2012.02.05 01:00 - So if we put down those bits of identity, what remains?

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    Eliza posted this session from the auto-listener database :)


    [01:00] Lawrence Vyceratops: hi Wol
    [01:00] Wol Euler: good morning, lawrence
    [01:02] Korel Laloix: osiyo
    [01:02] Lawrence Vyceratops: hi Korel, Yahuzza
    [01:02] Wol Euler: good morning korel, yaku
    [01:02] Lawrence Vyceratops: k
    [01:02] Wol Euler: nice dress, korel
    [01:03] Yakuzza Lethecus: hey, good morning
    [01:03] Wol Euler: brb, need coffee
    [01:03] Korel Laloix: wdo
    [01:03] Korel Laloix: wado
    [01:05] Wol Euler: back
    [01:05] Korel Laloix: front
    [01:05] Korel Laloix: smils
    [01:05] Wol Euler chuckles.
    [01:07] Korel Laloix: morewater brb

    [01:10] Yakuzza Lethecus: lawrence, ur typing animation seems to be stuck, ur ur writing a shortstory for us
    [01:10] Yakuzza Lethecus: *or ur
    [01:11] Lawrence Vyceratops: i don't know what's going on....
    [01:11] Lawrence Vyceratops: is it still stuck?
    [01:12] Wol Euler: try standing and sitting again
    [01:12] Wol Euler: you aren't typing as such, but your hands are out
    [01:12] Wol Euler: ah, better :)
    [01:12] Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    [01:12] Lawrence Vyceratops: word
    [01:14] Wol Euler: that seems a better way to start sunday (or end saturday, whatever :)

    [01:15] Lawrence Vyceratops: what? standing up and sitting down? ;)
    [01:16] Lawrence Vyceratops: i guess, if you're Catholic
    [01:17] Yakuzza Lethecus ´s avatar sits while the paratar is standing
    [01:17] Wol Euler: or stuck in a pair of conflicting animations

    [01:17] Lawrence Vyceratops: i can never see myself, anyway. to me, i'm always just a puff of white smoke. haha
    [01:18] Wol Euler: really? then enable the Advanced menu with Ctrl-Alt-D
    [01:18] Korel Laloix: inca help youwith tht.
    [01:19] Lawrence Vyceratops: huh? wha?
    [01:19] Wol Euler: also called "debug" or "develop" in some viewers
    [01:19] Wol Euler: got that menu?
    [01:19] Lawrence Vyceratops: debug settings/?
    [01:20] Wol Euler: no, the *menu* named "debug" or "develop" or "advanced"
    [01:20] Lawrence Vyceratops: have advanced.
    [01:20] Wol Euler: there's a submenu called "avatar" in it, with a sub-submenu called "character test"
    [01:20] Lawrence Vyceratops: have character test
    [01:21] Wol Euler: and in that choose "test female"
    [01:21] Wol Euler: which does this :)
    [01:21] Wol Euler: changes your appearance to one of the default avs
    [01:21] Wol Euler: I chose female because my appearance isn't borked
    [01:21] Lawrence Vyceratops: i am a girl now.

    [01:21] Wol Euler: and *that* should force your viewer to render you afresh
    [01:21] Wol Euler: right! but you can see yourself, not a cloud of white smoke
    [01:22] Lawrence Vyceratops: oh, i look like you do.
    [01:22] Wol Euler: now that it works, you can return to your usual appearance by choosing things from inventory
    [01:22] Lawrence Vyceratops: mmhmm
    [01:22] Wol Euler smiles.
    [01:22] Lawrence Vyceratops: eh?
    [01:22] Lawrence Vyceratops: i can't undo?
    [01:22] Wol Euler: putting on new/different clothes, skin, hair ...
    [01:22] Wol Euler: as you did to make the appearance that you previously had
    [01:22] Lawrence Vyceratops: oo.
    [01:23] Wol Euler: no undo
    [01:23] Wol Euler: undo would return you to clouded :)
    [01:23] Lawrence Vyceratops: i'll be a girl for a while. ;)
    [01:23] Wol Euler: no, just open your inventory and put things on

    [01:23] Wol Euler: you#re two years old, man, I do not believe that you cannot put on a shirt :)
    [01:24] Lawrence Vyceratops: don't remember what i was wearing.
    [01:24] Wol Euler: ah
    [01:24] Wol Euler: okay, that is trickier
    [01:24] Wol Euler: as I remember you had on a black longsleeved shirt which was open to near the navel :-?
    [01:25] Wol Euler: plain black pants, couldn'T see your shoes
    [01:25] Lawrence Vyceratops: haha yeah, but i don't remember what it was named.
    [01:25] Wol Euler: the tattoo is what you had on
    [01:25] Wol Euler: ah
    [01:25] Wol Euler: well, consider this an opportunity to experiment and discover! heheheh
    [01:25] Wol Euler: start trying stuff out
    [01:25] Wol Euler: first thing is to get a guy shape back
    [01:26] Wol Euler watches and smiles
    [01:26] Korel Laloix: insted of doingj tht item try debug RenderUnloadedAvatar
    [01:26] Wol Euler: ah!
    [01:26] Lawrence Vyceratops: omg.
    [01:26] Wol Euler: where is that?
    [01:27] Korel Laloix: sory, soooo driked
    [01:27] Korel Laloix: lol
    [01:32] Wol Euler: looks like Korel has gone to bed :)
    [01:32] Lawrence Vyceratops: this is fine. i don't care haha
    [01:32] Wol Euler smiles.
    [01:32] Yakuzza Lethecus: :)

    [01:33] Wol Euler: one tip: when you get an appearance you like, make a folder for it and copy evrything you are wearing into it
    [01:33] Wol Euler: that way you can restore just by rightclicking that folder
    [01:33] Lawrence Vyceratops: thank you. i'll do that from now on. ;)
    [01:33] Wol Euler: you're welcome
    [01:33] Lawrence Vyceratops: lesson learned. haha
    [01:33] Wol Euler grins.
    [01:35] Yakuzza Lethecus appraciates wol´s outfits
    [01:36] Wol Euler smiles.
    [01:36] Wol Euler: being able to dress interestingly for nearly free is one of hte incidental pleasures of SL
    [01:37] Wol Euler: this outfit cost less than a starbucks coffee :)
    [01:39] Yakuzza Lethecus: i sometimes wonder about my online and rl behavior since in rl i don´t mind going to a fastfoodrestaurant often and order like currywurst pommes majo for 3,20 while in sl giving 1000linden is a wtf high price for anything
    [01:39] Wol Euler nods.
    [01:39] Wol Euler: different values in a different context

    [01:39] Wol Euler: people spend hundreds of euros/dollars on an iPhone and then hesitate to spend 0.99 on an app for it :)
    [01:39] Wol Euler: morning zon!
    [01:39] Zon Kwan: hi all
    [01:40] Lawrence Vyceratops: hi Zon
    [01:40] Zon Kwan: well..a saving is a saving..
    [01:41] Yakuzza Lethecus: morning zon
    [01:41] Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i fefar i am the same with those 0,99 apps
    [01:41] Yakuzza Lethecus: fear
    [01:43] Wol Euler smiles.
    [01:43] Wol Euler: brb, more coffee
    [01:46] Wol Euler: back

    [01:46] Lawrence Vyceratops: what does this mean: "A thought experiment to see what is left if we put down what we have" ?
    [01:47] Wol Euler: it goes back to a buddhist statement, something about the difference between what we are and what we have
    [01:47] Wol Euler: we say "I am an architect" but we could also express that as "I have trained as an architect"
    [01:47] Wol Euler: I am English means I have an english passport
    [01:47] Wol Euler: neither englishness nor architect is really intrinsic to what I am
    [01:48] Wol Euler: so if we put down all those little bits of identity (english, architect), what remains?
    [01:48] Lawrence Vyceratops: human being is left then
    [01:48] Yakuzza Lethecus: good subject you brought up lawrence :)

    [01:48] Wol Euler: what is "human being" though?
    [01:48] Zon Kwan: they are conditioning of mind
    [01:48] Wol Euler: is that too perhaps a label?
    [01:48] Lawrence Vyceratops: what do you mean?
    [01:48] Zon Kwan: a body ?
    [01:49] Lawrence Vyceratops: the biological body, yes
    [01:49] Zon Kwan: is my body me
    [01:49] Lawrence Vyceratops: human being body
    [01:49] Zon Kwan: how canit be me if its mine
    [01:49] Lawrence Vyceratops: well, we are not mooses :)
    [01:49] Wol Euler: agreed

    [01:49] Wol Euler: but where is the "me" located? is it just my body?
    [01:50] Wol Euler: if I lose a tooth, does that change "me"?
    [01:50] Wol Euler: or just the body?
    [01:50] Lawrence Vyceratops: well, t said what is left. is human being left?
    [01:50] Zon Kwan: no
    [01:51] Lawrence Vyceratops: ok, so go past that to just being.
    [01:51] Wol Euler: "human being" is in the buddhist sense still a label that you have
    [01:51] Wol Euler: because it separates you from the rest of the world, both other people and other beings
    [01:51] Wol Euler: and even other things

    [01:52] Lawrence Vyceratops: so, what is left?
    [01:52] Wol Euler: "be the mountain" as a meditation suggestion is also a reality of buddhist thought :)
    [01:52] Wol Euler: try it and find out :)
    [01:52] Wol Euler: because it will be different for you
    [01:52] Lawrence Vyceratops: why different?

    [01:52] Wol Euler: because of who you are, it will feel different
    [01:52] Wol Euler: your experiences etc are different to mine
    [01:52] Wol Euler: the value you have learned to see in the world will be different to mine
    [01:52] Lawrence Vyceratops: oh, because of the things being let go
    [01:53] Wol Euler: right :)

    [01:53] Lawrence Vyceratops: but, if those things are let go of, it should be somethng that we all can see
    [01:53] Wol Euler: there's a lot that has been written about this on our website, if you are interested then follow that up
    [01:53] Lawrence Vyceratops: i'd like to talk about it.
    [01:54] Zon Kwan: we all can expereince yes
    [01:54] Lawrence Vyceratops: and then, we are to try and do this n daily life?
    [01:54] Lawrence Vyceratops: or not do, dependng on how you look at it.
    [01:54] Wol Euler: ideally yes :)
    [01:55] Wol Euler: heheheh

    [01:55] Wol Euler: wu wei applies here too
    [01:55] Wol Euler: don't do dropping, just let it happen
    [01:55] Wol Euler smiles.

    [01:56] Lawrence Vyceratops: but certain things we have to label; we have to drive cars and find our way to the grocery store.
    [01:56] Wol Euler: of course :)

    [01:56] Wol Euler: and people who don'T believe in "time" usually still have insurance and pensions :)
    [01:57] Wol Euler: but you can hold those things loosely, use them as *tools*
    [01:57] Wol Euler: rather than believing that they determine who you are

    [01:57] Zon Kwan: but we dont need to identify ourselves with those things, just use them
    [01:57] Wol Euler: exactly, zon
    [01:57] Wol Euler: the idea is not to give up living :)
    [01:57] Lawrence Vyceratops: isn't using identfying?
    [01:57] Wol Euler: no
    [01:58] Wol Euler: sorry, identify *with* it
    [01:58] Wol Euler: believe that it is a necessary part of your person or your life
    [01:58] Zon Kwan: if i use my bike, im not thinikng its me

    [01:58] Wol Euler: you have to know the difference between a screwdriver and a banana, sure
    [01:58] Wol Euler: but you should not believe that either of htem will make your life better
    [01:58] Lawrence Vyceratops: so, when is identifying not good?
    [01:59] Zon Kwan: when u suffer
    [01:59] Wol Euler: when it becomes confused with who you are
    [01:59] Wol Euler: like the people who are willing to kill Democrats because they are Republicans
    [01:59] Lawrence Vyceratops: who you are with the identities or without?
    [01:59] Wol Euler: or kill Muslims because they are Christians
    [02:00] Zon Kwan: when you tend to be too serious

    [02:02] Wol Euler: if you identify with your expensive luxurious car, for example, you will suffer terrible sadness when somebody scratches the door while parking their car
    [02:03] Lawrence Vyceratops: so, you are talking about a very subtle difference between the actual and the perceived, so to speak
    [02:03] Wol Euler: a large part of most religions is concerned with that difference, Lawrence :)
    [02:04] Lawrence Vyceratops: the atual being the scratch is there, the perceived being the attachment to the way it was or desired, which conflicts with reality
    [02:04] Wol Euler: right
    [02:04] Wol Euler: like the difference between pain and suffering
    [02:04] Wol Euler: buddhism doesn't say "there will be no more pain"
    [02:04] Lawrence Vyceratops: of course
    [02:04] Wol Euler: pain is real and present and inevitable
    [02:04] Lawrence Vyceratops: this is obvious

    [02:04] Wol Euler: what buddhism does say is that you can end suffering, because that is up to you
    [02:04] Wol Euler: suffering is an evaluation that you put on pain
    [02:04] Lawrence Vyceratops: right
    [02:05] Wol Euler: that is the difference between actual and perceived
    [02:05] Wol Euler nods.
    [02:06] Lawrence Vyceratops: amazing this is not widely understood
    [02:06] Wol Euler: it's too simple for many people :)
    [02:06] Wol Euler: people like to have hard-to-follow paths :)
    [02:06] Wol Euler: like crazy diets
    [02:06] Wol Euler: like only wearing white clothes

    [02:07] Lawrence Vyceratops: well, it is dressed up in mysticism; who can blame them for havng the wrong impression?
    [02:07] Wol Euler: like giving up all your wealth to a guru
    [02:07] Wol Euler smiles.
    [02:07] Wol Euler: it amuses me no end that the people who object to mysticism in tao or buddhism
    [02:07] Wol Euler: have no difficulty with a cookie being the body of christ :)
    [02:08] Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s more a habit then an actual understanding of the religious traditions
    [02:08] Wol Euler: on a related note, let me recommend a recent TED talk by Alain de Botton on "atheism 2.0"
    [02:09] Wol Euler: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/ala...heism_2_0.html
    [02:10] Wol Euler: adopting the best bits of religion (great art, music, architecture, social values, community spirit ...)
    [02:12] Lawrence Vyceratops: wouldn't that be picking something up?
    [02:13] Wol Euler smiles.
    [02:17] Yakuzza Lethecus: thx lawrence for bringing up one of the fundamental pab subjects, and everyone for sharing their contributions
    [02:17] Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
    [02:18] Zon Kwan: bye yaku
    [02:18] Wol Euler: bye yaku
    [02:18] Wol Euler: that was a fast exit :)
    [02:19] Wol Euler: actually I too will have to leave now, I'm working htis afternoon and have some things to do before then
    [02:19] Wol Euler: thanks everyone, this was a good discussion
    [02:19] Wol Euler: enjoy your sundays

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