2012.02.12 13:00 – Boundaries and barriers

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    Pema Pera: hi Aph!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Pema
    Aphrodite Macbain: really good to see you
    Pema Pera: same here :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: You are on New York right now aren’t'  you?
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Lucky you
    Pema Pera: quite cold today here, below freezing the whole day
    Pema Pera: but so far we've had a remarkably mild winter
    Aphrodite Macbain: It must be strange moving from climate to climate
    Pema Pera: and time zone to time zone :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Korel
    Pema Pera: hi Korel!
    Aphrodite Macbain: welcome. How are the studies going?
    Aphrodite Macbain: getting a break in March?
    Korel Laloix: Heya
    Korel Laloix: Painful but good.
    Korel Laloix: I have not even looked up when Spring Break is yet.
    Aphrodite Macbain: why painful? You ran too far?
    Korel Laloix: No, the studying is painful.
    Aphrodite Macbain: why?
    Korel Laloix: Did a half marathon yesterday so not running today.
    Aphrodite Macbain: the subject or the sitting?
    Korel Laloix: Just a lot of reading this semester.
    Korel Laloix: Both... smiles
    Aphrodite Macbain: easier to run than read! :-)
    Korel Laloix: Very true.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Congratulations

    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm waiting for a few more people before we begin discussing boundaries and borders
    Pema Pera: hi Maxine and Eliza and Zon!
    Aphrodite Macbain: I notice Eliza and Maxine are on line
    Aphrodite Macbain: ha!
    Korel Laloix: I was talking about that earlier today in a way.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Welcome all
    Maxine Walden: hi, everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aphrodite, everyone :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes? This morning at the 7 AM?
    Korel Laloix: No, in another chat.

    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Eliza, so glad you made it
    Pema Pera: hi O !
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Sam. Glad you made it too
    Aphrodite Macbain: Maxine - how's the computer?
    Maxine Walden: oh, still on an old one, thanks for asking. Hope I don't lurch around too much
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure you will be fine Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Just relax and enjoy the discussion maxine
    Maxine Walden: will do, Aph

    Aphrodite Macbain: grins at Maxine
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi oO0Oo

    Zon Kwan: heya

    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Zon
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Bleu. Good to see so many of you
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: hi Bleu!
    Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, bleu

    Aphrodite Macbain: So, as most of you may know, the topic for today, like the last 2 topics, is one that has been preoccupying me.
    Aphrodite Macbain: So I have no ready answers.

    Aphrodite Macbain: May I propose the subject of personal boundaries? The purpose of having boundaries is to protect and take care of ourselves. We need to be able to tell other people when they are acting in ways that are not acceptable to us. A first step is starting to know that we have a right to protect and defend ourselves. It is said that we have not only the right, but the duty to take responsibility for how we allow others to treat us. However, does the establishment of personal boundaries close us off, shut down an open mind and stop us from being flexible and sensitive to the needs of others? When does a boundary become a barrier? When do we allow ourselves lower the wall and listen to things we don't want to hear?

    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder whether it is an issue of language and defining the difference
    Aphrodite Macbain: What do you all think? To be able to say "no" 'stop" this is inappropriate"

    Korel Laloix: I think your premise is not entirely correct.
    Korel Laloix: I think we set some boundaries to protect others.
    Korel Laloix: Not ourselves.
    Zon Kwan: hm

    Bleu Oleander: where do our rights and duties come from?
    Bleu Oleander: are they created also?

    Aphrodite Macbain: Bleu- that is another set of interesting questions
    Bleu Oleander: yes :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: can you clarify Korel?
    Zon Kwan: we protect ourselves ..It’s the basic drive...to maintain ourselves
    Aphrodite Macbain: What kind of boundaries do we set to protect others?

    Korel Laloix: I am not the most healthy person in the world, so I sometimes stay away from people that I think I could be a bad influence on.
    Maxine Walden: you feel you might intrude on others' personal space or hurt their feelings, Korel, so you put up some protective walls?
    Korel Laloix: Of course. Might be appropriate to say, but will it get said?

    Zon Kwan: when we feel protected, we can listen to others...secondary drive

    Aphrodite Macbain: nods at Zon
    Aphrodite Macbain: my concern is that by setting boundaries- restrictions on what you will allow- you might be closing yourself off
    Korel Laloix: But what is wrong with that, if done in moderation... deliberately?
    Korel Laloix: I have certain walls I set up in SL.
    Aphrodite Macbain: let's consider this during the 90 seconds
    Zon Kwan: if i am open for a tiger to eat myself for dinner,,,i am too open to exist

    Pema Pera: hi Qt!
    Korel Laloix: Heya
    Bleu Oleander: hi Qt :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt :)
    oO0Oo Resident: Qt :)
    Qt Core: Hi all
    Zon Kwan: hi qt

    Korel Laloix: But my early experience in SL was a bit bad, so I feel I need to protect myself.
    Aphrodite Macbain: how would you do that Korel?
    Korel Laloix: And I think it is a good idea to protect yourself in any internet interaction.
    Aphrodite Macbain: How would you protect yourself?
    Korel Laloix: I don't tell certain things about me.
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods,
    Aphrodite Macbain: do you tell other avis that you don’t want to discuss certain things?
    Korel Laloix: I don't lie as such, but there are things that I slightly shift the truth on. I will.
    Aphrodite Macbain: these are the boundaries I am talking about, the ones we create for protection
    Korel Laloix: But I am usually direct anyway.
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods. it takes courage to communicate our desires and reservations: courage of our convictions
    Korel Laloix: That or just being pushy... smiles
    Qt Core: well, for what I’ve read it, (SL boundaries) are not so different from defenses one would use in rl, korel
    Aphrodite Macbain: What do others think? Eliza? Pema? Sam?
    Eliza Madrigal: when wandering gardens one day, the sign 'stay on the path' kept jumping out at me... pondered it a bit, considered my staying on the path in this context was about not being a stumbling block for others, so that we may all share and tend to the space, and also be the space for and with one another ... similar to what Eos said this morning concerning tending one's own boundaries perhaps
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes - tending to our own boundaries.. good way of putting it
    Wol Euler: :)

    Wol Euler: evening all, sorry I'm late
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Hi Wol
    Bleu Oleander: hi Wol :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Wol
    Pema Pera: hi Wol !
    Eliza Madrigal: nods Maxine
    Qt Core: hi to Wol and her air-defence radar hat ;-)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Wol

    Maxine Walden: In my experience, if I feel insecure in myself,  that I might not feel in full control, I am concerned the other person might feel that way too. Safety and insecurity to and from others often occur at the same time
    Aphrodite Macbain: Good observation Maxine.
    Zon Kwan: we all have our roles we need to play out
    Aphrodite Macbain: There are some, however, who are not aware of the needs of others and it requires more effort
    oO0Oo Resident: tension between setting a boundary to feel safer, maybe competing with "lowering the walls" to listen to what we may not want to hear.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Nods at Sam
    Maxine Walden: nods to Samuo
    Aphrodite Macbain: So creating boundaries that are not restrictive and when they restrict an open mind.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Porous boundaries? Flexible?
    Qt Core: oily ?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: greased
    Aphrodite Macbain: Can you give an example Sam or Pema?
    oO0Oo Resident: just noting the juxtaposition in your intro Aph
    Pema Pera: I find it difficult to make general statements about boundaries . . . in practice it is a matter of balance, and that's hard to define in a few words . . . also, the particulars are quite culture dependent (very different in Japan, in the US, and in various countries in Europe, in my experience)

    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves
    Bleu Oleander: hi steve :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Stevenaia
    Pema Pera: hi Steve!
    Wol Euler: hello stevie
    Aphrodite Macbain: we are talking about personal boundaries and when they are useful
    oO0Oo Resident: Stevnaia :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    oO0Oo Resident: "personal boundaries" interesting in context of explorations of no self?
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods-whereas psychiatrists would say protecting the ego which is self
    Wol Euler smiles.

    Open minds and willingness

    Kore Laloix: Why is an open mind a good thing? It seems to be a catch phrase when someone wants you to agree with them.I just find that phrase to rarely mean what it is thought to mean.

    stevenaia Michinaga: a path to growth
    oO0Oo Resident: more possibilities Korel? ::shrugs:::
    Korel Laloix: Yes it is, but that is usually not the way it is meant.

    Aphrodite Macbain: One doesn’t need to agree, just to listen
    Bleu Oleander: how does one recognize an open mind?
    Wol Euler: listening to an idea before rejecting it is a good sign :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: woa that's another good topic Bleu!
    Aphrodite Macbain: I can tell when someone doesn't have an open mind.They agree or disagree without first considering an idea
    Bleu Oleander: by what standards?
    Bleu Oleander: I think it's hard to judge when someone or even yourself has an open mind ... not something one "has" ... more like a process?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I guess it is a questioning mind, isn't it? curious?
    Bleu Oleander: questions aren't always open
    Aphrodite Macbain: willing to be changed?
    Maxine Walden: feeling safe enough to be curious and not having to be 'right' or 'reactive' perhaps
    Aphrodite Macbain: a barrier would be a closed mind
    oO0Oo Resident: willingness has something to do with openness I think
    Pema Pera: yes
    Korel Laloix: I think that is just an English idiom that I don't really understand.
    Korel Laloix: But it is negative to me.
    Bleu Oleander: awareness has something to do with openness
    Eliza Madrigal: so open heart trumps open mind?
    Aphrodite Macbain: deliberately maintaining an open attitude in both heart and mind; pre-judging/prejudice is a closed mind
    Pema Pera: a certain tentativeness, which I think is indeed recognizable (@ Sam)
    Wol Euler nods.
    Aphrodite Macbain: what is an open heart Eliza?
    Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like surgery :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) for me it means that willingness... I may not agree with something or understand something but the openness of heart means I will approach new continually
    Eliza Madrigal: something like that
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: so then an open heart is needed for an open mind to work effectively?
    oO0Oo Resident: not sort of talking about organs here.. are we?


    Self, no self and ego

    Pema Pera: Sam mentioned the connection with "no self" which I think shows in a kind of tentativeness that doesn't try to put things in stone, doesn't reify the self or ego -- and yes, leaves everything more open
    Aphrodite Macbain: some say we need to find self before we look for no-self
    Pema Pera nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: as a starting point
    Aphrodite Macbain: when we meditate
    Maxine Walden: a sense of inner balance, safety and self respect may, in my experience, lead to a sense of not having to focus on 'self' and thus it may drop from focus
    Aphrodite Macbain wonders whether that is the definition of happiness

    Wol Euler smiles.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed one may risk self in a way, by setting boundaries, at times
    oO0Oo Resident: that refinement Maxine seems to give a context for "leap"
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes leap from a solid base
    Maxine Walden: :) oh? Sam
    Maxine Walden: ah....
    Pema Pera: solid and open can go together
    Aphrodite Macbain: Like a child separating itself from its mother-connected but independent
    Pema Pera: as a concrete example, when I feel offended by somebody, I can try to assert myself, striking back in some sense, or at least blocking off, or I can try to remain more open and remain curious as to why the other would say/do such a thing
    Pema Pera: while remaining solid too in some sense
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- a great example Pema
    Pema Pera: as in not easily shaken by criticism
    Maxine Walden: agree, Pema

    stevenaia Michinaga: Or, Pema, why you feel they way you do by it
    Pema Pera: sorry, Steve?
    stevenaia Michinaga: if you feel offended, ... ask why you do (feel offended), not why they are offended.
    Pema Pera: ah, yes!
    Pema Pera: and you have given great examples, Steve, many times, in practice!
    Maxine Walden: when we feel less secure about ourselves we feel more reactive, offended rather than quietly solid whatever the other says

    Aphrodite Macbain: firmly seated in the saddle
    Pema Pera: Stevenaia the (almost) imperturbable :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: turn it back towards the other, always inquiring, trying to understand
    Wol Euler: :)

    Pema Pera: how did you learn to see it that way, Steve?
    stevenaia Michinaga: easily amused, difficult to offend
    Aphrodite Macbain: Stevenaia, you must have a deep rooted self confidence and acceptance
    Wol Euler nods.

    oO0Oo Resident: taking safe space from which to open, and ask questions.. and question assumptions

    Aphrodite Macbain: I feel that the pavilion can be thought of as a safe place like that

    Aphrodite Macbain: The most damage to a person happens, I gather, is when a child is not sure of its place, does/can not connect with the mother

    Maxine Walden: ...feels 'motherless' or not well held in her mind

    stevenaia Michinaga: it is usually those who offend who have the most to defend
    Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
    Korel Laloix: What do you mean by that?
    Maxine Walden: agree, they try to get their vulnerability into the other...
    Eliza Madrigal: trying to understand can be an issue in itself... we won't always understand or even find security ... so something to be said for learning to let things be open

    Wol Euler: hello santo, long time no see
    Pema Pera: hi Santo!
    Bleu Oleander: hi San :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: San how great to see you! We are talking about, among other things, the value and problem of creating personal barriers

    Santoshima Resident: hello everyone ;)

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi San :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: just as those who feel they need to make themselves superior are usually those who have a not so solid footing
    Qt Core: it may be childish but i love to see the reaction of people trying to offend me when i don't get offended ;-)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: did you feel like that already as a teenager, Steve? And in elementary school?

    stevenaia Michinaga: can't say Pema, when, probably listened to the "Loud" speakers and found they had less to say
    Bleu Oleander: some offend unintentionally
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods Bleu, but that is when it is most important to understand why you are offended, if it wasn’t intended
    Santoshima Resident: right!
    Eliza Madrigal: nods Bleu, most perhaps

    Aphrodite Macbain: Steve can you say more about your earlier statement?
    stevenaia Michinaga: about the "Loud" speaker

    Aphrodite Macbain: "it is usually those who offend who have the most to defend"
    stevenaia Michinaga: Aph
    Korel Laloix: Yes, what did you mean?
    stevenaia Michinaga: ok.. if it is someone's intent to offend you, they are just looking for a vulnerability to get you off balance. they are the ones who are insecure, not you, until you give them the "power" to offend
    stevenaia Michinaga: well, that is my take
    Wol Euler nods.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Stevenaia
    Maxine Walden: agree
    Korel Laloix: But I think most of the people don't want to offend you.
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Wol Euler: agreed :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: it is the ones who scream at you who have the weakest position
    Korel Laloix: Some get offended just because you have different ideas.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Some do it unintentionally as Bleu says
    stevenaia Michinaga: I agree Korel
    Korel Laloix: I run into that a lot.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps that is b/c they have put up personal barriers
    Wol Euler nods to Korel. Your ideas challenge theirs, which threatens them
    Korel Laloix: Why people started calling me "annoying".
    stevenaia Michinaga: but the one's who don't intend to should be forgiven quickest
    Maxine Walden: that may be too, Korel. Then do we need to look at our sensitivity, if we feel offended by them?
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, we need to listen more carefully
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes it is in the situation, also... that both have sensitivities, so not a matter of offended/offendee
    Korel Laloix: By category, I am very offendable.
    Korel Laloix: I just don't get offended a lot.

    oO0Oo Resident: offence implies judgments and is hard to evaluate from one side only.. but i feel wherever there is offence felt.. or perceived.. there is pain of some kind, and if one understands *that*, one might start there.
    Korel Laloix: Maybe I should more.
    Aphrodite Macbain: thank you Sam
    Pema Pera: that pain may be very hard to see . . .
    oO0Oo Resident: sometimes we infer that an "offender" is angry for instance, when they may simply be in a lot of pain
    Pema Pera: and in practice, fear and pain and reactivity are indeed all intermingled
    Korel Laloix: That is true, people who are hurting them loose sensitivity.



    Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps we will not need personal barriers in the future if we develop a position of peace within ourselves
    Aphrodite Macbain:…Perhaps a little too idealistic!
    Pema Pera: it's a gradual shift, I think, Aph
    stevenaia Michinaga: be a cloud in how you define yourself, not a rock
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, and probably takes a lifetime :-)
    Maxine Walden: but a worthy goal to my mind, Aph
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder why many old people are cranky then!
    Aphrodite Macbain: grins
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: pain :)
    Bleu Oleander: need a longer lifetime :)
    oO0Oo Resident: there can be real intelligence and wisdom in crankiness
    stevenaia Michinaga: certainly a learning experience
    Maxine Walden: :) and fear about the future or regret perhaps about the past
    Qt Core: nothing more to lose and no time to pay the consequence so they act

    Aphrodite Macbain: I keep thinking of Annie the Tibetan nun, sitting in her hut for over 30 years- the happiest person around
    Aphrodite Macbain: isolated from the world
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hell is other people.

    stevenaia Michinaga: wb San
    Santoshima Resident: ty

    Wol Euler: bye qt, wb santo
    Qt Core: time to go for me, bye all!
    Eliza Madrigal: bye Qt :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Qt.
    Bleu Oleander: bye Qt
    Maxine Walden: bye Qt
    Pema Pera: bye Qt

    Aphrodite Macbain: Bertram is leading a meditation in Perfect Paradise at 2
    Wol Euler: (nearly time for Bertram's meditation)
    Wol Euler: snap
    Aphrodite Macbain: crackle
    Eliza Madrigal: thank you Aphrodite, everyone
    Wol Euler: see you there, eliza
    Maxine Walden: thanks Aphrodite!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks for coming and contributing everyone.
    Bleu Oleander: bye for now all ... take care :)
    Eliza Madrigal: not sure...
    Pema Pera: yes thank you Aph!
    Korel Laloix: Ciao
    Eliza Madrigal: bye for now :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Bleu
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks Aph and everyone
    Wol Euler: bye eliza, bye bleu, bye maxine
    Wol Euler: thank you aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: yw Wol
    Pema Pera: thank you all!
    Pema Pera: bfn
    Wol Euler: I'm going to join Bertram
    Wol Euler: bye Pema, bye everyone
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Pema
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye.
    stevenaia Michinaga: tp pls Wol
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Everyone who is staying

    oO0Oo Resident: . Just reading back…not sure we addressed Bleu's questions, [13:12] Bleu (bleu.oleander): where do our rights and duties come from? [13:12] are they created also?

    Bleu (bleu.oleander): I'll need to leave also though. Thanks everyone.

    Aphrodite Macbain: Note Aph’s reply: “Bleu- that is another set of interesting questions.”

    Santoshima Resident: bye for now
    Korel Laloix: Ciao
    oO0Oo Resident: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: 〜waves〜
    oO0Oo Resident: ☻/
    oO0Oo Resident: /▌
    oO0Oo Resident: / \
    oO0Oo Resident: bfn

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