2012.11.04 08:00 - Guardians Session: Courage to Engage

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    Present today were: Bleu, Bruce, Zen, Xirana, Maxine, Riddle, Stevenaia,Eos, Aphrodite, Raffila, and Sunshine. Oh, and Eliza, who feels when rereading this session to post that Play as Being can indeed accomodate so many expressions, if we honestly show up together. That happened to a large extent, today. { ps_ aph spoke on my behalf out of empathy, but her comments do not reflect my views; I had not asked anyone to represent me at this meeting _San}

    Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi again :)
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi :)
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): back with coffee and banana...
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): have done the same minus banana
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): our pups LOVE bananas so major production to bring them out haha
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): aw
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): hiya Bruce
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hiya, Bleu and Eliza!
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Morning, Bruce :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Morning!
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hello Maxine :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Good morning, Maxine!
    Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza, Blue, Bruce!
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Maxine
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
    Maxine Walden: very nice to see you all. sorry for my 'awayness'
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Good morning, Aph!
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): lovely to see you Maxine - happy you are here
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Good day, Zen!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Good morning everyone
    Maxine Walden: me too:)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: so great to see everyone
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Aph, Zen, Sunshine :)
    Sunshine (szavanna): hi all °͜°
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Aph, Maxine, Bruce, Bleu
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hiya, Sun!
    Sunshine (szavanna): Lizzy °͜°
    Sunshine (szavanna): hi Bruce
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Zen, Aph :)
    Zen (zen.arado): Eliza, Sunji
    Maxine Walden: hi, Zen, sorry did not see you
    Sunshine (szavanna): hi Maxine & Aph & Bleuji
    Aphrodite Macbain: Nothing like an extra hour of sleep :-D
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): hiya Sunji :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, szavanna
    Sunshine (szavanna): :)
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) that would have been nice - my body seemed to feel that since it was sleeping late it shouldn't get to bed on time
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Stevie
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hello, Xir!
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Xiri, Stevenaia
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Good morning, Steve!
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Xiri :)
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello everyone:)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Steve
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): we don't change in Arizona :)
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): constant Bleu...
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): so no extra sleep haha
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Maxine
    Aphrodite Macbain: interesting sttement Bleu
    Maxine Walden: oh, no, Bleu? Arizona always goes its own way, it seems :)
    Sunshine (szavanna): hi Xiri °͜°
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes, we are different in many ways :)
    Maxine Walden: :))
    stevenaia Michinaga: greeting everyone, quite the week with hurricane both in and out of SL, of sorts :)
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hi sza:)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray) admires Aph's hat.
    Maxine Walden: yes, steve.
    Aphrodite Macbain: are you OK now Stevenaia?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Aph admires yours
    Aphrodite Macbain: yoho hoooo
    Sunshine (szavanna): :)
    Zen (zen.arado): Mellowdee is having an art opening today at 1pm slt if anyone is interested in coming
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): LM?
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ty Zen
    Aphrodite Macbain: sure Zen
    Sunshine (szavanna): ah I did see something
    Zen (zen.arado): can give notecard
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): great
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Perhaps time to begin the session, though I have to say I'm torn between jumping into news updates like WG and deciding topics, vs. suggesting we might want to talk about the emotional components of recent group exchanges
    Sunshine (szavanna): yes pls Zenji
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): the WG will take up technical matters and that seems fine but for me it all raises questions about what the group is
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): new WG ... first mtg November 12 at 6pm
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): new WG: steve, Eliza, San and me
    stevenaia Michinaga: ty blue, new time, same location
    stevenaia Michinaga: Bleu
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): agenda is on wiki
    Aphrodite Macbain: I would check with San
    Aphrodite Macbain: who is the chair now?
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): haven't decided roles yet
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): those things will be decided in the meeting Aph
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): will do that at first mtg
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): we will also decide on a new regular mtg day of month and time
    stevenaia Michinaga: anyone is welcome to observe (silently or other wise)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hi, Eos!
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Eos, Riddle :)
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hi, Riddle!
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Eos, Riddle
    Sunshine (szavanna): hi Eos and Riddle
    Aphrodite Macbain: smiles at eos
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello Rid, Eos:)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi one and all!
    Riddle Sideways: Hi All
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Riddle and Eos :)
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): great to see you all
    Riddle Sideways: wow, poof and return

    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Looking forward to the SL retreat this coming weekend
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): thanks to Sun's help there is a lovely new tea house there :)

    new new retreat house_002.png
    (latest revision)
    Eos Amaterasu: umm, yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: can you remind us of the details
    Zen (zen.arado): yes..lovely place
    Aphrodite Macbain: yayy
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Raffi
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Raffi, nice to see you today
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Raffi
    Aphrodite Macbain: waves at Raffi
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello Raffi:)
    Maxine Walden: hi Raffi
    Raffila Millgrove waves and whispers "sorry to be late"
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well there are at least 8 if not 9 participating over 3 days time
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): lovely
    Aphrodite Macbain: some may be a wee bit late...
    Riddle Sideways: looks like Riddle can attend. Not traveling next weekend
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes.. there is not a big agenda, but I hope that those participating will give the attentiveness deserved... for their own benefit and others
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Great, Riddle!
    Maxine Walden: wonderful, Riddle
    Aphrodite Macbain looks forward to retreating again with Riddle
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): this feels like a timely retreat - chance to settle and reflect
    Aphrodite Macbain: much needed. this season seems to be a good time for going inward and reflecting
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Maxine Walden: Much to reflect about
    Eos Amaterasu: play with being together in SL, being each alone in RL, both in retreat, interaction
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): as for today's meeting, just to re-post for those who have arrived...
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Perhaps time to begin the session, though I have to say I'm torn between jumping into news updates like deciding topics, vs. suggesting we might want to talk about the emotional components of recent group exchanges
    Zen (zen.arado): alone with others
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods. the latter topic is an important one Eliza but could take up the whole hour
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that's okay, imo
    Maxine Walden: We may have been 'retreating' from the emotional issues at hand, Eliza, with our mention of the upcoming retreat
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal) nods
    Eos Amaterasu may not have read all the recent logs
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): delicate balance isn't there...
    Aphrodite Macbain: read Pema's if you can Eos
    Raffila Millgrove thinks she read them and is wondering what this reference .. is to?
    Eos Amaterasu: find the retreat in the emotion, ?
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Perhaps if anyone hasn't read emails this morning they may want to see Pema's
    Maxine Walden: hmm, yes, balance indeed
    Eos Amaterasu: oh, have not read emails....
    Raffila Millgrove: i don't have any mail from Pema?
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): could someone summarize the issues for those not familiar?
    Raffila Millgrove: sigh.
    Raffila Millgrove: i guess yahoo isn't forwarding my group messages again.
    stevenaia Michinaga: after reading it, I thought... tell us how you really feel
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): does everyone follow the PaB google group emails?
    Raffila Millgrove: it's google?
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Oh :( I can reset you in the email group Raffi... maybe that will help
    Sunshine (szavanna): yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: PABGooglegroups
    Raffila Millgrove: i read every word. i have no idea why i got no mail.
    Raffila Millgrove: i realize i didn't get any pab mail fora few days now.
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): there have been a flurry of exchanges recently
    Zen (zen.arado): could paste it here
    Aphrodite Macbain: he only sent this one
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I can paste Pema's email but there is a lot of context missing...
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Zen
    Raffila Millgrove: can i get it at the website?
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes
    Raffila Millgrove: if i go to google groups?
    Raffila Millgrove: what's the link.. to our group?
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes it is
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): other comments as well as Pema's
    Aphrodite Macbain: there are two issues here
    Zen (zen.arado): Pema's email is a standalone
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): playasbeing@googlegroups.com - I usually access by groups then choosing that one among many
    Raffila Millgrove: ok ty.
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well we know now how Pema feels about it
    Eos Amaterasu: there's probably several levels of emotional undercurrents there, some that surfaced
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal) listens
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes larger context might be important too
    Aphrodite Macbain: some that are having negative repercussions
    Eos Amaterasu: in essence, someone put Pema's head on a buddha figure in the pavilion?
    Eos Amaterasu: (sorry, have not read all the emails)
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes but much more than that Eos
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): everyone should go look at the piece before discussing it
    Eos Amaterasu: where is it?
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): dome
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I've seen enough of it... but yes good idea
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): top floor of the dome
    Eos Amaterasu: okay, thnx
    Raffila Millgrove: i cannot acces google .. gosh i am so sorry.
    Aphrodite Macbain: some people may not see all the dscussion because it has also been sent just to the wg
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): not right to discuss a "work of art" without seeing it I think
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I'll paste Pema's email here
    Raffila Millgrove: i just cannot get into it. i can't remember my name or password there.
    stevenaia Michinaga: you click on the doors and sit inside of the "art"
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): (Eliza posts Pema's email)
    [added: I chose to edit it out here because I didn't get permission to quote Pema's email as is usual the protocol, and he wasn't present]
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so there is the matter of 'what is art' and also 'what is playasbeing' and further 'what is ridicule of a *person*'
    Riddle Sideways: before reading Pema's email, I had thought Stev's was the best
    Aphrodite Macbain: and what is appropriate
    Eos Amaterasu: plus there's undercurrent of boxy tilting at PaB windmills
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): indeed
    Eos Amaterasu: plus undercurrent of is Pema an authority figure
    Aphrodite Macbain: and people getting poked
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): my reaction to Alfred's piece wasn't substantially different that what he has been saying for years at PaB in conversations with Pema
    Eos Amaterasu: tensions surfacing
    Eos Amaterasu: maybe tensions visualized
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): my reaction has been, personally sadness - as I expressed
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): though in a general sense I can see value as 'art statement'
    Maxine Walden: yes, visualized tensions can be very piercing, penetrating
    Aphrodite Macbain: It was San who raied both issues I think: criteria for submitting to Art as Being and what is approriate
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): agree Maxine
    Aphrodite Macbain: she now feels ignored and misunderstood
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I've seen two lines of discussion...one related to if it was right to participate with a group of 'alts'...and the second one related to the meaning/intention of the work itself
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): she has not been ignored at all Aph
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): San and Boxy's exchange was complicated by their personal arguments in the group
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): which people find it hard to speak to
    Aphrodite Macbain: her apology was ignored Bleu
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and the technical issues are being held by WG which seems appropriate
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): I'm not sure everyone saw it or if so, maybe decided not to respond
    Aphrodite Macbain: she says she now feels like a pariah
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): she and I have had numerous email exchanges
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): and the WG is taking it up as an agenda item at the first mtg
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): she offered to take on two sessions per week, though, and will be part the retreat... so it is complex
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): as for all of us perhaps
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): we can only talk about what we here feel
    Aphrodite Macbain: It would have been nice if someone other than myself acknowledged her apology
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): that's everyone's choice Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: of course
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I have been clarifying the whole issue for myself and careful about commenting
    Raffila Millgrove: of i am so sorry. i just cannot.. find this pema letter. i finally got into the website.
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): many of my emails go unacknowledged too
    Zen (zen.arado): the problem is you can seem to be taking sides
    Raffila Millgrove: i don't understand what has been happening.
    Raffila Millgrove holds her head.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Her apology was hard to write
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): raffi... I posted it here...
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): did you see?
    Raffila Millgrove: no i was at the website trying to read the mails.
    Raffila Millgrove: sorry.
    Eos Amaterasu: it's here in the chat, Raffi
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): all apologies are hard to write in some sense ... mine was also
    (Bruce re-posts Pema's email)
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that matters a lot Aph - and over time things come up and are spoken to... for a while there was a lot of confusion which was hard to address
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Guest, I'm sorry but this is a private session
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): thank you
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): (will IM with him privately)
    Aphrodite Macbain: tx Eliza
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): several issues going on ... so confusing to follow in email threads
    stevenaia Michinaga: (try it with phone being your only interenet connection for the week)
    Maxine Walden:
    Part of the pain may be that injured individuals may feel that their pains/injuries when they go deep have not been fully appreciated; as if that pain has been treated by indifference. May not be others' perceptions, however. Proper attention to such pains may be very complex to assess
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): 2 issues: should Alfred's piece be included in the Art of Being project for tech reasons and second issue, should we pass judgement on content of it?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I see two only: what is considered ignoring the criteria for an art as being artwork and what is appropriate
    Raffila Millgrove: did boxy do this buddh-pema statue? and how does San fit into this?
    Eos Amaterasu: Ie, Alfred's entry was invalide cause....? used alts?
    Raffila Millgrove: alts?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I am not sure if "thechnical" reasons is the right way of putting it. We asked for a collaborative piece this time but his piece was done by one person
    stevenaia Michinaga: "appropriateness" is a hugh issue to undertake
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): the issue of criteria the WG will take up ... content is open discussion of what we all consider appropriate for PaB
    Raffila Millgrove: oh i see. he concocted a group of his own "alts" got it.
    Eos Amaterasu: that hits to the essence of this discussiion
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Raffi
    Raffila Millgrove: and put up this statue?
    Raffila Millgrove: where does San fit into this.
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): for some that is the key issue... San put a lot of work and effort and care into pieces for the show...
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): San objected to the inclusion of the piece
    Raffila Millgrove: ah. so it made it into the exhibit.
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): after the event, yes....
    Raffila Millgrove: i actually went and visited this exhibit.. and i didn't actually notice this thing.
    Aphrodite Macbain: she was offended by the placement of the piece - blocking the view of the others pieces
    Eos Amaterasu: Seems Alf gamed the system
    Aphrodite Macbain: It was then moved to another place Raffi
    Eos Amaterasu: fractal of the whole issue
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I apologized in the group that before I saw the piece I said "yes sure" to his placing it...
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but not just me
    Raffila Millgrove: ah. maybe i missed it then.. i went about.. 4 days ago i guess.
    stevenaia Michinaga: initially it was placement (blocking view of other art) and timing (After the exhibit was publicly presented)
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): he moved the piece when asked to
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): the spirit of the things is that we give each other benefit of the doubt, generallly...
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): try to be inclusive
    stevenaia Michinaga: then it seemed to become personal
    Aphrodite Macbain: The issue there is how far can we stretch the criteria for acceptance?
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well I feel it is ridicule - I'd dislike it if it were anyone here
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Raffila Millgrove: jeez louise this sounds like jr high school. this is embarassing silliness.. all around. including Pema's over reaction.
    Eos Amaterasu: step back and call a spade a spade..... rather than stepping back to make ourselves feel safer
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I think there is underlying weariness
    Raffila Millgrove: comparing it to taking a dump in someone's house. good grief. this is just awful.. i am embarassed to be part of this.
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): not addressed in recent months
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): the criteria or stipulations for the projects are not meant to exclude guardians' works, they're meant to constrain to encourage creativity
    stevenaia Michinaga: pema's was just the last word raffi, (this morning)
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, long time issues brewing,
    Aphrodite Macbain: He was obviously very offended Raffi - he was publicly made fun of
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I always felt that Boxy's piece was about Boxy -- and never that it was about Pema . . . (Pema obviously felt otherwise.)
    Eos Amaterasu: drive by pot shot
    Raffila Millgrove: well it's over reactive. and the whole things a silly prank that should be set aside. Welli gotta run along. This is a waste of time to sit thru this. i cannot belive people will Ph'd and strong education.. would go to this level. honest to god . this is embarassing.
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): Boxy has said that it was not about Pema
    Aphrodite Macbain: I always thought we were a gentle lot; this piece goes beyond gentle
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): there are many posts Raffi...
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hope we are able to get your email going
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so you can see that there is complexity of reaction
    Aphrodite Macbain: It makes fun of Pema himself
    Eos Amaterasu: it was about Pemas's head
    Raffila Millgrove: yes. that's even sillier. to work everyone up like this. over an "art" piece.
    stevenaia Michinaga: 30, 40 comments over the week perhaps
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): all pieces can have different readings...
    Raffila Millgrove: geez louise.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Pema's head was a symbol of Pema
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I imagine after a week without email in the midst of chaos and seeing people struggling it must have felt strange to come to pab friends and see that...
    Aphrodite Macbain: and everything he stands for
    Riddle Sideways: As Stevenia wrote:
    Riddle Sideways: here is what went through my mind as I read through boxy and Alfred's most interesting text.
    Funny for those who have a sense of humor
    Insulting to those who do not
    Hurtful to those who cannot laugh at themselves
    Provocative to those who live for provocation
    Reflective to those who see all sides 
    Demeaning to those who take things to seriously 
    Playful to the child mind who considers their words lightly
    I think that covers what went through my mind as I read Through the text. Mostly the first and the last.
    Raffila Millgrove: do you guys not see this is.. silliness? i am amazed everyone takes this with such seriousness. this is jr high school. this is ridiculous.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I find that one can have a very good sense of humour and still find it insulting
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): everyone reacts differently
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): brings there own frame of reference
    Aphrodite Macbain: Dont dismiss this too quickly as silliness Raffila- there are underlying issues that are serious
    Raffila Millgrove: i can't believe we have Play in the title of this group.. to get so overworked up .. that 30 posts and this kind of intensity would ensue.
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): Steve's words explains is perctly....each one will see it differently
    Raffila Millgrove: it is silly.
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): as art piece, valid, many have said, but I hope that we can really stay for a moment, get some space around our reactions and responses and what might be underneath those
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, whew!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Funny for those who have a sense of humor
    Insulting to those who do not
    Hurtful to those who cannot laugh at themselves
    Provocative to those who live for provocation
    Raffila Millgrove: ok well take it easy pabsters.. evidentally this excitement.. you deem worthy of .. pursuing and taking everyone very seriuosly..
    Raffila Millgrove: catch you later.
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bye Raffi :)
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): we all own our reactions and need to look at those angles also
    Sunshine (szavanna): take care Raffi
    Aphrodite Macbain: Implies those who see a problem are those who have no sense of humour and cannot laugh at themselves
    Zen (zen.arado): bye Raffi
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye bye Raffi
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I do deem the conversation worthy - there are perhaps conversations we haven't been having generally
    Aphrodite Macbain: thank you Eliza
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): valid question to ask "what is art" also valid "does this art offend me?"
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): is this a free speech issue?
    Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps we aren't the best judge if we are all so different
    stevenaia Michinaga: what offends some gives others great insight
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): on the surface, at one level it is a free speech issue
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): are there limits to what we can say at PaB?
    Eos Amaterasu: Can we separate this from the issue of whether it belonged in the Play as Lab exhibit?
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): are we judging others?
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): thanks Eos
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): also valid to ask oneself: "How did I make myself so offendable?"
    Aphrodite Macbain: The piece is still there...and we have all had our say
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): that is the issue Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: It seems clearly it did not follow the inclusion criteria for the exhibit
    Aphrodite Macbain: or why is Boxy so persistent in is persecution of Pema?

    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes that is one issue and can be set aside for the WG
    Sunshine (szavanna): I think it would be important for both of them to be here - Boxy and Pema - to get better understanding ...
    Eos Amaterasu: but that might hagve been difficult to express
    Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Sun
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I think we can discuss our own feelings
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): me too....that would be the best if the were here
    Eos Amaterasu: it's funny that the two issues are really the same
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): perhaps Boxy and Pema could have a session ... like they have had before
    Eos Amaterasu: that's the problem, Bleu
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): have you seen those sessions?...
    Sunshine (szavanna): yes Liz its good to talk about it too
    Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps we can have a theme session on this subject: what should be censored?
    Eos Amaterasu: boxy never really "shows up" for such sessions
    stevenaia Michinaga: Luci and I sat in Boxy's art for a while last night conversing, we were quite comfortable
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): exactly - even when there
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I don't like censorship
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): nor anyone here Xiri
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): Boxy has shown up in the email discussions
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I think guarding one person's voice is important for everyone
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): I would argue that his piece is a visual of his email stance
    Eos Amaterasu: true
    Aphrodite Macbain: I find it "clever" but cruel
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes... boxy's show....
    Eos Amaterasu: and his not working with others on his exhibit is a fractal of his not working with others in actually engaging with PasB issues
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): he feels PaB is not scientific and he views Pema as a kind of guru ... at least that's my take on the emails
    Eos Amaterasu: boxy prefers to provoke, but not to engage
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): sure, agree that's his feeling
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think many would agree, Eos
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): he provokes because he wants the discussion
    Eos Amaterasu: but then does he participate in the discussion?
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I differ in that sense
    Aphrodite Macbain: He goes his own way. He does not seem to want to collaborate which was the MAIN intention of the shows
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): he does participate in the email discussions
    stevenaia Michinaga: and he has been quite successful generating discussion
    Eos Amaterasu: heat
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I think participation makes room for respecting other
    Aphrodite Macbain: that he has - perhaps there are other ways of doing that
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): agree Eliza
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Eliza
    Aphrodite Macbain: respecting others is the key
    Zen (zen.arado): if you keep provoking someone they eventually bite back
    Eos Amaterasu: perhaps a formal sepuku in the village square is appropriate?
    Aphrodite Macbain: respecting the criteria for submission, respecting Pabbers
    Zen (zen.arado): is my experience
    Aphrodite Macbain: laughs at Eos
    Sunshine (szavanna): sepuku?
    Eos Amaterasu: we can do such things here in SL :-)
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): sepuku?
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): saddened by the level of discourse at times... and have questioned why I am here over the last few days - I love you all, love the community - but gosh is it really okay - not on a legal level but hm friendship level?
    Eos Amaterasu: formal suicie
    Sunshine (szavanna): ty ;o)
    Aphrodite Macbain: suicide in a particularly nasty fashion
    Eos Amaterasu: puppy bites hand
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): friendship level ... different levels in PaB
    Aphrodite Macbain: who is the real puppy?
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes and we each are here with different sensibilities
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): would never censor but have own expressions too
    Eos Amaterasu: not censor yourself, either
    Aphrodite Macbain: I also felt sub groups forming within PaB -fighting each other. I hope this dissipates
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal) nods
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): so question is do we censor art in our projects?
    Zen (zen.arado): that's the problem
    Zen (zen.arado): having to take a side
    Eos Amaterasu: that's not the real question, Bleu, or is it?
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): its a question
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think the WG should best address both these issues. Perhaps inviting Pema and Boxy to speak.
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): no censorship - but we can talk about things openly
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): what is the "real" question?
    Zen (zen.arado): the art is just a manifestation to me

    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I will no take a side...I've always liked Pab because I feel it's open to all sensibilitites
    Eos Amaterasu: censorship seems a follow-up on being uncomfortable with something
    stevenaia Michinaga: Let me suggest that the WG may want to consider more then one meeting this month to address issues at hand
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): I think the conversation is great and can be constructive ... we can all learn from it
    Sunshine (szavanna): taking sides make no sense hmm
    Zen (zen.arado): exactly
    Maxine Walden:
    it seems to me that whenever respect is bypassed there is a pull toward polarization, taking sides, 'offence'. Maybe that has occurred to some extent here...in PaB re these 'discussions'; We may be learning that we one criteria to protect is 'respect'
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): exactly
    Aphrodite Macbain: Fundamentally, I believe a work on display here should not make fun of people. Ad hominems are hurtful and useless
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes... me too Xiri.. so what is openness in this... it becomes personally hurtful and actually part of the group description is that we aren't here to engage in personal attacks that there is a spirit of the group
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): criteria for Art of Being, technically and content-wise
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Eos
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I see the art matter as a side issue but perhaps that is my personal lens
    Aphrodite Macbain: can we leave this to the WG?
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): all differences can be 'talked' and clarified if there is interest in it
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): if someone is offended by a work of art or conversation at the Pavillion we should take that seriously
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray) remembers John Wayne movies: "This town aint big 'nuf fer the two of us, cowpoke." (PaB's town is MUCH bigger than that.)
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): I think the whole group can voice their opinions and feelings not just the WG
    Aphrodite Macbain: also we need to look at criteria for acceptance
    Maxine Walden: maybe so, bleu. they, the offended, feel respect for them has been bypassed
    Eos Amaterasu: I think the offense is at deception
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes Maxine
    Maxine Walden: say more, eos?
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods at Maxine
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods at Eos
    Aphrodite Macbain: a pretense
    Maxine Walden: ah
    Aphrodite Macbain: pretending to be innocent of no unkind intent
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): is Pema the only one offended or are we offended as group?
    Eos Amaterasu: something like not really willing to engage, so taking a potshot instead (weird language)...
    Aphrodite Macbain: I am offended by his arrogance
    Eos Amaterasu: which probably comes from fear
    Aphrodite Macbain: as are a few others
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I can't speak for the group but I'm weary of this in general... the whole dynamic of just constant criticism
    Maxine Walden: yes, I think I see; agree, it takes courage to engage
    Eos Amaterasu: Pema has been very inviting of boxy to engage
    Eos Amaterasu: which boxy has constantly escaped from doing
    Aphrodite Macbain: he has bent over backwards to answer his questions
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): so perhaps we need to clarify and insist on a level of respect ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Bleu
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): do we think pema is impervious ?
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): maybe some time to give some perspective will help to see all more clearly and quietly
    Aphrodite Macbain: obviously not according to his last email!
    stevenaia Michinaga: Boxy has often show is immaturity through his arrogance
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I would hate to see any friend be bullied
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): even by another friend
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Sunshine (szavanna): yes ;(
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and if that is too emotional, I'm sorry... eliza uncensored
    Eos Amaterasu: hmm, interesting
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray) also nods.
    Aphrodite Macbain: sounds quite rational eliza
    Maxine Walden: Takiing a stand against 'freedom' when it becomes bullying
    Aphrodite Macbain: rational and compassionate
    Eos Amaterasu: (how to be true to our emotional, while caring and respecting and not being afraid)
    Aphrodite Macbain feels we are getting somewhere
    Sunshine (szavanna): :)
    Zen (zen.arado): I have respect and empathy with Pema
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I am fine with the piece as art - it is there... but it is a chance to talk about the underlying dynamic and how far that goes
    Maxine Walden:
    this is a very interesting conversation, beacuse I think we are focussing on the courage to confront aggression which may hide behind 'freedom of expression'
    Aphrodite Macbain: I am uncomfortable with it because it is very hurtful to Pema
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): these are real subjects for our weekly discussions and might encourage a "working through" the feelings and emotions
    Eos Amaterasu: which means we need to confront that in ourselves too
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes
    Maxine Walden: and when cruelty is also hidden or called satire
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Maxine
    Aphrodite Macbain: pretense
    Maxine Walden: yes
    Zen (zen.arado): venom wrapped in humour
    Maxine Walden: yes
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): who judges what is cruelty and what is satire?
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Eos Amaterasu: you have to trust your own heart
    Maxine Walden: maybe to witness how piercing the satire may be;
    Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose if someone is hurt
    Eos Amaterasu: I feel sorry for boxy, and for Pema
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes Aph
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): so we each do ... within many different contexts
    Sunshine (szavanna): yes if someone is hurt ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: and Pema is obviously hurt
    Sunshine (szavanna): yes
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): probably boxy was not aware of it
    Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm
    Maxine Walden: I have to go, but deeply appreciate our staying with this conversation, even when invited to consider it silly.
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): would the piece be changed if he hadn't used Pema's image?
    Eos Amaterasu: doubt it, xirana
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): maybe that is part of the larger pattern - the not aware thing seems a choice
    Maxine Walden: (staying for a bit longer)
    Aphrodite Macbain: It would have been a completely different piece Bleu
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): thanks for being here Maxine
    Aphrodite Macbain: I appreciate your thoughtfulness Maxine
    stevenaia Michinaga: I felt the quote the piece generated when clicking on pema were the sharpest
    Sunshine (szavanna): yes it would be totally different
    stevenaia Michinaga: by Maxine
    Aphrodite Macbain: If it were some abstract buddha head then it would be fine for me
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes it would have been... also, well for me, and I know this is what is critiqued by boxy, but the group as inclusive means we hold many views in respect...
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I'm going to have to leave, also -- or I'll be late for Quaker Meeting. THANKS, Eliza, for handling this discussion so wonderfully.
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): did everyone see the text that the piece generates?
    Aphrodite Macbain: but this is "ad hominem"
    Maxine Walden: glad to be a part of this conversation, as we all deal with internal cruelty, which can remain hidden
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): thank you Bruce, have a good meeting
    Sunshine (szavanna): take care Brucey °͜°
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): bye Bruce
    Eos Amaterasu: (I haven't bleu)
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Keep us in the silence :)
    Zen (zen.arado): bye Bruce
    Bruce (bruce.mowbray): TY.
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye bye Bruce
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): we all should see and experience the piece before we pass any kind of judgement good or bad
    Zen (zen.arado): yes..I didn't look at it yet
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): important to do that
    Maxine Walden: me neither
    Sunshine (szavanna): i have seen it
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I did
    Zen (zen.arado): have to go
    Zen (zen.arado): byee
    Riddle Sideways: ok, will go read it
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): I really can't believe we're having this discussion when most haven't seen it
    Riddle Sideways: byee
    Eos Amaterasu: ciao, bellissimi
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. I have sat with it for a while and Bruce HAS SENT OUT AN EMAIL WITH ALL THE TEXT THAT IS GENERATED BY CLICKING ON pEMA'S HEAD
    Sunshine (szavanna): take care Zenji
    Aphrodite Macbain: sorry
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): in my view...if it hurts someone of the group it shoul be taken off
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): thank you Xiri
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): or changed
    Aphrodite Macbain: thank you Xiri
    Maxine Walden: thanks everyone
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that was partly why I held stronger comments, because I thought "wow I must be very different in thinking this will hurt him"
    Riddle Sideways: thanks all
    Sunshine (szavanna): i must go - hope this prob will settle soon
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and wanted to see ... maybe I was wrong.... but no
    Aphrodite Macbain: thank you for your openmindedness Eliza
    Sunshine (szavanna): ommm shantiiii shantiii °͜°
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) Sun
    Aphrodite Macbain: hugs Sun
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): thank you
    Sunshine (szavanna): hugs °͜°
    Bleu (bleu.oleander): bye all
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye bye all:)
    Aphrodite Macbain: bye by walk in peace
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bye everyone
    stevenaia Michinaga: off to rake the leaves, bye
    Eliza (eliza.madrigal) waves
    stevenaia Michinaga: we will be talking :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: sounds nice hope there are many colours

    Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
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