2013.05.19 19:00 - Meaning Without Language

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Cal
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm coming from Jane Austen country
    Calvino Rabeni: From the manor bourne?
    Aphrodite Macbain: not really - from the rectory
    Aphrodite Macbain: How have you been?
    Calvino Rabeni: church?
    Aphrodite Macbain: gtins
    Aphrodite Macbain: Anglican, C of E., Episcopalean
    Aphrodite Macbain: grins
    Aphrodite Macbain: I went to a Whitsunday picnic
    Calvino Rabeni: Memorized the lines that would be memorized then?
    Aphrodite Macbain: what lines?
    Calvino Rabeni: Don't know really, aren't there a variety of rituals with words that people know, in a church setting?
    Aphrodite Macbain: this was a picnic not a church setting - it  is/was likean easter picnic
    Aphrodite Macbain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitsunday
    Aphrodite Macbain: my family never celebrated it
    Aphrodite Macbain: It was an excuse to dress up and socialize
    Aphrodite Macbain: with sl folks who like to be from another century
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Korel
    Korel Laloix: Heya.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya KOro
    Aphrodite Macbain: Kori
    Korel Laloix: I know of Whitsunday.
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- it is today, apparently
    Korel Laloix: But never did anything on it, at least by that name.
    Aphrodite Macbain: The Sunday of the feast of Whitsun or Pentecost in the Christian liturgical year, observed 7 weeks after Easter
    Korel Laloix: Well, I do the orthodox callender, so not for a while yet for me.
    Aphrodite Macbain: One of the Scottish quarter days, always falling on 15 May
    Calvino Rabeni: There are no memorized word rituals in my modern life, but I feel like it would be interesting to experience having some
    Aphrodite Macbain: it was when the "holy ghost came down and people spoke in tongues"
    Aphrodite Macbain: I drank tea, ate pancakes and made conversation
    Korel Laloix: That is one thing I do like about the orthodox churches.. some of the rituals.
    Korel Laloix: That sounds great to me.
    Aphrodite Macbain: the Lord's prayer is a memorized word ritual isnt it?
    Korel Laloix: I think so.
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't understand the "tongues" attitudes yet

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it would be .. even I know it but don't have need for it regularly
    Aphrodite Macbain: Pentecost is a Christian holy day commemorating the descent of the Holy Ghost upon the disciples of Jesus Christ, according to the New Testament of the Bible. It is also known as Whitsunday, or Whit Sunday.
    Aphrodite Macbain: According to Christian texts, the Holy Spirit, often symbolized by a dove, descended on the apostles who received the gift of tongues. Pentecost celebrates this event.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I am not sure of the importance of the gift of tongues
    Korel Laloix: Not one I am sure of either.
    Korel Laloix: One of teh parts of the Bible I have not really hit yet.
    Aphrodite Macbain: As recorded in the New Testament of the Bible, it was on the 50th day after Easter that the apostles were praying together and the Holy Spirit descended on them. They received the “gift of tongues” – the ability to speak in other languages – and immediately began to preach about Jesus Christ to Jewish people from all over the world who flocked to Jerusalem for the Feast of Shavuot
    Aphrodite Macbain: so they were able to proselytize more easily
    Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting that it was an issue
    Korel Laloix: That whole language thing can be a problem you know.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I came from a Whitsunday party in SL Korel
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- and the translation
    Calvino Rabeni: How so, Korel, a problem?
    Aphrodite Macbain: listens
    Korel Laloix: If you don't speak someone's langauge and culture, you have a hard time communicating.
    Korel Laloix: I think in this reference, it means more than just the language.
    Aphrodite Macbain: It means they were better able to spread the gospel
    Korel Laloix: Exactly... brb
    Aphrodite Macbain: and the beginning of the Christian church
    Calvino Rabeni: the gift of tongues is more than language .. well it is speaking without the language .. ? or somrthing that they can interpret and understand?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think it means they can speak in other languages
    Aphrodite Macbain: of their region
    Calvino Rabeni: Not an ecstatic kind of babbling ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I dont know
    Aphrodite Macbain: though I think that has been seen as a form of miracle when people do
    Aphrodite Macbain: it happens today in some fundamentalist religions
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi all!
    Aphrodite Macbain: we are speaking about speaking in tongues
    Lucinda Lavender: glad to see you but especially Korl...
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Luci, Korel, Cal, Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Luci
    Aphrodite Macbain: wherever you are
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Cinda, Seevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: never actually hears that
    Calvino Rabeni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia
    stevenaia Michinaga: cept on tv
    Aphrodite Macbain: who knows what really happened with the apostles sor whether anything happened at all
    Aphrodite Macbain: but in the 1st century, it was seen as a miracle
    Korel Laloix: And today it is a matter of faith in a way.
    Aphrodite Macbain: the more miracles you could produce, the more people would follow you
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes KOrel
    Aphrodite Macbain: it seems to me miracles are always a matter of faith or are unexplainable
    Korel Laloix: or both.
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods, yes
    Korel Laloix: Lots of unexplainable good things and bad things happen each day really.

    Lucinda Lavender: I had my concert...it went well enough...and discovered that pho is a great help for a cold...
    Aphrodite Macbain: I was trying to think of some from today
    Aphrodite Macbain: pho?
    Korel Laloix: pho?. the vietnamese dish?
    Lucinda Lavender: the vietnamese soup
    Korel Laloix: OH Ok.. if it is hot enough... smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: yummy, it;s chicken soup, how could it hurt
    Lucinda Lavender: yes... the steam and jalapenos
    Lucinda Lavender: and yes chicken on purpose
    Calvino Rabeni: Here's an interesting quote .. from the article, and a bit like singing too, Cinda
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh - I just thought it meant soup
    Korel Laloix: Well, if done right with somehting more hot than jalapenos.
    Lucinda Lavender: it does
    Lucinda Lavender: the choices are many for the ingredients
    Lucinda Lavender: now I want to learn how to make it
    Lucinda Lavender: what was giving me a pain in the head and throat just melted away
    Calvino Rabeni:

    Augustine did, however, recognise a phenomenon he called jubilation[35] - sounds of exaltation without words; commentators such as Richard Hogue speculate that the practice of singing in the spirit persisted in Augustine's era, although xenoglossia was no longer extant among Christians:[36] Behold, he giveth as it were the tune of thy song; seek not words as if thou couldest explain whereby God is pleased. Sing with jubilation: for this is to sing skilfully unto God, to sing with jubilation. What is it to sing with jubilation ? To be unable to understand, to express in words, what is sung in the heart. For singers, either in the harvest, or in the vineyard, or in any other busy work, after they have begun in the words of their hymns to exult and rejoice, being as it were filled with so great joy, that they cannot express it in words, then turn from actual words, and proceed to sounds of jubilation. The jubilee is a sound signifying that the heart laboureth with that which it cannot utter.

    Aphrodite Macbain: You had a cold during your concert? :(
    Calvino Rabeni: computer is so slow, he's talking about the previous subject
    Lucinda Lavender: yes all week while preparing
    Korel Laloix: Thanks...good reading.
    Aphrodite Macbain: nice Cal-
    Lucinda Lavender: pho and a nap...very helpful
    Aphrodite Macbain: singing in a shower
    Lucinda Lavender: nice cal
    Aphrodite Macbain: scat
    Aphrodite Macbain: making joyful sound
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder what prompted singing in Neanderthal days
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they did neuroscience brain scans of speaking in tongues - would be interesting if they compared it with scat singing
    Calvino Rabeni: Apparently no language centers of the brain are active during it
    Aphrodite Macbain: thinks of Bobby McFarren (sp?)
    Lucinda Lavender: One becomes an instrument perhaps
    Aphrodite Macbain: wonder what part of the brain was activated
    Aphrodite Macbain: is there a separate part for music and tone?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I want to come back in my next life as a neuro scientist
    Lucinda Lavender: :))
    Lucinda Lavender: love learning about the brain
    Lucinda Lavender: and song
    Aphrodite Macbain: Kori - are there research jobs in neuroscience?
    Aphrodite Macbain: me too-
    Aphrodite Macbain: ethno musicologists
    Aphrodite Macbain: searches the web for an answer
    Korel Laloix: Yes...
    Calvino Rabeni: If "next life" is in a entury or so, it might make sense to come back as a cyborg - then it would be posible t experiment a bit more with the mechanical part of one's brain programming .. perhaps the nobel prizewinning neuroscientist of 2100 will be acyborg ...
    Calvino Rabeni: (or not )
    Korel Laloix: Not someething that really catches my attention though.
    Aphrodite Macbain: yikes
    Korel Laloix: Interesting thought.
    Korel Laloix: Cyborg is an interesting word though.
    Korel Laloix: Not really sure what it means.
    Calvino Rabeni: cybernetic organism
    Aphrodite Macbain: a robot, no?
    Aphrodite Macbain: "some of the brain circuits involved in music perception appear to be separate from those that process language and other sounds in the environment. Evidence for this comes from studies on people with amusia, a severe form of tone-deafness. Amusical individuals are unable to perceive pitch differences in music, and consequently may have an inability to sing in tune, dance to music, or remember songs. Surprisingly, such individuals have otherwise fully normal cognitive abilities, and their language and hearing abilities are unscathed."
    Calvino Rabeni: no, a hybrid between biological animal and machine
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah right- I believe (the sci-fi writer) William Gibson coined the word

    Calvino Rabeni: there are also people unable to speak .. but they can remember and recite whole songs with words and all
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes it has something to do wwwwith the way memory works
    Korel Laloix: They way the brain acts post trauma is amazing.
    Aphrodite Macbain: people can remember a whole song but cant remember what was just said to them
    Rosatta Resident: 's current display-name is "Rosatta".
    Calvino Rabeni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scat_singing
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Rosatta
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a bit like, people who can't walk .. but they can ride a bicycle okay
    Lucinda Lavender: can you say more Korel?
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Rosatta Resident: Hi, Aphrodite : )
    Korel Laloix: Well, people with brain injuries.....
    Korel Laloix: End up with some pretty strange issues.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Their brains can repair themselves
    Korel Laloix: one case I read recently where I guy lost the ability to visual ize things spacially.
    Aphrodite Macbain: brains are "plastic"
    Korel Laloix: Very adapative.. to a point.
    Aphrodite Macbain: A good way to learn about the function of a brain is to observe people with brain damage
    Aphrodite Macbain: and see what is missing or has changed in their brain
    Korel Laloix: yes.. and sadly there are lots to observe.
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: Did you read about the neuroscientist who had a stroke?
    Rosatta Resident: I found the book "The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat" fascinating
    Calvino Rabeni shudders
    Aphrodite Macbain: She was able to observe from the inside what happened to her
    Korel Laloix: I have read a number of case studies, yes.
    stevenaia Michinaga: she gave a great TED talk abut it
    Aphrodite Macbain: and rememebr it and record it
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes!
    Aphrodite Macbain: what makes you shudder Cal?
    stevenaia Michinaga: and was interviewed today on Radio Lab on NPR
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh! what a coincidence
    Calvino Rabeni: The shudder is the sense of how many viewers of the TED talk sort of figured themight be better off with half their brain damaged
    Rosatta Resident: Ok, that's not right
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.radiolab.org/2010/aug/09/?utm_source=local&utm_media=treatment&utm_campaign=daMost&utm_content=damostviewed
    Calvino Rabeni: a sort of quasi enlightenment through injury
    Aphrodite Macbain: why would they do that?
    Aphrodite Macbain: just to learn?
    Calvino Rabeni: to me it seemed a bit like a deliverance myth
    Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose there are many scientists who have used themselves as guinea pigs
    Rosatta Resident: Do you think that hypnosis also shows how the brain works to some extent? It seems to, to me
    Calvino Rabeni: Nods, yes, a lot of self experimentation by Oliver Sacks
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh? can you say more Rosatta?
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree, Rosatta
    Rosatta Resident: Watching the shows put on, it is interesting what can and acnnot be done to someone under hypnosis
    Aphrodite Macbain: does it affect how we understand memory?
    Rosatta Resident: *cannot
    Rosatta Resident: Definitely perception, so that would include memory, I would think
    Calvino Rabeni: It probably shows functional alterations that can occur by switching on and off different brain functions
    Aphrodite Macbain: so somethings are unchangeable and some things can be affected and influenced
    Aphrodite Macbain wonders where attitudes and beliefs are stored in the brain
    Rosatta Resident: I watched a woman so deeply under that it was unusual, but teh hypnotist could not get her to believe that gummi bears were star burst candy
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: maybe she didnt know what star burst candy was
    Calvino Rabeni: Attitudes and beliefs would be widely distributed, using different brain areas .. but that's true of a lot of activities
    Rosatta Resident: She hated gummi bears and loved star bursts - and the hypnotists could not convincer her the gummi bears were not gummit bears
    Rosatta Resident: She actually spit one out and gavae it back to him
    Aphrodite Macbain: taste is deeply embedded into memory. I often wonder why I hate cucumbers
    Calvino Rabeni: it starts to be like asking, where in an engine is the "torque"
    Aphrodite Macbain: Nods
    Calvino Rabeni: its dependent on correct functioning of many parts
    Korel Laloix: Probably becuase they are nasty Aph.. smiles
    Rosatta Resident: Ah
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: night all
    Calvino Rabeni: Some people claim that as their *favorite vegetable*
    Aphrodite Macbain: night stevie
    Rosatta Resident: Good night, Stevenia
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Stevenaia
    Rosatta Resident: It was good seeing you again
    Korel Laloix: Some people have poor taste yes.
    Korel Laloix: Take care...
    Calvino Rabeni: Can you name a better vegetable? Maybe a pumpkin?
    Aphrodite Macbain: the smell makes me sick
    Rosatta Resident: I have often pondered the things I've seen in those shows
    Aphrodite Macbain: a watermelon is also very offensive to me
    Korel Laloix: Pumpkins are good.
    Rosatta Resident: It's a little scary how easily something can be suggested and the person believes it is real
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- people dont need to be hypnotized

    Korel Laloix: brb
    Aphrodite Macbain: they believe authority, they believe a crowd
    Aphrodite Macbain: whispers: time for dinner. CU tomorrow Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: According to some postmodern theorists, the idea of an "authentic utterance" is a modernist invention
    Rosatta Resident: Or if something is said over and over and over
    Calvino Rabeni: nods .. yes, I ought ot go too
    Rosatta Resident: Good night, Aphrodite
    Korel Laloix: Take care
    Calvino Rabeni: before the system overheats and crashes
    Calvino Rabeni: take care everyone
    Rosatta Resident: Good night, Cal
    Korel Laloix: Ciao
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Rosatta, Korel, Cinda
    Korel Laloix: Take care
    Korel Laloix: Just watching the weather now, Still pretty scary.
    Lucinda Lavender: I hope all are as safe as can be...
    Lucinda Lavender: I bet it is!
    Korel Laloix: Just glad I am over here...
    Korel Laloix: Tiem for bed though.
    Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat all.
    Rosatta Resident: Take care, Korel
    Korel Laloix: ciao all
    Rosatta Resident: I hope you are healing well from your fall
    Lucinda Lavender: yes! me too
    Korel Laloix: yes I am.. a bit less painful today, bu still on the motrin.
    Korel Laloix: Ciao
    Lucinda Lavender: stay safe...
    Lucinda Lavender: I should go too
    Rosatta Resident: The session time is past, anyway : )
    Rosatta Resident: It was very good to see you again, Lucinda
    Rosatta Resident: I'll leave the circle so you can get the log
    Lucinda Lavender: Thanks...it was Cal's I think
    Lucinda Lavender: see you again..
    Rosatta Resident: Oh, ok : )
    Rosatta Resident: Sleep well, sweet lady
    Lucinda Lavender: bye for now..
    Lucinda Lavender: :))


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