2018.05.07 13:00 - Let's find the Simurgh and be Grass free

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Mick. The Scribe was Agatha Macbeth.


    Bruce Mowbray: 's current display-name is "Bruce".

    Bruce Mowbray: and himHi, Tura. Hi, Storm
    Tura Brezoianu: hi Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: I see aggers on the horizon.
    Agatha Macbeth: Gleetings :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Storm.
    Storm Nordwind: Hi!
    Agatha Macbeth: Hey I'm not that big :p
    Bruce Mowbray: Mick cometh.
    Agatha Macbeth: Here he is!
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Mick!
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Folks
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Mick. Saved you a place :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes I hate these poses too Stormy :p
    Mickorod Renard: cheers
    Bruce Mowbray: I never use the cushion.
    Mickorod Renard: am very laggy today
    Agatha Macbeth: Laptop boy
    Bruce Mowbray: I use Where in the world are you today, Nick?
    Bruce Mowbray: Mick*
    Mickorod Renard: I am home today, Wales yesterday
    Bruce Mowbray: Ahh!
    Agatha Macbeth: There's lovely
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Agatha Macbeth: Did you have a leek?
    Mickorod Renard: kids needed pleanty
    Agatha Macbeth: I bet
    Mickorod Renard: was nice tho
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Mickorod Renard: very hot here today
    Agatha Macbeth: Yeh warm
    Agatha Macbeth: Got my shorts on
    Storm Nordwind: How hot is hot?
    Agatha Macbeth: Was 23C here
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure it was rumoured to be 29 here
    Agatha Macbeth: Erk
    Storm Nordwind: Currently 24°C here and getting hotter. Expecting 29
    Mickorod Renard: but I didnt check
    Agatha Macbeth: Ice cream weather
    Agatha Macbeth: I scream for ice cream
    Mickorod Renard: yayyy,,well its always icecream weather for me
    Agatha Macbeth facepalms
    Agatha Macbeth: Wonderif Liz is coming?
    Storm Nordwind: No
    Storm Nordwind: I expect not
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Tura Brezoianu: Right now it's 34C at my computer.
    Mickorod Renard: btw, Pila reports he is ok and not in direct threat form volcano at mo
    Storm Nordwind: Apparently she's on a short working trip to Las Vegas
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh! Thank you for that report on Pila.
    Bruce Mowbray: I was worried about him.
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh good (on both counts)
    Agatha Macbeth: Old Pele again
    Storm Nordwind: Taking a particular interest in Pila's wellbeing
    Mickorod Renard: Thankyou again for the voice book reading sections Bruce
    Agatha Macbeth: Hope they haven't been fracking again
    Bruce Mowbray: Does Pila live on the big Island?
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes thx Brucie
    Storm Nordwind: Did you know years ago that we were offered a plot of land next to his as a permanent retreat site?
    Bruce Mowbray: yw.
    Mickorod Renard: yes Bruce he does
    Agatha Macbeth: Nope
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh dear.
    Agatha Macbeth: (@ Storm)
    Mickorod Renard: I do recall Storm
    Agatha Macbeth: Where did he live?
    Bruce Mowbray: Near Hilo?
    Storm Nordwind: 7 miles from the main vent of the most active volcano in the world
    Agatha Macbeth: In SL I mean
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh dear.
    Storm Nordwind: This was all in RL Aggers
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh
    Bruce Mowbray scans horizon for erupting volcanoes.
    Agatha Macbeth: That might have been interesting
    Agatha Macbeth: Bring your own lava lamp
    Mickorod Renard: He loves the volcano tho,
    Bruce Mowbray: Was the encounter between the king and the young boy fishing part of today's assignment?
    Agatha Macbeth: Yeh I know
    Mickorod Renard: yes it was
    Storm Nordwind: I think so Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: good.
    Tura Brezoianu: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: I really related to that one . . . or, perhaps I should say I related to the parable quality of it.
    Mickorod Renard: I was in a rush reading but as its smaller I can read again for thurday
    Bruce Mowbray: it reminded me a lot of Jesus saying "I will make you fishers of men."
    Mickorod Renard: funily enough it was that one that I would have asked guidance on
    Bruce Mowbray: How so,Mick?
    Bruce Mowbray: guidance?
    Mickorod Renard: well, I didnt quite get it
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm.
    Bruce Mowbray: as with almost every parable, there are opposites:
    Bruce Mowbray: the King and the impoverished child.
    Bruce Mowbray: empathetically, the king helps the child catch fish for his family....
    Bruce Mowbray waits for bell....
    Mickorod Renard: but no mention in the end of whether the king took care of his sibblings
    Bruce Mowbray: parables often leave us dangling like that.
    Mickorod Renard: yes, at the waters edge I thought the king had made a threat in that today i give fish but tomorrow I raid the village and kill all
    Bruce Mowbray: the king caught 100 fish on the first day....
    Bruce Mowbray: and told the young boy that the next day he would be the fish ( the boy would be the fish).
    Mickorod Renard: soz, will listen
    Bruce Mowbray: np.
    Bruce Mowbray: that reminded me of Jesus saying " I will make you fishers of men."
    Bruce Mowbray: I guess it's a question of who is doing the fishing . . .
    Agatha Macbeth: Fishes but no loaves :p
    Bruce Mowbray: different parable, aggers.
    Agatha Macbeth: Different religion too
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I was also reminded of the jesus story and hoped that it would be similar, maybe thats why I felt left short
    Bruce Mowbray: well I'm not so sure it's a different religion . . . it's certainly the same mysticism, regardless of which religion it appears in.
    Agatha Macbeth: Could be
    Storm Nordwind: And it's the same deity
    Bruce Mowbray: Tura, how do you feel about this?
    Bruce Mowbray: Or is it too hot to feel anything?
    Tura Brezoianu: I suppose the King in that story represents God, and his dealings with the fisherboy, the murderer, and the woodcutter represent the bestowing of god's grace
    Agatha Macbeth fans Tura with a cushion
    Tura Brezoianu: the same with the hoopoe receiving the glance of Solomon
    Bruce Mowbray nods. . . Well said, Tura.
    Bruce Mowbray: Solomon being an archetypal symbol of wisdom.
    Tura Brezoianu: But it makes this grace into a chance, unlooked-for gift bestowed arbitrarily
    Mickorod Renard: second that, well observed Tura and ty for making it clearer for me
    Tura Brezoianu: Is that part of the meaning as well?
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Bruce Mowbray ponders grace and random chance.
    Agatha Macbeth: He wasn't too clever at building tho - had to get someone else to build his temple for him
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I strugglked with that as I have always been in awe of some folks having such grace and me lacking it
    Tura Brezoianu: Many are called -- that is, feel that they are called -- yet few are chosen
    Tura Brezoianu: "out of every hundred thousand, but one"
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
    Bruce Mowbray: the "Conference of the Birds" seems to imply a similar ratio.
    Tura Brezoianu: "Most are turned back, and few perceive the throne; Among a hundred thousand there is one"
    Bruce Mowbray: I still have some problems with the poem's implication that grace is something that needs to be achieved, presumably through asceticism.
    Storm Nordwind: Isn't that a contradiction of what grace is supposed to be?
    Mickorod Renard: As I have spent quite a while in schools its been a facination of mine to observe thae acts of some kids, like for eg, some are good kids all the time and maybe boght up well, others have had a harsh time and to see one good act from them is to see real effort
    Agatha Macbeth: What is grace supposed to be?
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't think grace CAN be achieved . . . (agreed with Storm).
    Agatha Macbeth: I always thought of it as selflessness
    Mickorod Renard: I think that is sometimes whats observed Ags
    Agatha Macbeth: Hm
    Mickorod Renard: but its prob deeper
    Bruce Mowbray: selflessness seems to be the quality that the hoopoe requires . . .
    Tura Brezoianu: In the next set of stories, where the hoopoe answers the bird complaining of sin,the door of God's mercy is said to always stand open.
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    Bruce Mowbray: it may be important to remember that both Islam and Christianity sprang from Abrahamic tradition.
    Agatha Macbeth: Good old Abe
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I spotted that Tura, and some reference that God doesnt need to comply with any rules as he is above that
    Mickorod Renard: I thought I saw some notion that one needs to show the real self too, and not be hidden in vanity
    Mickorod Renard: What about the woodcutter?
    Bruce Mowbray: in the tradition of Abraham, the blood from any slain animal had to be "sacrificed" to God . . . but then Jesus says,"Drink my blood in remembrance...." Theologically speaking, I have always felt that Jesus was saying "YOU are gods."
    Bruce Mowbray: (and that was the purpose of "Christening" - recognition of the Christ/God in each person.)
    Bruce Mowbray: or am I over my head here?
    Bruce Mowbray: What about the woodcutter?
    Tura Brezoianu: I think you would have been a few hundred years ago :)
    Agatha Macbeth hands Brucie a snorkel
    Mickorod Renard: he he , over my head.....and I think I am a Christian
    Bruce Mowbray: ty. :)
    Agatha Macbeth thinks of a song by Fleetwood Mac
    Bruce Mowbray: which one,aggers?
    Agatha Macbeth: Over my Head
    Mickorod Renard: ah
    Agatha Macbeth: (Sung by Christine)
    Agatha Macbeth: Such a beautiful voice
    Mickorod Renard: I will confess something odd if you wish
    Bruce Mowbray: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npnGTnupBX0
    Storm Nordwind leans and listens
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh this should be good
    Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Mick.
    Mickorod Renard: I had a bad time about 14 years ago living in France
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Bruce Mowbray also nods.
    Mickorod Renard: and was deprived of sleep and all sorts
    Bruce Mowbray listens
    Mickorod Renard: so I ended up having apparitions if one could call them that
    Agatha Macbeth: Erk
    Mickorod Renard: God type ones
    Bruce Mowbray: hallucinations?
    Storm Nordwind: visions?
    Bruce Mowbray: Visions, yes.
    Bruce Mowbray: understands.
    Agatha Macbeth: Sleep deprevation can do that
    Mickorod Renard: but also at the same time had a massive urge to go to the market and sit with locals drinking wine and bread
    Storm Nordwind: Always a good thing to do, no?
    Bruce Mowbray nods. I think you had a profound mystical experience. Mick.
    Agatha Macbeth: Sounds good to me
    Mickorod Renard: afterwards I realized that it was a linked thing
    Mickorod Renard: always red wine
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Mickorod Renard: I was necver a drinker but during that period it felt such a nessesity
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    Storm Nordwind: Did you think of yourself as Christian in those days?
    Mickorod Renard: not at all
    Mickorod Renard: in fact I resented the whole thing as an intrusion
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Bruce Mowbray ponders wine and bread has major symbols. . . and sharing them as also powerfully symbolic, especially with the downtrodden.
    Agatha Macbeth: Were you anywhere near Marseilles by any chance?
    Mickorod Renard: but after a while it became quite moving and rescuing
    Bruce Mowbray nods, identifies.
    Mickorod Renard: no Ags
    Agatha Macbeth: OK
    Agatha Macbeth: Just wondered
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Storm Nordwind: Pouncy, Ags?
    Agatha Macbeth: Pouncy?
    Storm Nordwind: never mind :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Bouncy yes
    Agatha Macbeth: I'm a tigger
    Bruce Mowbray ponders "rescuing..."
    Mickorod Renard: so the woodcutter seemed odd, cos he appeared greedy
    Bruce Mowbray: I haven't read that section yet, sorry.
    Storm Nordwind: Did you try and recreate the experience consciously after that?
    Mickorod Renard: yes Bruce, I think I was at a wits end
    Bruce Mowbray nods, been there, done that.
    Mickorod Renard: which experience Storm?
    Bruce Mowbray: that's why my typist walked across the country in 1977 . . . he was suicidal.
    Storm Nordwind: Of the vision, or the inspiration to go share wine and bread?
    Mickorod Renard: owww...Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: and did you actually share the wine and bread with those people, Mick
    Bruce Mowbray: ?
    Mickorod Renard: I am almost t total and prefer a coke or pepsi
    Storm Nordwind: Ah!
    Agatha Macbeth: Takes all sorts
    Mickorod Renard: of the visions I have them embedded on my memory,,very strong and vivid
    Bruce Mowbray Ponders communion with Coke or Pepsi . . . or even sharing a cigarette.
    Mickorod Renard: I was a stranger but I sat with locals just at a high bar ,,traders
    Bruce Mowbray: I think it's important not to fetishize, or literalize, the elements of the communion experience..
    Agatha Macbeth hears 'fetish' and smiles happily
    Storm Nordwind: You felt rescued. Did you feel stronger, more able to deal with your difficult life after that, or what it just, as you said, an intrusion?
    Storm Nordwind: *was
    Mickorod Renard: It gave me answers of how to proceed and how life was , as Bruce sometimes says'perfect'..like written
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: I have cited the Women's March in Washington the day after Trump's inauguration as an example of the " Communion of Saints"
    Mickorod Renard: and the dificulties are part of a larger plan
    Bruce Mowbray: oh yes.
    Agatha Macbeth: When the saints go marching in
    Bruce Mowbray: Every path is perfect . . . and necessary.
    Bruce Mowbray: part of the Tao, if you will.
    Agatha Macbeth smiles
    Mickorod Renard: I believedthat is true, and can be tested by running time backwards of course
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Bruce Mowbray: I have never understood why some teachers ( like the hoopoe) stress the difficulty of having a divine experience.
    Bruce Mowbray: making it seem almost impossible.
    Agatha Macbeth: Entrance fee?
    Bruce Mowbray: yes something like that, aggers.
    Bruce Mowbray: a fee that is always too great for mere mortals....
    Storm Nordwind: I can think of cynical reasons, but they're possibly not what is intended in context ;)
    Agatha Macbeth: Or a funny handshake maybe
    Bruce Mowbray: well, there are people who fetishize handshakes.
    Mickorod Renard: I think the cynical reasons are perhaps the key to it
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
    Bruce Mowbray: I agree, Mick.
    Mickorod Renard: maybe cause and effect too
    Mickorod Renard: without cause there is no effect
    Bruce Mowbray: Joseph Campbell wrote, in his last published book, that the purpose of all established religion is to protect the worshipers from having an experience of God . . .
    Storm Nordwind: With everyone having a divine experience (because it was not impossible after all), what need is there for teachers? :)
    Bruce Mowbray: that's why there are liturgies . . . scripts . . . all sorts of protective devices . . .
    Bruce Mowbray: exactly, Storm.
    Agatha Macbeth: Think that's what the Albigensians said
    Bruce Mowbray: Albigensian Crusade. Albigensian Crusade, Crusade (1209–29) called by Pope Innocent III against the Cathari, a dualist religious movement in southern France that the Roman Catholic Church had branded heretical.
    Mickorod Renard: even if the cause is self caused or by exterior forces.............I actually thought that perhaps humans at least are programmed with a rescue program in case of crash..and it presents itself in this way
    Tura Brezoianu: If everyone is having divine experiences, who will do the work we depend on?
    Bruce Mowbray loves "rescue program"
    Storm Nordwind: It is possible to work and to experience the divine at the same time. We just don't need the self-proclaimed go-betweens, that's all!
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh workers have divine experiences too Tu <wink>
    Bruce Mowbray: perhaps the work itself is part of the experience, Tura.
    Tura Brezoianu: Not in this poem, though. Everything is demanded, and everything must be renounced.
    Bruce Mowbray: yes but in the end . . 30 birds!
    Mickorod Renard: I did go to church after I returned to the uk..all the folk there were great people and had their own stories but I couldn't relate to them
    Storm Nordwind: Indeed Tura.
    Agatha Macbeth: Maybe that's why nobody wants to go then
    Tura Brezoianu: The pauper in love with the King is beheaded for choosing exile over death.
    Storm Nordwind: Great compassion there :/
    Bruce Mowbray: parables tend to be hyperbolic....
    Mickorod Renard: yeh, thats a bit like the sacrifice of the son
    Tura Brezoianu: ...in the sense of whizzing past the sun and flying off into outer space
    Bruce Mowbray: Again, the poem is trying to say something that is inexpressible . . .
    Storm Nordwind: Do you think, Bruce? It seems to me it expresses its intent all too well.
    Bruce Mowbray: Those who speak about it don't know about it; those who know about it don't speak about it.
    Bruce Mowbray: but still the poem needs to be honored in its own right . . .
    Mickorod Renard: there is the need to trust..and of course there was a reference to how short life is anyway
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    Agatha Macbeth: Specially if you're a mayfly
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: but what a life!
    Bruce Mowbray: time for me to be scraping up supper
    Agatha Macbeth: Their minds must be concentrated wonderfully
    Mickorod Renard: I am convinced that for anything living it must be having fun or it would not carry on living..ie trees and flowers and cockroaches
    Agatha Macbeth: Scrape well Brucie
    Mickorod Renard: bye Bruce
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Tura Brezoianu: bye Bruce
    Tura Brezoianu: I don't think those have a choice
    Mickorod Renard: genetically they must have reproduced for a purpose
    Agatha Macbeth: To reproduce again presumably
    Mickorod Renard: these days ...now I dont need to re produce I dont look on women the same
    Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
    Mickorod Renard: well..I could do..at a push
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Agatha Macbeth pushes Mick
    Storm Nordwind: Sploosh
    Agatha Macbeth: He's fallen in da water!
    Mickorod Renard: but when I was younger there was only one purpose in life
    Mickorod Renard: now its mowing the lawn
    Agatha Macbeth: Well if you don't drink you had to enjoy something
    Storm Nordwind doesn't even have a lawn to mow ;)
    Mickorod Renard: yeh, actually I think i may take that up again
    Agatha Macbeth: Lucky you Stormy
    Mickorod Renard: Storm, thats living dangerous
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Mickorod Renard: one must have a purpose
    Storm Nordwind: why?
    Agatha Macbeth: My lawns drive me round the bend at this time of year
    Mickorod Renard: well, they used to run courses for those leaving for retirement
    Agatha Macbeth: Do by not doing?
    Storm Nordwind: They still do
    Mickorod Renard: as many had no hobbies and just dropped dead after a few weeks of beeing nagged by the wife
    Agatha Macbeth: Wives will do that to you
    Storm Nordwind: In my profile it says: "Δεν ελπίζω τίποτα. Δε φοβούμαι τίποτα. Είμαι λέφτερος." Which means, "I hope for nothing. I fear nothing. I am free."
    Mickorod Renard: it gives them purpose ..thats why they live longer
    Mickorod Renard: yayyy..actually I think thats what this story is leading to
    Agatha Macbeth: Retirement?
    Mickorod Renard: getting rid of my lawn
    Agatha Macbeth: Sounds like a plan
    Agatha Macbeth: Let's find the Simurgh and be grass free
    Mickorod Renard: ok guys, I had better go..thanks for the session and i hopewe can have another stab at this on Thursday
    Storm Nordwind: Thanks Mick!
    Agatha Macbeth: I hoopoe so too
    Storm Nordwind groans
    Mickorod Renard: grin, thankyou all..where was raffi..
    Tura Brezoianu: thanks all
    Tura Brezoianu: goodnight
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite
    Agatha Macbeth: Tatty bye
    Storm Nordwind waves</wink>

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    608.05 kB15:52, 8 May 2018Agatha MacBethActions
    Viewing 2 of 2 comments: view all
    I do hope to attend Thursday, but in general I won't be able to make Mondays. Thanks for looking for me! :) Love that Fleetwood Mac song! ::hums::: edited 16:45, 8 May 2018
    Posted 16:44, 8 May 2018
    I may have missed it but looked for mention of the line "Accept your luck, don't try to comprehend how this has happened." This seemed the grace part of the equation. Also, it is mainly a story of friendship and another where the proportion isn't the main matter but here that they are equal in offering. So there is another 'beyond formulas and logic" lesson. edited 22:08, 13 May 2018
    Posted 22:07, 13 May 2018
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