2012.11.28 07:00 - Hindsight of Ego

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

    Zen Arado: Hi Druth :)
    druth Vlodovic: hi zen :)
    Zen Arado: how's things?
    druth Vlodovic: ok
    druth Vlodovic: managing
    druth Vlodovic: how about you?
    Zen Arado: ah the same I guess
    Zen Arado: managing is a good way to put it
    Zen Arado: managing my life
    Zen Arado: think I would get fired if someone appraised me :)
    druth Vlodovic: lol
    Zen Arado: oh it's laggy here today
    druth Vlodovic: well,it often depends on who does the appraising and how much they know about your job
    druth Vlodovic: often people in the position to make such decisions are determined not to know :)
    Zen Arado: I have to manage disability
    Zen Arado: can be challenging
    Zen Arado: but then I am reasonably intelligent
    druth Vlodovic: "reasonably" :)
    druth Vlodovic: I know you do art, I didn't realize you had a job
    Zen Arado: uh oh restart
    druth Vlodovic: sigh
    Zen Arado: going to Kira?
    druth Vlodovic: sure

    Region restarted here:

    druth Vlodovic: hi zen :)
    druth Vlodovic: at first I was wondering why you got to walk through walls and I couldn't
    druth Vlodovic: then I realized
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi again :)
    druth Vlodovic: you made it back
    Zen (zen.arado): couldn't stop then got logged out
    Zen (zen.arado): you remember the topic this week?
    druth Vlodovic: hindsight I think
    Second Life: Bruce (bruce.mowbray) is offline.
    Second Life: MellowDee (melody1778) is offline.
    druth Vlodovic: I'll have to go in about 20 min though
    druth Vlodovic: what would you like to talk about?
    Zen (zen.arado): hmmm
    Second Life: MellowDee (melody1778) is online.
    Zen (zen.arado): can't think of much to say about hindsight
    druth Vlodovic: regrets etc
    druth Vlodovic: or lessons learned
    Zen (zen.arado): just that it's easier to see things from that perspective
    druth Vlodovic: maybe fond memories, though it is seldom used in that context
    druth Vlodovic: we use nostalgia for happy things
    Zen (zen.arado): it's usually associated with clarity isn't it?
    Zen (zen.arado): a kind of retrospective clarity
    druth Vlodovic: yes, seeing things without the veil of current events and moods
    Zen (zen.arado): and you know how it all turned out
    druth Vlodovic: people talk about experiencing this when they read the log of a meeting they had attended
    Zen (zen.arado): so you can attribute reasons why
    druth Vlodovic: or at least results
    Zen (zen.arado): but it's probably just as false
    Zen (zen.arado): another conceptual map
    druth Vlodovic: people tell me to "be in the present" maybe if I could do that it would give me a kind of hindsight for what I am currently experiencing
    druth Vlodovic: or "be in the moment"
    Zen (zen.arado): there is only the moment
    Zen (zen.arado): you can't not be in the present
    Zen (zen.arado): but you can think about the past and future
    druth Vlodovic: people live in a kind of temporal haze consisting of the past and present,at least according to terry Pratchett, who was pretty wise
    Zen (zen.arado): yeh
    druth Vlodovic: memories and expectations, covering our present like a layer of wool
    Zen (zen.arado): 'temporal haze. nice
    druth Vlodovic: one thing I like about the dropping idea is that it takes a cut of "now" and says "what's up"
    druth Vlodovic: so you end up seeing part of your "current"
    druth Vlodovic: and it does alter your flow for the day
    Zen (zen.arado): I was reading Alan Watts last night
    druth Vlodovic: oh?
    Zen (zen.arado): or what is it?
    druth Vlodovic: what was it about?
    Zen (zen.arado): lost one of my lines
    druth Vlodovic: Alan Watts :)
    Zen (zen.arado): 'If, then, you ask me how to get beyond the ego-feeling, I shall ask you why you want to get there. If you give me the honest answer, which is that your ego will feel better in the “higher spiritual status” of self-transcendence, you will thus realize that you—as ego—are a fake.
    Zen (zen.arado): 'You will feel like an onion: skin after skin, subterfuge after subterfuge, is pulled off to find no kernel at the center. Which is the whole point: to find out that the ego is indeed a fake—a wall of defense around a wall of defense … around nothing. You can’t even want to get rid of it, nor yet want to want to.
      Watts, Alan (2011-01-03). The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are (p. 122). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

    Zen (zen.arado): so what is at our core after we have dropped everything we can drop?

    Fake or real ego?

    druth Vlodovic: nah,I don't take that "you are a fake" thing
    Zen (zen.arado): heh
    druth Vlodovic: you are the onion
    druth Vlodovic: all the layers together
    druth Vlodovic: and interracting
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Xirana ;)
    druth Vlodovic: I don't even buy the idea of ego being a bad thing
    druth Vlodovic: if it is trained properly
    druth Vlodovic: hi Xir
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello Zen and druth! :)
    druth Vlodovic: having one's own perspective is necessary for such things as character and morality
    druth Vlodovic: and decisive action
    Zen (zen.arado): it's necessary for daily living

    druth Vlodovic: I wonder sometimes if the idea of "no self" isn't similar in purpose to the christian idea of guilt
    druth Vlodovic: a way to separate people fromclearthought and decisive action which might be harmful the authorities in the organization
    Zen (zen.arado): elaborate?
    druth Vlodovic: I realized recently that my dilike of religion is based on them being organizations, rather than spiritual
    Zen (zen.arado): a way to control people you mean?
    druth Vlodovic: well, guilt means you don't trust yourself,so you must trust somone else
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Zen (zen.arado): self appointed priests interpreting God for us
    druth Vlodovic: no-self makes people less willing to take extreme action, which can add to a person's strength and effectiveness,or detract from it
    Zen (zen.arado): and saying 'you must do this'
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I have the same feeling druth... I don't like the organisations around religions...but I feel that somehow, we all have a kind of spirituality...you may call 'religiousuity'
    druth Vlodovic: lol,just when it gets interesting,I have to run and pay someone to poke my tummy :)
    druth Vlodovic: have fun guys :)
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye druth! have fun too
    Zen (zen.arado): we can continue another time Druth :)
    Zen (zen.arado): ty for coming
    druth Vlodovic: ty for hosting :)
    Zen (zen.arado): even in Zen they have that religiosity
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): how are you Zen!! I see that your session still is the restart time
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
    Zen (zen.arado): ok ty and you?
    Zen (zen.arado): I see you are doing a French lesson
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): fine ty:) getting snowy and very cold here
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): thanks for the notecard:) but it was empty:)))
    Zen (zen.arado): oh?
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): no problem...I can read later in the log:)
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): maybe you forgot to 'save'?
    Zen (zen.arado): sorry I gave you the wrong one
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ahhh I see :) this one is ok:)
    Zen (zen.arado): it took so long to come up I made a second and then gave you that
    Zen (zen.arado): by mistake
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): no problem at all:)

    Languages and writing:

    Zen (zen.arado): so how is the French lesson going?
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): we have prepared a new session for tomorrow:)...I hope you can come too:)...learning vocabulary ....
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): tomorrow about computers
    Zen (zen.arado): I can't come to the Monday one
    Zen (zen.arado): I have Original Face meeting at that time
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): Monday?
    Zen (zen.arado): you had one on Monday?
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): tomorrow is Thursday:)
    Zen (zen.arado): oh maybe the notice was on Monday only
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): no, I have Catalan on Thuesdays:)) you will be also very welcome:))
    Zen (zen.arado): notices come up when I am doing something else so I don't read them properly
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I usually look at the Calendar...it is easier...if I am here and have time.
    Zen (zen.arado): I forgot about that
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I will have to organise a German chat.... I will forget all what I have learned if I don't
    Second Life: leaping Panther (darren.islar) is offline.
    Zen (zen.arado): so is there French lesson on TThursday?
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): langages if you don't practice are very easy to forget
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes:)
    Zen (zen.arado): what time?
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): at 12 am... our 21:00
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): is it a good time for you?
    Second Life: s a n (santoshima) is offline.
    Zen (zen.arado): 8pm for me
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ahh yes:)
    Zen (zen.arado): might be ok
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): have you been thinking about the new Art of being project...clarity?
    Zen (zen.arado): but you and Elinor are too advanced for me
    Zen (zen.arado): a little
    Second Life: levi Ewing is offline.
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): me too...but still not great inspiration:)
    Zen (zen.arado): I went to Annettes session twice but I don't understand when she speaks fast
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): we prepare exercices for intermediate level...specailly to learn vocabulary with images
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): Apr...has also asked about the use of prepositions.... we will prepare too...but slolwy:)
    Zen (zen.arado): I'm still only advanced beginner I think
    Zen (zen.arado): I was doing prepositions last week in duolingo
    Zen (zen.arado): difficult
    Zen (zen.arado): and past compound verbs
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): great....probably you know more tyhan I now:)) I use them without thinking
    Zen (zen.arado): I make many mistakes
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes...with Anette we speak quite fast
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): we learn making mistakes Zen..in a lot of aspects of life too
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): in my view
    Zen (zen.arado): I know
    Zen (zen.arado): I went back to duolingo from Lingq
    Second Life: TwoEagles Swansong is offline.
    Zen (zen.arado): it makes me do pronunciation
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I am reading about 'teaching languages' and last theories consider the 'mistakes' a very important part of the learning
    Zen (zen.arado): even though it is annoying when I have to repeat lessons
    Second Life: Aphrodite Macbain is online.
    Zen (zen.arado): ye I agree
    Zen (zen.arado): but they translate to English badly in duo;ingo sometimes and them mark me wrong
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): and about 'pronounciation'... it is not the most important...actually teaching langages center in 'comunication'...being able to comunicate appropiatly in any context
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): we had a discussion last time about it...one of mthe group thought we should center in pronuntiation...by luck others did not worry so much about it:)
    Zen (zen.arado): what book was that Xiri?
    Zen (zen.arado): I am improving my English with this writing course
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): it is a book edited by my7 university..UOC...in Catalan:)...but they give a lot of references about important theories in learning languages...I can give it to you if you want
    Zen (zen.arado): they are very fussy about punctuation
    Second Life: TwoEagles Swansong is online.
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): well..punctuation is different, it can change the whole sense of a sentence
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Zen (zen.arado): apostrophes and semi-colons
    Zen (zen.arado): very important in English
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): it's always interesting to learn about the uses of language and its 'tricks'..I am sure in the course you do you learn a lot about it
    Zen (zen.arado): yes you learn about learnign languages
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe rules aren't so important
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): have you got 'inspiration' for your stories??
    Zen (zen.arado): we learn as children without rules
    Zen (zen.arado): I am writing one about fishing atm
    Zen (zen.arado): I need 2,200 words
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): the rules are important...but actually they don't center the learning in them...but in the use of language...
    Zen (zen.arado): but I have that..ned a lot of editing now
    Zen (zen.arado): so much to learn about writing
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): we will organise a 'reading' session at PaB...it would be great to share
    Zen (zen.arado): I just write about my life
    Zen (zen.arado): change it a bit
    Zen (zen.arado): it is all a story anyway ;)
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): do you tell lies?? (joking!!! )))..
    Zen (zen.arado): well they aren#t lies if it is a story
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): autobiographu literatur is also 'literatur':)
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): exactly:))
    Zen (zen.arado): or a story is all lies :)
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes:))
    Zen (zen.arado): memory is selective anyway
    Zen (zen.arado): we choose what we want to remember
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes.... and more if you want to write about it
    Zen (zen.arado): an interpretation
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes:)
    Zen (zen.arado): you create a meaning from it
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): a meaning from 'interpretation'?
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes...that's it
    Zen (zen.arado): well it leads to somethng
    Zen (zen.arado): has a structure
    Second Life: MellowDee (melody1778) is offline.
    Second Life: Hiawatha Runningbear is online.
    Zen (zen.arado): even if is a mystery
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): some have tried to 'deconstruct' structures in writing too...like in the world of art
    Zen (zen.arado): and you aren't supposed to tell the reader too much
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): but...probably not a lot of succes
    Zen (zen.arado): yes it is so much like painting
    Zen (zen.arado): better to suggest things
    Zen (zen.arado): so reader can fill in the details
    Zen (zen.arado): just give them enough
    Zen (zen.arado): and we have to use dialogue
    Zen (zen.arado): make it seem natural
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes... I agree... the witer I have been studing explained about a short story of Katerin Mansfiel...she talked all time of a bird (a canary)....to explain the solitude of an old woman..
    Zen (zen.arado): difficult I find
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): suggesting
    Zen (zen.arado): we had to read a story by James Joyce from 'Dubliners
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): not explaining directly...but after the realtion with the bird the reader can feel the solitude and sadness of the woman
    Zen (zen.arado): I see more in these stories now
    Zen (zen.arado): ah yes
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I hav aklso studied some stories of the 'Dubliners'...The boarding house....after it..I can also see a lot more in the sotries
    Zen (zen.arado): in my story the fisherman sttsrts to feel sorry fro the fish :)
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): great start:)
    Zen (zen.arado): I don't think I have enough imagination to be a writer though
    Zen (zen.arado): but I hope I get through the course
    Zen (zen.arado): I hope to write about SL
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): wel.... maybe it's not a matter of imagination...but you let yourself go...and will discover:)
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe I need to take drugs or something :)
    Zen (zen.arado): LSD ;)
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes... as it is also part of our lives.. it's normal to explain to it too...
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hahahaha
    Zen (zen.arado): my tutor suggested that
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes...that was a false 'idea' about artists:))
    Zen (zen.arado): writing about SL I mean
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): really??? I can not believe
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ahhhhhhh lol
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
    Zen (zen.arado): not taking drugs :)
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes...I see!! it was difficult to beleive:))
    Zen (zen.arado): mAYbe SL is like a drug
    Zen (zen.arado): people get addicted to it
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I am sure most writers and artists have been working hard and not taking drugs
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes.... that can happen too....to get addicted to it...
    Zen (zen.arado): my brain makes up stories when I dream
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): it is very powerful
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): do you remember the stories of your dreams?
    Zen (zen.arado): yes SL is a mutually created dream isn't it?
    Zen (zen.arado): if I write them down fast otherwise they disappear
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): it has a big amount of our own dreams, I think
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): but it has the interactive part
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): for exemple now...talking with you
    Second Life: nabrej Aabye is online.
    Zen (zen.arado): that can be a dream too maybe
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I can not preview what you are going to explain
    Zen (zen.arado): not a dream but idealized
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): wel... I guess you are real:))
    Zen (zen.arado): we make ourselves better than in RL
    Zen (zen.arado): or maybe we are more ourselves in SL?
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe RL limits us
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes, but maybe it is not bad....if we fel better why not?
    Zen (zen.arado): hah I like that thought
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): rl limits us for sure...so, we increase possibilitites here:)
    Second Life: druth Vlodovic is online.
    Zen (zen.arado): there is a novel about people uploading their minds to a virtual reality
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): is it good?
    Zen (zen.arado): it was interesting and funny
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I think we must keep our minds in rl too:))
    Zen (zen.arado): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everyone_in_Silico
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): thank you!! I will have a look at it later...I must go now Zen!
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): wb druth:)
    druth Vlodovic: tag!
    Zen (zen.arado): sure thanks for coming Xiri ;)
    druth Vlodovic: we'll see how long we can keepzen going :)
    Zen (zen.arado): wb druth
    druth Vlodovic: who is spotting me next?
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): see you soon! thanks for the nice chat:))
    druth Vlodovic: have fun Xir
    Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): tc both :)
    Second Life: Xirana (xirana.oximoxi) is offline.
    Zen (zen.arado): I'll have to go myself Druth
    Zen (zen.arado): I'm going out for a meal soon
    druth Vlodovic: ah, he has n escape clause
    druth Vlodovic: eat hearty :)
    Zen (zen.arado): I want to edit the log before I go out
    Zen (zen.arado): I hate leaving things undone
    druth Vlodovic: I have things to do too, it seems, tc zen
    Zen (zen.arado): kk Druth
    Zen (zen.arado): see you soon :)
    Zen (zen.arado): byee
    druth Vlodovic: bye :)

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