2012.11.18 07:00 - Dishonesty

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.


    Bleu Oleander: hi Cat :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: hi :)
    Bleu Oleander: how are u?
    Catrinamonblue Resident: good and you?
    Bleu Oleander: great thx
    Bleu Oleander: just listened to a very interesting talk
    Bleu Oleander: http://bloggingheads.tv/videos/12751...tv+%28video%29
    Catrinamonblue Resident: looking at it
    Bleu Oleander: about dishonesty

    Bleu Oleander: psychology of cheating and lying
    Catrinamonblue Resident: it's 39 min long I will listen to it later. Can you summarize?
    Bleu Oleander: Dan Ariely
    Bleu Oleander: right ... for later
    Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: hi

    Bleu Oleander: was just talking about Dan Ariely's book
    Bleu Oleander: on Dishonesty
    Bleu Oleander: very interesting interview
    Eliza Madrigal: okay :) will listen
    Bleu Oleander: long ... for later

    Bleu Oleander: he talks about 3 tips for societies to do:
    Bleu Oleander: 1. reminding about morality at point of temptation
    Bleu Oleander: 2. creating good habits
    Bleu Oleander: 3. some kind of day of atonement

    Bleu Oleander: i.e. New Year's Day
    Bleu Oleander: or other

    Eliza Madrigal: what does he say about #3?

    Bleu Oleander: he feels its good to acknowledge our mistakes

    Bleu Oleander: and move on with a "clean slate" so to speak
    Bleu Oleander: hi Xs
    Xs Andree: ao off
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Adams :) Lovely dress!
    Eliza Madrigal: And Hi Xs ^.^
    Xs Andree: Good aftermorneve
    Bleu Oleander: hi Adams
    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Jubilee
    Catrinamonblue Resident: hello :)
    Bleu Oleander: we're talking about dishonesty and Dan Ariely's book
    Bleu Oleander: for later
    Adams Rubble: thank you bleu
    Bleu Oleander: another example for #3
    Bleu Oleander: renewing vows
    Bleu Oleander: to strengthen relationships
    Eliza Madrigal: one could see the pauses here that way, or meditation times in general - 'dropping' - clean slate/atonement/jubilee (new beginning)
    Bleu Oleander: yes, exactly
    Eliza Madrigal: matters what heart or intention one brings to it of course...
    Bleu Oleander: anyway, lots of interesting ideas in the interview
    Eliza Madrigal: :) ty
    Bleu Oleander: yw!
    Bleu Oleander: what do you all think about honesty and cheating?
    Bleu Oleander: he said cheating seems ok if everyone is doing it
    Bleu Oleander: so social in that sense
    Bleu Oleander: how we rationalize it
    Adams Rubble: are you talking about cheating in sexual relationships?
    Adams Rubble: or larger scope?
    Bleu Oleander: how sometimes dishonesty is good for social relationships
    Bleu Oleander: any social relationships
    Catrinamonblue Resident: cheating in sexual relationships only causes hurt all round
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting... so he is drawing importance to cultural context
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Xs Andree: back, sorry, settling in with coffees
    Bleu Oleander: so lying to your partner and telling them they look wonderful even if they don't can be a good thing
    Adams Rubble: Sometimes what we think is true is an opinion and it maay be useful to keep that to ourself
    Eliza Madrigal nods.... well what is the purpose of saying "you look awful today"... if underneath it is concern it may be important to be honest
    Bleu Oleander: so dishonesty in sl .... good thing? bad thing?

    Adams Rubble: :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone:-)
    Bleu Oleander: do we consider it dishonest if we misrepresent our rl self in sl? to what extent is that OK?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xiri :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Xiri :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: the truth will set you free....
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Adams Rubble: Hi Xirana
    Eliza Madrigal: I think the SL context is unique, and 'more unique' for each individual - that could be said of RL too yet the intention isn't built in necessarily
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Adams:)
    Bleu Oleander: i'll make you a nc Xiri
    Xirana Oximoxi: ok, thanks:)
    Eliza Madrigal: we enter into expectations with one another through relationship, but I don't expect that when I meet a red headed avatar, they are red headed in RL
    Xirana Oximoxi: I listen:)
    Eliza Madrigal: so it isn't dishonest
    Adams Rubble: or blond :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Adams Rubble: hopefully we would try not to hurt people
    Eliza Madrigal: in RL cultural context we may not expect blondes are blondes either.... ;-)
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Bleu Oleander: no meant more important details
    Eliza Madrigal: some feel they've been lied to if they find out something 'new' about a person that seems a contradiction
    Eliza Madrigal: people are so individual
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bleu Oleander: is lying about gender OK?
    Xs Andree: It is difficult to show ones entire being to another at once.
    Eliza Madrigal: that kind of sense of lying seems to be in the eye of the beholder...
    Bleu Oleander: are some things OK in sl but not in rl?
    Xs Andree: I think it is petty to regard a new discovery about a friend as a betrayal, simply because it didn't align with what you considered you knew about them. Especially when people project upon each other what they DESIRE to see upon them.
    Eliza Madrigal: a person may be sharing a real sense of themself ... more honest than honest
    Catrinamonblue Resident: is sl meant to be a safe place to try on new identities? To explore other sides of our personalities?
    Adams Rubble: SL is more eperimental
    Eliza Madrigal nods Xs
    Adams Rubble: but with experiementation we need to be sensitive to possibly hurting someone
    Bleu Oleander: yes Cat ... up to a point? how far can or should we take that?
    Eliza Madrigal: is fiction lying? I consider a work great fiction if it opens up something deeply truthful or genuine
    Xirana Oximoxi: I think Xs has said the right thing....i"It is difficult to show ones entire being to another at once." ... so the best is to go slolwy in both worlds to know another person, if you feel you have some interest in doing so
    Xs Andree: Fuck people's feelings. Fuck their opinions too.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Xs Andree: Especally mine.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I am who I am?
    Eliza Madrigal: feelings are pretty important... they tint the way we hear and see
    Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
    Bleu Oleander: is there enough information given in sl to justify to a similar degree, the feeling we have?
    Bleu Oleander: or is it easier to jump to conclusions?
    Eliza Madrigal: when you hear people talk about influential or charismatic figures, they often say "they made me feel I was the only one in the room in a sea of people"
    Xs Andree: Tyranny was once celebrated, and we wonder..."how could anyone celebrate the tyrant"
    Xs Andree: But the Tyrant is the Charismatic leader, one who rules by invisible chains, of fear, terror, love, adoration, respect...
    Xs Andree: he seduces the will to reason away from the pupulace, and then has complete dominion over them, by the cult of his personality
    Bleu Oleander: more about control?
    Bleu Oleander: manipulation of peoples feelings?
    Xs Andree: well...tyrants can be good leaders or bad
    Xs Andree nods
    Xs Andree: The tabula rasa, the ability to be the projection of the desires of the people, to appear as what each wishes the leader to appear, the sense that your leader is on your side, no matter the evidence otherwise.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bleu, the question of justification is huge - we may feel justified to something on all kinds of basis ... histories, past behavior, big smile...
    Xs Andree: I think if you have to justify something, you shouldn't do it.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: even if the outcome is good?
    Eliza Madrigal: not sure we can function without assumptions.... would have to stop the world
    Xs Andree: only from personal experience though, everything I"ve had to justify that I"ve done, I"ve wound up regretting later, and the justifications were never good enough to cleanse that remorse for the outcimes.
    Bleu Oleander: is justification a bad thing always?
    Xs Andree: for me I think it is.
    Eliza Madrigal: that's what trust is... trust that there is some cushioning to absorb misguidedness and mistakes

    Eliza Madrigal: thus benefit of continual atonement
    Bleu Oleander: can justification merely mean a giving of reasons for actions?
    Eliza Madrigal: it is kind of silly to think one could ever be so careful, even if they determined not to experiment, as to not make mistakes
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Xirana Oximoxi: I would run very far away of someone that thinks that does not mistakes
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Bleu Oleander: yes!
    Bleu Oleander: Mistakes were made but not by me ... another good book
    Xirana Oximoxi: the perfect one:)
    Xirana Oximoxi: 'perfect'
    Eliza Madrigal: when I look back on things I regret, it is a very small focus - when I back up I can almost always find some intention or circumstance that sheds new light - which doesn't mean one doesn't feel sorry still
    Adams Rubble: Please excuse me. I must go get my other avatar ready for this afternoon :)
    Adams Rubble: bye everyone :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: :))
    Catrinamonblue Resident: bye
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Adams
    Eliza Madrigal: bye Adams, wish I could make today
    Bleu Oleander: bye Adams ntsy
    Xs Andree: I think, that if another person can possibly entertain that no one around them makes mistakes either...
    Xs Andree: it would not bother me if they didn't feel that they did.
    Xs Andree: It would be a complete lack of judgement...to consider that no one makes mistakes, that intent and action may not be "cause and effect"
    Xs Andree: that things happen because they happen, beyond intent, beyond good and evil, even.
    Eliza Madrigal: nods, so that again is about the cultural context , in a way - maybe an experimental field or zone in which mistakes are not held against, or sticky (not that I've experienced that before but...)
    Bleu Oleander: some contexts might encourage a culture of mistakes
    Bleu Oleander: as in just try different things ... don't worry about making mistatkes
    Bleu Oleander: perhaps in many ways sl is like that
    Xs Andree: Well, i don't ascribe to any single religion, but I was raised Christian
    Xs Andree: it always struck me as...backward, that the central tenet of Christianity was that all sin and offense had been pardoned and forgiven at the cross
    Xs Andree: ...and yet still at the center of it all, are Christians mostly concerned about the sin of the world.

    Xs Andree: and getting other people to "stop" offenses that had already been paid for.
    Xirana Oximoxi: wb Eliza:)
    Bleu Oleander: wb Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ty Xiri :) will have to read the log to fill in gaps
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I was raised catholic and like the idea of confession to admit to ones mistakes and make atonement for hurt caused
    Bleu Oleander: that's an example of what we were talking about earlier Cat
    Bleu Oleander: what Dan Ariely suggests as a tip for cultures
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I know but do find it more of a comfort than to think no one makes mistakes
    Bleu Oleander: to build in to a culture atonement type experiences
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I like that phrasing
    Bleu Oleander: might have to read his book :)
    Bleu Oleander: have heard him speak a number of times
    Eliza Madrigal: dignity seems important in this regard - high dignity to sincerely apologize
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Xirana Oximoxi: which book, Bleu?
    Bleu Oleander: http://web.mit.edu/ariely/www/MIT/
    Eliza Madrigal: I wasn't raised catholic but always wished that I was for the sake of confession which seemed a great idea :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: sorry If you were talking about it before... :-)
    Xirana Oximoxi: thank you!! :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: lots of bits and pieces I'd take from many religious paradigms... in Judaism same... day to apologize for known and unknown offenses
    Xirana Oximoxi: I absolutly refuse this idea of a god forgiving my sins :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) listens
    Xs Andree: I can't refuse or believe in anything.
    Xs Andree: I'm a nihilist, to be a nihilist is to believe in nothing, and to reject that even believing in nothing is truth
    Xirana Oximoxi: not a lot to listen Liz:))... I learn from what I do and try to improve...but I don't beleive in any kind of God:)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I don't believe in god forgiving sins either but the act of confession gives us time to reflect on our actions and the consequences thereof
    Xs Andree: To reject truth exists, even if that truth is "No truth exists"...that must be discarded as well
    Eliza Madrigal: ah :) yes... that makes sense Xiri...
    Eliza Madrigal: one can appreciate confession without a god, and tradition also/ritual.. suppose many do
    Eliza Madrigal: my vocabulary is too fluid - the second I might say I don't believe or do believe, a million qualifiers come up so... I have to remain a bundle of contradictions
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I sometimes think we all are just contradictions on a theme
    Bleu Oleander: what ever ones' version, some kind of admitting wrongs/mistakes and starting over was what was suggested
    Eliza Madrigal: need to found a bundle of contradictions church
    Bleu Oleander: could be religious, could be secular
    Eliza Madrigal: :P
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... along the lines of "School of Life" Bleu, maybe
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Bleu Oleander: cultures could benefit from having some systems in place for this
    Xirana Oximoxi: I must go now! take care all and see you soon!! :-).. and thanks for all interesting links:)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm just now waking up with this topic but if one thinks about it, confession is a huge part of life - people come to the internet to talk about things they couldn't otherwise, or to therapists, or to best friends....
    Eliza Madrigal: it is everywhere
    Eliza Madrigal: ((Xiri))))
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
    Bleu Oleander: ok bye Xiri :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Xirana
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye:)
    Bleu Oleander: thanks you all
    Bleu Oleander: take care
    Catrinamonblue Resident: bye
    Eliza Madrigal: me too.... bye everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: thank you Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: bye bye
    Catrinamonblue Resident: are you off to XS?
    Catrinamonblue Resident: bye

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