2016.10.15 13:00 - Lived Experience

    Table of contents
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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments and screen saves are by Bruce Mowbray.

    The photos on this page were copied from a TED talk - "The Beauty of Pollination" (link to video is found below.)

    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Evening, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: You are well, I trust.
    Eliza Madrigal: Doing well, thanks! You today?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm, well physically tired, otherwise doing pretty well.
    Bruce Mowbray: Missed my usual morning walk today -- doing errands in town.
    Eliza Madrigal: Evening walk suffice?
    Bruce Mowbray: If I can talk my typist into doing it, perhaps.
    Bruce Mowbray: Could get it in after shower and before Ohio State football, perhaps.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) I understand that... just came back from a shopping trip I told my daughter would not happen if I waited for later
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: I just want to stay in and read Maxine's book :))
    Bruce Mowbray: I saw your note about Maxine's new book.
    Bruce Mowbray: For sure!
    Bruce Mowbray: You have a Kindle version?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    Bruce Mowbray misses Maxine's dream sessions.
    Eliza Madrigal: I may get the other later, since I do like to have, at least friend's books, looking at me from shelves
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, wonderful.
    Eliza Madrigal: I have too, but it is so comforting to know what she's been doing :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it is.
    Bruce Mowbray: I bought a book for $2 in the Thrift Store while I was in town today...
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought to look at the dream sessions a few weeks ago, then remembered no recordings! hah
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh?
    Bruce Mowbray: "Moral Minds" -- 'How Nature designed our universal sense of right and wrong'   by Marc Hauser.
    Bruce Mowbray: Looks to be really good.
    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting and possibly complementary, hm
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I thought so too.
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm sort of allergic to the world 'moral,' but I need to temper that
    Bruce Mowbray: What sort of turned me on about the theme is a comment that John Dominic Crossan made on a DVD that we're watching in the Sunday school class that my typist attends every week.
    Bruce Mowbray: Crossan quoted Martin Luther King...
    Bruce Mowbray: saying, "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice..."
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, nods
    Bruce Mowbray: and Crossan followed that up by saying, evolution also bends toward justice....
    Bruce Mowbray: So, I'm exploring and stretching my mind with these themes.
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Has something in Maxine's book grabbed your attention yet?
    Eliza Madrigal: I like the feeling of believing King is right, but seems an open question still
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, for sure...
    Bruce Mowbray: an ideal...
    Bruce Mowbray: but both Crossan and Hauser (the book I bought today) say that morality is the inevitable product of evolution - and in far many more species than our own, and that unless a species develops morality, it goes extinct.
    Bruce Mowbray: Humans tend to view morality as a top-down set of principles...
    Bruce Mowbray: but nature builds from the other direction.
    Eliza Madrigal smiles, sounds indeed like a well spent $2!
    Bruce Mowbray: The book was originally $30, so I got a good deal on it.
    Bruce Mowbray: (no markings in it, either).
    Bruce Mowbray: Lots and lots of cognitive science, neuro-psychology, and naturalism in it, I think.... just scanning so far.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Perhaps I'm having a pessimistic streak, feeling chipping away at various progresses
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh, me TOOOOO.
    Qt Core: Hi Eliza, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Some days actually fighting off depression....

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt!
    Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Qt!
    Eliza Madrigal: sorry to hear that
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome to the contingent from Italy!
    Qt Core: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Important to draw away from being so caught up in the times, during election cycles especially
    Eliza Madrigal: And honestly, lots is captivating in Max's book. She is, you know, so clear spoken and integrates so many quite complex ideas without losing heart
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, when it hits, as it did after I'd returned from town this morning, I've made it a point to meditate for 20 or 30 minutes...

    Bruce Mowbray: that seems to help a lot.


    Eliza Madrigal: so her book stirs a feeling of excitement about learning
     Eliza Madrigal: ah, yes, exactly
    Bruce Mowbray: I love that form of integration of experience...
    Eliza Madrigal: best way to step out :)
    Bruce Mowbray: sounds like a wonderful book.
    Eliza Madrigal nods... I'm not letting myself jump ahead to PaB/Pema parts yet
    Bruce Mowbray: https://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Lived-...Metaphysics%22
    Eliza Madrigal: felt good to pause :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes. A pause that refreshes.

    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: How are you today, Qt?
    Eliza Madrigal: bright in yellow :)
    Bruce Mowbray notices, nods.
    Qt Core: sleepy, some stress induced sleeping issues
    Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh. Welcome to our little club.
    Bruce Mowbray: Eliza and I were just talking about such things.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Qt Core: and still saddened by Dario Fo death
    Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh. So sorry. Will look that up....
    Eliza Madrigal: I didn't know!
    Qt Core: our own literature Nobel laureate, died on the same day Dylan was awarded his
    Eliza Madrigal: have been so selective with news in this crazy election environment
    Bruce Mowbray: ahhh.
    Eliza Madrigal: he is instantly recognizable by face, but name took a moment
    Bruce Mowbray: Here's are wikipedia articles about him:
    Bruce Mowbray: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accide...f_an_Anarchist
    Bruce Mowbray: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dario_Fo
    Bruce Mowbray: Eliza and I are trying to retain our sanity by not watching the news... or so much news, anyway.
    Eliza Madrigal: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/14/ar...iterature.html<---nice article at first scan, too
    Qt Core: i find it easy, regarding news, to listen to them only on radio and not on tv
    Bruce Mowbray: A native of Milano, I see.
    Eliza Madrigal: even on radio, there is constant looping
    Qt Core: many of the silliest ones need visual, like sport/fashion/vip craziness
    Bruce Mowbray nods.

    Bruce Mowbray: I want to stay informed, but I don't want to be assaulted in the process.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
    Eliza Madrigal: my rule for myself is that if it has a certain face on it, I won't retweet.... don't want to do that to anyone, hah
    Bruce Mowbray: for sure, Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal: but a lesson in media and propaganda for sure
    Bruce Mowbray: Like throwing a Big Mac into the face of a vegetarian... not a moral thing to do.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: meanwhile there are deep thinking and astute people writing plays and books...
    Eliza Madrigal: and stars shining in the sky
    Bruce Mowbray remembers those lines from Kipling: "If you can keep your head when everyone else has lost theirs...." etc, etc.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Bruce Mowbray: (or a paraphrase of that...)
    Eliza Madrigal: have been listening to the soundtrack from Hamilton too
    Bruce Mowbray: will look it up....
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh wonderful!
    Bruce Mowbray: Do you enjoy rap, Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: it is, so current and fresh
    Eliza Madrigal: depends, like most things
    Eliza Madrigal: but I like some Korean rap too, and I can't even understand the words ^^
    Eliza Madrigal: but Hamilton is wide ranging
    Eliza Madrigal: and clever
    Bruce Mowbray: It looks like a fantastic musical.
    Bruce Mowbray: Kipling:
    Bruce Mowbray: IF you can keep your head when all about you

    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

    If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,

    But make allowance for their doubting too;

    If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

    Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,

    Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,

    And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

    Bruce Mowbray: If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

    Or walk with Kings – nor lose the common touch,

    If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,

    If all men count with you, but none too much;

    If you can fill the unforgiving minute

    With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,

    Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,

    And – which is more – you’ll be a Man, my son!


    Bruce Mowbray: (a bit sexist, perhaps, but still good....)
    Eliza Madrigal: Still good, captures coming into maturity
    Bruce Mowbray: Is there a one-syllable word for "human-kind"?
    Bruce Mowbray: maybe "folks"?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
    Bruce Mowbray: "mensch"
    Eliza Madrigal: "Be a man... you must be swift as a coursing river..." (Mulan)
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't have any issue with helping boys become men, etc....
    Bruce Mowbray loves rivers, more that just about anything, except perhaps trees.
    Eliza Madrigal: just wish for things aimed at girls not to be all about being pretty....
    Eliza Madrigal: or even virtuous
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: strange as that sounds, when I'm so interested in virtue
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, virtue - like honor, wisdom, and grace - are perhaps the products of experience... rather than teachings from outside.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: experience first hand, or by example
    Bruce Mowbray: Older, wise, more gracious, more forgiving, less judgmental, and more virtuous... from the inside out.
    Eliza Madrigal: life tends to provide feedback for most of us
    Bruce Mowbray nods, like "Lived Experience" in Maxine's title.
    Eliza Madrigal: opportunities for course corrections
    Eliza Madrigal: YES
    Bruce Mowbray: Ever notice how rivers naturally "correct" their courses....?
    Eliza Madrigal: I've not had enough time in or around rivers, sadly
    Bruce Mowbray: Trees, too.
    Bruce Mowbray: When my typist walked across the country in 1977, he always made it a point to walk beside a river... many reasons for that, actually.
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Bruce Mowbray: May be something similar to how some folks enjoy walking on the seashore.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) ocean is like returning to womb
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
    Bruce Mowbray: From whence we all came?
    Eliza Madrigal: feels that way.... to me, salt water and the ocean rhythms calm like almost nothing else
    Eliza Madrigal: except maybe whooshing of winds in trees
    Bruce Mowbray wonders about differences between sky gods/goddesses, river gods, and ocean gods.
    Eliza Madrigal: ...another wonderful book out recently btw "The Secret Life of Trees"
    Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh.
    Bruce Mowbray remembers "The Secret Live of Plants" from the '60's
    Eliza Madrigal: :) sounds like another avatar art project! 'gods of nature'
    Bruce Mowbray: would love such a project.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: but we may already have it with "What do we honor?"
    Eliza Madrigal: nice thought
    Eliza Madrigal: hope to pin down details in wg meeting tomorrow
    Bruce Mowbray nods, good plan.
    Eliza Madrigal: Qt what do you do to connect and de-stress?
    Qt Core: read, mostly, mostly silly things
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Want to see something beautiful?
    Bruce Mowbray: This was TED talk....
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embe...q1edcbk4?rel=0
    Qt Core: or play numbing online games usually of the match 3 family
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe qt, yes sometimes hard to get to ocean or forest ^^
    Eliza Madrigal clicks...
    Qt Core: ohh, this summer, first time at the sea in more than 40 years, just floating with little waves under me, especially when my feet were pointing to the beach so i didn't see the waves approaching was great at relaxing
    Qt Core: not 40, only 34
    Eliza Madrigal: wow.... that's wonderful qt


    Bruce Mowbray wonders what it would be like not to see the ocean in 34 years.... Perhaps like a child in first discovery.
    Qt Core: and my sister loved those moments too... to attack me
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ha ha.
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: and you wrote that just as the music on the video crescendoed and then came bees and bats
    Bruce Mowbray: p-o-l-l-i-n-a-t-i-o-n......
    Eliza Madrigal: humans seem to developing thinner skin when less skin contact, frolicking around
    Bruce Mowbray: Play helps us to accept and trust our vulnerabilities.
    Eliza Madrigal: that was one of the most fascinating things about the trees book.. the way they are all connected very in real ways and communities... made me think of Avatar
    Bruce Mowbray: oh yes.
    Bruce Mowbray remembers that in AVATAR the whole community went to the Great Mother Tree for healing... (even for resurrection) beautiful image.
    Eliza Madrigal: so, so much so
    Bruce Mowbray: So, evolution developed "community" among trees in forests, wonderful idea.
    Eliza Madrigal: they even consider one another, but sometimes play favorites like humans....
    Eliza Madrigal: leave space for each other to grow, etc
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    Bruce Mowbray: I saw something about selective chemical absorption by roots..... can't remember it all..., but something about sharing, etc.
    Eliza Madrigal: intricate, but just what they do :)
    Bruce Mowbray: if some other member of that community needed that chemical....
    Eliza Madrigal thinks of human brains and neurochemicals
    Bruce Mowbray: so, evolved altruism.... ?
    Bruce Mowbray: How so, Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: cause for wonder...just visually... roots and reachings and firings
    Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh.
    Eliza Madrigal: connection, integration
    Eliza Madrigal: btw, family doing okay, qt?
    Eliza Madrigal: hope stresses keeping you up are not serious
    Qt Core: same old things, at least nothing new
    Eliza Madrigal: hugs
    Eliza Madrigal: I need to go, but wish you a good deep rest
    Eliza Madrigal: and you too Bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I should also go.
    Eliza Madrigal: and also me :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you both for being here today.
    Qt Core: ty Bruce and ty Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks for hosting! and don't be a stranger qt
    Bruce Mowbray: Have a pleasant weekend.


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