2015.05.21 13:00 - Effective Altruism, Droplets of Starry Light

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Shinju...


    pavilion 2_002.png

    ShinjuJin Resident: 's current display-name is "真珠".


    Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
    Bleu Oleander: hi Shin
    ShinjuJin Resident: Hello Bleu :)
    Bleu Oleander: how r u?
    ShinjuJin Resident: fairly well thanks! you?
    Bleu Oleander: pretty good :)
    ShinjuJin Resident: find the falling stars very calming
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Bleu Oleander: dream like in their fuzzyness
    ShinjuJin Resident: yes, I like that a lot
    ShinjuJin Resident: balance point between dream and 'other' :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)

    ShinjuJin Resident: I listened to the interview from the maker of Ex Machina today...
    ShinjuJin Resident: excellent :   


    Bleu Oleander: yes, I thought so too
    ShinjuJin Resident: I hadn't thought about the parallel to nuclear tech but he's quite right there
    Bleu Oleander: he's quite thoughtful
    ShinjuJin Resident nods
    ShinjuJin Resident: the interview made me appreciate the film more
    Bleu Oleander: yes exactly
    ShinjuJin Resident: the questions are similar to the other thing you shared... bloggingheads "active altruism"
    Qt Core: Hi Bleu, Shin
    Bleu Oleander: affective altruism?
    ShinjuJin Resident: Hi Qt :)
    ShinjuJin Resident: ah yes
    Bleu Oleander: also interesting
    Bleu Oleander: I've read a lot by Singer
    ShinjuJin Resident: I've never read an entire book by him... various commentaries and such

    Bleu Oleander: not sure its meaningful to compare upgrading a museum with curing blindness ... not really an either or for me ... think that its possible to to do both
    ShinjuJin Resident: I was distracted by that question too, because one can't make linear lines between what effects what over time exactly, but I did appreciate where he's coming from...
    ShinjuJin Resident: when there is a crisis, one deals with crisis first, is his point I guess
    ShinjuJin Resident: but then one would say there is always crisis
    Bleu Oleander: when pushed to choose with limited funds maybe comes into play more?

    ShinjuJin Resident: (Qt, Singer suggested that charity should be practical - to obvious places before for instance, funding a new wing of a museum)
    Bleu Oleander: should have said "effective" not affective ... always mix those up lol
    ShinjuJin Resident: hah, ok yes and I just went with it
    Bleu Oleander: always have to look it up lol
    ShinjuJin Resident: I was thinking active before, because I was thinking of compassion v empathy
    Qt Core: it has some logic in it
    ShinjuJin Resident: yes
    ShinjuJin Resident: compassion is reasonable
    ShinjuJin Resident: is I guess the connection between all these things... makes sense evolutionarily

    Qt Core: but then the beauty of art may inspire a young to become an eye surgeon to help other see art
    Bleu Oleander: I think there's enough $$$ to go around ... its just loosening it up and using it in more considered ways perhaps?
    ShinjuJin Resident nods...
    ShinjuJin Resident: really it is a matter of class judgments...
    ShinjuJin Resident: is... for instance someone giving to a wing of a museum thereby elevating their status before friends or business partners?
    ShinjuJin Resident: so in many cases it isn't a matter of charity per se
    ShinjuJin Resident: the same arguments happen with space travel and frivolous research studies


    Bleu Oleander: when one hears that a former leader of Qatar bought the 179 million picasso, you ask, is that the best use of his billions?
    ShinjuJin Resident: seemingly frivolous
    ShinjuJin Resident: right
    Qt Core: for the former owner yes ;-)
    ShinjuJin Resident: :)

    Bleu Oleander: well space travel ... at least we're after information about the universe ... so one could argue for knowledge of where we are ... but that much for a painting?
    ShinjuJin Resident: value judgment
    Bleu Oleander: not even close in my opinion but to others perhaps :)
    Qt Core: status
    ShinjuJin Resident: yes, the business and even political world is made of status?
    ShinjuJin Resident: so projecting wealth (I'm not saying this is the case, could be pure appreciation) is power that might be worth a lot
    Qt Core: i'm so rich i can "waste" money
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Bleu Oleander: we shouldn't value that stance in my opinion

    ShinjuJin Resident: but the basic question of whether, if one person is standing before you unable to see and another is before you able to see but doesn't have admission to a museum... who do you give to, if the amount is the same ?
    Bleu Oleander: well you help the person see if the choice is that limited, but it rarely is I think
    Qt Core: what if the person lacking the museum is a relative/friend....
    Bleu Oleander: well that's another issue Qt
    ShinjuJin Resident: the issue is changing fast I think , because we are in a time where it is possible to 'see' everything ... I mean see the needs in various places in the world and to be able at least in theory, to try to help
    Bleu Oleander: a question of widening our circle of compassion
    ShinjuJin Resident: oooh yes
    ShinjuJin Resident: hierarchy of value
    ShinjuJin Resident: human v my human

    Bleu Oleander: is it even possible to widen our circles that much?
    Bleu Oleander: can we really care about a child half way round the world?
    Qt Core: the usual ratio between deaths and km to decide if a news is worthy of first page
    ShinjuJin Resident: I think so... at least there is that aspiration
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    ShinjuJin Resident: goes back to the thought of compassion being reasonable and rational
    Bleu Oleander: but actually?
    ShinjuJin Resident: if not necessarily a 'feeling'
    ShinjuJin Resident: I think a lot of people are moving in these directions... or at least trying to talk themselves into it
    Bleu Oleander: what does it mean to say compassion is rational?
    ShinjuJin Resident: there can be an argument in compassion's favor, not based on feelings but collective wellbeing
    ShinjuJin Resident: (why am I whispering?) lol
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Bleu Oleander: I think emotions drive that line of thought though
    ShinjuJin Resident: when someone really sees that it is in their best interest that others do well, therefore works toward that, that's reasonable compassion
    ShinjuJin Resident: emotions but not necessarily warm fuzzies
    Bleu Oleander: emotions drive everything it seems
    ShinjuJin Resident: nods

    Qt Core: i often go with the "dp ut des" idea on a massive (tribe/race) scale
    Qt Core: i'll help you so you'll help me
    Qt Core: (generic you)


    ShinjuJin Resident: reasonable hypothesis
    ShinjuJin Resident: Sunshine talks about "ubuntu"
    ShinjuJin Resident: as a governing philosophy
    ShinjuJin Resident: the museum question is still a tough one though....
    ShinjuJin Resident: because there are some children who will never leave their neighborhoods outside of field trips, etc
    ShinjuJin Resident: it can be life changing
    ShinjuJin Resident: scope changing
    ShinjuJin Resident: a lot of bang for buck
    Bleu Oleander: I don't see that it is a valid choice
    Bleu Oleander: do both
    Qt Core: but restore sight may be felt as more urgent
    ShinjuJin Resident: yes, if in hand to do
    Bleu Oleander: well of course its more urgent if the choice is that limited
    Bleu Oleander: but I don't think it is
    ShinjuJin Resident: a creative person might use the museum as a way to gather attention for the other - some mutually beneficial situation
    Qt Core: but when the parameters become a lot one can't really see all of them
    ShinjuJin Resident: but on a day to day practical basis we are down to our own scope

    Bleu Oleander: I think there are many people who can contribute to museums and cultural documentation while there are others who can help with poverty, health issues etc.
    Bleu Oleander: how do you persuade those with money to use it meaningfully?
    ShinjuJin Resident nods... don't really think it is a zero-sum but ultimately a matter of that
    ShinjuJin Resident: can't rename impoverished villages after moguls, lol
    Bleu Oleander: put aside ego, power, passion, etc. in favor of what's good for humanity?
    Bleu Oleander: interesting thought that :)
    ShinjuJin Resident: well some are setting examples... channeling wealth in meaningful directions and being public about that
    Bleu Oleander: yes of course there are many who do contribute
    ShinjuJin Resident: but there is still the question of whether amassing that large of an amount of money (enough to own a country) is really just
    Bleu Oleander: well it could be just if its used in a just way
    Bleu Oleander: like the example Singer gave
    Qt Core: and then there are increasing taxes ratios too
    Bleu Oleander: the student who went to wall st. so he could make a lot of money to give away
    Qt Core: you need it less and as a state (in a perfect world) i know better how to use them
    ShinjuJin Resident nods.... was recently learning that in the time of great prosperity for Japan, the govt actively included all classes... so that there was something like a 90% value of life raising dramatically across the board
    ShinjuJin Resident: so it was innovation
    ShinjuJin Resident: but also govt attention and value system

    Bleu Oleander: hi Eden :)
    ShinjuJin Resident: Hi Eden and Blanche :))
    Qt Core: Hi Eden
    Bleu Oleander: and kitty
    Eden Haiku: hello
    ShinjuJin Resident: I agreed with his example Bleu, but maybe a special case?
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    ShinjuJin Resident: I think of Singer as more evolved than I am but maybe a bit rigid
    ShinjuJin Resident: :)
    Bleu Oleander: yes a bit rigid :)
    ShinjuJin Resident: Eden we've been talking about...hm....
    ShinjuJin Resident: practical altruism?
    Eden Haiku: Singer? Who he's he?
    ShinjuJin Resident: Peter Singer...philosopher, writer
    Bleu Oleander: Peter Singer and effective altruism
    Eden Haiku: Ah,..pratical altruism...
    ShinjuJin Resident: he is one of the most prominent voices in food ethics also
    Bleu Oleander: http://bloggingheads.tv/videos/35143...5:58&out=39:42
    Qt Core: where help is more needed, where could it be more effective ?>
    Bleu Oleander: and animal rights
    ShinjuJin Resident: but in this case we were talking a lot about his saying that charity should go to crisis needs before things like adding wings onto museums
    ShinjuJin Resident: he basically thinks people should stop adding more enrichments until the great needs are taken care of
    Bleu Oleander: good summary :)
    ShinjuJin Resident: :) thx


    Qt Core: but then a life with engineering manuals and bread but without poetry and chocolate is worth living ?
    ShinjuJin Resident: right!
    ShinjuJin Resident: is one even possible without the other
    Bleu Oleander: for me both are needed and perhaps looking at what we spend of money on is a better approach ... like military budgets for one
    ShinjuJin Resident: indeed

    Eden Haiku: It's the 1st time I sit in the new pavilion. I like it Bleu, the starkness of it. It's neat. And I love those Sunshine cushions. Tks for summarizing Shin :) I couldn't live without poetry and chocolate....
    ShinjuJin Resident smiles
    Bleu Oleander: thanks Eden :)
    Eden Haiku: Indeed. More money goes into military than to education and health, Here at least...
    Bleu Oleander: I like Sunji's cushions too :)
    ShinjuJin Resident: far more
    ShinjuJin Resident: and into perpetuating a monetary system that requires constant growth and therefore constant weapon making and war

    Bleu Oleander: so one could ask about our cultures values
    ShinjuJin Resident nods
    Eden Haiku: How could we stop this big wheel?
    ShinjuJin Resident: slowing it down would be ambitious
    Bleu Oleander: have to make small improvements where we each can
    Eden Haiku: That would be a start...
    Bleu Oleander: but too many don't want to
    ShinjuJin Resident: I do think there is a large arc in this time
    ShinjuJin Resident: if I look at my own life.... have changed a lot in my value system
    ShinjuJin Resident: just over the last 20 years..enormous
    Bleu Oleander: yes me too
    ShinjuJin Resident: and my kids seem not to have the accumulation mindset
    ShinjuJin Resident: although they want to experience things

    Eden Haiku: I'm as much a dreamer as I used to be...
    ShinjuJin Resident: :)
    Bleu Oleander: dreaming is good :)
    ShinjuJin Resident: mhm
    Eden Haiku: I think I contribute a bit with my books, trying to be with the big picture and the texture of a multidiemensional reality,
    Eden Haiku: But then, it's only a drop in an ocean...
    Bleu Oleander: yes but a needed drop for sure
    ShinjuJin Resident nods
    ShinjuJin Resident: and never know which seed meets which conditions

    Bleu Oleander: very few can be more than a drop
    Eden Haiku: Do you see your art like that Bleu?
    Bleu Oleander: I do and I see what we do like that
    ShinjuJin Resident nods
    Bleu Oleander: we reach out to many but still a drop
    ShinjuJin Resident: cultivating openheartedness
    Eden Haiku: And raising children Shin, with all your care and love, and transmitting your values, They maybe, will stop the wheel...
    Eden Haiku: I guess I mean, the reels.
    ShinjuJin Resident: mmm
    Bleu Oleander: I think the wheel is too big for one to change it ... the one drop at a time is more realistic for most of us
    ShinjuJin Resident: making bits of space
    Eden Haiku: There is an exact word but I can't locate it in my French saturated mind. I'm working all day on my novel in French.

    Bleu Oleander: the universe is a very big space :) and we are just some tiny beings in a tiny pocket of it :)
    ShinjuJin Resident: ah :) the stars up above might be calming and restful for you Eden
    ShinjuJin Resident: I sat looking at them for 5 minutes before Bleu arrived earlier...
    Eden Haiku: Yes, I noticed them
    Eden Haiku: We are in the world of Nout...
    Bleu Oleander: mesmerizing to see them born from the center and fall
    Eden Haiku: Droplets of light
    Bleu Oleander: we are stardust


    Bleu Oleander: all the atoms in our bodies came from exploding stars ... fun to think about :)
    Eden Haiku: Droplets of light, grains of sand in the machinery of things...
    ShinjuJin Resident: "for small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love..."
    ShinjuJin Resident: C. Sagan
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Eden Haiku: Ah. nice :)

    ShinjuJin Resident: now I'm too calm to chat, heheh
    Bleu Oleander: lol
    Eden Haiku: Hehe
    Eden Haiku: I hear no bell? Still just in chat?
    Bleu Oleander: me too
    ShinjuJin Resident: hm.... my volume is down today so I'm not sure
    Eden Haiku: waving to Wol...
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Eden Haiku: Ah right, I think volume has to be set at 7...
    Bleu Oleander: did you hear a bell?
    Eden Haiku: Did you hear it Qt?
    Bleu Oleander: I hear the fountain, but have not heard a bell
    Eden Haiku: Well, I won't be able to check at the next bell, I have to go back to work. It was nice chatting with you ;) May we all drop in peace :)
    ShinjuJin Resident: happy writing Eden!
    Bleu Oleander: nice to see you Eden :)
    ShinjuJin Resident: thanks for coming :))
    Bleu Oleander: take care
    Bleu Oleander: I must go too
    ShinjuJin Resident: thanks Bleu and Qt too
    Bleu Oleander: thanks for a nice conversation
    Qt Core: i haven't notoced it (or its lack), i was a bit distracted
    ShinjuJin Resident: yes...its that time
    Bleu Oleander: take care
    Qt Core: Bye Eden
    ShinjuJin Resident: I'll try to notice the bell next time
    Bleu Oleander: bfn :)
    Qt Core: bye
    ShinjuJin Resident: bfn :))

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