2012.02.19 01:00 - Kirchensteur

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    Eliza posted this session from the auto-listener database...


    [01:02] Wol Euler: good morning, yaku
    [01:02] Yakuzza Lethecus: guten morngen
    [01:03] Yakuzza Lethecus: morgen :)
    [01:03] Wol Euler: alles in ordnung heute?
    [01:04] Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, got my coffee and checked on several things, also easter vacation
    [01:04] Yakuzza Lethecus: a flight i am eagling upon got cheaper and i might book today even without having a go an a needed vacation day :P
    [01:05] Wol Euler: ah :)
    [01:06] Wol Euler: that is an advantage, sure
    [01:06] Yakuzza Lethecus: what´s an advantage ?
    [01:07] Wol Euler: not needing to use a holiday for travelling
    [01:07] Wol Euler: use in the sense of "waste" :)

    [01:08] Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, easter is good because of the friday and monday and it´s the same in sweden, they don´t have as many vacation days as we germans recieve
    [01:08] Wol Euler nods.
    [01:08] Wol Euler: I doubt if many countries do :)
    [01:08] Wol Euler: it seems to me that every month has at least one holiday in it, some two or three
    [01:09] Yakuzza Lethecus notices that he´s using vacation and holiday interchangably sometimes, but yeah that´s also true :)
    [01:10] Wol Euler: hmmmmmm, I think they are interchangeable. Vacation is english and holiday american.
    [01:10] Wol Euler: not all holidays are "holy days" :)
    [01:10] Wol Euler: that origin is long lost
    [01:11] Yakuzza Lethecus: there was a time when i went at least for easter and christmas to church, but then i even lost that habit, just free days by now
    [01:12] Wol Euler: probably the majority do not, these days

    [01:12] Wol Euler: although I was reading a piece in the local paper about the struggles of the local church with declining attendance
    [01:12] Wol Euler: they pointed out that still more people go to church than to live soccer
    [01:12] Yakuzza Lethecus: i am still paying my tax tho
    [01:13] Wol Euler: so clearly the problem is not the "audience" as such, clearly that still exists
    [01:13] Wol Euler: because nobody thinks live soccer is going to go broke
    [01:13] Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    [01:16] Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s a devils circle, they put "gemeindein" together and the pastor´s are becomming anonym
    [01:16] Wol Euler nods.
    [01:17] Yakuzza Lethecus: so less identification, more ppl leave, more putting together, and in the end the organization itself try´s to keep itself alive
    [01:17] Wol Euler: yep

    [01:18] Wol Euler: it's hard to know what they could do to break out of that cycle
    [01:18] Wol Euler: they are trying to solve it as a corporation would, closing branch offices and consolidating their products and services
    [01:18] Wol Euler: but that doesn#t apply well to people
    [01:19] Wol Euler: the analogy to soccer is a false one, I think, if it relied on donatoins and a small tax support it would be in trouble too
    [01:19] Wol Euler: but they charge admission.
    [01:20] Yakuzza Lethecus: they don´t recieve taxes everywhere, i think even in france they rely more on donations but never really got into that
    [01:20] Wol Euler nods.
    [01:21] Wol Euler: I wonder when it started to go bad? Presumably some historian could tell us
    [01:22] Wol Euler: because htey were getting enough income even a hundred years ago to be putting up large churches everywhere

    [01:22] Wol Euler: perhaps it coincides with the modern social state
    [01:22] Wol Euler: it now provides services that the church used to do
    [01:23] Wol Euler: and since we pay the state through taxes, people sensibly ask why they should pay the church now for something it no longer does
    [01:23] Yakuzza Lethecus: just googled, in france it was around the revolution that they lost theire chruch tenth (kirchenzehnt?)
    [01:23] Wol Euler: "tithe" is the usual word in english.
    [01:24] Wol Euler: still in use, apparently mormons are expected to tithe. There is said to be a huge social pressure to do so, though of course it is "optional and individual"

    [01:28] Wol Euler: I don't pay Kirchensteuer, actually. Purely by chance.
    [01:29] Wol Euler: when I moved here, the Anmeldeamt asked me, really casually, what church I belonged to. I had no idea what the question meant, so I answered really casually "none"
    [01:29] Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    [01:29] Wol Euler:if she has asked instead "which church do you wish your taxes to support", I might have given a very different answer
    [01:32] Yakuzza Lethecus: i wonder who recieves the money if you belong to a different church or won´t ppl be taxed at all if ur muslim or any other confession then lutheran or catholic
    [01:33] Wol Euler: good question!
    [01:33] Yakuzza Lethecus: if it count´s at all
    [01:33] Wol Euler: I don't know but I would guess that all christian religions are treated in the same way, receiving kirchensteuer
    [01:33] Wol Euler: and I would hope that synagogues and mosques do too
    [01:33] Wol Euler: but I don't know.
    [01:34] Wol Euler: that's really a good question :)
    [01:34] Yakuzza Lethecus: http://de.answers.yahoo.com/question...3194012AAlganT
    [01:35] Yakuzza Lethecus: sry for the log, it´s in german
    [01:35] Wol Euler: nice find, yaku :)

    [01:36] Wol Euler: summary: synagogues yes, mosques no. These are financed by donations, but largely by support from foreign countries
    [01:36] Wol Euler: it doesn't say that the mosques could not be supported through Kirchensteuer, so presumably they choose not to
    [01:36] Wol Euler: so as to escape state supervision, perhaps
    [01:38] Wol Euler: perhaps "escape" is too strong a word
    [01:39] Yakuzza Lethecus: but might partially be true
    [01:39] Yakuzza Lethecus: i will log out, thx for the time on a sunday morning
    [01:40] Yakuzza Lethecus: enjoy the day
    [01:40] Wol Euler: bye yaku!

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