2012.04.29 19:00 - Maps and Models We Like to Play With

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    l314159265 Resident: Hello
    l314159265 Resident: Seems we are the only ones so far.
    Raffila Millgrove: i am one of the members of Play as Being.. if i could answer any question? please don't hesistate?
    Raffila Millgrove: oh you're been here before?
    Raffila Millgrove: HI Matjaz.
    Matjaz Rives: what is
    l314159265 Resident: I have been here before MANY times (in a different incarnation). Thank you for your offer of help.
    Matjaz Rives: hello
    --BELL--

    Raffila Millgrove: oh great
    Raffila Millgrove motions to come sit.
    Matjaz Rives: I would
    Matjaz Rives: but date's calling
    Matjaz Rives: gotta split
    Matjaz Rives: maybe another time
    Raffila Millgrove: ok see you again sometime Mat. take care.
    Matjaz Rives: you too
    Raffila Millgrove: we meet at 1 and 7.. pm and am.. so come again.
    Matjaz Rives: Thanks
    Raffila Millgrove: so.. Roger this is an alt avi.. like you are already a member of PaB?
    l314159265 Resident: I am not a member.
    Raffila Millgrove: oh.
    Raffila Millgrove: not in another avatar?
    l314159265 Resident: Nope.
    Raffila Millgrove: ah. well it's nice to have you with us today.
    l314159265 Resident: Thank you.
    Raffila Millgrove: recently we decided.. that we'd do "theme" weeks.
    l314159265 Resident: What is the theme today?
    Raffila Millgrove: to give the sessions some focus.. if the group members.. felt like it.. for that hour.
    Raffila Millgrove: so. we're on this new week today.. and the theme...
    Raffila Millgrove: is related to this presentation that Adams gave this morning.
    Raffila Millgrove: hehehe and now i have to go to.. look it up.. cause i cannot state it from memory!
    l314159265 Resident: Is there a transcript of that presentation?
    Raffila Millgrove: oh yes. there is.
    Raffila Millgrove: i can.. put the link here.. one second. must go serarching the files.. just take a minute on it.
    Raffila Millgrove: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/index.php?title=Chat_Logs/2012/04/2012.04.29_07:00_-_Theme_Session:_Using_One%27s_Own_Tradition_as_a_Resource
    l314159265 Resident: Thanks, though, no one else seems to be here tonight!
    Raffila Millgrove: that's the session.
    Raffila Millgrove: we. what am I? chopped liver? hehe
    l314159265 Resident: Thanks, looking.
    Raffila Millgrove: (so that's the theme for this week: Using one's own tradition(s) as a resource
    l314159265 Resident: I meant, in addition to us, of course!
    Raffila Millgrove: haha wel people wander in late a lot. i often show up late.
    l314159265 Resident: Chopped liver - funny.
    Raffila Millgrove: you don't know that expression?
    l314159265 Resident: I do :)
    Raffila Millgrove: oh ok.
    Raffila Millgrove: so many difficult cultures here. never know if we're always communicating ok or not.
    Raffila Millgrove: i don't want to interrupt you, if you are reading?
    l314159265 Resident: I'm not sure I'll do well with the benefitting from one's tradition theme, as I pretty much ignore that and reinvent everything.
    Raffila Millgrove: yes.. well.. i dunno what i will do with this.. either . really.
    Raffila Millgrove: cause last week. i just posted these nine verses from the Bible. which is kind of going to be my first/last statement on that topic. haha. cuase it cover the whole thing for me.
    l314159265 Resident: I try to find the truth of things directly.
    Raffila Millgrove: hey Cal!
    Raffila Millgrove: i just posted the link of this morning's session for Roger cause he asked to see it.. asked about the theme.
    Raffila Millgrove: and he's commenting now on it.. as you see.
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Raff and Pi
    Calvino Rabeni gets curious
    Raffila Millgrove: glad you are here Cal. i was worried i might have to claim it and i forgot what part two of that involves. haha
    Calvino Rabeni: Part 2 is the tricky part
    Raffila Millgrove: so Roger.. you do not think that your early background in some religious.. affiliation... affects you these days?
    Raffila Millgrove: maybe you didn't have a childhood of some religious .. teaching?
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Aph !
    Raffila Millgrove: hi Aph.
    --BELL--

    Aphrodite Macbain: Good evening
    l314159265 Resident: I always found it "alien". No "Western" traditions made a lot of sense to me. I later did find more connection to Eastern traditions. Today, I see truth and difficulties in many traditions. I try to find my own truth, and do use traditions as information to consider in building a world/universe view that makes sens to me.
    Raffila Millgrove: aha. i think a lot of PaBs might.. feel the same as you do Roger.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Raffila, Hello Roger. It's nice to meet you.
    Raffila Millgrove: the "life as laboratory" analogy.
    Raffila Millgrove: Aphro and Cal. Roger says he has been here many times.. i check with him as I wasn't acquainted.. when we first arrived.
    l314159265 Resident: I do not discount their value, as a working framework from which people may launch more personalized study.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Roger can you explain to me what the significance of the numbers in your name? Is it a mathematicin-joke?
    Aphrodite Macbain: *mathematical
    l314159265 Resident: I never liked the canned last names, and thought these could be changed after assigned. I did not relalize they would show in addition to the chosen screen name.. The number is just the beginning of pi, with the letter "L" in front since many systems don't like a number to start a login id. Nothing mysterious or significant.
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah beginning of pi... how many more numbers come aftr them? :-)
    l314159265 Resident: An infinite number of digits, which do not repeat. It's a transcendental number.
    Aphrodite Macbain likes the concept of a transcendental number
    Aphrodite Macbain: We had a wonderful session at 1pm today!
    Raffila Millgrove appreciates that Roger spoke so eloquently to this week's new theme.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm sorry I missed it.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Have your religious traditions helped you Raffi?
    Raffila Millgrove: ah .. i mention to roger that last week i post.. some Bible verses.. that cover my.. resource on.. the topic.
    Raffila Millgrove: lol
    Raffila Millgrove: so yes.
    Aphrodite Macbain: a Christian tradition?
    l314159265 Resident: In Christianity, there are so many sects with conflicting understandings.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Cinda!
    Aphrodite Macbain: long time no see
    Raffila Millgrove: yes. but i quoted from the Bible.. that represent my Lutheran heritage. that was not really the one.. that i had the most respect for.. among the various.. groups of Christians where i have study or been affiliated. I am a member of the Brethrens.
    Raffila Millgrove: i mean in practice.
    Lucinda Lavender: Hiya Everyone:)
    Raffila Millgrove: it was the Brethrens.. who practiced that.. and not just talk the talk. I respect them for walking the walk.
    l314159265 Resident: Sect #1 to sect #2: "You approach God incorrectly, and you are all going to hell." Sect #2 to sect #1: "No, you are going to hell!"
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hell is a concept that is only conceived by Christianity I believe
    Raffila Millgrove: they are considered mainstream protestants by the way... but are a small group .. compared to say Presbyterians or Methodists.
    Raffila Millgrove: no Aphrodite.. other religions have their own versions of hell...
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hell is also a very Old Testament belief
    l314159265 Resident: I think if the Teacher Jesus were here today, he would be sad at the confusion of his original teaching, which I think was simple and straightforward.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Really? Which ones Raffi?
    Raffila Millgrove: one second.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Do unto others....
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Stevenaia !
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi steve
    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi boxy
    --BELL--

    Alfred Kelberry: roger, new guy :)
    l314159265 Resident: Roger - old guy, with lost password/avi moving to a new computer.
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, ok :)
    Raffila Millgrove: Jainism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Sikhism—the main religions originating in India—all affirm reincarnation and the transmigration of souls; moreover, Hindus and Buddhists recognize thousands of hells. Because of reincarnation, however, the possibility of eventual purification and deliverance is maintained, even if this liberation may require countless lifetimes. The fear of hell remains a living reality among many people today, especially in Christian and Muslim circles. In modern secular societies, however, the word hell has assumed a largely metaphorical meaning. Situations of poverty, violence, and devastation are described frequently as “living hells.” Many psychologists and sociologists understand hell as an archetype of the deepest fears of the human imagination, expressing the thoughts of torture, rejection, and abandonment that circulate within the human psyche.
    Alfred Kelberry: starting from scratch
    Aphrodite Macbain: Roger sounds like he has found his feet
    Raffila Millgrove: Zorastrians also believe in hell.. so the concept is found in world relgions aside from christianity
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Raffi - I stand corrected. :-)
    Raffila Millgrove: np.
    Raffila Millgrove: didn't mean to "correct" just amplify..
    Raffila Millgrove: since you asked em to.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I understand. np
    Aphrodite Macbain: The underworld is an even older concept. tied in with agrarian myths of death and rebirth
    l314159265 Resident: My personal belief is that the only hells are those humans manage to create here on earth. The others are fear-control mechanisims devised by theocratic power structures.
    Raffila Millgrove: yes. Greeks and Romans worked on it heavy too
    Alfred Kelberry: btw, if souls are reincarnated, how is it that the population doesn't stay constant? there is an explanation which i forgot :/
    Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Roger. We create our own hells. Ansd as somebody said "hell is other people"
    Raffila Millgrove: One of reasons why i liked the Epicureans so much.. is that they eliminated.. both heaven and hell by saying they felt there was no afterlife. this removed fear and .. reinforced the pleasures of This life as being important.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Sound Buddhist in that it focuses on the present.
    Raffila Millgrove: they got a bad rap later for being hedonists. but they reallywere not originally.
    Alfred Kelberry: raff, a good example of being in the moment :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: see above!
    Alfred Kelberry: see below!
    Alfred Kelberry: :P
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    Raffila Millgrove: haha. sits between above and below.. in the now.
    Aphrodite Macbain: in the ever evolving and changing present
    Alfred Kelberry: i suppose random souls come into existence now and then
    l314159265 Resident: Re: Reincarnation/soul count - there can be variation in how many are here vs. in other dimensional spaces. Some say animal souls which evolve sufficiently may reincarnate as humans. I know this is sacrilegious in some systems.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think that Buddhism has had the most influence on me - and this has only been recently acquired belief system or philosophy
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, thanks, roger
    Alfred Kelberry: which only shows how good animals are :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: or how pushy
    Raffila Millgrove: i accidentally posted one day that i read the book the Verve. which was my aphasia kicking up. The book is the Swerve and it's about how the philosophy of the Epicureans was nearly lost. and how it influenced the Renasiance and later centuries (i can not spell that word!)
    Alfred Kelberry: can't get karma points for being pushy
    l314159265 Resident: I know some animal souls whihc demonstrate more selflessness and love than some humans.
    Alfred Kelberry: roger, what is the next karmic stage for human?
    Alfred Kelberry: roger, dogs :)
    Alfred Kelberry: para girl!
    stevenaia Michinaga: looking to confirm... seems there is not a jewish equivalent of hell
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Paradise
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Paradise !
    Paradise Tennant: hiya stev boxy luci aph raf cal roger
    l314159265 Resident: I understand karma (action in Sanskrit) just to mean that our actions have consequences, and that we later experience those, not as retribution, but as feedback by which we may learn and adjust our behavior. Re next step, I think that's different for every person depending on what next steps they would like to take, and what they are ready for.
    Alfred Kelberry: i wonder if the karmic system is built the way that a human simply can not reach the next level
    Raffila Millgrove: the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hádēs refer to the netherworld, a shadowy realm of the dead more than a place of torment
    Alfred Kelberry: roger, isn't being reborn as a cockroach for bad deeds a retribution? :)
    Aphrodite Macbain tiptoes away to eat dinner
    Alfred Kelberry: eat well, girl
    Lucinda Lavender: waves to aph!
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite aph
    --BELL--

    Alfred Kelberry: brb
    l314159265 Resident: A cockroach would not have the mental capacity - I think - to benefit and advance from human lessons. I think it more like that a harmful human would come back having experiences on the receiving side of abuse, by which to understand and learn what that behavior causes in others.
    Calvino Rabeni: That sounds a bit like retribution
    Calvino Rabeni: Instant Karma also works on the positive side
    Calvino Rabeni: if it's an ethicized interpretation of the simple laws of action
    l314159265 Resident: It may seem that way, but if it is caused by the initiator, it is self-inflicted.
    Raffila Millgrove: good to see you roger. glad you made it today.. and wishing you a great week to everyone.
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite raf :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Religious traditions are the collective ideas of huge numbers of people over vast spans of time ... people of all different life circumstances and characters .. to me that throws into doubt the effort to "interpret" a religion as if it were a logically consistent system with clear ideas
    Calvino Rabeni: So you have people making up ideas that are sort of consistent
    Calvino Rabeni: and using it to justify or interpret their ethics, as much as taking their ethics from it
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd expect there to be "he got what was coming to him" interpretations of karma as punishment
    Lucinda Lavender: feeling very tired tonight...see you all another time:)
    Calvino Rabeni: and more enlightened interpretations of people learning from their actions for a better spiritual purpose
    stevenaia Michinaga: night luci
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care, sleep well Cinda
    l314159265 Resident: Given the conflict in basic ideas among the many established traditions, it seems a truth-seeker has no choice but to analyze and interpret. and synthesize.
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite luci sweet dreams
    Lucinda Lavender: thanks all...same for you...:)
    Alfred Kelberry: roger, i think this is what dharma cultivates
    Calvino Rabeni: there are a lot of ways to interpret, aren't there?
    Alfred Kelberry: pema has his own interpretation which he is exploring through his creation of play as being
    Alfred Kelberry: pemayana :)
    Paradise Tennant: you know I often wonder if realization can come through thought
    Paradise Tennant: or if it does not require an absence of thought
    Alfred Kelberry: there are followers
    Alfred Kelberry: i'll let cal answer that, para :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder if his ears are ringing
    Alfred Kelberry: pema san!
    --BELL--

    Alfred Kelberry: cal :)
    l314159265 Resident: A seeker after belonging, may succumb to a convenient system. A seeker after the truth, may be more daring and step beyond one's birth tradition. Truth can ring true in one's heart. There are also many valid paths/traditions to higher truth. That is why respect is appropriate toward all paths.
    Alfred Kelberry: roger, good words
    Pema Pera: hi there!
    Alfred Kelberry: pema :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Greetings Pema :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves to Pema
    Calvino Rabeni: Long time no see
    l314159265 Resident: And to add to that, different people find different paths more suited for them. Variety is the spice of life.
    Paradise Tennant: hiya pema
    Pema Pera loves variety :)
    Alfred Kelberry: roger, which is why i struggle with the rigid ways of christianity. though respectfully.
    stevenaia Michinaga: dozing off, bed time for me
    Alfred Kelberry: pema killed the conversation :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    l314159265 Resident: Re struggle with Christianity, given the many sects, it must be that much of current dogma was created by people, and not the direct teachings of Jesus. It is for you to discriminate the true original teachings. I would guess that you would have had far less or no struggle with the original direct teachings.
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite stev :))
    Pema Pera: like in: "curiosity killed the cat?" @ Alfred
    Calvino Rabeni: good rest, Stevenaia
    Pema Pera: bye Steve!
    Calvino Rabeni: curiosity .. threat or menace?
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes it energizes .. sometimes it does the opposite it seems
    Alfred Kelberry: maybe these are few minutes of adaptation to the new comer :)
    Pema Pera: yes, Roger; and the gospel of Marc is an example, probably the oldest and closer to the original -- more questioning and less dogmatic
    Alfred Kelberry: roger, true that
    Calvino Rabeni: that sounds likely Alfred
    Calvino Rabeni: oh true, roger that :)
    l314159265 Resident: By way of disclosure, in speaking of Jesus, I should note that I come from a Jewish background. Of course Jesus was a nice Jewish boy. (I say that playfully, with respect and love.)
    Alfred Kelberry: actually jesus was a girl
    Paradise Tennant: nods at alfred :) and gives him a big smiles
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Could it be, people of jewish background have a bit of an advantage in the world of buddhist teaching?
    Alfred Kelberry: when a messenger is a guy, he's a prophet. when it's a girl, she's a witch :)
    Alfred Kelberry: something is odd about this concept
    l314159265 Resident: In the corporate world, a powerful male CEO is a revered leader, a powerful female CEO can be called a (rhymes with witch) - so unfair.
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, i think people with open mind do
    Alfred Kelberry: roger :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps Al it's related to the tradition of ethical and religous discourse
    Alfred Kelberry: i like rhyming poems
    Calvino Rabeni: which appears as open mind
    Pema Pera: (ah, lunch appearing in the little restaurant here; have to return -- hope I didn't disturb the conversation too much by brief appearance)
    Pema Pera: (just wanted to say hello :-)
    Pema Pera: bfn
    Calvino Rabeni: No, made its position or momentum more indeterminate, that's all
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite pema
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, i'm totally disturbed by the pema's short appearance
    Calvino Rabeni: I wanted to ask him about the latest universe simulation project
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, what is it?
    Alfred Kelberry: hi, dran :)
    l314159265 Resident: My current god-concept, is that of consciousness/energy/intelligence/creativity as an inherent property of the living universe, and that EVERYTHING is divine. However I also do believe in a multi-dimensional universe teaming with intelligent beings of all kinds and all levels of development on many levels - including angels. I'm not sure if there is a name for a theology with an abstract godhead, and yet angels too. Can anyone help with that?
    --BELL--

    Alfred Kelberry: roger, that's like a chapter from the master and margarita :)
    l314159265 Resident: I was not aware of that. I'll check out the reference.
    Alfred Kelberry: abstract and theologically mystic :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Al, well essentially, its the first-ever supercomputer simulation of the evolution of the universe
    Calvino Rabeni: it's planned to use 3500 years of supercomputer time
    Calvino Rabeni: with the assumption that increase of speed or quantum computation will make it yield results in much less time :)
    Alfred Kelberry: this is exciting
    Paradise Tennant: smiles hiya dranna you been before I believe :) welcome
    Paradise Tennant: let me just give you a notecard
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Paradise :)
    Calvino Rabeni: There's the link, Alfred - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120412133058.htm
    Alfred Kelberry: i really can't wait to jump off this old von neumann technology
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: now has to wiki old von neumann technology :)
    Alfred Kelberry: 2012 and we still fiddle with mechanical drives
    Alfred Kelberry: same goes for cars... got faster, stylish, but still same old tech behind it
    l314159265 Resident: Each of us is a node in the vast cosmic "cloud computer" zero-time interfaced with via macroscopic quantum entanglement.
    Alfred Kelberry: simulation is fun, but it's as good as its underlying model
    Alfred Kelberry: in any case, exciting news
    Alfred Kelberry: thanks, cak
    l314159265 Resident: (This node needs typing lessons.)
    Alfred Kelberry: cal
    Paradise Tennant: looks for her macrosope
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Paradise Tennant: so we connect in a way we cannot really explain for a purpose yet to be determined :) we sound like a simulation
    Calvino Rabeni: a simulation means that something happens in two different ways
    l314159265 Resident: Theosophical teachings, plus other traditions, speak of an etheric tube which may be extended slightly from the third eye by one with awakened kundalini, giving rise to the ability to view the microscopic, even down to atomic levels, and up to vast cosmic levels - Paradise's macroscope. The see more on this microscopic vision, google: etheric tube microscopic theosophical.
    Paradise Tennant: googles

    sim·u·la·tion

    noun

    1. S: (n) simulation (the act of imitating the behavior of some situation or some process by means of something suitably analogous (especially for the purpose of study or personnel training))

    2. S: (n) simulation, computer simulation ((computer science) the technique of representing the real world by a computer program) "a simulation should imitate the internal processes and not merely the results of the thing being simulated"

    3. S: (n) model, simulation (representation of something (sometimes on a smaller scale))

    4. S: (n) pretense, pretence, pretending, simulation, feigning (the act of giving a false appearance) "his conformity was only pretending"

     

    Calvino Rabeni: definition 3 might be an interpretation of fractal structure
    Alfred Kelberry: roger, very fishy :)
    Calvino Rabeni: but if that's true the simulation is a byproduct of fractal structure in the origination of pattern
    Paradise Tennant: find 4 interesting because .. I suspect a lot of what we take as tangible and real is not :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    l314159265 Resident: Re: "so we connect in a way we cannot really explain for a purpose yet to be determined :) we sound like a simulation" - I think the purpose is the expansion of love, consciousness, expression of higher forms of life, spiritual awareness and growth - the universe knowing itself on increasingly higher levels.
    Alfred Kelberry: if it has an effect on us, it is real. even if imaginary.
    --BELL--

    Calvino Rabeni: definition 1 somehow doesn't satisfy, for aesthetic reasons ... considering that the universe might prefer to be more creative in the moment, rather than trying something out by simulation then doing it for real
    dranna Tempura: and the op balence is?
    Alfred Kelberry: op balance?
    l314159265 Resident: Re: simulation, we can imagine anything. Our minds are a simulator. But then we can manifest those simulations (plans). We are dream manifestation systems.
    dranna Tempura: never one without another?
    Paradise Tennant: hmmm like dream manifestation systems
    dranna Tempura: not saying it right sorry
    Calvino Rabeni: Definition 3 reminds me of Steven Wright's joke about having a map of the United States that was on a 1 to 1  scale - actual size - and then spending his summer vacation unfolding it
    l314159265 Resident: Oops - I did not observe silence. -or- Dream Manifestation Beings (DMBs).
    dranna Tempura: lol sounds like a useless task
    Paradise Tennant: well certainly a waste of a summer vacation :) but lovely that such a map might exist :)
    dranna Tempura: wouldn't need glasses lol
    Paradise Tennant: no ! :))
    Calvino Rabeni: hehe
    Calvino Rabeni: All animals are reality simulators, in order to play with the dynamic universe with some anticipation or fore-knowledge
    Calvino Rabeni: simulating "what's next" and taking it as reality
    l314159265 Resident: Steven Wright- "I once came home and all of my furniture had been completely rearranged, and put back into exactly the same place."
    Alfred Kelberry: is there an end to reincarnation at some point? can you seize to exist in this reality and never appear again?
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe if we stop "seizing" :)
    Paradise Tennant: yes we just let go but you still have to come back to help everyone else let go :)
    l314159265 Resident: Once you learn all the lessons of this planet, there are others, or you can reincarnate in other dimensions, but often, people come back anyway as teachers, by way of compassion, to help lift the others.
    Paradise Tennant: so no out anytime soon :)
    Alfred Kelberry: so it's never ending? no special case when it stops happening?
    Paradise Tennant: though apparently the dalai lama has asked not to come back
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing that makes me wonder, is the negative language in some of the formulations from buddhism ... so for instance, if you could do all the "NOT"s then what would you have?
    Calvino Rabeni: So for instance - not attachment, not aversion, not indifference
    Alfred Kelberry: what?
    Calvino Rabeni: what would that look like, exactly? what kind of state would such a person be in?
    Alfred Kelberry: not understanding :)
    Paradise Tennant: it is not negative
    Paradise Tennant: it just not been well expressed
    Calvino Rabeni: is there a reason for that
    Alfred Kelberry: ahhh... i get it
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps it's important for it to be indeterminate
    Alfred Kelberry: i suppose it would be an utopian state of wu wei
    Paradise Tennant: it is really seeing :) so when you really see you see the dream :) the attachement falls away we don't cling .. because we know that they are not real
    Calvino Rabeni: for example, someone who practiced those nots, would they be flexible? creative? intelligent? compassionate? etc.
    l314159265 Resident: Some literature talks about some (not all) enlightened beings choosing to merge there consciousness back into the infinite ocean of consciousness - but I really don't see the point of that. Seems like a lot of work for nothing! I think it's better to stay to play and help.
    l314159265 Resident: (merge their consciousness)
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, you take an absolute proposition, which is fine for a philo discussion, but has no practical application :)
    Calvino Rabeni: that makes me wonder whether philo discussions would be worthwhile
    Paradise Tennant: there are not really nots
    Paradise Tennant: just more letting go of what is not real
    Paradise Tennant: and centering on what is
    Paradise Tennant:

    METTA-- Goodwill, compassionate love
    KARUNA---Kindness, sympathy
    MUDITA-- Sympathetic joy without jealousy for the happiness of others
    UPEKKHA-- Equanimity or an unbiased attitude for all Buddha

    Calvino Rabeni: thanks Para
    Alfred Kelberry: if they're sufficiently entertaining :)
    Calvino Rabeni: there are the positive formulations too
    Paradise Tennant: dranna has been compiling dharma notes and this is one of them that I really like because it puts simply what is important
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems like D.L. is quite open to the non-continuance of himself, and of Buddhism as well .. is that an example of non-attachment?
    Paradise Tennant: more of fatique I suspect
    Paradise Tennant: he is tired
    Alfred Kelberry: hehe
    Paradise Tennant: and worn from heartache and loss
    --BELL--

    Alfred Kelberry: too much suffering? he's doing it wrong! :)
    Paradise Tennant: lol maybe !
    Calvino Rabeni: and Thich Nat Han suggests the next Buddha will be a Sangha (a collective)
    Calvino Rabeni: these seem like pretty non-dogmatic positions
    l314159265 Resident: I must say goodnight. Goodbye to all, and thank you for your conversation, insights, and company.
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Pi
    dranna Tempura: nite
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite roger
    Paradise Tennant: I should go too still have to walk the dog and it is close to midnight the alarm will ring before I know it
    Paradise Tennant: smiles thank you :) will reread this log .. it was lively :)
    Calvino Rabeni: About your earlier question about thought
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Do we sometimes think by not-thinking?
    Paradise Tennant: ?
    Paradise Tennant: I think there is knowing without thought
    Calvino Rabeni: About realization being possible through thought or requring an absence of it
    Calvino Rabeni: it depends on what one means by thought
    Calvino Rabeni: here's one quote
    Calvino Rabeni: Physicist David Bohm says that

    "Most thought is collective in origin [although] each individual does something with it".... If collective thinking is an ongoing stream, "thoughts" are like leaves floating on the surface that wash up on the banks. We gather in the leaves, which we experience as "thoughts." We misperceive the thoughts as our own, because we fail to see the stream of collective thinking from which they arise....
    http://www.co-intelligence.org/CIQuotes.html

    Calvino Rabeni: and if that's the case, we're tapping not just other peoples cogitations but the intelligent process reality itself
    Calvino Rabeni: so thought is a kind of interpretation for what's already known
    Calvino Rabeni: like the final step, where one tells the story
    Calvino Rabeni: of having gone fishing on those banks :)
    Calvino Rabeni: the "stream" of thought
    Calvino Rabeni: connected to the "ocean" of being
    Paradise Tennant: smiles,  I always have a feeling that when I have a good idea it's something that has just landed lightly on my shoulder :) something that was just floating
    Paradise Tennant: and if you think back to all the questions you have answered yourself but helped by having someone else stand by you and ponder
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: nods, that is an interesting effect
    Paradise Tennant: it is like having someone else's brain just near you for a bit .. opens the door
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Alfred Kelberry: "judge" - i like it :)
    Paradise Tennant: like 4 again
    Paradise Tennant: a personal beiief or judgement that is not founded on proof or certainty
    Paradise Tennant: we so take our thoughts for real when clearly they are not
    Paradise Tennant: real
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure how we take them for real
    Alfred Kelberry: why are they not real?
    Paradise Tennant: we assume they have veracity
    Calvino Rabeni: Is anyone so sure of themselves?
    Paradise Tennant: we think all manner of stuff that has no bearing other than in our mind
    dranna Tempura: they are real in a sence of say making decisions for here
    Alfred Kelberry: false does not exclude reality
    Calvino Rabeni: we use imperfect knowledge as a guide to behavior
    dranna Tempura: but it all we have
    Paradise Tennant: we fabricate a dream world with make believe
    dranna Tempura: only in sl lol
    Calvino Rabeni: just a wild guess, an improvisation, pretending it has more consistency than it does
    Alfred Kelberry: i think it's perfectly real. even in a physiological sense. synapse relations.
    Calvino Rabeni: and a lot depends on doing that ... both survival and ... entertainment
    Paradise Tennant: if you really parce everything down to what you can truly prove truly know .. it always a very skinny column
    Alfred Kelberry: also, as i said earlity, i think if something has an effect on you, it is real, regarding of its actual state
    Paradise Tennant: dream like real
    dranna Tempura: yes
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    --BELL--

    Alfred Kelberry: para, this is a common practice in the realm of math and logic, which works very well
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at boxy
    Alfred Kelberry: or science in general in its reductionism
    Calvino Rabeni: Another quote:

    We are all in the same boat, in a story sea, and we owe each other a terrible loyalty.

    Calvino Rabeni: That quote was by an English christian, G K Chesterton
    Calvino Rabeni: or perhaps he meant "respect"
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at cal
    Alfred Kelberry: makes me think of a korean or japanese society
    Paradise Tennant: in a loyal manner
    Calvino Rabeni: Respect and gratitude are the yang and yin of an effective relationship to reality.
    Paradise Tennant: big smile that is so true
    Calvino Rabeni: the one about loyalty, I meant
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at eveyone sleepily the midnight bell has tolled and I am starting feel a bit like a pumpkin :) think I will trundle and ponder life in a boat on a sea of stories ..very happy I get to share them with all of you :)
    Calvino Rabeni: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: let the trundling commence :)
    Calvino Rabeni: BYE
    Paradise Tennant: namaste my friends :))
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    dranna Tempura: ty for your time
    Alfred Kelberry: i am not sleepy at all
    Calvino Rabeni: YW dranna :)
    dranna Tempura: byby for now
    Calvino Rabeni: bye !
    Calvino Rabeni: With the aid of green tea, I am less sleepy than I ought to be
    Calvino Rabeni: projects await :)
    Calvino Rabeni: take care, everyone ... Boxy :)

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