2014.03.16 19:00 - We're in trouble now, call in Reason ... wait, was that WHY we're in trouble?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Cal
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.spiritscienceandmetaphysics.com/scientists-claim-that-quantum-theory-proves-consciousness-moves-to-another-universe-at-death/
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, long time no see :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, sundays sometiems turn into prep for Monday
    stevenaia Michinaga: good to see you

    stevenaia Michinaga: My saturday sessions are not well attended since I took the 7:00 PM session
    stevenaia Michinaga: so I thought I'd visit others :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Aph
    Calvino Rabeni: this one has been pretty light too for a while
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi. good evening!
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Aphrodite :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: how are things?
    stevenaia Michinaga: greetings Druth
    druth Vlodovic: hey
    Aphrodite Macbain: brb
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was just listening to a talk on th nature of the universe, and possibly t he nature of reality, maybe our job is done :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi druth :)
    druth Vlodovic: oh?
    druth Vlodovic: what is the answer?
    Calvino Rabeni flinches
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.spiritscienceandmetaphysi...erse-at-death/
    Calvino Rabeni: if you say the answer, the whole thing will stop :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    druth Vlodovic: like the name of gawd :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Thats why they made it so hard to do
    Calvino Rabeni: It's dangerous enough to consider what's the meaning of meaning :)
    druth Vlodovic: sigh "quantum theory, therefore god"
    stevenaia Michinaga: some things loose their definition when defined, words don;t creat completeness
    druth Vlodovic: though i guess i should actually read it before declaring myself lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: a human defect
    Aphrodite Macbain: bk
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb
    druth Vlodovic: grokking things is good, but difficult to apply
    Aphrodite Macbain: Reading.... OMG!
    Aphrodite Macbain: a new chapter in the discussion of consciousness!
    stevenaia Michinaga: about time
    Aphrodite Macbain: :/
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think there's a pun in there somewhere
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder whether it also says something about the nature of self
    Aphrodite Macbain: where is the "I"?
    stevenaia Michinaga: we make the construction that we are all part of
    Aphrodite Macbain: according to neuroscientists it is constantly being reconstructed every second
    Calvino Rabeni: I had a math teacher way back in high school who taught the essence of logic as a pun ... very influential in my possibly warped sense of meaning
    druth Vlodovic: what was the pun?
    Aphrodite Macbain: waits for the shoe to drop
    stevenaia Michinaga: but according to this guy, we continue after the body ceases
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- that's what plato thought too
    Aphrodite Macbain: we are not what we were 10 minutes ago
    Calvino Rabeni: Can I put in an order to be MORE different than I was 10 minutes ago? :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: how would you like that Cal?
    stevenaia Michinaga: medium well?

    Calvino Rabeni: well, the logic teacher said

    I can PROVE that your algebra book is a lazy dog
    because a book is made of pages
    each page is an ink lined plane
    an inclined plane is a slope up
    and a slow pup is a lazy dog
    QED (he said with a flourish)

    Aphrodite Macbain: I would wait and watch and buy some dog food
    druth Vlodovic: you can certainly chose to believe that you are, cal :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: koans!
    druth Vlodovic: lol

    Aphrodite Macbain scratches her head
    druth Vlodovic: words define reality only if you fail to check back with reality after
    Aphrodite Macbain: a declined plan is a slope down...that's my inclination
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) druth
    druth Vlodovic: depends on the plan
    Aphrodite Macbain: plane :-)
    druth Vlodovic: ah, I liked the original better :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: ponders, is the nature of the universe also the nature of reality
    druth Vlodovic: declined plans rarely make life richer
    Calvino Rabeni: oops ... need to AFK for a bit, sorry, reality has another branch and im getting spread a bit thin
    druth Vlodovic: have fun cal
    Aphrodite Macbain: I would like to decline your plan as I am not inclined to do so
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    druth Vlodovic: depends on how you define "universe"
    Aphrodite Macbain: looks around for the universe, and seeing none, relaxes
    stevenaia Michinaga: Aph, your mic is on
    Aphrodite Macbain: sorry. thanks
    druth Vlodovic: Lanza points to the structure of the universe itself, and that the laws, forces, and constants of the universe appear to be fine-tuned for life, implying intelligence existed prior to matter.
    druth Vlodovic: sigh,I wish this were a philosophy forum
    druth Vlodovic: stuff like this is depressingly easy to shoot down
    Aphrodite Macbain: why does it imply that druth?
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah - divine prime mover
    druth Vlodovic: if the constants of the universe were different then some other form of thingy would be marveling at how precise they are for the current reality
    stevenaia Michinaga: depending on your definition of each they either could or couldn't be the same. Remove "I" and they are the same
    druth Vlodovic: ??
    Aphrodite Macbain: the subjective I?
    stevenaia Michinaga: ... the natuer of reality and the nature of the Universe
    Aphrodite Macbain: the universe hasn't change- only we have
    Aphrodite Macbain: although what we are discussing was the subject of discussion 500 years ago
    Aphrodite Macbain: Deductive reasoning isn;t enough
    druth Vlodovic: I remember reading a comic where someone had ust gone back in time, the two guys were standing there discussing what changes might be made to reality as a result,each panel everything changed including the people,but the conversation remained unaffected
    Aphrodite Macbain: we need to see it &measure it
    stevenaia Michinaga: new ideas take quite a while to "sink in" as the I usually stands in the way of change
    Aphrodite Macbain: perfect druth- my point exactly
    druth Vlodovic: I suspect the stability of the universe comes from the same fallacy as the stability of self
    druth Vlodovic: we simply don't notice the constant changes since we are in them and affected fundamentally by them
    stevenaia Michinaga: you see stability out there?
    stevenaia Michinaga: aww
    Aphrodite Macbain: with neurosciewnce we can learn things about the human mind that we never knew before. All Descartes and Hume had was intelligence and logical guesswork
    stevenaia Michinaga: we swim in the universe so we don;t see it
    Aphrodite Macbain: we can look at the elements of the universe though
    Aphrodite Macbain: it is happening all the time
    stevenaia Michinaga: but you can't see time and conciousness
    Aphrodite Macbain: and discoveries are constantly being made
    Aphrodite Macbain: no, not that
    Aphrodite Macbain: but we can measure time
    Aphrodite Macbain: not eerything is accessible to the senses
    druth Vlodovic: I am suspicious of absolutes, their main utility seems to be to stand as a challenge to the bold
    Aphrodite Macbain: Now we can slow things down with time lapse photograph and see things we couldnt see before
    druth Vlodovic: or curious
    stevenaia Michinaga: to kick out the feet of other absolutes
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: absolutes beg to be kicked down
    stevenaia Michinaga: unless they are yours
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: Absolut is a vodka - that's where it should stay
    stevenaia Michinaga: should never stay in the bottle!
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: ...kick

    druth Vlodovic: I long ago made a habit of stating absolutes I didn't really believe in, so i could enjoy watching paper tigers fall
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
    druth Vlodovic: but it gets to be a mindset
    druth Vlodovic: and i get confused when I meet someone whi geniunely believe that you "need to believe in something"
    druth Vlodovic: or that their is a "right way"
    druth Vlodovic: and I wonder about that confusion
    stevenaia Michinaga: the need for ideas to remain static is important to some
    stevenaia Michinaga: feels the clutching
    druth Vlodovic: "something to believe in"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I've found their certainty usually comes down to a "lazy dog" argument
    Aphrodite Macbain: clutching onto meaning is a normal human emotion I think
    druth Vlodovic: lol, took courage to write the some "I need somebody to love" ad though the feeling is important and the subject isn't
    stevenaia Michinaga: but it closes off new things
    Aphrodite Macbain: there is a fear that things will fall apart if they let go
    stevenaia Michinaga: but, they never do
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm sure we have all felt that occasionally
    stevenaia Michinaga: but they never do, it jsut seems that it may
    Aphrodite Macbain: I remember when I realized there was no god, I was sad and miserable for weeks
    Calvino Rabeni: :(
    druth Vlodovic: lucky,took me years
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: what brought you to that realization
    Calvino Rabeni: would by that token I be happy and joyous if I come to the realization there is god?
    Aphrodite Macbain: well, we often replace it with another god
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think it was a friend of mine Stevenaia
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: who challenged my beliefs
    Aphrodite Macbain: and made me think about them in a new way
    Aphrodite Macbain: It really shook me
    Aphrodite Macbain: and then there was no going back...
    Calvino Rabeni: I feel a bit deprived, never having had that to lose
    stevenaia Michinaga: moving forward is a good thing
    Aphrodite Macbain: hard to live with a mother who made me go to church while I lived at home...
    Aphrodite Macbain: Cal. !! That is so odd. Why?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Why wish for an experiene yoou didn't need?
    Calvino Rabeni: well, better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all ... same logic applied to god
    druth Vlodovic: religion is inherent to the human mechanism, the test if you have it is if you feel BETRAYED by something when it doesn't turn out as expected
    Aphrodite Macbain: better to have believed and stopped believing?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods at drith
    Aphrodite Macbain: u
    Aphrodite Macbain: but there is no one upon whom to take out your anger
    druth Vlodovic: losing religion is a part of growing up,since our first gods are our parents lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh no!
    Aphrodite Macbain: that's the one
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- for me it was just my mother
    stevenaia Michinaga: does she accept that you see things differently now?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wish I had come to realize it by myself rather than being told by someone else that my beliefs were silly
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: not really Stevenaia
    Aphrodite Macbain: She is still a strong believer- mindlessly so
    druth Vlodovic: embarrassment is rarely fatal,and often informative
    Aphrodite Macbain: I often wonder why so many intelligent philosophers believed in god and a soul
    Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps they couldn;t face the emptiness
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think prison may have influenced some of them
    Aphrodite Macbain: ?

    stevenaia Michinaga: if you profess that you did not believe, some were put in prison
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah
    Aphrodite Macbain: I have to go now
    Calvino Rabeni: be well, fly free :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) thanks
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Aph, I have a dance date
    druth Vlodovic: have fun aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: giggles
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'll try
    druth Vlodovic: belief in a soul is hard toshake
    stevenaia Michinaga: good seeing you again, Cal, Druth
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods and smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: nods yes stevenaia same :)
    druth Vlodovic: but just try imagining all the necessary effects if you did have one
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/court-hears-atheists-challenge-to-ground-zero-cross/2014/03/06/3d7944e6-a575-11e3-b865-38b254d92063_story.html
    druth Vlodovic: this is the way we test hypothesis, "if this is true then what can we extrapolate"
    druth Vlodovic: the results make for good sci-fi, but bad fit to observation
    Calvino Rabeni: nods, it's a game of going out on a limb :)
    druth Vlodovic: I used to think this was silly
    Calvino Rabeni: which, exactly?
    druth Vlodovic: but then i remember how angry I got when the priest used my mothers death to advertise his cult
    druth Vlodovic: objecting to religious symbols at important places
    druth Vlodovic: it wasn'tsupposed to be about generating fear of evil dieties
    druth Vlodovic: it was supposed to be about my mother
    druth Vlodovic: sigh
    Calvino Rabeni: You had some expectation of rights to private moral ground, he crossed a boundary
    Calvino Rabeni: so I imagine you felt "used"
    druth Vlodovic: it was bald coercive advertising
    druth Vlodovic: and opportunism riding on grief
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, it sounds exploitive
    Calvino Rabeni: if it had been an open public event with a broad purpose, you would likely felt different I think
    druth Vlodovic: well
    Calvino Rabeni: but it was in bad taste
    druth Vlodovic: just think
    druth Vlodovic: if at ground zero instead of a cross they put up a billboard for life insurance
    druth Vlodovic: maybe a kiosk and some people selling policies
    Calvino Rabeni: that would have been acceptable to the atheists I think
    druth Vlodovic: no
    druth Vlodovic: it is the same thing
    druth Vlodovic: the area and event is significant on a human scale
    druth Vlodovic: using it for profit
    druth Vlodovic: well
    druth Vlodovic: I'm no objectivist lol
    druth Vlodovic: but I guess most priests are
    druth Vlodovic: "do whatever you can to get whatever you can get"
    Calvino Rabeni: commerce seems to be held to different standards than religion
    druth Vlodovic: never count the cost to others
    druth Vlodovic: religion is commerce
    Calvino Rabeni: are they identical?
    druth Vlodovic: commerce is the purpose
    druth Vlodovic: religion is the method
    druth Vlodovic: well, commerce and influence, if there is a difference
    Calvino Rabeni: no difference but the "brand"?
    druth Vlodovic: yes
    druth Vlodovic: if the profits are shared then you have family,clan, country etc
    druth Vlodovic: but soon the profits start to be taken by those who can
    druth Vlodovic: and are no longer shared
    druth Vlodovic: I'm starting to sound like Marx :)
    Calvino Rabeni: speaking of whom
    Calvino Rabeni: Why is it that academics often take a moral stance as if they were guardians of individual freedom over against an oppressive state, but at the same time are elitists that disdain community building
    Calvino Rabeni: whether of liberal or conservative variety
    druth Vlodovic: a few overly broad generalities there
    Calvino Rabeni: doesn't that just make individuals more vulnerable to the oppression of economic interests, if not the state itself?
    druth Vlodovic: likely some are based on the feeling of "they are better than us"

    Calvino Rabeni: It's a great stereotype, if a bit broad. But it does end up seeming like advocacy by proxy, maybe a symbolic position more than an effective one
    druth Vlodovic: lets assume some specific situations and keepin mind that we are ignoring the majority of cases
    druth Vlodovic: I have one unit of person power
    druth Vlodovic: you have one unit of person power
    druth Vlodovic: if we work together we have two
    Calvino Rabeni: a bit like a dictatorship of the proletariat needing to be run by an elite committee because the masses aren't considered intelligent enough to handle counter-revolution
    druth Vlodovic: "community building"if often a way of getting several person-powers to work together
    druth Vlodovic: well,it starts asorganization
    Calvino Rabeni: if individuals coordinate, they have more power, for a posible tradeoff of peer control or groupthink, but overall it's easy to see it can be worth it
    druth Vlodovic: a person against both the state and community building is ignoring the differences that scale makes to an endevour
    druth Vlodovic: both state and community direct your person-power
    druth Vlodovic: ie, they rob you of it
    Calvino Rabeni: the alternative is to be subject to a divide-and-conquer strategy by the powers
    druth Vlodovic: so you have the balance between gathering together for defence and losing to the enemy within
    Calvino Rabeni: it strikes me, there's a simplistic formula at work in the academic stereotype I mentioned, that equates populism with fascism
    Calvino Rabeni: but it doesn't account for liberative associations
    druth Vlodovic: "stereotype" and "simplistic formula" I tend to agree :)
    druth Vlodovic: also known as an "heuristic"
    Calvino Rabeni: a stereotype is a selective filter about some phenomenon to examine
    druth Vlodovic: which utilizes simplistic formulas
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    druth Vlodovic: populism is the surrender of selfto the collective
    druth Vlodovic: so is socialism
    druth Vlodovic: communism
    druth Vlodovic: fascism
    Calvino Rabeni: like looking at things that rise rather than fall, or vice versa
    druth Vlodovic: religionism
    druth Vlodovic: etceteraism
    Calvino Rabeni: that's the definition, but I don't really believe it
    druth Vlodovic: a matter of degree
    Calvino Rabeni: do you think e.g. the Occupy movement results in more or less surrender of self?
    Calvino Rabeni: it is an organized rebellion
    Calvino Rabeni: and does it create more or less "individualism"?
    druth Vlodovic: in order to be part you must surrender part of your self,or your power
    druth Vlodovic: well, less, of course
    Calvino Rabeni: possibly for a net gain of power
    Calvino Rabeni: I can't see it as less
    druth Vlodovic: just like having a union gives a worker less power
    druth Vlodovic: why?
    druth Vlodovic: because the union also has rules and demands
    druth Vlodovic: but to defend against the boss
    Calvino Rabeni: so a maximally isolated individual is more powerful than one with social connections and cooperative support?
    druth Vlodovic: you need the collective power of your co-workers
    druth Vlodovic: not at all
    druth Vlodovic: but a maximally isolated individual is more free to act
    Calvino Rabeni: but less powerful, and less effective
    druth Vlodovic: but still has only one unit of person-power
    druth Vlodovic: depends on what you wish to accomplish
    Calvino Rabeni: so not necessarily more "free" to accomplish something
    druth Vlodovic: imagine a sociopath
    druth Vlodovic: why a special name for a person who doesn't consider the needs of society of others
    druth Vlodovic: in a culture of "the self first!"
    Calvino Rabeni: because its a matter of degree
    druth Vlodovic: the logical extension of our cultural meme is that we should all be sociopaths
    Calvino Rabeni: and those individuals are seen to go too far
    druth Vlodovic: back to balance again
    Calvino Rabeni: true, but logic extension doesn't apply in the social world
    druth Vlodovic: it is a fun game to play in any world
    Calvino Rabeni: there is hardly any characteristic not held within some acceptable range
    druth Vlodovic: and important to play
    Calvino Rabeni: sure
    druth Vlodovic: when perestroika happened they made an interesting modification to voting rules
    druth Vlodovic: if you get less than %50 of the vote you lose
    druth Vlodovic: even if you run against nobody
    Calvino Rabeni: makes a certain sense
    druth Vlodovic: in Canada if you are running against nobody the vote is just a formality
    Calvino Rabeni: from the point of view of the voters
    druth Vlodovic: sobecause they started without democracy they took it to the next logical extension
    druth Vlodovic: I went to a yard sale and the girl running it allowed as much as you could stuff in a bag for a set price

    druth Vlodovic: this worked fine until somebody unfamiliar with the canadian version of "reasonable" started stuffing a bag
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: the social context is often invisible but present
    Calvino Rabeni: common sense
    druth Vlodovic: aka balance
    druth Vlodovic: or fulcrum maybe
    druth Vlodovic: the place where we seek balance from,even if we fail to achieve it
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: then along comes some wiseacre who plays games with logic, like kids like to do
    druth Vlodovic: so where do you seek to place you fulcrum on the question of freedom versus collectivism?
    druth Vlodovic: lol,why six year olds are such sh**s
    druth Vlodovic: they seek to know where to place the fulcrum
    Calvino Rabeni: i see it as a false dichotomy, a logical definition that doesn't act that way in practice
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah 6 year olds seek POWER through cleverness and exult in it
    druth Vlodovic: I see it as a sliding scale,but one whose framework is subject to hijacking
    Calvino Rabeni: learning to game the system,
    druth Vlodovic: they also seek to find limits
    Calvino Rabeni: practicing their sociopathy
    Calvino Rabeni: just taking it out for a spin, going out on a limb to see how strong the limb is
    druth Vlodovic: discipline a child properly and they are much happier than if they "get away with it" all the time
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    druth Vlodovic: the basis of religion imho
    Calvino Rabeni: but they're better off for having tested it
    druth Vlodovic: of course
    Calvino Rabeni: like william blake wrote, you can't know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough
    druth Vlodovic: "the basis of the tendency towards religion in human beings imho"
    Calvino Rabeni: (Proverbs of heaven and hell)
    druth Vlodovic: it is how you find god
    druth Vlodovic: he is the one who stops you short
    druth Vlodovic: at just the right point
    Calvino Rabeni: I think religion is more about staying out of trouble during the natural seeking for transcendence
    Calvino Rabeni: so god becons, religion is what says .. not so fast!
    Calvino Rabeni: its easier to think about with children
    druth Vlodovic: sigh,I was trying to find a clip from a show called "fate/zero"
    Calvino Rabeni: when a child is being a s**t, do you think they are thinking "hey I am going to be a s**t, that's my intention"?
    druth Vlodovic: when a ressurrected bluebeard complains that for allhis evil in life god did nothing
    Calvino Rabeni: and same with adults ... mostly ...
    druth Vlodovic: and is he pissed about it!
    druth Vlodovic: god failed him
    druth Vlodovic: sort of like a cat deliberately doing something bad and getting caught just to get the affirmation of your attention for a moment
    Calvino Rabeni: we get a bit anthropomorphic, perhaps, attributing "ill intent" and a strategic intention on the part of the animal
    Calvino Rabeni: like, its thinking, I know this will piss them off, but damn, its WORTH it

    Calvino Rabeni: for humans there might be a kind of built in emotional strategy that's not exactly intentional
    druth Vlodovic: anthropomorphism gives accurate results
    Calvino Rabeni: like a child kicking and screaming angrily, having a tantrum
    druth Vlodovic: I remember being a child and my actions often coming from "somewhere"
    Calvino Rabeni: it is somewhat accurate until its extrapolated to some kind of theory of mind that isn't in there
    druth Vlodovic: I suspect now that my actions came from the same place they do now, only my consciousness wasn't as good at monitoring and justifying as it is now
    Calvino Rabeni: the actions felt like they came from somewhere, yes I suppose they did
    druth Vlodovic: I think of consciousness as just a monitoring program, rather than a source of anything
    Calvino Rabeni: thats interesting, whether the monitoring and justifying is pretending to be the author
    druth Vlodovic: the author mistakes himself for the paper in the typerwriter lol
    Calvino Rabeni: consciousness seems to be an empty space for integration of other events .. like a shared workspace
    druth Vlodovic: or a window for seeing it happen
    Calvino Rabeni: and perhaps some of those events are small "deciders" competing and looking for leverage ... not very powerful in themselves
    druth Vlodovic: not all integration happens under scrutiny
    Calvino Rabeni: no, I agree, probably hardly any happens under scrutiny
    Calvino Rabeni: because its too meddlesome (for lack of a better word)
    druth Vlodovic: too cumbersome
    Calvino Rabeni: too partial (in more than one way)
    druth Vlodovic: I learned a few years back to think in images
    druth Vlodovic: as well as words
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: and maybe there's more beyond that
    druth Vlodovic: it made my mind a bit more powerful
    druth Vlodovic: if i couldthink in pure thought what could i achieve?
    Calvino Rabeni: motion pictures that have a built-in world-appropriate action plan
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't know what pure thought might be
    druth Vlodovic: hard to imagine without images
    druth Vlodovic: sense without the senses
    Calvino Rabeni: any thought is at least potentially an amalgam of whatever the mindbrain is capable of
    druth Vlodovic: it is the capabilities I wonder at
    Calvino Rabeni: probably with more or less coherence and coordination
    Calvino Rabeni: and especially, timing
    druth Vlodovic: I didn't know i could think in pure images
    druth Vlodovic: it is like Plato's cave
    druth Vlodovic: only we know we are seeing shadows on a wall
    druth Vlodovic: but can't imagine any method to turn our heads
    druth Vlodovic: so all we can do is take our vast potentialand turn it into shadow images to project on the wall
    Calvino Rabeni: what meaning to people take from the plato's cave analogy?
    druth Vlodovic: whcih then gets transferred back to reality
    druth Vlodovic: eventually we not only imagine the shaows to be the whole of the world
    druth Vlodovic: but we imagine that we are just shadows ourselves
    druth Vlodovic: and capable of only what shadows are capable of
    Calvino Rabeni: like being in a cave and needing a light source
    druth Vlodovic: not even knowing there is a light source
    druth Vlodovic: since the light source isn't itself a shadow
    Calvino Rabeni: one meaning of the metaphor could be, a plea for a more peripatetic style of philosophy
    Calvino Rabeni: less sitting on one's ass in one place
    druth Vlodovic: peri-who?
    Calvino Rabeni: it means, walking around
    druth Vlodovic: ah
    druth Vlodovic: well
    druth Vlodovic: I was more thinking in terms of paradigm shifts
    Calvino Rabeni: and achieving varied perspectives

    Calvino Rabeni: nods, perhaps a paradigm shift needs the support of a practice of perspective shif?ts
    druth Vlodovic: I suspect we are renaming the same concept in several ways
    Calvino Rabeni: what did you have in mind with paradigms?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, could be
    druth Vlodovic: this is why I found thinking in pictures liberating
    druth Vlodovic: pictures don;t need to be defined
    druth Vlodovic: or interpreted
    Calvino Rabeni: it provided certain affordances you didn't already have
    Calvino Rabeni: powers, if you will
    druth Vlodovic: words need tobe defined and interpreted simply to exist
    Calvino Rabeni: or capabilities
    druth Vlodovic: so if we use words we can never go beyond our own knowledges
    druth Vlodovic: since our own thoughts and even observations are dependant on our knowledges
    Calvino Rabeni: a similar thing is at work I think, if we try to memorize a story, faster than memorizing a string of words
    druth Vlodovic: yes,we own the narrative
    Calvino Rabeni: so say someone tells a story, and your job is to repeat it, and the words exceed your short term memory
    Calvino Rabeni: yet the story can be "remembered" as it were, rolled up into a single ball of significance, somehow, out of which images can emerge
    Calvino Rabeni: right, the narrative gets a single "handle" somehow
    Calvino Rabeni: i remember learning to create those "handles"
    Calvino Rabeni: as a memory technique, I suppose
    druth Vlodovic: never thought of that,our stories exist independent of the words we use to tell them
    Calvino Rabeni: yes nods, that would be the first step
    Calvino Rabeni: to break out of a language-encoded model of memory
    druth Vlodovic: maybe language isn't how we store memory
    Calvino Rabeni: I suspect that's a consequence of the written-word literary culture
    Calvino Rabeni: an unfortunate side effect of our media habits
    druth Vlodovic: maybe language is imposed on memory during recall
    Calvino Rabeni: yes that seems evident in psychology studies
    druth Vlodovic: and images also can be imposed on a memory being recalled?
    Calvino Rabeni: the reinterpretation
    Calvino Rabeni: I imagine so
    druth Vlodovic: strip a memory of all the trappings of the senses and all we have left is meaning
    Calvino Rabeni: but there may be some low level codes involved
    druth Vlodovic: but dreams often lack meaning,or even narrative
    druth Vlodovic: so maybe they are imposed as well, during recall
    Calvino Rabeni: in many cases they are I think, a broken down collection of meaning, that gets reassembled in the recall
    Calvino Rabeni: so its healthy for the mind to break apart and reassemble
    druth Vlodovic: or is this the face on mars effect?
    Calvino Rabeni: man in the moon?
    druth Vlodovic: it just is, perhaps
    druth Vlodovic: how far down do we have to go to get "just" "it"
    Calvino Rabeni: the fact that we navigate the world effectively and skillfully, finding a good fit between what we imagine and what is there
    druth Vlodovic: or is this like peering more and more closely at a painting to discern it's content?
    druth Vlodovic: I was at a gallery the other day and noticed people doing it backwards again
    druth Vlodovic: they walk up to a painting to admire it
    Calvino Rabeni: thats interesting, what did they do?
    Calvino Rabeni: getting close?
    druth Vlodovic: I walk up to a painting and turn around to admire a painting on the far wall
    druth Vlodovic: and it looks much nicer,and more coherent
    Calvino Rabeni: there are paintings designed for seeing from lots of different distances
    Calvino Rabeni: using subtle effects
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember a Rembrandt sketch that had a strong effect of photorealism, but only at a certain distance
    druth Vlodovic: I was talking to an artist who said he had no idea how he paints it,since at the range of his brush he can't even see the painting
    Calvino Rabeni: thats interesting too
    Calvino Rabeni: a possible clue is,
    Calvino Rabeni: there's a machine that converts images from a camera into sound patterns
    Calvino Rabeni: and blind people can use it to image their surroundings suficiently for pretty good navigation and perception of forms in the environment

    Calvino Rabeni: so it could easily be that artist had a body to image map like the sound to image map the blind people "grew" with use
    druth Vlodovic: I'm reminded of the bike paradox again
    druth Vlodovic: you can't ride a bike and know how at the same time
    druth Vlodovic: if you think about it too much you fall off
    Calvino Rabeni: a version of the caterpillar paradox :)
    druth Vlodovic: the which?
    Calvino Rabeni: centipede, I think

    A centipede was happy, quite
    Until a toad in fun
    Said "pray, which leg goes after which?"
    That raised its mind to such a pitch
    It lay distracted in a ditch
    Considering how to run.

    druth Vlodovic: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: I read about a guy with brain damage, who cannot walk
    Calvino Rabeni: he falls right over
    Calvino Rabeni: but he CAN ride a bicycle quite well..
    druth Vlodovic: too much info to be dealt with in a sensory manner
    druth Vlodovic: but since we think that "we" are the consciousness,and we further think that the consciousness "knows" through reason and the senses...
    Calvino Rabeni: or people with alzheimers who are mute to spoken language, but who can sing lucidly
    Calvino Rabeni: the language capabilities of the brain are distributed in different centers
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah, we guess wrong about how it works
    druth Vlodovic: capabilities, or emergences?
    Calvino Rabeni: thinking its one thing
    Calvino Rabeni: only through these odd cases, its divisions get revealed
    druth Vlodovic: you can be capable of anything, but can only do what you can manifest
    Calvino Rabeni: well the unity is a dynamic coordination
    Calvino Rabeni: not a structure or substance
    Calvino Rabeni: emergences .. yes I think that expresses it too
    Calvino Rabeni: even emergencIES :)
    druth Vlodovic: so a capability which can't emerge in one format can emerge through another
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    druth Vlodovic: in emergencies my mind shuts down and all I do is watch myself react with occasional input
    Calvino Rabeni: and yet the reaction can be quite skillful
    Calvino Rabeni: (not always, unfortunately)
    druth Vlodovic: "not the ditch, the other side is more dangerous, ice in this part of the road" but the action is almost independent on me
    Calvino Rabeni: an internalized skill
    druth Vlodovic: maybe this is why people do crazy thing in emergencies they hadn't previously practiced for
    druth Vlodovic: their reason is normally a hinderence so it takes a vacation
    Calvino Rabeni: that makes sense
    Calvino Rabeni: reason is the problem solver for when things break down
    druth Vlodovic: a skid in a car is as close to pure interaction with environment as i can imagine
    Calvino Rabeni: the action of last resort
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah
    druth Vlodovic: I suspect reason to be the training manual, it fiigues out how to deal with it, but then mister Miyagi sits on the sidelines while karate kid fights
    Calvino Rabeni: learning a complex skill requires some retraining
    Calvino Rabeni: even to a deep brain level, like making amygdala more intelligent
    druth Vlodovic: so reason would be a luxury of leisure?
    Calvino Rabeni: i think people throughout the ages have had the leisure of contemplative time
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe we have less of it now
    druth Vlodovic: maybe why inducing fear in one's followers is such an effective tactic of control, you leave the arms intact but take away the ability to change one's instincts
    Calvino Rabeni: the trainer master miyagi knows some of the ins and outs of acquiring skill
    druth Vlodovic: maybe some of our stress is from trying to live exclusively in a learning, rather than living,state
    Calvino Rabeni: and cultivating instinct
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree wit that

    Calvino Rabeni: stress is an inhibition of instinct
    druth Vlodovic: or a confusion of it
    druth Vlodovic: if we accept that certain types of learning are for reprgramming instinct
    druth Vlodovic: then to live consteantly learning is to never have settled instincts
    Calvino Rabeni: yes I understand that
    Calvino Rabeni: the settling is needed
    druth Vlodovic: ah, I should seek sleep, I have limited time to sleep in tomorrow :)
    Calvino Rabeni: there is a deeply unconscious integration period needed for assimilation of skill or learning
    Calvino Rabeni: it happens in sleep :)
    druth Vlodovic: or so I have heard :)
    Calvino Rabeni: probably the largest health problem of our age, sleep deprivation
    druth Vlodovic: sweet dreams cal
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks, you too druth :)
    Calvino Rabeni: bye
    druth Vlodovic: and complaining about it
    Calvino Rabeni: nods

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