2018.05.22 12:00 - Dream Session: Interpreting Real Life as if a Dream

    Table of contents
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    Attending were Riddle,  Zen,  Tura,  Eliza,  Agatha,  Alma,  and you who are reading now. :)

    Riddle Sideways: Hey, Dreamer
    Riddle Sideways: s
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Riddle, Zen, Tura :) Great hat!
    Eliza Madrigal notices San has replaced lavender roses with red ones
    Riddle Sideways: nice pail
    Zen (Zen Arado): Hi Tura, Riddle, Eliza
    Tura Brezoianu: hi everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Hope we're all well and happy today?
    Riddle Sideways: probably ok, the plastic food container is sort of bubbled up
    Zen (Zen Arado): fine ty
    Eliza Madrigal: hm?
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, lunch time :)
    Riddle Sideways: oh yes!  Hi, this looks a good place for lunch
    Zen (Zen Arado): picnic
    Eliza Madrigal: dreamy spot for a picnic
    Zen (Zen Arado): sur l'herbe
    Zen (Zen Arado): :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Have just been listening to an audio book and wrote a note to share...
    Zen (Zen Arado): great
    Eliza Madrigal: It is sort of part of last week's session, and then we can repost your 'planning' notes, Zen?
    Zen (Zen Arado): ok but we used most of them? I bought his book and can post some notes from that too
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, great. You are reading so many authors!
    Zen (Zen Arado): too many books
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alma :)
    Riddle Sideways: hi Alma
    Zen (Zen Arado): Hi Alma
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): hi Eliza, Riddle, Tura, Zen :)
    To Begin
    Eliza Madrigal: So here's a quick note, to begin:
    Eliza Madrigal: Toward the end of Yuval Harari's 'Homo Deus', he begins musing on how humans have lost connection, on the whole, for senses like smell as a way of making decisions or as crucial life faculties. He says we've shifted the importance to entities and increasingly, to algorythms.
    Eliza Madrigal: The reason I bring this up here, is that he also includes dream practices in this category - that there has been little focus placed on learning about types and capacities of mind as designers lean more on information and data.
    Eliza Madrigal: Last week we focused on the question "Does your practice grow crops?" as a way of taking dream practice pretty seriously, or taking seriously that tribes and humans (as far as we know, humans mostly) have historically leaned into dreams for knowledge.
    Eliza Madrigal: So I thought to mention his mention. :) [done]
    Zen (Zen Arado): great Eliza
    Zen (Zen Arado): I have that book but not making much headway on it
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala) admires Tura's hat
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Zen (Zen Arado): it's like Tarts body wisdom
    Eliza Madrigal likes the phrase 'body wisdom'
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I think it relates to our culture's belief that dreams are not "real"
    Zen (Zen Arado): like gut feeling I suppose
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): if they are not real, then they must not be important
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Zen (Zen Arado): Hi Aggers
    Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): hi Agatha
    Tura Brezoianu: hi Ag
    Eliza Madrigal has given Agatha an IM with first part of the session
    Zen (Zen Arado): we're being taken over by big data
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't think we can say they are important or not important for 'the future' but the practice does highlight a sort of difference between info and knowledge - potentially
    Eliza Madrigal: anyway, not to spend much time on that but thought to share
    Eliza Madrigal looks to Zen

    Charles Morley Notes
    Zen (Zen Arado): not sure how much we covered last week
    Zen (Zen Arado): will post some points anyway
    Zen (Zen Arado): 

    Be kind in LD – you are treading own psychology
    LD is a ‘thin place
    Not controlling LD but choreographing the dream, dancing with the dream. Not using LD for frivolous purpose can lead to longer lucidity periods.
    Ask big questions in LD. What shall I do with my life? Show me something that needs healing. Meet your shadow aspects. Or just fly about and have fun. Meet your guides, angels. Do meditation. Heal physical body.
    Zen (Zen Arado): done
    Eliza Madrigal: ty
    Zen (Zen Arado): can add more later
    Eliza Madrigal: Does anyone have comments or reports? :)
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): not much. ... the dream world seems to be avoiding me lately
    Eliza Madrigal: aw
    Riddle Sideways: Riddle reports: New person record "none recalled" every day since last Tuesday
    Two 'Second Life' Dreams
    Zen (Zen Arado): I had two dreams last night
    Eliza Madrigal: perhaps there are different phases (soil prep, etc)
    Eliza Madrigal: none at all Riddle? hm
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): it does seem to go in cycles
    Zen (Zen Arado): one dream featured Eliza
    Agatha Macbeth: I had a semi lucid dream involving Prokofy on Sunday night :P
    Eliza Madrigal: yay (I hope)
    Riddle Sideways listens
    Zen (Zen Arado): well I did something I shouldn't have in SL
    Zen (Zen Arado): don't know what it was
    Agatha Macbeth: How do you know you did it then?
    Zen (Zen Arado): and Eliza was annoyed at me because I didn't try to make amends
    Zen (Zen Arado): done
    Eliza Madrigal: ah gee
    Agatha Macbeth: She never gets angry
    Zen (Zen Arado): sorry Eliza :)
    Riddle Sideways: bet you know and won't say ;))))
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Zen (Zen Arado): no it was more about Eliza
    Zen (Zen Arado): and feeling guilty
    Zen (Zen Arado): I guess
    Eliza Madrigal: will have to think about that :) Thanks Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: sorry to make you feel guilty
    Agatha Macbeth: Guilty as charged
    Eliza Madrigal: did it have to do with the word WE?
    Zen (Zen Arado): nah I probably deserve it
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Zen (Zen Arado): :)
    Riddle Sideways: ㋡
    Agatha Macbeth: Right, don't say we
    Eliza Madrigal: Agatha, want to say more about prokofy?
    Agatha Macbeth: Yeh it was weird
    Zen (Zen Arado): could be SL
    Agatha Macbeth: The oddest part is it was RL Prok too
    Zen (Zen Arado): I always worry a bit how people are reacting to what I say
    Agatha Macbeth: We were sitting in front of a monitor watching something
    Zen (Zen Arado): cos no visual cues
    Agatha Macbeth: Dunno what
    Zen (Zen Arado): listens
    Agatha Macbeth: She was probably ranting about Woodbury again or something :P
    Agatha Macbeth: I remember thinking 'THis is a dream'
    Agatha Macbeth: And that was it
    Eliza Madrigal: that's fantastic!
    Agatha Macbeth: WEIRD
    Zen (Zen Arado): yes
    Eliza Madrigal: are you dreaming more/recalling more in general??
    Zen (Zen Arado): what is Woodbury?
    Agatha Macbeth: Not really
    Agatha Macbeth: But I remember thinking 'I should tell Mick'
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm a little out of my depth here... can you give a bit more background to this character/person?
    Agatha Macbeth: Prok?
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Agatha Macbeth: I thought everybody in SL knew about her
    Eliza Madrigal: not much
    Zen (Zen Arado): not me
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): nor I
    Tura Brezoianu: I'm vaguely aware that everyone hates her, maybe for good reason, but that's all
    Riddle Sideways: Prokofy Nev
    Agatha Macbeth: A large scale landowner and renter
    Agatha Macbeth: Also an infamously polemic blogger
    Agatha Macbeth: Has a talent for annoying people
    Riddle Sideways: Tweets tooo much also
    Agatha Macbeth: Right
    Agatha Macbeth: God only knows why I'd dream about her :p
    Agatha Macbeth: More like a nightmare!
    Eliza Madrigal: really interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe thinking about the character of SL
    Agatha Macbeth: Google Woodbury University or The Wrong Hands sometime it's really entertaining
    Agatha Macbeth: If quite crazy
    Eliza Madrigal: :) noted
    Subconscious trying to break through?
    Zen (Zen Arado): do you think our subconscious is trying to speak to us through our dreams?
    Agatha Macbeth: Well Jung thought so
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure, but it is the placeholder idea
    Zen (Zen Arado): so should spend more time trying to interpret?
    Agatha Macbeth: I miss Max and Fox for this
    Agatha Macbeth: They were so knowledgeable
    Riddle Sideways: Twice banned en masse by Linden Lab, refugees of the now-illegal Woodbury University group are reappearing in Second Life, using new new sims.
    Eliza Madrigal: we're missing a gifted spotter of patterns and questions in Luci too
    Zen (Zen Arado): but perhaps only oneself can get the message?
    Eliza Madrigal: Huh. Ty Riddle
    Agatha Macbeth: They've been banned about five times I think
    Interpreting/Not Interpreting
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): was it Jung or Freud who said, "An uninterpreted dream is like an unopened letter"?
    Zen (Zen Arado): interesting Alma
    Agatha Macbeth: A long running guerilla war with the Lindens
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm willing to spend more time with interpretations, but have leaned away from it for a few reasons...
    Zen (Zen Arado): I see obvious dreamsigns but go on blithley unaware
    Eliza Madrigal: mainly, the time we have, and that the idea was more to encourage our personal practice - logging and unfolding/interpreting more overall
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I'm more interested in lucidity practice than in interpretation right now
    Eliza Madrigal: my feeling too mostly
    Eliza Madrigal: I do see fruit in my own practice
    Riddle Sideways: yes, am too
    Interpreting RL like you would a dream...
    Zen (Zen Arado): but perhaps won't get lucid if I ignore messages?
    Tura Brezoianu: I wonder if you can interpret real life like you would interpret a dream?
    Eliza Madrigal: certainly should not ignore them :)
    Eliza Madrigal: please say more Tura, have you tried that?
    Tura Brezoianu: Meanings under the surface.
    Riddle Sideways: so often mis-interpret RL
    Tura Brezoianu: Just an idea that occurred to me right now
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): Tura, that is actually an interesting exercise
    Zen (Zen Arado): maybe spend too much time interpreting RL
    Zen (Zen Arado): other way round?
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): imagine that you are dreaming while you are awake, and ask yourself what this would mean if it were a dream
    Tura Brezoianu: If this (looking around at RL) was a dream, what would it mean?
    Eliza Madrigal: right
    Tura Brezoianu: Exactly Alma
    Eliza Madrigal: or 'what might I do differently if this were a dream?"
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh I remember looking at my hands in the dream like you said
    Agatha Macbeth: You were right
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): that is actually a good way of reawakening a sense of meaning and magic in our "real" world
    Eliza Madrigal: aha Agatha, I had that breakthrough this week too!
    Agatha Macbeth whispers: Woot :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Synchronicity
    Eliza Madrigal: I sometimes can't tell the difference between buddhist practice and dream practice... but I often step back and let 'things' decouple, if that makes sense
    Agatha Macbeth: Deconstruction?
    Eliza Madrigal: It seems similar to questioning "Is this a dream" in RL
    Eliza Madrigal: or just letting the situation present in a new way
    Eliza Madrigal: rearrange
    We Dreaming
    Zen (Zen Arado): 'Are WE Dreaming' is one of my songs :)
    Eliza Madrigal: !!
    Eliza Madrigal: WE, lol
    Riddle Sideways: said the WE word
    Zen (Zen Arado): :)
    Zen (Zen Arado): sorry
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): is "we" a banned word?
    Zen (Zen Arado): group reality check
    Zen (Zen Arado): it's form an old incident Alma
    Eliza Madrigal: it almost was once... or at least was questioned as being imposing
    Agatha Macbeth smiles
    Zen (Zen Arado): A guy got annoyed at me always saying 'we'
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): so, we should never say "we"? :P
    Eliza Madrigal: if someone as a way of speaking says "we are seeking ___" etc.
    Agatha Macbeth: Hehe
    Riddle Sideways: Assuming
    Zen (Zen Arado): he didn't feel like a 'we'
    Eliza Madrigal nods... dialoging this way needs a big measure of benefit of the doubt with one another
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I can understand that
    Eliza Madrigal: so the question was neat, but the annoyance maybe a bit strong
    Eliza Madrigal shrugs
    Zen (Zen Arado): so must try not to be too inclusive
    Zen (Zen Arado): 'I' must
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): speak for oneself
    Zen (Zen Arado): :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Riddle Sideways: yes, it is hard enough to speak for oneself
    Zen (Zen Arado): true
    Eliza Madrigal: quite
    Zen (Zen Arado): never mind others
    Eliza Madrigal: but that's also why we need to be generous with our ears :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Ear ear
    Eliza Madrigal: have something to share about practice this week
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala) listens
    Riddle Sideways: oh good
    Zen (Zen Arado): listens
    Eliza Madrigal: noted on wiki: Dream 2 - Just before waking, someone clearly saying to me that I need to use my hands more, when I talk.  
    [Note much greater traction/sense of intention met, in dreams during the last week. Turning point may be really doing the before-bed 'play' of writing or drawing or hands-gazing (like I did before falling asleep before the dreams above) we've been learning together in sessions over the last year]
    Eliza Madrigal: I knew, about the hands, that using them more in RL would affect dreams as well   [done]
    Zen (Zen Arado): ah I see
    Zen (Zen Arado): can't use hands in SL
    Eliza Madrigal: making a bridge
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): haha, will our dreams be upgraded to Bento?
    Riddle Sideways: ㋡
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Agatha Macbeth: Bendy dreams
    Riddle Sideways: first 2 uses for Bento hands were smoking and giving the finger
    Riddle Sideways: great uses
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, humanity... uh, er...
    Zen (Zen Arado): can use anims I guess
    Riddle Sideways: wear an AO when going to sleep
    Zen (Zen Arado): like a hud with hand gestures
    Self-remembering (see current "99 Days" entries on wiki, for background)
    Eliza Madrigal: I like the idea of focusing more on 'RL dream' practice. Would that relate to the 'self-remembering' practice too?
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I am trying to think of how to combine self-remembering and lucidity practice
    Eliza Madrigal: Could challenge oneself... dare oneself? "What would dream me do?"
    Zen (Zen Arado): waking up is kinda like lucid dreaming in RL?
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): yes, Zen
    Zen (Zen Arado): only in RL I mean
    Eliza Madrigal: at least knocking on the doors?
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): sometimes, self-remembering has the same kind of "feel" to it as becoming lucid in a dream
    Zen (Zen Arado): one should help the other
    Eliza Madrigal: that's what I'm wondering, Alma
    Eliza Madrigal: what IS that 'feel'
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): kind of like everything suddenly seems more present, vivid, and real
    Zen (Zen Arado): Morley says 'The good news is that anybody can learn to lucid dream. In fact, we don’t even really need to learn, we just need to remember. This is because we’ve all been great lucid dreamers in the past. Every child is a lucid dreamer – the adult’s task is merely to relearn the skill. Children naturally have lucid dreams.9 Why? I believe it is connected to creativity. Children are naturally right-brain dominant, meaning they are attuned to the creative, imaginative, intuitive side of their brain. But as they grow up, they switch sides to the more logical, calculating, left-brain dominance of adulthood. '
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): kind of an "oh, wow" feeling
    Zen (Zen Arado): so it's more like unlearning all the logical concepts?
    Agatha Macbeth: Erk
    Zen (Zen Arado): but I don't remember lucid dreaming as a child
    Riddle Sideways: Eliza?
    Agatha Macbeth: Gorn
    Agatha Macbeth: Crashed
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): the first lucid dream I remember was when I was a teenager
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): hmmm, I think Eliza woke up
    Zen (Zen Arado): :)
    Riddle Sideways: yes ㋡
    Tura Brezoianu: I didn't have lucid dreams as a child either
    Agatha Macbeth: WB
    Zen (Zen Arado): wb Eliza
    Riddle Sideways: Eliza fell back into this dream
    Agatha Macbeth: Maybe George jumped on the keyboard
    Eliza Madrigal: ty! power surge :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Not another storm I hope
    Eliza Madrigal: ahhhh, ahhha
    Zen (Zen Arado): did you get that bit I posted Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: read the news today oh boy... (sorry). Can someone please send me the log patch later?
    Eliza Madrigal: No Zen
    Eliza Madrigal listening attentively
    Agatha Macbeth: I'll put it on a NC for you (sans timestamps)
    Eliza Madrigal: ty! <3
    Agatha Macbeth: ♥
    Zen (Zen Arado): He says 'every child'
    Zen (Zen Arado): big claim
    Eliza Madrigal: ty, not sure I agree... have met some literal children in my time
    Zen (Zen Arado): maybe we didn't know we were lucid dreaming?
    Zen (Zen Arado): nah I think I would remember
    Eliza Madrigal: my lines were fuzzy as a child... was mostly imaginary, so can't judge very well
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth ponders fuzzy lines
    Zen (Zen Arado): it was a long time ago for me :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Fuzzy logic
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): to realize you are dreaming, you first have to have grasp that there is a difference between waking and dreaming. I wonder at what age that understanding first comes
    Eliza Madrigal: but it felt pretty close to psychology research, in that dissociative = make imaginary friends to play with or blame for things, to play out what you wanted to do but couldn't
    Zen (Zen Arado): nods
    Eliza Madrigal: hard question Alma, he suggested with school there is a shift
    Eliza Madrigal: Who will frame homework this week? Shall we take Tura's suggestion?
    Zen (Zen Arado): education soon stamps out the fires of creativity
    Eliza Madrigal: really want to make time for a session when Luci can attend
    Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
    Zen (Zen Arado): sure
    Riddle Sideways: Yes, let's do what Tura said ...   please to remind what that was?
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Agatha Macbeth: The prophet Tura
    Eliza Madrigal: Dreaming in RL practice
    Riddle Sideways: oh Yes!
    Eliza Madrigal: we could blend with our other ongoing practices very well I think
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): interpret your waking life as if it is a dream
    Eliza Madrigal: ty Alma, nicely encapsulated
    Zen (Zen Arado): sounds like self-remembering
    Eliza Madrigal: So, looking for moments to do that
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): that is very close to a Buddhist practice, which is to "regard all dharmas as dreams"
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): (dharmas = phenomena)
    Eliza Madrigal nods, you're right ... a lojong
    Zen (Zen Arado): Lojong yes
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): yes
    Eliza Madrigal: perfect
    Eliza Madrigal: quite meaty practice
    Agatha Macbeth: THought that was a kind of tea
    Eliza Madrigal: :) oolong practice
    Zen (Zen Arado): we used to do those in 'Ways of Knowing' group
    Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
    Zen (Zen Arado): long time ago
    Riddle Sideways: way back
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): so many practices
    Eliza Madrigal: things are really lovely now, too
    Riddle Sideways: Phenomenology
    Zen (Zen Arado): yeh too many practices
    Tura Brezoianu: Just looked up the wikipedia page on lojong. A lot of interesting stuff there

    Agatha Macbeth: Could never say that
    Riddle Sideways: right! could not say that either
    Eliza Madrigal: we only scratched the surface back then with lojong, worth revisiting honestly
    Eliza Madrigal: I love the way it is all integrating and rearranging and playing out now
    Zen (Zen Arado): form of mind training Tibetan Buddhism
    Agatha Macbeth: Can barely spell it in fact
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): Phenomenologololgology
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Agatha Macbeth: That's the one
    Eliza Madrigal: that's a mix of google and phenomenology
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I have done lojong in the past. it takes a while to get through all the slogans
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd like to look at more of them more deeply... I think we sort of individually picked a few
    Zen (Zen Arado): yeh
    Eliza Madrigal: my favorite is "Don't worry, there is nothing real about your confusion."
    Eliza Madrigal: just so funny
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I have a couple of books with commentaries on all the slogans
    Zen (Zen Arado): ah good one
    Zen (Zen Arado): Pema Chodron was good on them
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): yes, I have her book
    Eliza Madrigal: would love to hear more about everyone's practices and studies
    Zen (Zen Arado): she is a very sensible woman
    Eliza Madrigal: I read in a log that Bertram wanted to have a few sessions on  'Being', so I reached out but haven't heard back yet
    Zen (Zen Arado): oh?
    Agatha Macbeth: I'm still in his group
    Eliza Madrigal: he mentioned to Wol
    Eliza Madrigal: it would be picking up from where Amsterdam left off
    Zen (Zen Arado): not meditation?
    Eckhart Tolle, Gurus, Practices
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): Eckhart Tolle has some practices that are similar to self-remembering, so I am trying to fold some of that into my practice too
    Eliza Madrigal: nice to come from several angles at once sometimes
    Zen (Zen Arado): don't remember him giving much in way of praactices
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): he is not very structured, but he does offer some practices for bringing awareness into the present moment
    Eliza Madrigal: I like his interpretations of biblical ideas like "new heaven and earth"
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): Actually, one of them is to put your awareness into your hands
    Eliza Madrigal: oh?
    Zen (Zen Arado): might be better to just look into my owm experience and forget all the gurus
    Zen (Zen Arado): ah yes remember that
    Eliza Madrigal: curious
    Zen (Zen Arado): I read all hs books but long time ago
    Eliza Madrigal: 'awareness of awareness' practices
    Agatha Macbeth: He's very good
    Zen (Zen Arado): remember the 'pain body'
    Eliza Madrigal: the pain body teachings actually come from Bon ... super helpful to being compassionate toward people I think
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I think he is giving people practices more now than he did at first, maybe because people kept asking for them
    Zen (Zen Arado): but practice was just to become aware of it
    Eliza Madrigal: I haven't heard much new from him... more behind a pay wall these days?
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): yes, he has a big pay site, which is a bit off-putting
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): he is doing a lot of live programs in different places
    Eliza Madrigal: but I guess makes people serious too... if they invest in a regular study/practice with him
    Zen (Zen Arado): last think of his I saw was a video of him being interviewed walking through Stanley Park in Vancouver

    (musical interlude)
    Agatha Macbeth: Money talks but it don't sing and dance and it can't walk
    Eliza Madrigal: as long as I can have you here with me....
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Mmmm
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed

    Eliza Madrigal: would be a worthwhile live event I'm sure
    Zen (Zen Arado): he is very entertaining as well
    Zen (Zen Arado): good sense of humour
    Agatha Macbeth: That always helps
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): very straightforward
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Riddle Sideways: should get a live program in the theater
    Zen (Zen Arado): but I start to think they all say basically the same thing
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): they do, Zen, in different ways
    Agatha Macbeth: Maybe they're right then :P
    Zen (Zen Arado): same teachings have been floating around for centuries
    Eliza Madrigal nods... but each of us is listening for different things
    Zen (Zen Arado): they just repackage them in more assimilable forms
    Agatha Macbeth: The idea filter
    Zen (Zen Arado): assimillable
    Tura Brezoianu: I'd be suspicious if they didn't seem the same.
    Zen (Zen Arado): proud of that word :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I can hear the same thing from 10 people but it only 'stick' after hearing from someone, or in the context of that sort of, base
    Eliza Madrigal: I think that's why people make distinction for root guru, etc...
    Eliza Madrigal: it is like an imprint
    Eliza Madrigal: which doesn't mean never question or that they aren't human but...
    Eliza Madrigal: it is kind of like mother's voice or something maybe :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Maybe
    Zen (Zen Arado): some are charlatans only in it for money I think
    Eliza Madrigal: sure, or they felt they had to go that way because there was no other role for them, then it became something iffy?
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): for me it is valuable to look across multiple traditions. when I hear the same thing being said from very different sources, it stands out more clearly
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: we're also very fortunate in our time
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): and every tradition has its blind spots
    Zen (Zen Arado): if you have read enough books any of us could set ourselves as gurus
    Eliza Madrigal: or hoopoes
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen (Zen Arado): spend a year or two in India first...
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't quite think that's true but... to a certain extent :)
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): does spending 10 years in SL count?
    Agatha Macbeth: Do they have hoopoes in India?
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha Alma
    Eliza Madrigal: how many hours clocked?
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): if they have hoopoes in Hawaii, would they be hula hoopoes?
    Zen (Zen Arado): but gurus always have to distance themselves from ordinary herd some way
    Agatha Macbeth: OMG
    Eliza Madrigal: guru hula hoopoes
    Riddle Sideways: ggggggggggggroin
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Ways of learning, free will, self, and prophets
    Eliza Madrigal: feel very thankful for teachers honestly, but the traditional ways of learning are all turned on their heads now maybe
    Riddle Sideways: yes, can't whack them with rulers anymore
    Zen (Zen Arado): most of the modern guys just learned from Nisargadatta, Maharshi, Krishnamurti etc
    Eliza Madrigal: still can whack with bamboo in some contexts :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I heard a Krishnamurti (I think) quote recently, in a context of a discussion on free will... very much a modern question
    Eliza Madrigal: he was suggesting that choice only arises out of confusion
    Agatha Macbeth: Land of confusion
    Zen (Zen Arado): he never made much sense to me
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I read Krishnamurti a lot way back when. .. found him both tantalizing and frustrating
    Eliza Madrigal: was interesting to hear blend of modern/traditional insight
    Zen (Zen Arado): intentionally I think
    Zen (Zen Arado): yes Alma ..same
    Tura Brezoianu: In "The Teachers of Gurdjieff" someone is quoted making that point, that choice arises from confusion, that clear insight leads directly to right action without the need of "choosing".
    Zen (Zen Arado): I like Joan Tollifson
    Agatha Macbeth: Yay
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): Alan Watts was my first entry into this whole kind of teaching
    Zen (Zen Arado): yes Watts was good
    Eliza Madrigal: Tura, thank you! That's indeed the insight
    Eliza Madrigal: 'choiceless awareness'
    Agatha Macbeth: Told you she's a prophet
    Zen (Zen Arado): I don't think that 'I' have any choices
    Zen (Zen Arado): just pushed along by my nature/nurture
    Agatha Macbeth: I am the walrus
    Eliza Madrigal: Harari focuses on different selves making different choices
    Eliza Madrigal: for same person :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Thought was the capital of Zimbabwe
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: I better go.... figure out dinner
    Agatha Macbeth: Lemme give you that notecard
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I need to get on with my day too
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): great discussion
    Riddle Sideways: what shall We have for supper
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks everyone <3 for being here and yes! thanks for that too
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): WE
    Zen (Zen Arado): thanks everybody
    Eliza Madrigal grins at Riddle
    Eliza Madrigal: the royal we
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks Agatha!
    Zen (Zen Arado): byee
    Agatha Macbeth: Feel free to take out the extraneous bits
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): bye all, have a dreamy week
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Tura Brezoianu: thanks all, bye
    Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
    Agatha Macbeth: TC
    Riddle Sideways: by All
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