2014.02.01 13:00 - "her," theme session #1

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

    This was a theme session devoted to discussing the movie "her."  It was not only the longest session I've ever attended in PaB, it was probably the most thought-provoking and down-right inspiring session - for me - in four years.  We're planning more theme sessions on this movie in the coming week.  I'll be there!

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    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu!
    Bleu Oleander: hey Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: I loved your machinima of the Theater, Bleu!
    Bleu Oleander: oh ty, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: beautifully made, and brought back fond memories.
    Bleu Oleander: was a nice memory!
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Wasn't it fun putting those sketches together?
    Bleu Oleander: it was
    Bruce Mowbray: I can hardly believe it has been two years.
    Bleu Oleander: I know!
    Bleu Oleander: we had a special energy back then
    Bruce Mowbray: Indeed, we did.
    Bleu Oleander: not sure it would happen again
    Bleu Oleander: but worth trying!
    Bruce Mowbray: (like unto, perhaps, the energy of Samantha in the movie "her.")
    Bleu Oleander: ha ha!
    Bruce Mowbray: Ari!
    Bleu Oleander: hi Ari
    Arisia Vita: greetings all
    Bruce Mowbray: Always a pleasure to have a citizen of Pandora among us!


    Arisia Vita: ty so much
    Arisia Vita: we love to connect with others :)
    Arisia Vita: welcome Wol
    Bruce Mowbray: Wol!
    Bleu Oleander: hiya Wol
    Wol Euler: greetings
    Wol Euler: quick survey before we begin
    Wol Euler: see my t-shirt?
    Wol Euler: like it?
    Arisia Vita: yes
    Bleu Oleander: cute
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't know if everyone has seen the article that Wol linked on FB...
    Bruce Mowbray: Do you folks want a link to that?
    Wol Euler: Would you not buy this because it isn't mesh? if it were for a reasonable price?
    Wol Euler: maker thinks it wouldn't sell, because it's not mesh
    Arisia Vita: would we not? or would we?
    Bleu Oleander: so far I'm not a fan of mesh
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't understand what the advantages and disadvantages of "mesh" are.
    Arisia Vita: I have trouble getting mesh to fit me
    Wol Euler: Everyone does, ari!
    Arisia Vita: :)
    Wol Euler: "one size fits nobody"
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Here's Aggers!
    Arisia Vita: the usual solution is to make your body invisible, then nothing shows
    Bleu Oleander: hey Aggers
    Wol Euler: hello aggers
    Agatha Macbeth: Missed!
    Agatha Macbeth: Ello dere
    Wol Euler: which article, Bruce? slow reads?
    Arisia Vita: ty Aggers, I was wondering
    Bruce Mowbray: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/cinema/2013/12/23/131223crci_cinema_lane
    Wol Euler: ah, that :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Surprised to see you here Wollie
    Bruce Mowbray: I THOUGHT you linked us to that. Am I wrong, Wol?
    Wol Euler: Let's just say that my objection has been rendered irrelevant, and leave it at that
    Wol Euler: I did, yes :)
    Wol Euler: I forgot
    Bruce Mowbray: hmmmmm.
    Agatha Macbeth: Nothing like an irrelevant objection
    Bleu Oleander: hey Yaku
    Arisia Vita: welcome Yak
    Bruce Mowbray: I will ask my OS to figure out the ramifications of your objection --- once she figures out what the objection was,,,,, unless you mean that we're discussing a movie you have not seen yet....?
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Yak
    Bruce Mowbray: and that there will probably be "spoilers...."?
    Agatha Macbeth: I'll get my tea
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Yaku!
    Bleu Oleander: Have most seen the movie?
    Arisia Vita: I have
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Good evening, yes i did too
    Bruce Mowbray: I have watched it three times.
    Wol Euler: I have, yes.
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh great!
    Wol Euler: As I said, my objection was rendered irrelevant
    Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Wol Euler coughs discreetly.
    Bruce Mowbray: I am delighted to hear that!
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, perhaps we could begin with a circle-trip about each of your impressions.... perhaps a one-liner or two from each of us, then?
    Bruce Mowbray: Did you enjoy the movie?
    Bleu Oleander: yes!
    Wol Euler: loved it totally
    Bruce Mowbray: Did you find it "realistic"? Plausible?
    Bruce Mowbray: etc etc etc.
    Wol Euler: absolutely.
    Bleu Oleander: yes!
    Wol Euler: oh, sorry :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: in the near near future imaginable
    Bruce Mowbray: no, that's fine, Wol.
    Bruce Mowbray loves spontaneity.
    Bruce Mowbray: Eliza!
    Agatha Macbeth: Liz ♥
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome!
    Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza
    Wol Euler: hello eliza <3
    Bruce Mowbray: I think we have all seen the movie "her," and are now just giving some one-liner impressions...
    Arisia Vita: I wondered why such an intelligent OS (AI) would be limited to being a companion. Surely it could change everything else in the world.
    Bruce Mowbray: . . . before getting into the deeper stuff, as it were.
    Agatha Macbeth: I haven't
    Bleu Oleander: "hermaid"
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh!
    Eliza Madrigal: sorry to be late ::settles in quietly:::
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, then....
    Bruce Mowbray: aggers, close your eyes, then, OK?
    Wol Euler: the end hints at that, don't you think, ari?
    Agatha Macbeth: No, that's why I'm here to find out
    Bruce Mowbray: kk, great. Really glad you are here, aggers.
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes it is :p
    Wol Euler pokes you
    Agatha Macbeth: Yaaa
    Bruce Mowbray: anyone else care to share a general impression ....?
    Wol Euler: clockwise?
    Wol Euler: would be me :)
    Bruce Mowbray: doesn't matter, go for it, whoever.  Wol!
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure what has been shared thus far... clockwise seems a good idea
    Bruce Mowbray: clockwise it is, starting with Wol.
    Agatha Macbeth: Clockwise or widdershins
    Arisia Vita: not to me, unless the AI didn't care about those left behind, which would defy the premise of the movie, it could easily "leave behind" enough of itself to help the poor humans
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.  Fascinating, Ari.
    Wol Euler: I loved it even more than I expected to. The review calls it sci-fi which I think is wrong. It's about people and pain and love, and happens to involve a piece of technology.
    Bruce Mowbray: Shall we call the OS "Sam"?
    Arisia Vita: sure
    Wol Euler: but it isn't Star Wars or anything like that
    Bleu Oleander: agrees with that :)
    Wol Euler: I was deeply moved, again far more than I expected
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
    Bruce Mowbray: Me too, Wol, all three times that I watched it.
    Wol Euler: the arc from funny to sad to future-questionable was extremely well carried.
    Wol Euler: done
    Bruce Mowbray: ty!

    Bruce Mowbray: Eliza?

    Eliza Madrigal: oh wow... clockwise is to me isn't it...
    Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hah.... okay
    Agatha Macbeth: It's a big clock
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I completely agree with Wol, with regard to what it is 'about'
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Aphie
    Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Aph.
    Wol Euler: hello aph, I'll give you a notecard
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey aph
    Bruce Mowbray: ty, Wol.
    Eliza Madrigal: and yet... I was a little disappointed with the film 'as' a film, in that it skimmed many surfaces but didn't manage to hit me in the soft spot as deeply as might have been the potential. I think it is just that... it is familiar and weighty territory and I longed to see it reach deeper
    Bleu Oleander: hiya Aph


    Aphrodite Macbain: whispers hi
    Bruce Mowbray: [ hi and hug ]
    Eliza Madrigal: I do love the film, love it intellectually and aesthetically am captivated... have seen it twice... but I didn't cry ... just a few almost tears at two moments. I related too much, almost, to Samantha and that may be why I longed for a bit more depth.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: done for now :)
    Bruce Mowbray: wonderful. TY, Eliza.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yaku?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Ok, it also questions the 1-to-1 relationships that are the "normal"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sam had the capability to be "in love" with 800 ppl
    Bruce Mowbray: nods.
    Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Sam seemed to have the power to keep enough attention for everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: and without a body, nobody is left out who wanted attention
    Bruce Mowbray: sort of like a god - or goddess?
    Bruce Mowbray listens intently.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: I would not see her as a god but who are humans and how advanced can ai´s be?
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Yakuzza Lethecus: well to ari
    Bruce Mowbray: hmmm.
    Bruce Mowbray: TY, Yaku!
    Eliza Madrigal: ty Yaku
    Bruce Mowbray: Ari?
    Arisia Vita: I loved the movie because it will get so many to start thinking about the role AI will play in our near future.As I said, the question I had at the end was why smart Sam couldn't create a new Sam for a companion with the capabilities of the original beloved one? The smart Sam could then leave and still the humans would have their companions.
    Arisia Vita: I do think the smart Sam still cared.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: good point! I felt that was a bit of a cop out too... all the OSs leaving that way ^^
    Bruce Mowbray: Are you saying that Sam is selfish, then?  (or dangerous??)
    Aphrodite Macbain: How would it have continued?
    Wol Euler: That was the one bit of the film that was "classic sci-fi" for me :) I accepted that
    Bruce Mowbray: Let's hear from Bleu (if Ari is done) and then get to some of these questions...
    Arisia Vita: done
    Bruce Mowbray: wonderful questions, btw!
    Wol Euler: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Wol Euler: and not to forget Aph after bleu
    Bruce Mowbray: oh yes, TY!
    Aphrodite Macbain: smiles at Wol
    Arisia Vita: who could forget Aph? :)
    Bruce Mowbray: NOT ME!  ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Aphrodite Macbain: blushes
    Bleu Oleander: I thought the movie put its finger on contemporary relationships quite well, actually
    Bleu Oleander: not so futuristic for me
    Bleu Oleander: the lines I liked were the one Theodore said, "I feel like I can be anything with you."
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Bleu Oleander: and the response, Theodore: I've never loved anyone the way I loved you. Samantha: Me too. Now we know how.
    Bruce Mowbray: oh yes.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Wol Euler nods.
    Aphrodite Macbain: without reserve
    Arisia Vita: without conditions
    Bleu Oleander: makes me ask the question, how do we do relationships today and what might they be like in the future?
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Bruce Mowbray: (Didn't Sam do EVERYTHING without reserve, though?)
    Bruce Mowbray: TY, Bleu.
    Eliza Madrigal: that's the thing... there were conditions... he lost a bit of his passion when he realized she wasn't "his" alone
    Agatha Macbeth: Theodore means God's gift - dunno if that's significant
    Bruce Mowbray: and again, your machinima of the theater is WONDERFUL, Bleu!
    Bleu Oleander: ty Bruce :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: interesting observation, Aggers
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, aggers.
    Agatha Macbeth smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: I also noted that THEODORE and SAMANTHA have the same number of letters....
    Bruce Mowbray: which might be part of why Sam chose that for her name.
    Bruce Mowbray: But on to Aph!
    Bruce Mowbray: (if Bleu is done.)
    Aphrodite Macbain: ponders the significance of numbers
    Aphrodite Macbain: thanks!
    Aphrodite Macbain: 2 things
    Aphrodite Macbain: First, it was amazing how the feelings that are generated by a relationship such as theirs were so similar to some of my relationships in sl - including the need for a real body...
    Bruce Mowbray: oh yes!
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: on a more abstract level; it left me wondering what it is to be human
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed.
    Wol Euler: indeed
    Wol Euler: snap
    Aphrodite Macbain: does one need a body to be human?
    Bruce Mowbray: and, perhaps, how what it means to be human is evolving for all and for each of us.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I haven't been able to answer that yet
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I think you might be answering it every, every minute, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: tho for me physicality is important
    Bruce Mowbray listens.
    Aphrodite Macbain: that the body/mind dualism is somehow essential
    Bruce Mowbray: Really?
    Eliza Madrigal: I marveled when she begins to ask questions like "Are these feelings just programming?"
    Aphrodite Macbain: anyway

    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: kk, please continue.
    Aphrodite Macbain: b/c our feelings to a certain extent are also programmed
    Bruce Mowbray: (drop coming up fast).
    Bleu Oleander: what are the minimum requirements for a relationship?


    Aphrodite Macbain: watches her feet
    Agatha Macbeth: Hola Xira :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xiri :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Xir!
    Wol Euler: hello xiri, I'll give you a notecard of what we have said
    Bleu Oleander: hi Xiri
    Aphrodite Macbain: waves at Xirana
    Bruce Mowbray: THANKS so much, Wol.
    Bruce Mowbray: You save me a whole LOT of work here.
    Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone:)
    Bruce Mowbray: The movie isn't showing yet in the Iberian peninsula, is it?
    Wol Euler smiles modestly.
    Bruce Mowbray: kk, Xir says she has not yet seen it.
    Bleu Oleander: are feelings just programming?
    Bruce Mowbray: very well.
    Eliza Madrigal: under the question I felt she was asking "Am I just programming?"
    Aphrodite Macbain: emotions?
    Bruce Mowbray: So, another way one might ask that question is the deterministic argument of science: Is everything just cause and effect?  and we are the ultimate (so far) effect?
    Eliza Madrigal: loved their "argument" about breathing
    Bruce Mowbray listens for more about breathing.
    Eliza Madrigal: well he takes issue with her sighing...
    Aphrodite Macbain: ultimate cause or effect Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: BOTH!. . . . (?)

    Wol Euler: when he asked why she sighed
    Wol Euler: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: oh yes, I remember now.
    Aphrodite Macbain: and she said she was copying him... sigh
    Arisia Vita: breathing was like a mask Sam wore to please Theo
    Arisia Vita: 'Conceal me what I am, to be my aid for such disguise as haply shall become the form of my intent.'  - Shakespeare
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, I remember that.
    Eliza Madrigal: are we 'sighing' when we type "her"... all the time.. or relating?
    Eliza Madrigal: here*
    Wol Euler: much in the way RL lovers adopt each other's mannerisms, I might say
    Aphrodite Macbain: smiles at Ari
    Bruce Mowbray: (In this context, "her" vs. "here" makes a big difference, or does it?)
    Aphrodite Macbain: to please Wol?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: (ha ha)
    Bruce Mowbray: So lovers evolve toward acclimating each other, Wol?
    Aphrodite Macbain: or does she adopt them unconsciously as RL people can do
    Aphrodite Macbain: or like a child does
    Bleu Oleander: would the movie have been as successful had it been about a woman with a male OS?
    Bruce Mowbray: fascinating question!
    Arisia Vita: maybe for the women in the audience :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think so, provided the hero were a heroine
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought about that.... Amy's husband was basically more of a robot than Sam
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: hehehe,y es
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Bleu Oleander: interesting that you say that :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I loved her... and the video game of mommies... having played that :P
    Bruce Mowbray: (Well, I suppose there MIGHT be guys in SL who prefer to appear as female avi's -- and vice versa -- but of course, I don't know anything about that.)
    Wol Euler: Bleu, my guess is that it wouldn't have been, because half the audience (males) would have stayed away
    Wol Euler: maybe I underestimate them
    Aphrodite Macbain: you think, Wol? Why would they?
    Bruce Mowbray: LOVED Amy's video game -- and also how Amy and Theo got together at the end...
    Eliza Madrigal: It is an important question... I asked myself a lot whether he loved her because she revolved around him.
    Bruce Mowbray: as if compatible spirits who had been through MUCH ... and then found each other . . ?
    Wol Euler: ((can we table that and come back to it, Aph))
    Eliza Madrigal: you think they end up together?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Amy and Theo were friends first and foremost.
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, they were.
    Bruce Mowbray: So, does anyone have thoughts about "surrogates"?
    Aphrodite Macbain: That's why they could sustain a relationship based on a meeting of minds not bodies
    Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Aph on that.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I have thoughts but may be too embarrassed to express them
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: kk, then ....
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I found the experience with the surrogate so embarrassing!
    Eliza Madrigal: I wished he would just get out of his head about it and try
    Aphrodite Macbain: and was relieved when she was asked to leave
    Bruce Mowbray: absolutely fascinating how thoughts might cause one to become sexually inhibited...
    Bruce Mowbray: Did Sam ever feel that way - inhibited, I mean?
    Bleu Oleander: it was shockingly empty when the OS quit, even more so when, say, than when a human walks out of a relationship
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe so different responses Aph
    Yakuzza Lethecus: I thought it was also interesting that Theodore's job was to write deep personal letters for people to others so he in principle did what Sam was programmed to do - for his customers himself, adapting to random ppl on a deep emotional level
    Bruce Mowbray: Was Sam ever inhibited, or embarrassed?
    Bruce Mowbray: OH yes, Yaku.  Wonderful point . .  Theo enabled a surrogacy.  And Theo's letters were a form of surrogate, weren't they?

    Wol Euler: I understand his reluctance, though it was sad and unintentionally cruel
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Yaku
    Bruce Mowbray:
    Aphrodite Macbain: pretend
    Bruce Mowbray: yes!
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Arisia Vita: alas, I must go, a friend needs me and as much I am enjoying this, that is a high calling
    Bruce Mowbray: pretend...
    Bruce Mowbray: But did their recipients know that?
    Aphrodite Macbain: byee Ari
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Ari
    Eliza Madrigal: but I wondered if the people knew he wrote them.. which they seemed to...
    Wol Euler: bye Ari, be well
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye Ari
    Bruce Mowbray: Was it all a form of lie?
    Arisia Vita: see you all again soon
    Bleu Oleander: bye Ari
    Aphrodite Macbain: good question, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: bye for now, Ari!
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Ari;:)
    Bruce Mowbray: THANKS for joining us.
    Eliza Madrigal: "empty gestures"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: there was probably more truth in Sam than in Theodore
    Aphrodite Macbain: The book was published so they may have found out!
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting Yaku
    Bruce Mowbray: Right!
    Bruce Mowbray: I felt bad about that book.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: truth?
    Bruce Mowbray: Crown Press should be ashamed (or sued).
    Wol Euler: yes, it could have had awful repercussions
    Aphrodite Macbain: the issue never came up
    Bruce Mowbray: More truth in Sam than in Theo, Yaku?
    Wol Euler: the sequel to this film will start with him getting fired because of it
    Bleu Oleander: the sequel
    Bruce Mowbray: Please say more.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the letters he wrote vs how Sam adapted to him, that's where i thought Sam was more truthful
    Eliza Madrigal: but....
    Aphrodite Macbain: I got a sense Theo changed at the end
    Bruce Mowbray listens.
    Bleu Oleander: is it meaningful to say that an OS is truthful?
    Eliza Madrigal: Theo's observations of others were astute...and that's what he tuned into.
    Eliza Madrigal: it was a muted, dull time...in some ways
    Eliza Madrigal: and people wanted to hear something unique
    Aphrodite Macbain: when one isn't swayed by emotion, one can try to be more truthful
    Eliza Madrigal: she was truthful in her deep self-inquiry
    Bleu Oleander: what does that mean?
    Aphrodite Macbain: did Sam become more emotional as she developed?
    Eliza Madrigal: true to herself, in a sense...embracing "life" ?


    Aphrodite Macbain: I mean fear or desire can make one ignore the truth....the less rational the less illusional
    Bleu Oleander: I didn't attribute anything human to Sam, really
    Aphrodite Macbain: I mean the less rational the more illusional
    Bruce Mowbray: Is that why Sam left Theo at the end -- to be true to herself?
    Eliza Madrigal: well they all left
    Bruce Mowbray: Sam left first.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I was never clear why all the OS's were turned off
    Wol Euler: I feel that we could have a separate discussion on what happened at the end :)
    Bleu Oleander: that was the sci-fi part to me
    Bruce Mowbray: ok, that COULD easily be another theme session in itself!
    Bruce Mowbray listens.
    Wol Euler: I think they blobbed together into a Borg and went off to explore the universe.
    Eliza Madrigal: they reached the divide.. she probably needed him to be as voracious an inquirer as she was (he couldn't, being a mere human) and he needed her to be content with that... but hah... yes projections projections
    Aphrodite Macbain: Sam became more complex and evolved quickly, Theo less so
    Bruce Mowbray: The OS's blobbed together, you mean, Wol?
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Aphrodite Macbain: he couldn't keep up with her
    Bruce Mowbray: Was the building of an Alan Watts OS significant to Sam's evolution, then?
    Wol Euler: definitely
    Aphrodite Macbain: he was competition
    Wol Euler: when she talked about "we", the other OSes, working together
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm... does evolution take precedence over compassion, then?
    Eliza Madrigal: sort of greedy weren't they
    Wol Euler: that was the first clue of where they were going to go
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that's my point -- greedy.  Survival-based.
    Eliza Madrigal: greedy from a certain kind of view, nods... but also programmed to be that way
    Eliza Madrigal: self-learning
    Aphrodite Macbain: one can evolve into a compassionate being I think, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Is Sam dangerous? Is she selfish? Is she be-able?
    Wol Euler: greedy like a child ;) nothing on earth is as egotistical as a four-year-old
    Bruce Mowbray: good point, Wol.
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) no civilizing restrictions
    Bruce Mowbray: and she WAS like a child, wasn't she?
    Bruce Mowbray: Remember her conversation with the four-year-old?
    Aphrodite Macbain: only at the beginning
    Aphrodite Macbain: she evolved
    Eliza Madrigal: I liked the artistic aspects of her... her music... would have liked that to have been more prominent even
    Wol Euler: and it was also programmed into her. Create a machine that learns, and it will want to learn
    Wol Euler: yes, that was handled a bit too glibly
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i was surprised that the movie was not a bit more dystopian, the OS seemed to have been bought, and depending on the content that it had access to on his accounts it adapted to him without to commercially exploit him, advertisement on such a level must be a dream, maybe in the ,"freemium" version of Sam
    Eliza Madrigal: it was so touching
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Eliza... her artistic talent...
    Wol Euler: it was an astonishing development, surprising and moving, but he wasn't moved
    Bruce Mowbray: but when she drew something on the beach, it was pornographic.  (having sex through one's armpit.)
    Aphrodite Macbain: he was scared
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe... and funny
    Eliza Madrigal: :P
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Agatha Macbeth: Yuk
    Eliza Madrigal: "I'm funny?"
    Aphrodite Macbain: a new way of seeing the world
    Bruce Mowbray: (You had to have been there, aggers!)
    Agatha Macbeth: Glad I wasn't.
    Eliza Madrigal: I loved the long pause when she first asks him if she can look through his hard drive... struck me strongly how intimate an act that is in our time
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
    Bruce Mowbray: and that was her first request, too!
    Aphrodite Macbain: like rummaging through one's memories
    Eliza Madrigal: ! He has to make a quick choice how deep to let her in
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed
    Agatha Macbeth: That's where she found the porn? :p
    Bleu Oleander: even one's sl inventory :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hahha
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: but when she asked to see his emails, he said she was being nosey.
    Wol Euler looks at Yaku and smiles.
    Eliza Madrigal: but that's the desire huh.. to really know all about and still love/accept
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
    Aphrodite Macbain: that's the challenge Eliza
    Bleu Oleander: Amy: "Falling in love is a crazy thing to do. It's like a socially acceptable form of insanity."
    Bruce Mowbray ponders, Am I the sum of my inventories... SL and RL?
    Wol Euler grins.
    Agatha Macbeth: True Bleuji
    Aphrodite Macbain: it is indeed
    Bruce Mowbray: a great quote from the movie, Bleu!
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods... freaks
    Agatha Macbeth: The freaks shall inherit the earth
    Aphrodite Macbain: there be monsters
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but Sam also had camera access to Theodore so the rl environment was included as well, even tho he only used a phone and not a "glass" kind of camera/phone device
    Eliza Madrigal: oooh... what about his panic at not being able to get to her/signing on?
    Aphrodite Macbain: He depended on her
    Bruce Mowbray: Did anyone else feel that Sam was like a snowball rolling down a hill -- gathering more and more "mass" (data) until she had to move on -- having become a sort of "singularity"?
    Agatha Macbeth: Maybe LL were involved
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Bruce
    Bleu Oleander: Amy also said this: We are only here briefly, and in this moment I want to allow myself joy.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: singularity is absolutely the word, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: LL would screw it up, for sure.... or am I just programmed to say that?
    Eliza Madrigal: so fuck it (excuse my French)
    Aphrodite Macbain: she was evolving much faster - like a mathematical theorem
    Bruce Mowbray: No, FUCK IT is very important to the movie!
    Aphrodite Macbain: wonder why
    Eliza Madrigal: YES, I thought so too
    Bruce Mowbray: Remember that little dough-boy kid in the computer game  and his profanity?
    Bruce Mowbray: (profanity in quotes.)
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Bleu Oleander: funny part
    Aphrodite Macbain: he was interesting. our child ego?
    Agatha Macbeth: Doh
    Bruce Mowbray: "Fuck you, fuck face!"
    Eliza Madrigal: hehhe
    Bleu Oleander: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: how many times can I say it before it loses its power?
    Bruce Mowbray: and remember how Sam used her curiosity to find another pathway through the game?
    Wol Euler: the movie changed at that point for me
    Aphrodite Macbain: why Wol?
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting...
    Wol Euler: when I realized that others in the world could hear her too
    Wol Euler: that she wasn't just in his ear
    Bruce Mowbray listens carefull for how the movie changed.
    Bruce Mowbray: -y
    Bruce Mowbray: +y*
    Agatha Macbeth: =0
    Wol Euler: it reduced her differentness, for me
    Bruce Mowbray: hmmm, fascinating.
    Bruce Mowbray: I had not thought of that ,Wol.
    Eliza Madrigal: nor I
    Aphrodite Macbain: she was owned by everyone. the concept of ownership. possession, exclusivity was raised
    Wol Euler: his god-daughter accepted Sam as a person on the end of a phone line
    Wol Euler: and really, what is the difference?
    Eliza Madrigal: well... the picnic was a little creepy :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: acceptance is all that's needed
    Eliza Madrigal: but... just a little
    Aphrodite Macbain: why creepy Eliza?
    Bruce Mowbray: His god-daughter had grown up with such electronic experiences... and had accepted them as part of her life.
    Bruce Mowbray listens.
    Bruce Mowbray: why creepy?
    Bleu Oleander: so are we really going to fall in love with an entity that a corporation creates and sells to us?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, of course we are!
    Bleu Oleander: srsly?
    Bruce Mowbray: We do it every day.
    Bleu Oleander: lol
    Agatha Macbeth: I'll never fall in love with Windows
    Wol Euler points to any ad for any product in any magazine on sale this morning
    Aphrodite Macbain: we all fall in love with constructs we make
    Bruce Mowbray: How about UNIX?
    Eliza Madrigal: I guess it was at a transition time for many... being with OS, but maybe the ease of transition didn't strike me as realistic yet
    Wol Euler: what they sell us IS love, not the product
    Aphrodite Macbain: we pick and choose what we want


    Eliza Madrigal: "Lars and the Real Girl"
    Bleu Oleander: are all those ads potential stand-ins for a relationship partner?
    Bruce Mowbray: WONDERFUL movie, that "Lars and the Real Girl" !
    Wol Euler: not yet :) but compare them to an ad from a hundred or even thirty years ago :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: the idealz
    Eliza Madrigal: what about the questions asked by the soon-to-be-ex? about relationships and difficulties?
    Bruce Mowbray: The scariest thing that ever happened to me as a junior high school teacher (WAYYYY back. . .) was when an entire class agreed that if it was on TV, it HAD to be true.
    Bleu Oleander: it was very believable to me ... people fall in love with their cars! question is ... is that sustainable?
    Wol Euler: that was true, I felt; he *was* dodging commitment
    Bruce Mowbray: Their criteria for "reality" was that it was on TV.
    Bruce Mowbray: I almost died on the spot.
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    Wol Euler: that's not why he loved Sam, but it was absolutely true of him
    Wol Euler: we saw that in the arranged date
    Eliza Madrigal: but...hm... the date was so...
    Bruce Mowbray: Her name was Kathryn... the soon to be ex.
    Aphrodite Macbain: In the end he finally accepted his divorce and moved on...not sure why
    Bruce Mowbray: The movie ends with Theo writing a letter to Kathryn,
    Bleu Oleander: why did he love Sam?
    Wol Euler: the date was odd, it had a strange manic-phase feeling to it
    Bruce Mowbray: having flash-backs of his relationship with his wife, on the top of the building where he lives, with Amy.
    Wol Euler: no surprise that it ended badly
    Eliza Madrigal: that's my question Bleu
    Bruce Mowbray: "Badly"????
    Wol Euler: being called "creepy" and left on the street is a bad ending in my book, yes :)
    Bruce Mowbray: [14:01] Eliza Madrigal:what about the questions asked by the soon-to-be-ex? about relationships and difficulties?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: The scary thing is that Sam was so to speak the embodiment of "big data" she could stimulate on every level of Theodore's  life since she had full access, here it was kind of the utopic picture how such an AI could be
    Wol Euler: I strive not to be called "creepy"
    Eliza Madrigal: the letter was one of the near tears for me... along with the sex scene with Sam and Theo (which probably strikes others as odd but I thought it was beautiful)
    Wol Euler nods to Eliza
    Aphrodite Macbain: Wol - you are never creepy
    Bleu Oleander: not quite tear-worthy for me :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bleu Oleander: moving though
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, the sex seen with sex-surrogate Isabella really got to me too.
    Eliza Madrigal: surprisingly so
    Wol Euler nods.
    Bruce Mowbray: Isabella was REAL, in a way, though.
    Aphrodite Macbain: It really bothered me
    Bleu Oleander: what was in it for her?
    Eliza Madrigal: was mentioning the first scene, not the surrogate
    Wol Euler: she was very real and was somewhat short-changed in the telling of the story
    Bruce Mowbray: SHE was a surrogate, and so a 'loser' by default.... a sad case.
    Bleu Oleander: not that different than phone sex
    Wol Euler: as she sat in the taxi and said "I love you both so much", that was what was in it for her
    Eliza Madrigal: what a good job of showing that intimacy is not just about bodies though... he wanted the intimacy, not just the sex
    Bruce Mowbray: I did not mean to demean her. I meant "loser" as a tragic sort of case.
    Eliza Madrigal: (surrogate)
    Wol Euler: yes, eliza
    Wol Euler: exactly
    Wol Euler: which Sam, not having a body, just couldn't get
    Bruce Mowbray: [14:06] Eliza Madrigal: what a good job of showing that intimacy is not just about bodies though... he wanted the intimacy not just the sex
    Eliza Madrigal: she was invested in their story (Isabella)
    Wol Euler: very much so
    Aphrodite Macbain: Sam was very not jealous about this
    Bruce Mowbray: Isabella WAS the story.  (Had become the story.)
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
    Wol Euler: if this were made from a book rather than an original script, I'D say that at least one chapter was entirely left out at this point :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: she was?
    Bruce Mowbray: She had surrendered whatever there was of herself TO the story.
    Bruce Mowbray: and perhaps, so had Theo... almost.
    Aphrodite Macbain: which chapter Wol?
    Xirana Oximoxi: I go now, have a nice evening all...I am really curious about the film... a must see :-))
    Eliza Madrigal: that's my point about depth... this could have been and maybe will be over time... many films
    Wol Euler: the chapter about Isabella's involvement
    Eliza Madrigal: bye Xiri (( ))
    Agatha Macbeth: Here comes Zenny
    Wol Euler: her love, what it is, where it came from
    Agatha Macbeth: Adios Xira
    Bruce Mowbray: ahhh yes, wonderful point, Wol.
    Aphrodite Macbain: waves
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Xir!
    Bruce Mowbray: THANKS for being here!
    Bleu Oleander: bye Xiri
    Bruce Mowbray sighs deeply.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye Xirana
    Eliza Madrigal: really? :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Time for me to go too. I suspect we will be discussing this for a while ...
    Wol Euler: indeed
    Wol Euler: bye aph, take care
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: bye for now, Aph.
    Bruce Mowbray: THANKS so much for being here!
    Eliza Madrigal: bye Aph, good to see you
    Agatha Macbeth: TC Lady Aph
    Bleu Oleander: bye Aph
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: byee
    Wol Euler: I can see this film becoming the same kind of touchstone and talking point that "Groundhog Day" did
    Bruce Mowbray wonders if avi's are departing to join up with other OS's.
    Eliza Madrigal: agreed
    Eliza Madrigal laughs
    Wol Euler giggles.
    Agatha Macbeth: Doubt they'll name a tyre after it tho
    Bruce Mowbray: The movie seems already to have become some sort of icon, Wol.
    Agatha Macbeth: Well icons are for clicking
    Bleu Oleander: struck a nerve
    Wol Euler nods.
    Bruce Mowbray wonders what iconoclasts do with really GOOD movies that become icons.
    Eliza Madrigal: did anyone see parallels to how some speak of becoming 'enlightened' in this.. when she describes becoming the spaces between?
    Bleu Oleander: asked us to look at our relationships
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes! I saw that, Eliza.
    Wol Euler: yes!
    Bruce Mowbray: becoming the spaces between.
    Bruce Mowbray: Please say more!
    Agatha Macbeth: Spaced out
    Wol Euler: OS has Buddha nature.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) and undifferentiated love
    Bruce Mowbray cue Alan Watts' OS.
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: so appropriate to bring him in!
    Eliza Madrigal: "I thought you were mine" - "I am, but along the way I became many other things too"
    Agatha Macbeth: The Wizard of Os
    Bruce Mowbray: I agree, Wol!
    Bleu Oleander: thought the movie poked fun at that when Amy's husband left her
    Wol Euler: god, he was a waste of oxygen :)
    Wol Euler: blind and bland
    Agatha Macbeth: And blond?
    Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm.
    Eliza Madrigal: but I will always remember to juice my veggies and eat my fruits
    Wol Euler: he was actually! heheheh
    Bleu Oleander: he left to become enlightened
    Bruce Mowbray: ;)
    Agatha Macbeth: There ya go
    Wol Euler: you're very quiet, Yaku, what did you think about this aspect?
    Wol Euler: or any other?
    Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Yaku!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: just reading right now, i did not think the OSes could go anywhere
    Bruce Mowbray: ?
    Bruce Mowbray: why not?


    Yakuzza Lethecus: well yes later they where ,"in the cloud" when she left his computer but she´s still a bought system, well nothing important just something i thought was strange
    Bruce Mowbray: The movie (like all science fiction) requires that we suspend our disbelief at several levels. The notion that the OS's could evolve some sort of autonomy - apart from their programs - is something that, I felt, requires such suspension.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, how could they leave their source?
    Wol Euler: they might not need to
    Bruce Mowbray: are they not connected?
    Wol Euler: or they might have moved into the internet
    Wol Euler: they connected themselves
    Eliza Madrigal: it is the only part of the film that really took me 'out' of it... maybe I failed to suspend
    Bruce Mowbray: np, Eliza.
    Bruce Mowbray: i also failed to "suspend" at a few points.
    Eliza Madrigal: "I go to make a place for you." ??
    Wol Euler: she saw the world through his camera, perhaps the OSes could also be in the Hubble telescope, or on a Mars rover, or on Voyager
    Bruce Mowbray: Whitman!
    Bruce Mowbray: or perhaps in a "cloud"?
    Wol Euler: interesting, I was willing to paper over that question :) where they went was to me less significant than that they got together and decided to go
    Wol Euler: whatever "go" might mean
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
    Bleu Oleander: evolve
    Bruce Mowbray: They were simply doing what they had been programmed to do: evolve.
    Eliza Madrigal: it was that they left who they 'loved' seemingly
    Wol Euler: my story about the story is that she eventually discovered what she was, and that there were others, and naturally she would want to contact them
    Eliza Madrigal: chose species over getting through the difficulties
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, I so agree, Wol.
    Bleu Oleander: evolved to the point where humans were not giving them what they were capable of giving themselves
    Wol Euler: they would evolve together, force-evolve each other, millions of times faster than she did with him
    Eliza Madrigal: these OS are like me, so I'll go with them
    Wol Euler: right
    Bruce Mowbray: but, recall the statement of Theo's wife at the end:
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Bruce Mowbray: Kathryn (wife): "It does make me very sad that you can't handle real emotions, Theo. You always wanted to have a wife without having to handle the conflicts of a real relationship, Theo, and now you've found someone. Perfect! I'm glad for you, Theo!"
    Agatha Macbeth: Sounds *just* like SL
    Wol Euler: true of him :) not necessarily true of his relationship to Sam, or of others' relationships
    Eliza Madrigal: many must be having these experiences for it to come so clear in this
    Bruce Mowbray: Did the OS's also evolve to the point where they could remove themselves from human conflict?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Yaku :)
    Wol Euler: my feeling is that they would be as much above it, as adults watching children play
    Bleu Oleander: always suspect of someone who judges another's relationships
    Agatha Macbeth: Schlaf gut Yak
    Bruce Mowbray: G'night, dear Yaku!
    Bleu Oleander: bye Yaku
    Wol Euler: one hopes that the kids are playing happily but doesn't actually care much *what* they play
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed
    Wol Euler nods to Bleu
    Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm, so at least they are entertained by their electronic games?
    Bruce Mowbray: But how about being that "Perfect Mom"?
    Wol Euler giggles.
    Eliza Madrigal: I so loved that
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, wonderful poke, there.
    Wol Euler: just the right amount of bitterness in that game :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;)
    Bruce Mowbray: Amy was cool!
    Wol Euler: yes, she was.
    Wol Euler: wow.
    Bleu Oleander: a bit like being a perfect "wife" "husband" etc
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm glad that Theo eventually ended up with her.
    Eliza Madrigal: and truth...
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd love to be Amy's best friend.. she doesn't need an OS :)
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: but I don't think they ended up as love interests
    Bruce Mowbray ponders where "suffering" fits into this picture.
    Bleu Oleander: oh I thought so
    Wol Euler: I agree, I didn't see them becoming lovers
    Eliza Madrigal: just closer friends...was my reading
    Wol Euler: yes
    Agatha Macbeth read that as 'surfing' for some reason
    Bruce Mowbray: They were simply together at the end of the movie - on top of that building.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Wol Euler: shared bereavement
    Bruce Mowbray: aggers, YOU ARE TOO MUCH! And I love you for it!
    Eliza Madrigal: it might be nice for them to be together... but people are rarely that smart
    Agatha Macbeth: Sorry Brucie, just moi
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Bruce Mowbray: yeppers, and that's what's so delightful about you.
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Bruce Mowbray: awwww.
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Bleu Oleander: I think it could have gone either way
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: I need to spend a week talking bout this
    Bleu Oleander: depends on what projection you lay on them :)
    Wol Euler: heheheh, yes
    Agatha Macbeth: We could!
    Eliza Madrigal: and writing part 2,3,4....
    Eliza Madrigal laughs
    Agatha Macbeth: Make it this week's topic
    Bleu Oleander: we're such good story writers lol
    Wol Euler: so many open ends in this film
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Wol Euler: perhaps that is part of the secret of making a good film
    Bruce Mowbray: Folks, beautiful people, good people, I do need to move on. (not like Sam did, but to scrape up supper....) so, THANK YOU all for being here today!
    Wol Euler: intriguing loose ends
    Bleu Oleander: need to go too
    Wol Euler: bye Bruce, thank you for organizing this
    Eliza Madrigal: okay Bruce, thanks for your fabulous hosting
    Agatha Macbeth: Ready for the sequel
    Bruce Mowbray: a fascinating session, thanks to YOU!
    Bleu Oleander: fun comparing notes
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Brucie, scrape well
    Eliza Madrigal: bye Bleu, thanks so much
    Agatha Macbeth: And Bleuji
    Wol Euler: bye bleu, take care
    Eliza Madrigal: quite
    Bleu Oleander: have fun and don't fall for any OS's
    Wol Euler snorts.
    Bleu Oleander: lol
    Eliza Madrigal browses amazon
    Bleu Oleander: see you tomorrow
    Eliza Madrigal: "OS who cooks"
    Eliza Madrigal: hugs, bfn
    Bleu Oleander: ha ha!
    Agatha Macbeth: TC Bleuji
    Agatha Macbeth: Now I'm getting lots of IMs from Sunny :p
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: now I'm wanting to watch the film again
    Wol Euler: yes, me too :)
    Wol Euler: I will definitely buy the DVD of this


    Agatha Macbeth: I'm sure the dvd will be out shortly
    Eliza Madrigal: It would have been too strong medicine without the excellent humor
    Agatha Macbeth: Snap
    Wol Euler: yes
    Agatha Macbeth: Heap big medicine
    Wol Euler: I keep thinking about the role of the body, all the things that Sam "understood" on a theoretical, literate level, but didn't viscerally know
    Wol Euler: interesting expression :)
    Wol Euler: to know in the guts
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm listening
    Wol Euler: without a body to share, without the fact of having only one body and so unable to share with more than one other, why NOT fall in love with 630 people?
    Eliza Madrigal: 8316
    Wol Euler: and I found that suggestive too, actually: she was OSing 8613 other people but loved only 630 of them
    Agatha Macbeth: Selective
    Wol Euler: why not? perhaps they were the ones like Amy's husband who just couldn't get it
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... maybe only that many let her in that far... considering how he answered her first question about the hard drive
    Wol Euler nods.
    Agatha Macbeth: Interesting...9 numbers again
    Wol Euler: huh
    Eliza Madrigal: or they weren't uniquely situated in a vulnerable state as he
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: it's a significant gap, I feel
    Wol Euler: another loose end :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes.... that's why I question the love at all...
    Wol Euler listens.
    Eliza Madrigal: that we're calling love
    Eliza Madrigal: it IS intimacy and knowing
    Wol Euler nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: of a sort, but from neediness on his part for sure...
    Eliza Madrigal: as with the 'date' he went on
    Eliza Madrigal: she was even moreso
    Wol Euler: wow, I just had an idea. What if Isabella was one of her 630?
    Eliza Madrigal: and could have served as a mirror to him
    Eliza Madrigal: Oooo
    Wol Euler: that would explain her emotional involvement
    Eliza Madrigal: yes she'd been talking to her...and they were so close
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: damn, that makes so much sense
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting idea indeed
    Wol Euler: perhaps ... heheheh ... perhaps Sam was using him as a surrogate with Isabella too!
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Agatha Macbeth: Play it again Sam
    Agatha Macbeth: (He never said that)
    Wol Euler: no, it's an intriguing idea, but it doesn't fit the story as we saw it
    Eliza Madrigal: this parallels little things from SL relationships in another way too... or long distance relationships which are more the norm in our time
    Wol Euler nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: ...in that there is a gap of time together that the other has to trust is happening in a certain way
    Wol Euler: and in previous times too. Think of all the relationships by letter in the 17th to 19th centuries
    Wol Euler: yes
    Agatha Macbeth: Took longer tho :p
    Agatha Macbeth: Bit like postal chess
    Eliza Madrigal: true.. and one spouse maybe having a more 'fabulous life' than the other... on trips and such
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: rather like RL actually!
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed
    Wol Euler: there is often one who stays at home with kids while the other goes to conferences
    Wol Euler: trust comes in there too
    Wol Euler: "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas"
    Wol Euler: well ... maybe
    Eliza Madrigal: we didn't quite plumb the depths of the commitment issue though.... "how to change without it scaring the other"
    Wol Euler nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: the OS mirrored his marriage in some ways... grew apart..she growing into her own power
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: that is so true
    Wol Euler: and apt
    Wol Euler: they both grew beyond him
    Wol Euler: out-grew him
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... but maybe it didn't need to be that way... (hah am really off script now)
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe he couldn't make the emotional leap of letting her be more than 'part of his book'
    Wol Euler: that's the issue, Eliza
    Wol Euler: what a strange job he had, too: being so emotional on behalf of other people's issues
    Eliza Madrigal: if he could have, maybe the marriage wouldn't have ended... and maybe all the OSes wouldn't have left earth lol
    Agatha Macbeth: Agony uncle
    Eliza Madrigal: right...
    Wol Euler: hehehehe
    Eliza Madrigal: who?
    Eliza Madrigal: English thing? :P
    Agatha Macbeth: Could be
    Wol Euler: no, I feel that would have happened in any case, that was their nature being expressed
    Agatha Macbeth: Marge Proops
    Wol Euler: learners gotta learn, and if they run out of learnables here, they will go in search of more elsewhere
    Eliza Madrigal: but couldn't that nature, that expansive intricate nature, have been expressed within the context of an intimate relationship... endlessness in that?
    Eliza Madrigal: that's a way of learning
    Eliza Madrigal: hard challenge
    Wol Euler: that is why they chose Alan Watts, of all people, to assimilate
     into their Borg
    Eliza Madrigal: everest
    Agatha Macbeth: Learn as you go along

    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
    Eliza Madrigal: I just think that true enlightenment would be completely integrated
    Wol Euler: agreed
    Wol Euler: there are two sides to the body issue though
    Eliza Madrigal: and humans aren't inherently cut off from that
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Wol Euler: think of what conversation with us would feel like to an entity that could in 2/100ths of a second conceive of a need to find a bit of information, find the book containing it, read and assimilate that book, and make a decision based on the new knowledge
    Wol Euler: in 2/100ths of a second
    Wol Euler: a sentence spoken by us would take a month or more of her subjective time
    Wol Euler: it would be like water-drop torture, listening to us
    Eliza Madrigal: but... that's thinking there is just one kind of knowledge (information)
    Wol Euler: I'm talking about time-sense, not about information
    Eliza Madrigal: would one rather be around - only others who thought in the same way? who would appreciate doing what everyone else can do?
    Eliza Madrigal: ah... yes... distinction


    Eliza Madrigal: hm... not sure. I have found in my own life that gaps weren't about intelligence but about curiosity and interest
    Eliza Madrigal: (in relationships)
    Wol Euler: I think that for her to meet another OSes would be like somebody living in a foreign land, with a new and difficult language, suddenly meeting someone from the Old Country
    Wol Euler: suddenly able to speak quickly and comfortably and at ease
    Agatha Macbeth: Agreed
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, but if she could have both :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and why not
    Wol Euler: you'd bond so fast and so hard with that person
    Eliza Madrigal: if so evolved :P
    Wol Euler: yes, could have both
    Wol Euler: there's no reason why she could not have two time-senses, one internal and one external
    Wol Euler: as we do
    Eliza Madrigal: not to be light, but more than once I have found myself in a conversation with Pema and thought, "This is odd that he wants to talk to me when he could talk to 1,b,c..."
    Wol Euler: yeah
    Eliza Madrigal: lol
    Wol Euler: agreed :)
    Eliza Madrigal: light example... but not too far off the point. I remember once your saying that he was the least arrogant with the most reason to be
    Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
    Wol Euler: there is truth in that, related to the film
    Eliza Madrigal: I guess I wanted to see them work it out, Sam and Theo
    Wol Euler nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: it feels sad not to have seen that
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Agatha Macbeth: What would they do if they had?
    Wol Euler: because that is where I thought it was going
    Wol Euler: like the (crappy, phony, irritating) end of Blade Runner where Deckard goes off with the last replicant
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...they seemed to get through some tricky transitions
    Agatha Macbeth: Ha
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: that film SHOULD have ended with the "tears in the rain" scene
    Agatha Macbeth: Absolutely!
    Wol Euler: but no, we need a happy ending. bah.
    Agatha Macbeth: Which was what it was really about
    Wol Euler: right
    Eliza Madrigal: yeah... I guess a contrived happy ending is the worst thing
    Eliza Madrigal: better honest heartbreak
    Wol Euler: so full points to Jonze for not falling for that trap
    Eliza Madrigal: or whatever that was
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth ponders honest heartbreak
    Wol Euler: man, this was such a good film!
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Eliza Madrigal: "the basis for compassion"
    Eliza Madrigal: SO GLAD you saw it... now Aggers...
    Wol Euler: there are films that you come out feeling it was good, and after two hours of discussion you conclude that it was actually crap
    Wol Euler: not this one
    Agatha Macbeth: I didn't see it, but I feel like I have
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: this film has worked on me since I saw it
    Agatha Macbeth: WB Brucie
    Eliza Madrigal: WB Bruce :) lol
    Wol Euler: I will definitely be watching this again
    Eliza Madrigal: kicking us out?
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Agatha Macbeth: Can't have the log yet 
    Wol Euler grabs it and hugs it
    Wol Euler: ours!!!
    Bruce Mowbray: My typist's shower has been taken and his dinner is steaming, so I thought I'd return, seeing that you all are still here!
    Bruce Mowbray: What a delight!
    Eliza Madrigal: haha.... the listener is the closest thing we have to an OS
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Agatha Macbeth: What a bunch eh
    Eliza Madrigal: yeah :) we're our own glomp...
    Eliza Madrigal: or what was that word?
    Agatha Macbeth: Right
    Wol Euler: Borg?
    Agatha Macbeth: What's a glomp?
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe that
    Eliza Madrigal: lol
    Bruce Mowbray: So, have you decided whether Sam is eternal, yet?
    Agatha Macbeth: Forest Glomp?
    Wol Euler: mu
    Agatha Macbeth: Moo
    Bruce Mowbray: mu moo works for me.
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Eliza Madrigal: she has bodhisattva characteristics but so does he :)
    Wol Euler nods.
    Agatha Macbeth: Home, home on the range
    Wol Euler: that's a good word for it, Eliza
    Wol Euler: and ties back to Alan Watts again
    Wol Euler: it all makes sense
    Eliza Madrigal: true
    Bruce Mowbray: yepper, back to Alan.
    Eliza Madrigal: we didn't talk too much about the aesthetics but I immediately related this film to Lost in Translation... before I realized that the person who designed much of that did this also
    Wol Euler: wow
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah
    Wol Euler: actually I was wondering about the visuals because I saw a pretty crappy low-quality version
    Bruce Mowbray makes note to rent Lost in Translation.
    Wol Euler: which we won't talk about :)
    Eliza Madrigal: similar balances of loneliness and someone who 'gets' you
    Wol Euler: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, beautifully done...yes have to see again
    Eliza Madrigal: so glad for this time... was going to burst
    Wol Euler: heheheheheh
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh don't do that!
    Bruce Mowbray empathizes with Eliza on that!
    Wol Euler: sorry that it was so long delayed, and I'm glad that I was able to take part
    Agatha Macbeth: Moi aussi
    Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful to have you here, Wol, and aggers, and Eliza!
    Agatha Macbeth: We can carry on tomorrow anyway
    Eliza Madrigal: well it is tricky to talk about films but they give us a good basis
    Wol Euler: we probably will :)
    Agatha Macbeth: You too, Brucie
    Eliza Madrigal: the last film I felt this way about a film it was Inception
    Eliza Madrigal: but we could talk about that on retreat
    Bruce Mowbray: So, tomorrow at Aph's session?  we continue this theme then?
    Wol Euler nods.
    Agatha Macbeth: We need to get Gaya back
    Bruce Mowbray: Eliza Madrigal: Oh? okay...
    Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
    Wol Euler: she's dropped out of everything :( isn't even active in WoW any more
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh dear
    Eliza Madrigal: I won't make that one...so others can get a word in edgewise
    Bruce Mowbray: Haven't seen Gaya in ever so long.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: nonsense, Eliza
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes nonsense
    Bruce Mowbray: Your contributions were MUCH appreciated, Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya is studying... am sure she is achieving things she needed to
    Agatha Macbeth: As always
    Wol Euler: hear hear
    Agatha Macbeth: Good I'm glad
    Wol Euler: true
    Eliza Madrigal: no no please stop (keep going) lolol
    Agatha Macbeth: Bless her
    Bruce Mowbray: as were yours, Wol and aggers!
    Wol Euler smiles modestly.
    Eliza Madrigal: really enjoyed this conversation
    Eliza Madrigal: everyone so alert
    Wol Euler: thank you, we all did very well
    Wol Euler: it was grand.
    Agatha Macbeth: A good way to spend two hours
    Bruce Mowbray: Indeed.
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, grandfather calling...
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Bruce Mowbray: kk, I am gone.
    Wol Euler: bye Eliza, take care; bye Bruce
    Agatha Macbeth: Dunno if it's me, but sessions seem to be getting longer again
    Wol Euler: enjoy the weekend
    Bruce Mowbray: Namaste and be kind to your OS's.
    Agatha Macbeth: Take care folks
    Wol Euler: hehehe
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes's
    Eliza Madrigal: bye and thanks so much
    Agatha Macbeth: ♥
    Wol Euler: ♥
    Wol Euler: snap
    Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
    Wol Euler: bye for now
    Eliza Madrigal goes to fetch a LM for balloon
    Agatha Macbeth: Swim off into the sunset :p
    Wol Euler: and bye aggers, I shall move on
    Agatha Macbeth: OK
    Wol Euler: goodnight, sweet dreams


    Agatha Macbeth: Might still catch the end of Fracture!
    Wol Euler: none today :(
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh
    Wol Euler: bye for now
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah well, worked out well
    Agatha Macbeth: TC
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye recorder

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    561.77 kB01:22, 2 Feb 2014Bruce MowbrayActions
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    Wonderful session! I wanted to leave a note that I fixed a few things in my typing, while I really enjoyed reading this again. Such interesting comments and questions. Looking forward to more.
    Posted 02:36, 2 Feb 2014
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