2012.07.23 19:00 - Okay, for the next three days: quality and inner/outer -- and let's see what we come up with!

    Table of contents
    No headers

    The guardian for this session was Pema Pera. Eliza posted this theme session - the second of a planned eight - with few comments necessary. 

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Eliza!


    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Myna!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi, Myna :)
    Myna Maven: Hi.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Steve!
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Eos!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stevenaia, Eos, Pema
    Pema Pera: hi everybody!
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Pema!
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eliza, Bruce, Pema, stevenaia, Myna, San
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, San!
    Santoshima Resident: hi everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi, San :)
    Pema Pera: Thanks, Eliza, for offering to post my session today, and the next three weeks
    Pema Pera: much appreciated!
    Eliza Madrigal: yw Pema
    Pema Pera: as you can imagine, I've been a bit busy this week with emails :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: frees your hands for emails, hah
    Pema Pera: I hope I didn't spam y'all too much . . . . . .
    Pema Pera: once I get going . . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: much appreciated, Pema
    Santoshima Resident: nope, it was very interesting and appreciated
    Pema Pera: but then again, Alfred kept stating that I wasn't involved very much anymore, so I decided to make up for it a bit (^_^)
    Santoshima Resident: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hehe, touche
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: squeaky pup
    Pema Pera: gets greased?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray looks around for greased up pup.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Raffi!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffila
    Santoshima Resident: hi Raffi :)
    Pema Pera: hi Raffi!
    Raffila Millgrove whispers greets, sorry to be late.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, druth!
    druth Vlodovic: hey guys
    Eos Amaterasu: hi druth, raffi
    Pema Pera: hi Druth!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth
    Santoshima Resident: hello Druth :)

    Session begins...

    Pema Pera: I'm looking forward to hearing from those who got around to look for that strange notion of "quality" that I mentioned last time -- would anyone like to share some impressions?

    druth Vlodovic: only that I couldn't find it lol
    Pema Pera: where did you look, Druth?
    Bruce Mowbray: for me, there is sometimes an "issue" of vividness as differing from intensity.
    druth Vlodovic: I tried your idea of staying present during dropping
    Bruce Mowbray: The lights might be turned way up (intensity), but the focus not there yet. But with vividness, the focus is there.
    druth Vlodovic: but then my observations were all internal, and outside objects included only as they affected me internally
    Bruce Mowbray: Pema said: "My personal preference is to start with a general suggestion, as I did with looking for quality; then to see what everyone comes up with; then to try to understand each other, to make the sharing really fruitful; and only then to zoom in and make the description more tight and specific."
    Pema Pera: perhaps "quality" straddles the boundary we like to place between internal and external, Druth, would that makes sense?
    Eos Amaterasu: could you say more, druth, about " outside objects included only as they affected me internally"
    Eos Amaterasu: ?
    druth Vlodovic: I haven't found the middle ground yet, objectively objects and situations exist and I see certainaspects of them
    druth Vlodovic: subjectively I am affected by them emotionally and mentally, producing results
    druth Vlodovic: these overlap of course, so I don't see the transition
    Eos Amaterasu: so you were observing them in your own subjectivity?
    druth Vlodovic: remaining present during a "dop" (I got to calling it undropping) is umm, not easy, and making observations in realtime is even more delicate


    Raffila Millgrove: note: my report is ready for when called upon to give it.
    Eos Amaterasu listens
    Myna Maven: (Oops, sorry. Driver crashed.)
    Raffila Millgrove: should i go ahead with it, Pema?
    Pema Pera: fine, Raffi, and no need to ask me :-)
    Pema Pera: we're all in here together
    Raffila Millgrove: (was looking at a rose in her garden for the days of exercise.. so it changed. it was not really any chaneges she was noticing.. as much as the roseness of the rose. it's unique special.. one roseness smell/thickness of the petal.. bugs .. very pleasant personality--happy to blend in with me--become part of each other)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Claire, I'll make you a note card
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Claire!
    Claire Maskelyne: Hello, everyone!
    Pema Pera: hi Claire!
    Santoshima Resident: hi Claire :)
    Claire Maskelyne: What's being discussed today?
    Claire Maskelyne: I'm terribly sorry I'm late.
    druth Vlodovic: does it continue to appear different to you raffila?
    Pema Pera: interesting similarity to what we talked about with Druth, the overlap (or not) between inner and outer
    Eos Amaterasu: qualities and observing them....
    Raffila Millgrove: er no. cause i close the exercise.. as i think we are to bring data.. so i leave the rose ... to wave in wind.
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: he heh
    Eos Amaterasu loves that
    Raffila Millgrove: but while i was doing it.. yes cause i am thinking.. i wonder how rose is doing now.. and goto visit it.
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Pema Pera: (^_^)
    Eos Amaterasu: mind in action :-)
    Raffila Millgrove: i am very glad i pick something that makes me happy too.
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Raffila Millgrove: cuase i love all my roses.
    Pema Pera: yes! quality has that quality of happiness too :)
    Pema Pera: Bruce, you started reporting too, would you like to continue?
    Eos Amaterasu: ah (thinks of intent preceding mind....)

    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm. . . Well, just reporting my data...
    Bruce Mowbray: about intensity and vividness.
    Bruce Mowbray: and often I mistake one for the other.
    Bruce Mowbray: but only discover that later...
    Bruce Mowbray: practice helps the discernment.
    Bruce Mowbray: the focus.
    Bruce Mowbray listens.
    Bruce Mowbray: one more thing....
    Bruce Mowbray: I seem to have a problem with memories and [future] fantasies...
    Bruce Mowbray: getting mixed up with the focus (the vividness)....
    Bruce Mowbray: and those make the intensity (bright lights) more problematic.
    Bruce Mowbray listens again.
    Claire Maskelyne: This is odd... I've been having a similar experience, I think.
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting distinction .. vividness seeming livening as opposed to draining perhaps
    Claire Maskelyne: Is part of the focus of what Bruce is talking about - is it the ability to engage fully with an experience?
    Claire Maskelyne: Do I have that right?
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, I was responsing to Pema's question about quality.
    Claire Maskelyne: I see... Then perhaps I was mistaken. I'm sorry about that.
    Bruce Mowbray: no no!
    Bruce Mowbray: You're right on target!
    Claire Maskelyne: Am I?
    Bruce Mowbray: It is all about engaging the present moment... with quality.

    Pema Pera: if I may propose a little exploration during the next 90-sec break: let's look at the distinction between inner and outer, that we learned early on in life -- both appear to us in our awareness, and on that level there is no distinction; where/how does that distinction come in and how strict is it? Just a light question to sit with for a bit

    Claire Maskelyne: Ah... for me it's not a light question at all. It's been a source of much stress, and curiously, only a source of stress in the last few days.
    Claire Maskelyne: May I explain?
    Pema Pera: fine!
    Claire Maskelyne: All right...
    Claire Maskelyne: I found a meditation instructor recently, and I've begun taking up meditative practice seriously again in the last few weeks.
    Claire Maskelyne: But concurrently to that, now that I'm entering that unguarded mental state all sorts of memories and feelings have arisen - some of which were very frightening.


    Claire Maskelyne: I remembered in the last few days that, when I was really quite young, I came to the realization that I could never verify that the information my senses were giving me was real, and I could never truly 'prove' that I was in 'reality'.
    Pema Pera: when I used the 90 seconds of silence to look at the inner/outer distinction, I noticed how much of the so-called outer I color with my own expectations and judgments . . . and how much of the so-called inner for me is colored by judgments of others who have influenced me . . . . .
    Claire Maskelyne: That would have been bad enough - but a few months after that time, I think, I got lost in the 'Touch Tunnel' at the Liberty Science Center - stuck in enclosed darkness, and (I think) hallucinating. I was only recalled to a sense of my surroundings when a man passing by very roughly grabbed my arm.
    Claire Maskelyne: All that made a very shocking impression on my life ever since... I have felt a deep sense of 'disconnect', and an inability to trust my judgment or perceptions.
    Claire Maskelyne: And that really bothers me now.
    Claire Maskelyne: I'm sorry if all this is too personal...
    Pema Pera: thanks, Claire! Would anyone else like to share their experiences during the 90 sec?
    Eliza Madrigal: these seem just the sorts of things to keep a record of Claire, thanks... the sorts of things included in good notes over time
    Bruce Mowbray: Some things in the "outer" seem to have more duration - last longer - whereas most things in the inner (at least for those 90 secs) flipped around in and out of existence -- very rapidly.
    Eos Amaterasu: I came back to the roseness of the rose, which wasn't my perception or rose, but druth's but somehow was mine as well

    Raffila Millgrove: like to say that as a child. i could walk into people. like walking into their home.. and look about inside. l thought everyone could do this. later i discover no.. better not to do it as they didn't invite me. But i still do it all other.. non person things. so i don't have inner outer.. i blend all the time. except NEver to myself and this relates to Claire. i could do it.. enter myself thru looking into my eyes in a mirror. and i found such strangeness. such heavy deep emotion.. i quit that. it ws terrifying.
    Eos Amaterasu: might be a bit too heavy at first
    Bruce Mowbray: very intense, indeed!
    Santoshima Resident: yes

    druth Vlodovic: I was noticing how the environment, from temperature to light, affects me internally and in turn affects the way I interact with the environment, making it one ecology, rather than separate areas
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Pema Pera: yes, overflowing both ways
    Eliza Madrigal: what came up during the pause for me, was that Xiri painted a RL pic of SL Alfred, which he showed us at the 1pm session... and there was this feeling of boundary crossing RL/SL - simple, easy but also struck as somehow novel and refreshing
    Claire Maskelyne: For me, I feel that it's the opposite of Raffila's experience... I am anxiously searching for an experience that will draw me into a sense of 'wholeness' with the world.
    Eliza Madrigal: when people refer to SL they often say in-world v out-world :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Claire Maskelyne: Interesting.
    druth Vlodovic: violations of trust can cause habits of fear which separate us, I wish I had answers for that
    Claire Maskelyne: Oh, yes. I do, too.
    Pema Pera: no easy answers . . . .

    Santoshima Resident: Peme, I'm interested to understand how you make the distinction in your description of experiece quoted: outer I color with my own expectations and judgments . . . and how much of the so-called inner for me is colored by judgments of others who have influenced me . . . . ."n during the 90 sec break. inner
    Raffila Millgrove: yes trust. you need both consent and trust to do that Star Trek mind meld. thing.
    Pema Pera: but watching, and stopping/dropping often, is one way to slowly get more trust
    Pema Pera: San, more an observation, not so much analysis
    Raffila Millgrove: are you referring to trusting yourself to look inside yourself or.. talking two people?
    Pema Pera: both
    Santoshima Resident: i see, ty
    Bruce Mowbray wonders is "trust" means more confidence in one's "focus."
    Bruce Mowbray: if*
    Pema Pera: trust has to do with relaxing into the circumstances, inner and outer
    Pema Pera: (I think :-)

    Myna Maven: Very true, Druth, and it's not surprising that a course of meditation would bring this up and make it pronounced. Releasing the anxiety of making the effort towards that connection, towards that "wholeness", may be done moment by moment.
    Eos Amaterasu: being able to just sit an be with your self without altering yourself is beginning of trusting
    Raffila Millgrove: well i don't trust myself, cuase i been there ,, done that and i am not going again.... to me that is dangerous.. and maybe i lose myself ..
    Pema Pera: trusting traffic doesn't mean jumping in front of a car, but knowing when and how to cross the street -- something similar for inner experiences perhaps?

    Eos Amaterasu: 90 second lab sessions encourage small simple ways to be with yourself
    Bruce Mowbray: part of the "relaxing" that Pema speks of if, for me, an acceptance . . . whatever rises, also changes, and also ceases. . . and relaxing into that awareness helps the trust.
    Bruce Mowbray: is for me*
    Raffila Millgrove: how do i say this. you have to stand outside and take your temperature.. you dont' want to go inside.. to test it. that's just my experience. i need the boundary between inner/outer self for safety.
    druth Vlodovic: if there are good places to really experiment with trusting yourself, you can find them in SL, there is a safety net (with large holes) in not being real
    Eliza Madrigal: the benefit seems that when we are intentional about this, and about sharing notes, we become more precise
    Eos Amaterasu: trust your own boundaries
    Pema Pera: interesting, Druth!
    Eos Amaterasu: with an open mind
    Bruce Mowbray: Is SL an "outer" or an "inner" experience, then?
    Eos Amaterasu: in-world
    Bruce Mowbray: That's just a rhetorical question -- let's not go there.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: meditation is called "practice" for a reason. Like riding a bicycle, without practice you can't trust yourself not to fall off :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Claire Maskelyne: Maybe it's silly - but where I am now, I see both RL and SL as 'outer' experiences.
    Eos Amaterasu: so they are
    Pema Pera: it's a very good question, Bruce!
    Eliza Madrigal: (bell approaching)
    Eos Amaterasu: just qualia?
    Pema Pera: there is something dreamlike about it -- sure, Eos!
    druth Vlodovic: try taking your temperature from inside raffila, it's an odd experience ::)


    Claire Maskelyne: Taking your temperature from inside?
    druth Vlodovic: my interpretation of changing the subject => object to subject <=> subject examination
    druth Vlodovic: it's disconcerting at first
    Pema Pera: (following Eos' hint, I looked around at my desk, computer, window, outside scene, and felt how awareness was painting all the qualia in/on/as all that presented itself, and in/on/as me as well, as the observer -- thanks, Eos!)
    Raffila Millgrove: i feel druth.. that if i go inside.. i lose myself. the observer. the one watching.. i blend into it.. i cannot get out in a way.... it's overwhelming inside--the level of emotion/intensity inside me. and kinda dark too to be honest.
    Santoshima Resident: understood
    Santoshima Resident: a survival technique
    Eos Amaterasu: no need to push
    Raffila Millgrove: i am not crazy or evil.. but i honestly don't recognize myself.
    Eliza Madrigal: I felt a kind of opening in my chest, a lighter breath, transparency of 'things' ... sort of a different way of communication
    Pema Pera: that's why relaxation is the first step, before anything else, indeed, no pushing

    druth Vlodovic: awareness was painting qualia? I'm not sure I understand, it sounds like your self was producing the objects, or your view of them
    Pema Pera: but my "self" is also given in (my?) awareness
    Raffila Millgrove: ok well we probably talking different things then.. cuase if i go there.. then i lose myself. .i meld and lose the observer and cannot get out and seperate easily.. so.. maybe we talk on different planes about this.
    Pema Pera: to say "I have awareness" suggests I am outside my awareness
    Pema Pera: but only in awareness do I find an I
    Pema Pera: so perhaps awareness has me, rather than me having awareness?
    Eos Amaterasu is dizzy :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Santoshima Resident: someone open a window
    Myna Maven: :)
    Pema Pera: Raffi, "going there" indeed can mean many things
    Pema Pera: like "plunging in" or "sitting at the shore"

    Eos Amaterasu: a possible hypothesis: [19:50] Pema Pera: so perhaps awareness has me, rather than me having awareness?
    druth Vlodovic: in my interpretation of your words raffila I think we are talking about the same thing
    Bruce Mowbray: Appreciation is important -- perhaps vital -- here. . . appreciating the appearance . . . "Going there" with relaxed appreciation.
    Pema Pera nods
    Pema Pera: or "going just a step towards that direction" and then pause
    Bruce Mowbray: ahhh. . . sometimes just baby steps, yes.
    Eliza Madrigal: edginess of 'losing sight of the shore' , but then one can sort of stay at the edge...relax there...
    Pema Pera: even climb a mountain instead, to get more of a view of the sea
    Pema Pera: many options :)
    Santoshima Resident: the metaphors are plenty, but are not the thing being discussed
    Eos Amaterasu: you put your finger on it
    Pema Pera: we have a few minutes left in this session: what shall we do in RL between now and the next meeting, on Thursday morning?
    Eliza Madrigal has decided to buy a notebook and keep better notes
    Pema Pera nods to San, that's why we do these explorations :)
    Santoshima Resident: yes
    Pema Pera: continue with the "quality" exploration?
    Pema Pera: or add/subtract/modify?
    Raffila Millgrove: well i don't know how the scientist among us would evalate this. probably not too.. er.. positively. for me. it was fine.
    Pema Pera: let's not worry about evaluation at this stage :-)
    Raffila Millgrove: ok.. but speaking only as going to next step.
    Eos Amaterasu needs to get a lab coat
    Eliza Madrigal: I like the quality exploration, just feel a desire to be more precise, personally, so sure

    Bruce Mowbray: Now how do we discern quality? -- explore that in the next few days. . . Quality in any experience, inner or outer, SL or RL.
    Pema Pera: in research too, initially Janice Joplin has good advice "feeling good is good enough for me"
    druth Vlodovic: questions arise from the interaction of the self and environment, maybe we don't have enough of one yet
    Raffila Millgrove: what is it we are looking for in this next step Pema?
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting Druth
    Pema Pera: perhaps continue with "quality" with an extra eye out for the inner/outer distinction?
    Raffila Millgrove: could we.. find out the objective?
    Raffila Millgrove: ok. looking for inner-outer in quality.
    Raffila Millgrove: ok.
    Pema Pera: but that's just one option
    Santoshima Resident: seems a good option
    Pema Pera: I don't want to be a leader, let alone a teacher :-)
    Raffila Millgrove: seem fine with me.
    Pema Pera: we can all suggest ideas
    Bruce Mowbray: The objective, for me, is to buy the best prescription for my glasses. . . one that can get a quality focus. Now HOw do I know it is a good prescription?
    Raffila Millgrove: yeah yeah we heard that before. RAffi snickers.. and then looks up innocently.

    Eos Amaterasu: PaBis a kind of telescope to peer through....
    Myna Maven: !
    druth Vlodovic: lol, hedging bets, maybe each person injudicious enough to present an idea can be a leader of that
    Pema Pera: :-)

    Raffila Millgrove: let's just keep it simple. we got one plan.. let's just do it.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes
    Santoshima Resident: yay!
    Raffila Millgrove: or we'll have 320 choices to debate on.

    Pema Pera: okay, for the next three days: quality and inner/outer -- and let's see what we come up with!
    Pema Pera: thanks for joining us here today
    Bruce Mowbray: Sounds good to moi.
    Pema Pera: I'm very much enjoying these conversations
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Pema, everyone - great session
    Pema Pera: inspiring and also I'm learning a lot
    Santoshima Resident: thank you, Pema ~ and everyone
    Raffila Millgrove: ok. ty Pema for facilitating discussion. ty all for sharing/coming.
    Pema Pera: besides, also fun :)
    Claire Maskelyne: Thank you, everyone. :) I wasn't sure how my words would be recieved.
    Pema Pera: and let's all facilitate next time, hehehe
    Raffila Millgrove: oh was great Claire. please return soon.
    Pema Pera: thanks for joining us, Claire, and for speaking up too!
    Pema Pera: great seeing you again


    stevenaia Michinaga: see you thursday, Pema
    Eos Amaterasu: thnx all,good night
    Myna Maven: Thanks all for the discussion, will hope to see you again Thursday.
    Pema Pera: off to lunch in RL, 12 noon in Kobe, Japan :-) c u !
    Pema Pera: bfn
    Eliza Madrigal waves warmly
    Santoshima Resident: g'night ~ good afternoon ~ good morning, see you soon
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Claire
    Claire Maskelyne: Goodbye! Take care of yourself!
    druth Vlodovic: ah, I should head to bed as well
    druth Vlodovic: 'night all

    druth, eliza, pema, bruce_004.png

    Tag page (Edit tags)
    • No tags

    Files 1

    FileSizeDateAttached by 
     druth, eliza, pema, bruce_004.png
    No description
    1570.05 kB03:22, 24 Jul 2012elizaActions
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core