2012.11.18 13:00 - Making the Drop

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    [12:53] stevenaia Michinaga: hello Catrina
    [12:54] Catrinamonblue Resident: hi :)
    [12:54] Catrinamonblue Resident: lovely dress
    [12:54] stevenaia Michinaga: smiles, thank you
    [12:55] stevenaia Michinaga: it lightens up my day
    [12:55] stevenaia Michinaga: I can only stay a few minutes but Wol should be coming shortly
    [12:55] Catrinamonblue Resident: ok :)
    [12:55] stevenaia Michinaga: you been sitting here quietly for quite a while
    [12:56] stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    [12:56] stevenaia Michinaga: this place is nice for that

    [12:56] Catrinamonblue Resident: yes it's nice here, a counterpoint to my life right now
    [12:56] stevenaia Michinaga: glad you returned, it has that affect, keeps you coming back
    [12:56] Catrinamonblue Resident: yes :)
    [12:57] stevenaia Michinaga: how did you find this place?
    [12:57] Catrinamonblue Resident: through Druth who is my husband in RL
    [12:58] stevenaia Michinaga: awww, smiles, I know her well
    [12:58] stevenaia Michinaga: greetings Wol
    [12:58] Catrinamonblue Resident: hello Wol
    [12:58] Wol Euler: hello stevie, hello catrina
    [12:58] Wol Euler: have you been here before?
    [12:59] Catrinamonblue Resident: I have been here yes :)
    [12:59] Wol Euler: okay, so you know about the group and the recorder
    [12:59] Wol Euler: then I won't give you a new notecard :)
    [12:59] Catrinamonblue Resident: yep :)
    [12:59] Wol Euler: good :)

    [12:59] stevenaia Michinaga: She can edit the log if you have specific requests for omissions
    [13:00] Wol Euler: oh, you're from the roadside philophers
    [13:00] stevenaia Michinaga: nice to see you again, bye Wol
    [13:00] Wol Euler: bye stevie, take care
    [13:00] stevenaia Michinaga: I have a meal and a movie to attend to w/ friends
    [13:00] Catrinamonblue Resident: bye
    [13:00] Wol Euler: nice
    [13:00] Catrinamonblue Resident: have fun
    [13:01] Catrinamonblue Resident: Druth introduced me to SL, in RL he's my husband. So I got into a few of the groups he's in
    [13:01] Wol Euler: oh wow
    [13:01] Wol Euler: hello :)
    [13:02] Catrinamonblue Resident: I enjoy being here as the conversations are varied and interesting
    [13:02] Wol Euler nods.
    [13:02] Wol Euler: and unusually gentle :)
    [13:02] Catrinamonblue Resident: yes and that too which is nice
    [13:02] Wol Euler: compared to the combative style of many ohter places

    [13:03] Catrinamonblue Resident: i'm not a confrontational type person but really love hearing different idea's on life and living
    [13:03] Wol Euler nods.
    [13:04] Wol Euler: it's been very broadening, enriching, to be here
    [13:04] Wol Euler: it feels like a privilege was extended to me :)
    [13:05] Wol Euler: the retreats as well, they were wonderful
    [13:05] Catrinamonblue Resident: yes I do feel that way too, I feel special when the few things I say are taken seriously and considered.
    [13:05] Catrinamonblue Resident: haven't been to a retreat, still new to all this :)
    [13:06] Wol Euler smiles.
    [13:06] Wol Euler: it's a great experience
    [13:07] Wol Euler: but not a one-sided one, I had a minor depression after my first retreat
    [13:07] Catrinamonblue Resident: oh
    [13:07] Wol Euler: returning to "reality" after that immersion in attention and love and support
    [13:07] Wol Euler: was very harsh and cold
    [13:07] Wol Euler: apparently it's a common response, but I didn't know to expect it
    [13:07] Wol Euler: and it certainly didn
    [13:07] Wol Euler: didn't stop me going again :)
    [13:08] Wol Euler smiles.
    [13:08] Catrinamonblue Resident: there is always something to learn
    [13:08] Wol Euler nods.
    [13:08] Wol Euler: especially about oneself :)
    [13:08] Wol Euler: aspects of self that are hidden from us
    [13:09] Catrinamonblue Resident: sigh... that's hard to do... especially when life is in chaos
    [13:09] Wol Euler: we talked at the last RL retreat about "letting yourself be seen", that is an aspect of that
    [13:09] Wol Euler: indeed, yes

    [13:09] Catrinamonblue Resident: who do you let yourself be seen?
    [13:09] Wol Euler: how, or by whom?
    [13:09] Wol Euler: hello eos
    [13:09] Wol Euler: and hello bruce
    [13:10] Catrinamonblue Resident: how :) sorry for the spelling
    [13:10] Eos Amaterasu: Hi Wol, Catrina, Bruce
    [13:10] Catrinamonblue Resident: hello
    [13:10] Bruce Mowbray: Hello!
    [13:11] Wol Euler: not concealing, not dissembling
    [13:11] Wol Euler: we talk about dropping, here in the group
    [13:11] Wol Euler: dropping identifications, dropping labels, dropping preconceptions

    [13:11] Catrinamonblue Resident: yes I heard can you explain that?
    [13:11] Bruce Mowbray listens carefully to catch the drift....
    [13:11] Wol Euler: hello cal
    [13:12] Eos Amaterasu: HI Cal
    [13:12] Bruce Mowbray: Ahoy, Calvino!
    [13:12] Calvino Rabeni: Hi wol, eos, bruce, san, catrina :)
    [13:12] Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

    [13:12] Wol Euler: well, the idea of Play as Being is to try to experience the world directly
    [13:12] Wol Euler: which sounds simple, but if you consider what you do on a daily and minute-by-minute basis, it is actually very unusual
    [13:13] Bruce Mowbray: (if possible, even)

    [13:13] Wol Euler: when you last made coffee, for example: did you consider the grains, smell them, look at their texture - or did you throw them into the pot?
    [13:13] Wol Euler: saying "that is coffee"
    [13:13] Wol Euler: and "this is water"
    [13:13] Wol Euler: (I'm not a philosopher, I like simple practical examples :)

    [13:13] Bruce Mowbray: Yes, those categories which language always and inevitably pre-supposes.
    [13:14] Bruce Mowbray: Ahoy, Qt!
    [13:14] Calvino Rabeni: looked at the grains carefully
    [13:14] Wol Euler: hello qt
    [13:14] Calvino Rabeni: but its a good example
    [13:14] Qt Core: hi all
    [13:14] Eos Amaterasu: HI Qt and Zon
    [13:14] Bruce Mowbray: But Wol's point is well-taken: Did you experience the present moment as you made the coffee....?
    [13:14] Wol Euler: yes, I can recommend Calvino as a contact person if you want to get into this deeply, he is very knowledgeable and can explain well and simply
    [13:14] Wol Euler: and eos too
    [13:14] Bruce Mowbray: The sensory input of that moment?
    [13:14] Catrinamonblue Resident: ummm no but I see now how I can
    [13:16] Bruce Mowbray: Ahoy, Zon and Kori.
    [13:16] Wol Euler: hello korel
    [13:16] Korel Laloix: Osiyo
    [13:16] Qt Core: hi Zon, Korel
    [13:16] Eos Amaterasu: Hi Korel

    [13:16] Wol Euler: so much of life runs on a kind of autopilot, automatic action without thought or consideration
    [13:17] Wol Euler: even something that should be as sensuous as eating,
    [13:17] Wol Euler: is often just done in a rush, from habit
    [13:17] Wol Euler: and if you asked me an hour later what I had, I'd not be sure
    [13:17] Wol Euler: the opposite of that is "dropping" :)
    [13:17] Wol Euler: let the haste fall away, and taste the food

    [13:17] Bruce Mowbray thinks that might be most of his 'problem' with short-term memory. . .
    [13:17] Korel Laloix: Eating is usually a chore though.. at least for me.
    [13:18] Catrinamonblue Resident: eating is hard for me too
    [13:18] Bruce Mowbray: Get really hungry, then, Kori. . . and see how much of a celebration of life eating can be.
    [13:18] Wol Euler listens.

    [13:18] Korel Laloix: Habbts make things easy though, in some ways.
    [13:18] Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
    [13:18] Wol Euler nods.
    [13:19] Korel Laloix: I grew up hungry, so I know what you mean.
    [13:19] Bruce Mowbray: Habits are behavioral generalizations.
    [13:19] Bruce Mowbray: and "dropping" is a method for breaking those generalizations up.
    [13:19] Korel Laloix: Some are fuctional, some are not though.
    [13:19] Wol Euler nods.

    [13:19] Bruce Mowbray: A lot of habits are downright suicidal, actually.
    [13:20] Bruce Mowbray wonders if Zon is hung up on something out there in the pasture.
    [13:20] Korel Laloix: I think some are just short term functional, but long term destructive maybe.
    [13:20] Wol Euler: mmhmm
    [13:20] Wol Euler: the boost that turns into a cage
    [13:21] Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh! Good, Kori -- short and long-term dysfunctionality. . . Well worth thinking about.
    [13:21] Bruce Mowbray some political movements as functional in the short term and dysfunctional in the long term.

    [13:21] Korel Laloix: I like most of my habbits.
    [13:21] Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    [13:22] Bruce Mowbray: So, we're talking about the benefits of "dropping"?>
    [13:22] Korel Laloix: Some of my habbits don't like me though.
    [13:23] Korel Laloix: Still not really sure what dropping actually is.
    [13:23] Wol Euler: Catrina asked about dropping, I tried to explain
    [13:23] Catrinamonblue Resident: same here confused
    [13:23] Wol Euler: perhaps we can all try :)
    [13:23] Bruce Mowbray: You've come to the right session, Kori!
    [13:23] Wol Euler looks around invitingly
    [13:24] Bruce Mowbray listens. . .
    [13:24] Bruce Mowbray: because he has already said too much. . .
    [13:24] Wol Euler chuckles and picks up the talking stick again.
    [13:24] Bruce Mowbray: even though he has his own notion of what dropping entails.
    [13:24] Wol Euler: please tell us :)

    [13:24] Bruce Mowbray: I can feel what needs to be dropped./ . .
    [13:24] Bruce Mowbray: in my body.
    [13:25] Bruce Mowbray: There are places that are brittle, perhaps tense... obvious places....
    [13:25] Bruce Mowbray: and I am aware that those are places I CLING to stuff that I really do not need.
    [13:25] Bruce Mowbray: So, dropping is a method of relaxing those away... letting them fall.
    [13:25] Bruce Mowbray: Relaxing.
    [13:26] Bruce Mowbray listens...
    [13:26] Calvino Rabeni: Nice explanation, Bruce
    [13:27] Wol Euler smiles.
    [13:27] Bruce Mowbray: ty.

    [13:27] Catrinamonblue Resident: the stuff you let go is it emotional, mental, stress the thoughts that obsess the mind?
    [13:27] Bruce Mowbray: All of that (for me).
    [13:27] Calvino Rabeni: do you find that you can go from body to "thing" ... say you don't know what "thing to be dropped" is on its own terms, but "body" has a form of it ?
    [13:28] Bruce Mowbray: Yes, body manifestations are merely symptomatic.
    [13:28] Bruce Mowbray: Going from symptom to "thing" -- in a sensual sense. . .
    [13:28] Bruce Mowbray: is part of the drop, actually.
    [13:28] Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    [13:28] Bruce Mowbray: But it is first important to recognize the symptom, in my case....

    [13:29] Calvino Rabeni: Like having a "hunch" - funny word actually, it means both a physical posture and also an intuition that doesn't have a name yet

    [13:29] Bruce Mowbray: A "drop" approaches at 30 minutes after the hour . . . I will become aware of my body and how it is signaling me. . .
    [13:30] Bruce Mowbray: even though I have no name for it....
    [13:31] Bruce Mowbray: Is this beginning to make more sense to you, Catrina?
    [13:32] Catrinamonblue Resident: a little
    [13:32] Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm in therapy right no for high anxiety
    [13:32] Wol Euler listens.
    [13:32] Catrinamonblue Resident: and this sounds a bit like what my therpist has been talking about
    [13:32] Bruce Mowbray: There used to be a saying, "Let [something] be [something]."
    [13:32] Catrinamonblue Resident: she talked about usung my mind to lead my body
    [13:32] Bruce Mowbray: Dropping is like letting reality be reality. . . or whatever is there be whatevere is there....
    [13:33] Bruce Mowbray listens....
    [13:33] Catrinamonblue Resident: to reduce the physical discomforts
    [13:33] Bruce Mowbray listens even more carefully.

    [13:33] Catrinamonblue Resident: it's hard when the anxiety builds up in the body
    [13:33] Catrinamonblue Resident: she talked about it being a screw
    [13:34] Catrinamonblue Resident: when it builds up it turns one way
    [13:34] Catrinamonblue Resident: and I have to learn to turn the other way
    [13:34] Catrinamonblue Resident: and bring it down
    [13:34] Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm only just starting in on this one
    [13:34] Wol Euler nods.

    [13:34] Bruce Mowbray ponders the analogy of tightening and untightening the "screws>
    [13:35] Wol Euler: part of what we call "dropping" is just awareness, as Bruce said, and that is very much like what you have described
    [13:35] Bruce Mowbray: I like it....
    [13:35] Wol Euler: learning to feel when it happens, and letting go of the screwdriver, to let it unwind
    [13:35] Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
    [13:36] Bruce Mowbray: The mind makes a choice to allow the body to do this.
    [13:36] Calvino Rabeni: and vice versa possibly
    [13:36] Bruce Mowbray: The tension (the tightened screw) is in both -- Oooops. I agree with Cal on that one.

    [13:38] Calvino Rabeni: Awareness is an integrator and a go-between, a bit like a conference room into which mind, body, emotions, or other intelligent "parts" come together for collaboration
    [13:38] Wol Euler smiles.
    [13:39] Calvino Rabeni: In my opinion, ideally, none of them is "the boss"
    [13:39] Bruce Mowbray: Kori has told us before that her major vehicle for untightening the screws is to run . . . (and just today she had a marathon!)
    [13:39] Calvino Rabeni: like mind over body, the mind gets to be the boss
    [13:39] Korel Laloix: It does work for me.
    [13:39] Calvino Rabeni smiles at the memory of runnings marvelous effects
    [13:39] Bruce Mowbray: Mind does seem to hold the trump cards . . . for a while. . . .
    [13:39] Korel Laloix: My prayer and meditation time.
    [13:40] Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Kori!
    [13:40] Bruce Mowbray: Great!
    [13:40] Wol Euler: exactly

    [13:40] Calvino Rabeni: a long distance runner learns how to have everything relax and work together, otherwise it's not possible to go the distance
    [13:41] Korel Laloix: It can be very much a mind game on the longer runs.
    [13:41] Calvino Rabeni: I appreciate it, as one of those situations that strongly requires togetherness
    [13:41] Calvino Rabeni nods
    [13:42] Calvino Rabeni: I think people like extreme sports or other similar situations, because they require the cultivation of the art of the whole

    [13:44] Bruce Mowbray: Ahoy, Zen!
    [13:44] Wol Euler: hello zen
    [13:44] Zen Arado: Hi all
    [13:44] Eos Amaterasu: Hi Zen
    [13:44] Catrinamonblue Resident: hi Zen
    [13:44] Bruce Mowbray: We're talking about 'dropping,' Zen. . .
    [13:44] Bruce Mowbray: and sharing our individual means of doing that.

    [13:44] Wol Euler: another way to look at dropping (and seeing/being seen) is to consider your self-identities as something you have, not necessarily what you *are*
    [13:46] Zen Arado: can't have much left to drop ;)
    [13:46] Wol Euler: the eternal topic :)
    [13:46] Wol Euler: Pema explained it like this: "spend some time asking yourself about the difference between what you are and what you have. We say “I am a woman” or “I am a Frenchman” or “I am a carpenter” but in all these cases we can also say “my gender is female” or “my citizenship is French” or “my profession is carpentry.” In other words, we can consider all these attributes as something we have, without identifying it with something that we are."
    [13:47] Catrinamonblue Resident: oh I like that
    [13:47] Calvino Rabeni: Those are "I" in an idea-like formulation - my idea of who I am
    [13:47] Wol Euler: we don't have to deny any of those identites, that's not the purpose; but we can loosen their hold on our imaginations
    [13:48] Zen Arado: yes

    [13:48] Wol Euler: if I loosen my hold on being an American, I can ask myself whether there is room for improvement in my country's foreign policy
    [13:48] Calvino Rabeni: Besides the idea, there are other ways to look at it?

    [13:49] Wol Euler: if I loosen my hold on being a high-powered day trader at a bank, I might discover that I hate the long hours and dread going in to work every morning :)
    [13:49] Bruce Mowbray ponders "I am not this job." "I am not this gender." I am not this age."

    [13:49] Calvino Rabeni: For instance - what does it feel like, or, what is it "like" to have a shift of identity during the "drop" process? How long does it take? What happens on a feeling level
    [13:50] Bruce Mowbray: There it is, Cal!
    [13:50] Wol Euler nods.
    [13:50] Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful and concise.

    [13:50] Calvino Rabeni: What ideas happened during that process, that seemed to be part of it, or detracted?
    [13:51] Calvino Rabeni: Or are they (ideas) mostly not so relevant to having "drop" happen?
    [13:52] Bruce Mowbray ponders the analogy of reptiles sheading their skins. . .
    [13:52] Wol Euler listens.
    [13:52] Bruce Mowbray: shedding?*

    [13:52] Calvino Rabeni: There seem to be drops that happen on time scales from very short to very long
    [13:53] Calvino Rabeni: a moment, a half/hour, a four hour run, a long walkabout
    [13:53] Bruce Mowbray: a lifetime.
    [13:53] Calvino Rabeni: (multiple lifetimes if you are into that)
    [13:53] Calvino Rabeni: Yes

    [13:53] Wol Euler smiles.

    [13:54] Zen Arado: it helps me to imagine I am an hour baby with no concepts to drop or juggle with...just pure experiencing...it hasn't learned to separate everything into neat labels and concepts
    [13:54] Zen Arado: hour old
    [13:54] Bruce Mowbray: fresh, uncorrupted, new, (vulnerable?) . . .
    [13:55] Bruce Mowbray: clear.
    [13:55] Zen Arado: life unseparated
    [13:55] Zen Arado: undivided
    [13:55] Wol Euler nods.
    [13:55] Calvino Rabeni: flexible... the baby's time sense is so expanded compared to an adults
    [13:55] Bruce Mowbray: There's that wholeness theme that Cal suggested earlier.

    [13:55] Calvino Rabeni: moods change in an instant
    [13:55] Wol Euler: yes, the emotional flow of children is amazing
    [13:56] Zen Arado: an hour old
    [13:56] Wol Euler: each emotion fully expressed in the moment, with no holding back at all
    [13:56] Wol Euler: and then a second later, it's gone and they smile again
    [13:56] Wol Euler: with no residue
    [13:56] Bruce Mowbray: :)

    [13:56] Calvino Rabeni: an hour old baby has had nine months of life already, plus whatever kinds of knowledge can pass through the birth process
    [13:56] Catrinamonblue Resident: wish I could leave emotions behind like that
    [13:57] Zen Arado: yes but it hasn't absorbed concepts
    [13:57] Wol Euler: indeed, catrina, so do we all :)
    [13:57] Korel Laloix: Not to that degree..
    [13:57] Zen Arado: it doesn't know what anything is in our terms
    [13:57] Bruce Mowbray: Your mind/body remembers what it was like.
    [13:57] Korel Laloix: Just wish I could manage them better.
    [13:57] Wol Euler: ((three minute warning, for those going to Bertram's meditation ))
    [13:57] Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, Wol.
    [13:57] Zen Arado: it doesn't know waht awareness is for instance

    [13:58] Calvino Rabeni: A baby and its mother are much tuned into each other on nonverbal levels that are structured .. similar to concepts, maybe a form of the same thing
    [13:59] Calvino Rabeni: likes, dislikes, trusts, connections and disconnections, expectations, surprises
    [13:59] Zen Arado: but it doesn't know that
    [13:59] Wol Euler: ((I have to slip away at the bell, another appointment. Thank you all, and it was a pleasure to meet you Catrina))
    [13:59] Zen Arado: hard to get rid of concepts isn't it?
    [13:59] Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps this is where "abstract art" came from. . . seeing the unencumbered and uncategorized essence of experience.
    [13:59] Catrinamonblue Resident: it has been wonderful thank you all
    [14:00] Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Cat!
    [14:00] Zen Arado: slips away
    [14:00] Wol Euler: please come again, 1am 7am 1pm 7pm nearly every day :) see the poster to your left, behind Korel
    [14:00] Eos Amaterasu: (slips away)
    [14:00] Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care
    [14:00] Korel Laloix: Take care all.
    [14:00] Qt Core: bye Cal, Zen
    [14:00] Catrinamonblue Resident: night all

    [14:00] Bruce Mowbray: I'm off to Bert's. May all be safe, well, and happy!
    [14:00] Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
    [14:00] Qt Core: bye all

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