2012.09.30 19:00 - Caravanserai

    Table of contents
    1. 1. Everything is Waiting for You

    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Vector
    Calvino Rabeni: It's been a long time, how have you been?
    Vector Marksman: very well. I have not been in SL in 6 months!
    Vector Marksman: it is like another world
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a kind of world
    Vector Marksman: changes all the time
    Calvino Rabeni: oh, I haven't noticed too many changes
    Calvino Rabeni: but I don't explore too much
    Calvino Rabeni: staying in my usual haunts here
    Vector Marksman: well, I just had to download a new viewer so maybe that is my impression
    Vector Marksman: rather than anything substantive
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: yes I needed to do the same
    Vector Marksman: aha - how is Pa B?
    Calvino Rabeni: It's still active, though in different ways
    Calvino Rabeni: there are some new group members
    Calvino Rabeni: Pema has moved a bit more into the background
    Calvino Rabeni: there are always some new initiatives though
    Calvino Rabeni: a combined SL / RL retreat is coming up
    Vector Marksman: the latter interests me - how SL and RL interact
    Calvino Rabeni: ah yes :)
    Vector Marksman: Where is the retreat
    Calvino Rabeni: I think there are a few challenges or basic things that need to be kept in mind about that
    Calvino Rabeni: the upcoming retreat?
    Vector Marksman: yes, like what
    Calvino Rabeni: It's "place" is a location here in SL, in a retreat location, plus the attendees will be at their own residences, and encourages to do something to make space there for the retreat experience
    Calvino Rabeni: so ... unfortunately perhaps, no physical co-location
    Vector Marksman: very interesting
    Vector Marksman: I have done the same via telephone conferencing
    Vector Marksman: But we only knew each other in RL
    Vector Marksman: I can see the value of this
    Vector Marksman: yes
    Vector Marksman: that is the site
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: The experiments are at least in my opinion, one can't expect an organic unity, but need to look for small things that can be made to work better
    Calvino Rabeni: I guess, a kind of incrementalism
    Calvino Rabeni: but that's not a consensus, just my idea
    Calvino Rabeni: one of the issues is the unity needs to be constructed, rather than assumed, so it seems there's some will involved
    Vector Marksman: Do you mean experiments offerred in PaB
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm thinking about the SL/RL hybrid idea
    Vector Marksman: yes

    Vector Marksman: Good to experiment... that is the spirit I like best about PaB
    Vector Marksman: the little I have been here
    Calvino Rabeni: nods ...
    Calvino Rabeni: also, learning from experiments :)
    Vector Marksman: yes, "there is no success like failure and failur is no success at all" Bob Dylan
    Vector Marksman: just learing
    Vector Marksman: learning
    Calvino Rabeni: by the way, do you recall, the log here gets posted online ... is that ok.. and is a reference to your site okay (wanted?) .. it's up to me as session editor
    Vector Marksman: sure, all is ok with me
    Calvino Rabeni: just learning ... yes, intelligent learning and remembering
    Calvino Rabeni: and I suppose forgetting is part of remembering
    Vector Marksman: that is an interesting subject - unlearning
    Vector Marksman: maybe that is not the same as forgetting and maybe it is
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, that makes sense both ways
    Calvino Rabeni: in the retreat description, there's a statement to the effect that there will be a day of silence
    Vector Marksman: yes, silence is for me a key
    Calvino Rabeni: and that is additionally defined to mean "no email, no web as well as talking"
    Calvino Rabeni: nods about silence, \
    Vector Marksman: how about inner silence... hard to mandate
    Vector Marksman: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, though it's simple, it's hard to communicate about, less mandate
    Calvino Rabeni: (?)
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, what I wondered about that specification "no web, no email" was, in what way it is necessary to state
    Vector Marksman: How can you be in SL if not on the internet
    Calvino Rabeni: hehe I think the idea might be counter-intuitive, but the idea would be to disconnect from the internet during part of the real time of the session
    Vector Marksman: ok - I see
    Calvino Rabeni: it's funny, there are a lot of "online" meditations
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes but not often, it includes going away from the influence of the computer and its technology and associated habits
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that would be good to do more often
    Calvino Rabeni: but more often the connection is kept open
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps without much account for its effects
    Vector Marksman: You are exploring a whole new dimension of meditation this way
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    Vector Marksman: Maybe the future will be even more tied in to computer connection than now
    Calvino Rabeni: I think so ..
    Vector Marksman: I am old enough to be ambivalent

    Calvino Rabeni: Reminds me of a quote .. "if you're not confused, you haven't been paying attention" (or something like that)
    Vector Marksman: very good
    Calvino Rabeni: I think the same can be said for ambivalence
    Calvino Rabeni: and I like to think it's not age-dependent
    Vector Marksman: True - but the developments are rapid and there is an age divide I think
    Vector Marksman: Maybe that is just one of many divides though
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a certain minimum technical competency needed to get into the medium
    Calvino Rabeni: Some phones and cars are now complex enough to be on the wrong side of the divide for parts of the population
    Calvino Rabeni: but when it comes to something like a meditation group
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd hope simplicity would be the order of the day
    Vector Marksman: Yes, but getting into SL is not as simple for most people as getting into a website.
    Calvino Rabeni: Second Life has long been recognized as too complex for mass adaptation ... it never became the way "everyone" used computers
    Calvino Rabeni: yes I agree
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe the "kinect" like motion interfaces and voice recognition will change that
    Calvino Rabeni: so there's no need to memorize complex controls, icons, menus, modes, pointers and all that complexity
    Vector Marksman: yes, the thrust has been to make it simpler and less complex to use all the technologies
    Vector Marksman: that in the past were only possilbe for a select few
    Calvino Rabeni: another design perspective is, given a group that already has competency with a system, how to use it as well as possible for a purpose like a meditation group or retreat
    Calvino Rabeni: or a community meeting
    Vector Marksman: yes, I would like to participate more in this endeavor
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    Vector Marksman: meeting you here by chance does inspire me to try and come more often
    Vector Marksman: to see and learn
    Calvino Rabeni: :) hoping you find the most helpful / useful situations when you do come
    Calvino Rabeni: actually, contributing to the learning
    Vector Marksman: yes, I think the interaction is what makes it worthwhile
    Vector Marksman: otherwise I could be watching TV
    Calvino Rabeni: or reading a book, or sitting by the lake
    Calvino Rabeni: it's interesting

    Calvino Rabeni: people would go to some lengths to design an environment within second life with good impressions and aesthetics
    Calvino Rabeni: to support an activity or experience here
    Calvino Rabeni: for instance the image of a traditional meditation place, with its objects
    Calvino Rabeni: but of course it's embedded in the frame of the technical system
    Calvino Rabeni: and that's embedded in the frame of a person's place of using the technical system ... home or office or whatever
    Calvino Rabeni: and the arrangements don't seem to include those larger frames
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps theres a presumption that they aren't relevant
    Calvino Rabeni: and .. it's too much to expect, it raises the bar
    Calvino Rabeni: when one goes to a RL meditation temple, the monks hopefully have cleaned up the surrounding land and area
    Calvino Rabeni: but in the SL retreat, one doesn't have someone to do the same for one's house :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Paradise :)
    Calvino Rabeni: So it raises the bar, of effort needed
    Calvino Rabeni: as there's no physical commons
    Paradise Tennant: hiy a cal vector
    Vector Marksman: But for the retreat to be more meaningful, cleaning up one's house would be important
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Vector Marksman: I am sorry,,, but I must leave. It was very nice seeing you again. :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: and ones computer surface and technical surround
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite vector
    Calvino Rabeni: Very glad you came by, Vector
    Paradise Tennant: was just out listening to a concert by Beth Orton :))
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w0-W-llAWg
    Paradise Tennant: she was very good :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm missing something, the reason for the cake here
    Paradise Tennant: not sure ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe I haven't been reading my email
    Paradise Tennant: aph put it there
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the link ... I can see it later, but unfortunately I've got a tech problem, if the computer runs the SL viewer as well as the browser, it gets to the heat limit where it crashes .. makes me nervous :)
    Paradise Tennant: no worries .. how are you :))
    Paradise Tennant: had just a fabulous dinner too at a little italian restaurant where the clocks refuse to work... the one above the bar actually ran backwards and then stopped after 3 days )) totallly charming :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm well .. had a strange vertigo but it's passed
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.kalendar.com/pdfs/KAL_DinnerMenu2012-WEB.pdf
    Paradise Tennant: you are dehydrated
    Calvino Rabeni: Ran backwards? wow, that seems exceptional
    Paradise Tennant: I get that sometimes ..there are great llittle pills for it ..
    Paradise Tennant: but essentially you are need to drink a litre of water ..when your inner ears dry out they stop working
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe so .. I'd attributed it to an unexpected combination of things
    Paradise Tennant: feels like your tumbling through space
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd been climbing a ladder leaning on a pear tree, as it was getting dark, and then climbing down, it started twisting precariously
    Calvino Rabeni: then I didn't get light to re-establish the feeling of space around me, so when I went to sit at the computer, looking into SL, I had no sense of ground
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, that was the feeling, like the ground were unstable and turning
    Calvino Rabeni: but luckily it passed after focusing on the SL world space a while

    Paradise Tennant: yes sometimes it is like the world is tv set where there is no vertical button it is just flipping around
    Paradise Tennant: drink a couple of big glasses of water before you go to bed
    Paradise Tennant: they are having a wonderful time in Venice but aph got pickpocketed
    Calvino Rabeni: though there's a kind of leaning forward, SL 's world doesn't create a complete surround
    Calvino Rabeni: I got a nice box of plums and pears
    Paradise Tennant: smiles then it was worth it
    Calvino Rabeni: oh, that's bad .. about the pickpocket .. seems sort of sterootypical
    Calvino Rabeni: hoping the passport wasn't lost
    Calvino Rabeni: Your recipe by the way seems like a good one for lucid dreaming :)
    Paradise Tennant: no just credit cards and about 50 euros so awkward but not terrible
    Paradise Tennant: my recipe ?
    Calvino Rabeni: two glasses of water before bed
    Calvino Rabeni: raises awareness during sleep
    Calvino Rabeni: nods... sometimes I carry a dummy wallet with some fake credit cards and a little currency
    Paradise Tennant: inside zip pockets in a jacket that is not an easy material to cut through works wonders too
    Paradise Tennant: sometimes they will just cut open your pockets
    Paradise Tennant: are you able to lucid dream cal
    Calvino Rabeni: there are bags designed for that, cut-resistant
    Calvino Rabeni: um, well I sometimes dream that way naturally but haven't worked at it like some people do to be able to do it intentionally
    Paradise Tennant: so you can give your self a nice little dream vacation ? "_
    Calvino Rabeni: it would sort of concern me to completely connect those two worlds in such a way
    Calvino Rabeni: hehe .. yes, like for instance, if I were on a real vacation I think I'd not be checking my email every 20 minutes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: dreams as vacation ?
    Calvino Rabeni: nods sort of, they feel that way actually
    Paradise Tennant: well sometimes before I go to bed I give myself the thought of wanting to have a beautiful experience in a beautiful place
    Paradise Tennant: a mini break :)
    Calvino Rabeni: nods .. I do things like that sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: such as, the idea of opening up a question or issue
    Calvino Rabeni: and if it's disturbing, I'll still take that as a success
    Paradise Tennant: what kind of questions ?
    Calvino Rabeni: in a way, the vacation is from ordinary mind habits, I suppose ..
    Calvino Rabeni: and I might hope to go outside the space defined by .. how to say it .. well I don't have a name for it but an equivalent description might be, the "three somethings" of attachment, aversion, indifference
    Paradise Tennant: oneness would be my word
    Calvino Rabeni: I would recognize it as a state in which there were a dynamic interplay between sameness and otherness
    Paradise Tennant: what does that feel like in a dream?
    Calvino Rabeni: making an analogy (not literally) to being "bi" .. hetero + homo .. but with respect to experience not sexuality - see link below for a source of that idea - the possibility of orienting to and embracing both difference and sameness

    Calvino Rabeni: whisper-listens: feel like in a dream?
    Calvino Rabeni: btw that last idea, I have to give mention to someone's blog
    Calvino Rabeni: (trying to be a good social-media citizen here)
    Calvino Rabeni: ... dream
    Calvino Rabeni: (closes eyes)
    Calvino Rabeni: Dreams feel a bit soft, like a world made of blankets, woven by mind
    Calvino Rabeni: like when young, playing with the furniture and sheets, making play houses
    Calvino Rabeni: (that's the dream answer to the question)
    Paradise Tennant: always feel like I have gone away from my body when I dream like there is just this little string to pull me back
    Calvino Rabeni: oh interesting
    Paradise Tennant: sometimes it feels like I am in someone else's body .. seeing things .. doing things but with different hands .. a different body when I look down
    Calvino Rabeni: reminds me a bit of the idea of being a medical empath
    Calvino Rabeni: when I dream it feels like going for a journey within my larger body
    Calvino Rabeni: like every surface is the wall of a cell that has a me side and an other side
    Calvino Rabeni: (web site for earlier idea .. http://joe-perez.com/blog/2012/09/love-poem-no-1-from-the-english-kabbalah/)
    Paradise Tennant: wow
    Paradise Tennant: that was lovely
    Paradise Tennant: the poem
    Calvino Rabeni: It's new to me .. I know the man but don't keep up with the blog
    Calvino Rabeni: sort of .. knowing the path someone is on
    Calvino Rabeni: then getting their travel postcard
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: kind of like being in a group convoy isn't it .. all those we are connected to are moving along
    Calvino Rabeni: It's part of a large narrative arc, expressed poetically but arising from a source that was cognized as a unity
    Calvino Rabeni: group convoy, yes
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: wishing my clock would go backward but it is resolutely winding up to midnight here :))
    Paradise Tennant: I should say thank you and good night :))
    Calvino Rabeni: That brings to mind the David Whyte poem, but with "changes"
    Paradise Tennant: |?
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, glad to see you here, I was going to leave on the bell and do something with the plums
    Calvino Rabeni: oh let me see ...
    Calvino Rabeni:http://www.davidwhyte.com/english_everything.html

    Everything is Waiting for You

    Your great mistake is to act the drama
    as if you were alone. As if life
    were a progressive and cunning crime
    with no witness to the tiny hidden
    transgressions. To feel abandoned is to deny
    the intimacy of your surroundings. Surely,
    even you, at times, have felt the grand array;
    the swelling presence, and the chorus, crowding
    out your solo voice ...

    Calvino Rabeni: a favorite .. occasionally seen here in the pavilion
    Paradise Tennant: loved that
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, we're all not just having a conversation, but travelling in parllel
    Paradise Tennant: have that feelling a lot
    Paradise Tennant: I pay atttention
    Calvino Rabeni: nods yes
    Calvino Rabeni: wonderful :)
    Paradise Tennant: the more I pay attention the more I feel it
    Calvino Rabeni: that makes it grow too
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now, dream well !
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite cal remember the water :)
    Calvino Rabeni: ok .. thanks :)


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