2012.07.16 07:00 - Theme Session 2: Developing More of a Connection Between Science and PaB

    Table of contents
    No headers

    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal, who placed greetings and banter at the end of the log for clarity...

    theme session boxy pema_003.png

    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Boxy!
    Zen Arado: Hi Lici, Boxy
    Alfred Kelberry: good to see you all
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, shall we start? :)
    Pema Pera: Alfred, I suggest that you continue your critical questioning
    Alfred Kelberry: do you have a cup of tea ready, pema? :)
    Alfred Kelberry: pema, ok...
    Pema Pera: and I'm happy to respond and jump in at any point
    Eliza Madrigal: That seems good. We'll give 20 minutes for Pema and Boxy and then open the floor for questions and comments
    Bruce Mowbray runs to fill up coffee mug.
    Pema Pera: it's 11 pm here, a bit late for tea
    Bleu Oleander: hi Kiremimi :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kiremimi :) You are just in time

    Alfred Kelberry: so, last time we concluded that there's no unified framework in the spiritual field and each school has its own methods and what have them.

                            [technical issues text here moved to the very bottom of the log]

    Pema Pera: anyway, yes, let's get started
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, since pema will do most of the writing, i think it's fine to go on
    Pema Pera: yes, Alfred, no "universal spirituality framework" yet
    Pema Pera: (Kiremimi is now using her own separate internet wifi)
    Pema Pera: (also slow here, but at least we are now independently slow)
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Eliza Madrigal: :))

    Alfred Kelberry: so, since there's no general framework, we can not put a tap on methodology or experiment results. which lead us to separate schools. and of course, pema is most intimate with play as being.

    Alfred Kelberry: let's now hear how experiments are being conducted in pab, what research questions they carry, and what constitutes results of such inquires
    Pema Pera: you mean PaB as the community that we have formed over the last five years?
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, pab group


    Alfred Kelberry: is there a distinction with other pabs?
    Pema Pera: so far, we have not done many experiments, as a group. When I think of "Play as Being", there is the notion itself, to really spend a significant idea of your daily life to play as Being, with a clear idea of what Being means, or at least a sense of direction -- and there is the community which so far does not have a strong connection with the notion "Being", more with "playing" and with a wonderful atmosphere of cameraderie
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Pema Pera: So, speaking for myself, I am engaged in my own PaB explorations, and then there is the group, which I also enjoy being part of, but which has much less a sense of direct exploration
    Pema Pera: so we have to choose which one to discuss, or if both, in what order

    Alfred Kelberry: do you agree then with my argument that pab lacks scientific exploration?
    Pema Pera: which pab?
    Pema Pera: the community?
    Pema Pera: or my vision?
    Alfred Kelberry: then it is more of a discussion group focused on "play" rather than "being"?
    Alfred Kelberry: pab as the group
    Pema Pera: it's an interesting question. There IS a very special something about PaB the community
    Pema Pera: it is much more than just a discussion group
    Pema Pera: and I'm not quite sure why
    Pema Pera: there is this sense of harmony and openness
    Pema Pera: harmony with little need for protection
    Pema Pera: that may be unique in SL
    Pema Pera: and it *may be* related to the idea behind PaB
    Pema Pera: even though we rarely talk about that connection . . . .
    Alfred Kelberry: i'll take it as a yea :)
    Alfred Kelberry: yes
    Pema Pera: a yeah is fine too :)

    Pema Pera: one thing that I think is similar to PaB-the-vision and science is that in both cases there is this openness for new ideas, without believing and without disbelieving
    Pema Pera: and it seems that PaB-the-community carries that quality as well

    Pema Pera: now the two main questions are:
    Pema Pera: experimental: is dropping and stopping at regular intervals comparable to scientific experimentation?
    Alfred Kelberry: well, surprisingly, this is it. pema answered my initial question i brought up as a theme topic - science in pab :) there is no or little of science present
    Pema Pera: theoretical: is the notion of Being something comparable to a scientific theory?

    Pema Pera: so one answer and two questions:
    Pema Pera: one answer: I do sense a "spirit of science way of thinking" in PaB-the-community
    Pema Pera: and the two questions:
    Pema Pera: we could try to develop more of a connection between science and PaB through both experiment and theory
    Pema Pera: but so far that has hardly been done yet
    Alfred Kelberry: pema, i find that pab openness is directed to spiritual practices. but somehow, falls short when it comes to more secular practices
    Pema Pera: if, and only if, there is enough interest, I'm perfectly happy to explore those two questions

    Pema Pera: can you give an example, Alfred?
    Pema Pera: Alfred?


    Alfred Kelberry: pema, two points on what you said above: 1. "sensing spirit of science" - this is more about "beliefs" than science or exploration :) 2. "develop more of a connection between science and PaB" - was it not your initial goal to apply scientific methods in exploration of pab?

    Pema Pera: While waiting for Alfred's example, let me just clarify: I *do* think that we have started to embark on some very interesting experiments, especially in the first year of PaB, but I agree with Alfred that they haven't reached something comparable to the way science would do so

    Pema Pera: 1) is not about beliefs, but about methodology: the scientific methodology of holding things up, looking at it without prematurely judging -- *that* is what I recognice in PaB the community. Note that philosophers are the opposite: ready to *immediately* attack the previous speaker, saying "I disagree on the next five points" :)
    Pema Pera: so what makes PaB the community different from philosophy circles in SL is exactly that there is much more of a spirit of scientific approach on that core way
    Alfred Kelberry: as for the example, almost any western logic comment is met with spiritual mockery. same also had happened with my "science in pab" inquiry. i, in fact, have more to say on this, but not at liberty to speak out at this moment.
    Pema Pera: as for 2), yes, I think PaB the community has the potential to go deeper into science like experimentation, and if there is enough interest, I'd be happy to make suggestions
    Pema Pera: that is not an example, Alfred, it is a general complaint :-)
    Pema Pera: if you can't give one specific example, I'm not sure how to respond :)
    Pema Pera: also, independently of what has happened, let's try to do something better from now on, no?
    Alfred Kelberry: you put me in a position to call out people in the group. i will not do that.

    Pema Pera: well, if we can't talk about the past, let's talk about the future, what we can improve
    Pema Pera: or better: augment, add
    Pema Pera: I think PaB is fine as it is, but I also think more can be added, more diversity
    Pema Pera: making more people more happy, hopefully you too, Alfred!
    Alfred Kelberry: interesting, how when it suits the need of spirituality, it becomes so very picky about concrete examples :)
    Pema Pera: ????
    Alfred Kelberry: otherwise, prefers to stay vague
    Pema Pera: what are you accusing me of, Afred, specifically?
    Pema Pera: I can't follow you
    Alfred Kelberry: accusing? :)
    Pema Pera: who prefers to stay vague?
    Pema Pera: me?
    Alfred Kelberry: pab in general
    Pema Pera: you've lost me
    Alfred Kelberry: as i mentioned before in my emails, my remarks have to do with pab as a group (me included), not specific individuals
    Pema Pera: Alfred, what is it that you would like to talk about?
    Pema Pera: I thought I was trying to address your interest in science and PaB/spirituality
    Pema Pera: but you keep coming back to PaB behaving in wrong ways
    Pema Pera: I must be missing something . . . .
    Alfred Kelberry: this concern of the ways is what prompted this theme meetings

    Group questions and comments...

    Eliza Madrigal: Perhaps we might open for comments and questions from others and clarify the topic before next week. I have one question which the discussion has raised...
    Eliza Madrigal: when Pema said that we have 'hardly' approached scientific exploration I thought "great, so we HAVE then..." What did that look like?
    Pema Pera: the notion of stopping every fifteen minutes to take stock of our lives
    Pema Pera: that's a typical lab-like approach, and in field work as well


    Pema Pera: also, working with something like "appreciate the presence of appearance" is a specific instruction for a series of experiments you can do, following that instruction, and then different people can compare notes, with themselves at different times and with others -- we have started to do a bit of that, but not in any really systematic way yet -- could be done though.

    Bleu Oleander: how might we state that in the form of a hypothesis? would that be predictive? what would constitute evidence?

    Pema Pera: I personally have found both the 15 min breaks and working with APA extremely helpful and interesting
    Pema Pera: that's a great question Bleu!
    Pema Pera: worth at least a whole hour of a theme session!
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Pema Pera: seriously
    Pema Pera: shall we schedule one?
    Bleu Oleander: agree

    Storm Nordwind: Would more people be willing to try it and gather data if they knew it was going to be input into a specific process, rather than just aired in discussion and perhaps forgotten.?
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, please
    Pema Pera: you and Alfred and me, or whatever combination!
    Bleu Oleander: moi?
    Myna Maven: I would.
    Pema Pera: great question, Storm!

    Pema Pera: or we could start next week with Bleu's question
    Pema Pera: as a very concrete starting point

    Eliza Madrigal makes note
    Pema Pera: would that be okay, Alfred?
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, i like the idea
    Bleu Oleander: additional questions if we are relying on subjective experience would be can we trust our subjective experience and are we starting from the same initial conditions?
    Pema Pera: yes, very much related!
    Eliza Madrigal: the systematic sharing Storm mentions seems a key to me... how to include more of this without quelching the spontaneity the group enjoys
    Pema Pera: the short answer is: we don't know, because the last 400 years science has specifically focused on studying objects (to Bleu)
    Eliza Madrigal: there seems room for 'it all' to me
    Pema Pera: we may need a new form of science to study subjects
    Pema Pera: agree, Eliza
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Bleu Oleander: subjects studying subjects :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Pema Pera: Storm, do you have a suggestion as to how to set up a framework for gathering data?
    Storm Nordwind: As yet no. But it seems an important thing that we've somehow missed.

    Pema Pera: Bleu, subject studying subjects would turn the second subjects into objects . . . .
    Pema Pera: that would still be the old methodology
    Bleu Oleander: and vice versa :)
    Eliza Madrigal: here we see the subjects in play

    Pema Pera: so can science be enlarged to have a subject studying itself, qua subject rather than object?
    Bleu Oleander: the felt experience?
    Pema Pera: perhaps

    Lucinda Lavender: Luci pictures some kind of grid for each person at a pause...and afterwards entering a note which some how everyone accesses
    Pema Pera: interesting, Luci!
    Pema Pera: that would be intersubjective
    Storm Nordwind: I would expect the problem has already been addressed in some social sciences. Though I'm no expert there
    Pema Pera: they often try to emulate natural science
    Pema Pera: or try to stay away from it
    Storm Nordwind: And they're used to dealing with probabilities rather than black and white

    Bleu Oleander: questions of how and whether we even can evaluate our own subjective experience without a confirmation bias

    Storm Nordwind: Corroboration?
    Pema Pera: perhaps we need a two-pronged approach: starting some concrete experiments and at the same time trying to think through deeply what kind of theory might correspond to those experiments, might fit them
    Eliza Madrigal: I liked the word used by the scientist at the higgs announcement... coopetition... it was a little more energetic than cooperation and less antagonistic than competition
    Storm Nordwind: We can surely allow for truth or applicability within context, including current context.
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice Pema, yes
    Pema Pera: without experiments, it quickly becomes vague speculation, but once we have some experiment, we can bootstrap from there on, try to
    Alfred Kelberry: pema, it sounds like the first year of pab a bit. i'd like to see it happen.
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Pema Pera: and yes, coopetition sounds fine :-)

    Myna Maven: The net we cast for measuring our experience is also usually very narrow due the great number of filters we automatically apply to it, consciously and unconsciously, as we search for meaning, and thus, well, clean away a lot of interesting dust.

    Pema Pera: YES !!!
    Bleu Oleander: yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: and also, science is a peer activity, not following a leader
    Pema Pera: so in our case too, I hope that we will all join in

    Pema Pera: I'm happy to make some suggestions, but as Storm and Bleu and Eliza have already done
    Pema Pera: we can all make suggestions
    Pema Pera: and put it all on the table and see what we can do with it
    Storm Nordwind is enthusiastic
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Pema Pera: is once a week enough, to discuss this?
    Bleu Oleander: perhaps defining how we're using some of the tems would be helpful too
    Pema Pera: or do we need to meet more often?


    Pema Pera: oh, yes, Bleu, and how we change the use of the terms as we mature
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd suggest twice per week... enough time to look at one method and also try it
    Pema Pera: I can come in more than once a week if it is on 7 pm SLT, which is my 11 am -- in fact, that would be much better than this time; it's past midnight for me now
    Pema Pera: who would be inconvenienced at 7 pm SLT -- would that be difficult for you, I guess, Alfred?
    Eliza Madrigal: Friday and Saturday have no hosts... I could post those sessions or I'm sure others wouldn't mind your invading theirs
    Zen Arado: it's 3am for me
    Alfred Kelberry: pema, yes, but it's ok
    Myna Maven: What is 7 pm SLT in EST?
    Pema Pera: 10 pm
    Myna Maven: Fine.
    Bleu Oleander: I work at that time on many nights but can come if nothing is scheduled for me in rl
    Pema Pera: in EDT :)
    Eliza Madrigal: so will we also need something like a message board or report board as in time sessions
    Eliza Madrigal: ?
    Myna Maven: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: because not all can make those times of course and will want to give input if involved
    Pema Pera: in the summer EDT, in the winter EST

    Pema Pera: I'm happy to come twice a week for the next four weeks say, if it is 7 pm SLT

    Bleu Oleander: 10pm in the summer Myna
    Pema Pera: if that's okay, which days of the week shall we pick?
    Alfred Kelberry: we have to make sure to accommodate bleu. she's the brilliant mind behind this suggestion :)
    Pema Pera: do you have a preference, Bleu?
    Bleu Oleander: hard to accommodate me as my schedule is random
    Bleu Oleander: so i'll come if I can
    Alfred Kelberry: artsy goddess - so spontaneous :)
    Bleu Oleander: haha
    Alfred Kelberry: i hope you can make it, bleu
    Pema Pera: Eliza, do you have a preference for days of the week?
    Bleu Oleander: i'll do my best
    Eliza Madrigal: Friday is preferable to Saturday for me
    Pema Pera: Ah, I have my very own slot, of course, Monday evening
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, friday is good
    Eliza Madrigal: but I can work with almost any of the dates really... Sunday is hard
    Pema Pera: actually, I prefer not Friday, which is saturday morning for me
    Bleu Oleander: we have 15 salons a month ... each month on different days so hard to have a regular time for me

    A time is settled on...

    Pema Pera: how about Monday evening and Thursday evening?

    Eliza Madrigal: great... Thursday is Paradise's session
    Myna Maven: Fine with me.
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm sure she would like that.. and would be nice to hear from her too
    Pema Pera: okay!
    Pema Pera: so that's also well spread through the week, three days and four days apart
    Eliza Madrigal: I'll send her an IM in world

    Myna Maven: So would we start this coming Thursday rather than today.
    Pema Pera: so shall we continue on Thursday, 7 pm, three and a half days from now?

    Pema Pera: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: great
    Pema Pera: this evening I'm in a train
    Myna Maven: Good.
    Lucinda Lavender: great!
    Pema Pera: (in my Tuesday morning)
    Pema Pera: thank you all!
    Eliza Madrigal: >whew< :::applause:::
    Bleu Oleander: thank you Pema
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks everyone
    Pema Pera: and thank you again, Alfred, for getting this ball rollling !!
    Bleu Oleander: and Boxy
    Xirana Oximoxi: thank you all! :-)
    Storm Nordwind: Hooray for boxy
    Myna Maven: Looking forward to the next meeting. :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: hoooray!!! :))

    Alfred Kelberry: pema, i'd like to thank you for your initiative to start these meetings and also having time and patience to answer my questions :)
    Alfred Kelberry: and all of you for attending
    Pema Pera: yw, Alfred, I like your direct approach, as you know :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) thanks boxy, all
    Myna Maven: Bye everyone, till next time.
    Bleu Oleander: bye all
    Pema Pera: bfn
    Zen Arado: byee everyone
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, till thursday 7 pm?
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye alll!!!


    Back to the beginning of the session:

    Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Storm and Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal: first there was a pavilion then there was no pavilion then there was
    Bruce Mowbray: heh heh.
    Storm Nordwind: Caterpillar sheds his skin to find a butterfly within
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce, Storm :)
    Storm Nordwind: Good morning!
    Eliza Madrigal: am rezzing... everything is like grey marshmallow
    Storm Nordwind: ick
    Storm Nordwind: That cache clearing
    Eliza Madrigal: but at least the pavilion appears now (it was gone this morning Bruce!)
    Eliza Madrigal: I've not seen Alfred all week... does anyone know if he will be here?
    Bruce Mowbray: I've not seen Boxy either, Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal: the theme sessions are intended to continue over weeks, is my understanding
    Storm Nordwind: Last login yesterday.
    Storm Nordwind: He comes for 2 minutes, collects messages, and disappears
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, I think he did mention camping or something a while ago
    Bruce Mowbray: Pema's in Japan, though, right?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, but can make this time by staying up a bit late so will be here
    Storm Nordwind: Currently 11pm there
    Bruce Mowbray: oh good!
    Eliza Madrigal: so we may need 'seconds' for Boxy
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Storm Nordwind: Sounds like a duel!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...hah...
    Storm Nordwind: (or dessert ;)
    Eliza Madrigal laughs


    Eliza Madrigal: Morning, Bleu :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Bleu.
    Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Evening, Pema :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Pema :)
    Bruce Mowbray: God evening, Pema.
    Bruce Mowbray: Good*
    Storm Nordwind: Hi!
    Pema Pera: sorry, rather slow internet connection . . . .
    Pema Pera: now that I'm sitting down, it should speed up a bit :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Myna.
    Bleu Oleander: hi Myna
    Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Luci!
    Bleu Oleander: hiya Luci
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Myna, Lucinda, Zen
    Myna Maven: Hi, Bleu. Hi, Eliza. All.
    Eliza Madrigal: We were joking that we've not yet head from Boxy, so perhaps someone will need to step in as his 'second' today... we'll see :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Bruce Mowbray: Good afternoon, Zen.
    Bleu Oleander: his alter-puppy?
    Eliza Madrigal smiles, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, nope :))
    Eliza Madrigal: yay
    Bleu Oleander: Boxy!
    Pema Pera: Hi Alfred!
    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy :)
    Storm Nordwind: Yay boxy!
    Myna Maven: Hi, Boxy.
    Alfred Kelberry: sorry, a bit late
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Boxy!
    Zen Arado: Hi Lici, Boxy


    Second portion of text moved due to tech issues at the beginning of the session:


    Alfred Kelberry: kire :) good to see you!

    Zen Arado: Hi Kiremimi
    Pema Pera: it seems our internet is almost frozen now, with Kiremimi in here as well . . .
    Kiremimi Tigerpaw: thanks
    Kiremimi Tigerpaw: Hi Zen
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Kiremini.
    Kiremimi Tigerpaw: hi bruce!
    Kiremimi Tigerpaw: it seems, Pema has a serious connection problem.
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Kiremimi (and anyone I missed) :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Xirana!
    Kiremimi Tigerpaw: we both are in a tiny village and connection is not so good.
    Bleu Oleander: hi Xirana :)
    Pema Pera: I did not see my own last few lines . . . the internet connection where we are staying this weekend, Kiremimi and I, is rather slow, and we're now trying to use it simultaneously
    Kiremimi Tigerpaw: I will drop out and see if it helps Pema more room for connections.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xirana, we're getting situated :)
    Pema Pera: ah, I just saw my line from three minutes ago . . . .
    Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone:)
    Kiremimi Tigerpaw: good to see you all, but please excuse me to go out once to find a better connection.
    Xirana Oximoxi: ok:)
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks Kiremimi
    Bleu Oleander: nice to see you Kiremimi
    Zen Arado: Hi Xirana :)

    Files 1

    FileSizeDateAttached by 
     theme session boxy pema_003.png
    No description
    1196.15 kB16:26, 16 Jul 2012elizaActions
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core