado: Hi Alf :)

    Sunshine Vayandar: in africa a rainy day is like celebration
    Zen Arado: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: not gloomy at all
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, i'm asking, is that what you mean by woowee! ?
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, which shows subjectivity due to place
    Eliza Madrigal loves the rain
    Sunshine Vayandar: me too
    Zen Arado: we can add a happy description to reality too
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, wu wei, continued
    Zen Arado: but reality is just reality, just the way it is
    Eliza Madrigal: right, which would still be adding something...
    Eliza Madrigal: the "fake"
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: this story
    Eliza Madrigal: which is a harsh term, but brings it around to earlier point

    Sunshine Vayandar: when I travel and I see that the opposite of something is also true .... I start not to want force my ideas on things as much ...
    Eliza Madrigal: so in a sense you give yourself to the new context, as a learner, appreciator, first?
    Zen Arado: but we spent all of our lives interpreting and telling stories about it
    Alfred Kelberry: i liked your rain example, lawren
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes we all have stories about things we experience
    Lawrence Vyceratops: we tend to do that all the time, Al
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes I loved the rain example
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Zen Arado: a nice conceptual layer
    Zen Arado: they say that here, "what a miserable day"

    Alfred Kelberry: there are events (rain) and contextual perception of them (gloomy or celebration as in africa)
    Zen Arado: but it is just a day with rain
    Lawrence Vyceratops: precisely

    Eliza Madrigal: there are a few ways to be a tourist I guess.. to have a list and make one's trip conform, or to go and follow what comes up spontaneously... think most would have ideas about what to see (outline) but also leave lots of room for spontaneity
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes

    Zen Arado: if we see through the stories that is wu Wei maybe
    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, can we apply that to other areas of life?
    Alfred Kelberry: *whispers to eliza: berlin meetup* :)
    Zen Arado: Eckhart Tolle is good on that
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Lawrence Vyceratops: how can we easily see this?
    Zen Arado: "she let me down" no, she just didn't turn up
    Eliza Madrigal: flowing with those openings to make room for what arises would seem wu wei ... retreats have those opportunities too
    Lawrence Vyceratops: without effort?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: i love tolle. such meditative voice.
    Zen Arado: "I am ruined" no... I have less money than did
    Alfred Kelberry: zen, good one :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)

    Zen Arado: how's life without dramatic stories

    Lawrence Vyceratops: so, we must be able to discern reality from fantasy?
    Alfred Kelberry: zen, my best example of it is a missed phone call - aha, she doesn't want to talk to me :)
    Zen Arado: ha ha yes
    Zen Arado: even before I pick up the phone I am running through a list of who it may be
    Zen Arado: :-)
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: when I see a person .... I have a long list of things - I think of him/her before even chatting
    Zen Arado: yup
    Alfred Kelberry: appearance says a lot
    Sunshine Vayandar: long beard guy in electrical shop - I think of Osama ;p
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;D:D
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Alfred Kelberry: *recalls eliza dressed up in an airport* :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: there is someone that looks like him


    Lawrence Vyceratops: gotta go. see you guys later! :)
    Eliza Madrigal waves, thanks Lawrence
    Zen Arado: bye Lawrence
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye lowrance
    Sunshine Vayandar: byebyeee take care
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lawrence
    Eliza Madrigal: was reading something today about how hard it is to transition in 'old' friendships ... we have layers of filters sometimes ...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: have fun! :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: true
    Eliza Madrigal: like, right now when Sun is here, I want to dance and play... giggles
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;p
    Eliza Madrigal: all based on 'old' memories...heheh...
    Zen Arado: is the person we know really that person?
    Eliza Madrigal: not really :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: I am still like that lol
    Eliza Madrigal laughs
    Sunshine Vayandar: hehe
    Zen Arado: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Facebook brings up people who 'knew you when' for instance...
    Eliza Madrigal: and it can be strange to have a new conversation
    Sunshine Vayandar: I thought of FB too
    Sunshine Vayandar: people I have seen 20 years ago
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Sunshine Vayandar: ( omg I am old )
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe, you're in good company Sun
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;p

    Zen Arado: Wait til you meet someone ou haven't seen for 50 years
    Zen Arado: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: when I get old I'm losing my hair... many years from now...
    Sunshine Vayandar: lol
    Sunshine Vayandar: lalalaaaa
    Zen Arado: I wish I was 64 again :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes that must be strange Zen.. but maybe by then one isn't trying to make something new happen
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;))
    Eliza Madrigal: so can be more relaxed
    Zen Arado: I met three old friends like that last year

    Sunshine Vayandar: while we were talking I thought of McFerrin improvising with Bona :


    Eliza Madrigal: wow nice Zen
    Sunshine Vayandar: listen if you have time
    Eliza Madrigal clicks...
    Sunshine Vayandar: it's long ;)
    Sunshine Vayandar: and how was that Zenji
    Eliza Madrigal: can put it on now though... "improv instead of improve" fits with wu wei :D
    Zen Arado: it was great
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Zen Arado: they have changed but yet they haven't changed
    Eliza Madrigal: no awkwardness?
    Zen Arado: no, I stil feel close to them
    Eliza Madrigal: timeless friends
    Sunshine Vayandar: must be nice to discover that
    Sunshine Vayandar: I am on Mars so no old friends lol
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: one guy lives in Melourne and I talk to him on Skype
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: (this is gorgeous Sun, ty)
    Sunshine Vayandar: yw ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: I have a lot of friends, very few intimate ones
    Eliza Madrigal: but that said, it is a dynamic process... what intimate means may change over time
    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
    Eliza Madrigal: wb Boxy
    Sunshine Vayandar: Boxy is up ;)

    Zen Arado: I thought it meant sex :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, no... not to me anyway
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;D
    Alfred Kelberry: sex? wait, who said that?
    Sunshine Vayandar: lol
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: Zenji said that
    Eliza Madrigal: zen... too much time in paradise
    Eliza Madrigal: llollol
    Sunshine Vayandar: hehe
    Zen Arado: boxy woke up :-)
    Alfred Kelberry: please explain yourself, zen! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: uh oh, on the spot
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;p
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes explain ;)
    Eliza Madrigal stares at Zen
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;D
    Zen Arado: what is there to explain?
    Alfred Kelberry: oh... social pressure :)
    Zen Arado: If you have an intimate woman friend that usually means sexual relationship?
    Eliza Madrigal: an intimate friend may be someone close in that way but mostly I think it means that they accept you so you can open up about things you may not otherwise
    Alfred Kelberry: zen, the appearance of the very controversial word "sex" on the pab meeting :)
    Eliza Madrigal: well, ways of knowing will be talking about sex soon too I think?
    Eliza Madrigal: or did I miss that...

    Zen Arado: We are only talking :-)
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;o)
    Eliza Madrigal: gosh I love this link
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)) me too
    Zen Arado: yes nice music Sun
    Sunshine Vayandar: so much in the moment
    Alfred Kelberry: eliza touched on trust, i think
    Eliza Madrigal: yes....
    Zen Arado: yes "intimate" can have many meanings
    Zen Arado: closeness
    Eliza Madrigal: Sun (sunshine.vayandar):

    "Imagine sunshine coming through a window where a plant grows. The sun is not saying, 'Please open the window, I need permission to talk to the flower. Maybe the flower does not want me to shine on it'. The sun has none of those doubts, nor does the flower." ~ Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

    Alfred Kelberry: intimate setting
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Knowing
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)


    Zen Arado: I have to go
    Sunshine Vayandar: take care Zenji
    Eliza Madrigal: K Zen, nice to see you
    Zen Arado: byee all :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: hugs ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks for bringing a controversial topic...juicy session...
    Zen Arado: hugs
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye zen
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Sunshine Vayandar: hehe
    Yakuzza Lethecus smiles :)

    Sunshine Vayandar: Enlightenment is intimacy with all things. ~ Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253)

    Alfred Kelberry: poof
    Eliza Madrigal: Oooh nice Sunshine!
    Sunshine Vayandar: I love this one
    Eliza Madrigal: <3 Dogen
    Alfred Kelberry: sun, that would be orgy in western terminology
    Sunshine Vayandar: hehe boxy
    Sunshine Vayandar: a kind of orgy
    Eliza Madrigal: well sun is from mars so she's not limited to western terms...hehe...
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;p
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes I am a planetarian
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;D
    Eliza Madrigal: true universalist
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;))
    Alfred Kelberry: yaku, how is your day going?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s fine so far
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nothing special
    Alfred Kelberry: you're with us - this is special :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wondering how sun got the quotes so fast :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: she's smart like that :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) quick draw
    Sunshine Vayandar: from my profile
    Alfred Kelberry: oh
    Sunshine Vayandar: and my alts profile
    Sunshine Vayandar: that's all I know
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;D
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: actually Liz gives me the quotes
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;p
    Eliza Madrigal: and Sun lives them so that I can appreciate that and learn so much
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, have a good day everyone :)
    Alfred Kelberry: eliza is our wisdom keeper
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes ;)
    Sunshine Vayandar: byebyeee all
    Eliza Madrigal: ;p
    Sunshine Vayandar: hugs
    Alfred Kelberry: be well
    Eliza Madrigal: bye everyone, HUGS
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks for a lovely session

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