2018.05.29 12:00 - Dream Session: Ever More Aware of the Waking Dream

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    Attending this session were Zen, Alma, Riddle, Storm, Agatha, Raffi, and Eliza.
    Pharoah's daughter finds Moses in the basket
    Marc Chagall, 1966
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey Mr DJ...
    Zen (Zen Arado): :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen (Zen Arado): Hi Miss submerged
    Zen (Zen Arado): :)
    Eliza Madrigal: oh dear
    Eliza Madrigal: well I do like subtext
    Eliza Madrigal: fixed?
    Zen (Zen Arado): yep
    Zen (Zen Arado): it's usually AO does that
    Eliza Madrigal nods... I rarely turn off the AO before I sit
    Eliza Madrigal: but I wonder why I don't see it
    Zen (Zen Arado): I just turn AO off and on again
    Zen (Zen Arado): don't know
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal waves hello to Alma
    Zen (Zen Arado): Hi Alma :)
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): hi Zen, Eliza, Storm, Raffila
    Zen (Zen Arado): Hi Siorm :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm, Raffi :)
    Raffila Millgrove: Hello everyone.
    Zen (Zen Arado): Hi Raffi :)
    Storm Nordwind: Hi everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: good to see everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I think we have the best spot here, next to this amazing tree behind us
    Zen (Zen Arado): I might have to leave a bit early cos careworkwrs are coming early they tell me
    Eliza Madrigal: Ok, good they gave you a heads up this time
    Eliza Madrigal: Want to go ahead and begin then? I'll give anyone who arrives a note
    Zen (Zen Arado): ok it's just a bit about Dreaming and Mindfulness
    Zen (Zen Arado): A lot of the lucid dreaming workshops and retreats that I run take place at Buddhist centres and I have found that practising meditators have a much higher rate of lucid dreams than non-meditators, with some of them having spontaneous lucid dreams on a weekly basis. This is because mindful awareness during the day directly translates into mindful awareness during dreams. In fact one of the original lucid dream induction techniques (and one that we will learn more about in Part II) is mindfulness meditation.

    Zen (Zen Arado): Mindfulness of Dream & Sleep is essentially about bringing mindful awareness into all stages of our sleep cycle, allowing us to make use of the full 30 years we spend asleep, rather than just the six years we spend dreaming. By developing our training across all phases of sleep, rather than just within the lucid dream state, we can offer a far more holistic and wide-ranging system with benefits that extend well beyond our dream world into our waking life.

    Zen (Zen Arado): Much like lucid dreaming, Mindfulness of Dream & Sleep may sound like a paradox, because we are so accustomed to thinking of dream and sleep as unmindful processes. However, it is possible to be aware during most periods of dream and sleep, and this awareness will paradoxically lead to more refreshing and beneficial sleep. The ultimate aim is to allow mindful awareness to gently infuse all stages of our sleep cycle. This leads to a deep deconditioning process that will also permeate our waking state, allowing us to ‘wake up’ to life with more awareness and to live as we dream: lucidly.
    Morley, Charlie. Dreams of Awakening: Lucid Dreaming and Mindfulness of Dream and Sleep (Kindle Locations 323-325). Hay House Uk. Kindle Edition.
    Zen (Zen Arado): done

    Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful excerpt, thank you
    Eliza Madrigal: Seems a good aim
    Eliza Madrigal: It is interesting how here, and in our 99 Days adventure, we seem to be lining up similar terms
    Zen (Zen Arado): yes
    Eliza Madrigal: bringing teachings/emphasis from various places into one spot together
    Zen (Zen Arado): becoming ever more aware of waking dream
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Riddle :) Sending you an IM
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): different ways of hunting the same quarry.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: I've kept at a distance from 'mindfulness' as a term
    Eliza Madrigal: don't seem bothered by it in this context though
    Zen (Zen Arado): It has become difficult to define
    Zen (Zen Arado): so many different interpretations of it
    Homework :)
    Eliza Madrigal: How did everyone do with looking for lucid moments in waking life?
    Zen (Zen Arado): I'm not sure
    Zen (Zen Arado): it's hard to judge yourself
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): it was interesting, when I remembered to do it
    Zen (Zen Arado): I liked Tart's  idea of working in a group and they can tell you if you are being mindful or not
    Eliza Madrigal: that could get complicated :)
    Zen (Zen Arado): well you did it politely that is :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Can you recall any instances to share, Alma?
    Eliza Madrigal waves hello to Aggers
    Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): well, I was walking in the woods, and asked myself, "if I am dreaming, what does all this signify ... the trees and all the green growing things?"
    Agatha Macbeth: Sorry I'm late
    Zen (Zen Arado): Hi Aggers
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Zenny
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): that made me look around more carefully, and ponder what I was seeing
    Zen (Zen Arado): my care workers daydream a lot
    Zen (Zen Arado): you can see it
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I didn't really get an answer, but just a sense of it all being meaningful and magical in a way that I don't usually experience
    Eliza Madrigal whispers: very nice
    Zen (Zen Arado): some people suddenly get a sense of the magic of everything the first time they do some long meditation
    Zen (Zen Arado): because their mind has slowed down enough for the first time in their life
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): if you are dreaming, then you know that everything you see has some meaning coming from your own mind. ... Seeing waking reality that same way is intriguing
    Eliza Madrigal: Is it like zooming in?
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): like, "its not just random stuff, it means something"
    Eliza Madrigal: ah :)
    Riddle Sideways: hard to see waking life as everything is important and has meanings
    Eliza Madrigal: or as all playing together somehow
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): yes
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): it seems more alive
    Eliza Madrigal: like anything could happen
    Agatha Macbeth: Liz and Alma are in perfect sync :p
    Zen (Zen Arado): :-)
    Riddle Sideways: Storm is too
    Agatha Macbeth: He's about a second behind
    Eliza Madrigal: are we dancin'?
    Eliza Madrigal: "are ye askin'?" is the answer to that I think ;-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Rhythm of the universe
    Riddle Sideways: dancin' around the dreams
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): too bad we don't have a ctrl-S key to sync animations in RL
    Eliza Madrigal: funny when it happens spontaneously
    Zen (Zen Arado): my mother was the most unmindful person I ever met
    Zen (Zen Arado): any of you know people like that?
    Eliza Madrigal: is there something specific that makes you think that?
    Zen (Zen Arado): She was  always miles away
    Agatha Macbeth: IN Dublin?
    Zen (Zen Arado): yes she had glazed eyes and you had to ask her something twice
    Zen (Zen Arado): Belfast
    Eliza Madrigal: Is that what you think the caregivers are experiencing, when you say they are daydreaming?
    Agatha Macbeth: Sounds like me
    Storm Nordwind: Depends on your definition of 'mindful' but I certainly know someone who's miles away all the time. It's a defence mechanism for them, stemming from years of abuse.
    Zen (Zen Arado): I keep the care workers talking a lot though
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen (Zen Arado): they say I talk too much
    Zen (Zen Arado): I remember doing boring jobs in engineering factories and there was nothing to occupy your mind so daydreaming was inevitable
    Agatha Macbeth: That's when accidents happen!
    Zen (Zen Arado): exactly
    Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes I have to make an effort to tune in, even with my quite loved and liked 'children'
    Zen (Zen Arado): I nearly chopped off a hand one time
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I used to amaze one of my coworkers with my ability to start falling asleep in boring meetings while still keeping track of the conversation.
    Storm Nordwind: Mindful action reminds me of the Alexander Technique. I once knew some people who were teachers.
    Zen (Zen Arado): @handy skill
    Eliza Madrigal: that must be why you're fairly good at this stuff, Alma :))
    Agatha Macbeth: What's that Stormy?
    Zen (Zen Arado): yes storm?
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): hmmm ... boring meetings as a spiritual practice?
    Eliza Madrigal: "why not"
    Eliza Madrigal clicks
    Storm Nordwind: " an educational process that was created to retrain habitual patterns of movement and posture. "
    Zen (Zen Arado): I've heard that but never investigated it
     Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I worked with an Alexander technique teacher for a little while, many years ago
    Storm Nordwind: What I've seen of it from a close friend is very very good
    Eliza Madrigal: that seems quite important , embodiment
    Zen (Zen Arado): you can make meetings or interesting by examining each person in the meeting – their reactions and body movements et cetera
    Agatha Macbeth: Interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: I think this is where I lack most in life... that I live in my head not whole body
    Zen (Zen Arado): doesn't tai chi increase bodily awareness?
    Storm Nordwind: yes
    Zen (Zen Arado): or any martial art
    Storm Nordwind: Tai chi is wonderful for poise
    Eliza Madrigal: Is Alexander Technique similar?
    Eliza Madrigal: Tai Chi I think of as moving meditation
    Storm Nordwind: To Tai Chi? Not from what I've seen
    Agatha Macbeth: AT to do with posture?
    Zen (Zen Arado): ITS a bit like Kinhin
    [2018/05/29 12:25]  Storm Nordwind: Tai Chi when slow is indeed a moving meditation. Speed it up and it becomes a dance. Speed it up further it's a martial art.
    [2018/05/29 12:25]  Zen (Zen Arado): walking meditation
    [2018/05/29 12:25]  Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): Alexander technique is about relearning how you do basic bodily movements, like standing and sitting, to reduce stress on joints and muscles
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, wonder if it is related to what my daughter is learning in occ therapy, "age is in the spine"
    Storm Nordwind: Count the vertebrae to see how old she is? ;-)
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): could be. AT pays a lot of attention to the spine
    Agatha Macbeth: Erk
    Eliza Madrigal: :) flexibility, stability
    Zen (Zen Arado): sits up straight
    Agatha Macbeth: I'm awful at sitting still
    Zen (Zen Arado): actually sitting in a wheelchair is good for the posture
    Zen (Zen Arado): most people seem to slouch in armchairs
    Agatha Macbeth: Hope I never have to find out
    Eliza Madrigal: I slouch a lot at the desk sometimes
    Zen (Zen Arado): a wheelchair is a chair especially made for you
    Eliza Madrigal: fitted to your proportions
    Zen (Zen Arado): exactly and people who don't use them don't have that advantage
    Storm Nordwind: I see a lot of people in sip-and-puff chairs who really don't have much choice in their posture. Makes me appreciate what I have.
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): a friend of mine who has cerebral palsy just got a new wheel chair, and it they had to spend a long time making adjustments to fit it to her so that she could be comfortable
    Zen (Zen Arado): sip and puff?
    Eliza Madrigal: I actually didn't know that each one is fitted, that's great
    Storm Nordwind: Mouth control by breath in a tube for quadraplegics
    Zen (Zen Arado): Ah I see
    Storm Nordwind: Wife works at Craig Hospital. Major rehab hospital for spine and traumatic brain injury
    Wicker Basket
    Eliza Madrigal: I wonder if those of you who have studied tai chi or AT, or spinning like the sufis, or shamanic dancing.... are more bodily alive in dreams. Spinning is one of the techniques to stay lucid for longer, after all.
    Eliza Madrigal: hard to compare, we don't exactly have tools to do that :)
    Riddle Sideways: hmm,  wondering too
    Zen (Zen Arado): Morley says that we move all the time in dreams
    Zen (Zen Arado): I had a strange dream last night
    Riddle Sideways listens
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): in some dreams I don't even have a body, I'm just a spectator
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala) listens
    Eliza Madrigal: (me too)
    Zen (Zen Arado): a man opened a huge wicker basket
    Zen (Zen Arado): and inside it a man was lying on the bottom  sleeping
    Zen (Zen Arado): the man got out the basket  and said he had been hibernating  or something and said it was great to be back in the world again
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): wow!
    Zen (Zen Arado): then the other man climbed into the basket and pulled a blanket over himself
    Zen (Zen Arado): done
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: how peculiar!
    Eliza Madrigal: any ideas about it?
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): that seems very meaningful
    Storm Nordwind: Day shift over. Time for the night shift. :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Riddle Sideways: yep
    Zen (Zen Arado): maybe something about releasing a different part of myself  or something
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala) nods
    Eliza Madrigal: like two of you day/night?
    Zen (Zen Arado): don't know
    Storm Nordwind: Do you feel that's happening in your life at the moment Zen?
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): waking up after a long time asleep
    Zen (Zen Arado): I don't know storm. I think you only see these things in retrospect?
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): the title of Tart's book is "Waking Up"
    Storm Nordwind: Sometimes Zen. Some other times there's a feeling of change in the air, presaging something about to happen.
    Eliza Madrigal: potentials
    Zen (Zen Arado): I'm not sure I ever notice that
    Eliza Madrigal: Often my dreams are just seeing some concept I'm focusing on in general, in picture form
    Eliza Madrigal: does make me wonder how it might relate to your focuses lately
    Reading/Scanning Dream Journals
    Eliza Madrigal: lots of my dreams are about taking pictures, not taking pictures, what makes a worthy picture, etc.  Noticed this when scanning the last dream journal. Is everyone keeping that practice?
    Zen (Zen Arado): yes I am
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): yes
    Zen (Zen Arado): I need to have another look through my dream logs
    Zen (Zen Arado): how do you interpret that Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: it was interesting... could see a kind of question underneath the pattern, what is worth sharing?
    Eliza Madrigal: also, that it isn't necessary to share everything
    Eliza Madrigal: so, discernment
    Eliza Madrigal: how fun not to capture things, intentionally
    Eliza Madrigal: and trust the larger flow...see that a lot
    Zen (Zen Arado): How is it anything to do with keeping up appearances?
    Agatha Macbeth: Know the flow as you go
    Eliza Madrigal: well I'm never in the photos
    Eliza Madrigal: but like the rose dream, there were two roses, and I chose to photograph just one
    Eliza Madrigal: the lucid one, I left
    Keeping Up Appearances
    Zen (Zen Arado): I think that is a very common thing with us
    Zen (Zen Arado): we worry about how we appear to others so much
    Agatha Macbeth: But why?
    Zen (Zen Arado): as I get older and more disabled I seem to care less
    Zen (Zen Arado): but it's still there
    Agatha Macbeth hugs Zenny
    Storm Nordwind: If we understood precisely how many seconds thought they actually gave to our appearance, I suspect we'd give up!
    Zen (Zen Arado): :-)
    Zen (Zen Arado): yes it's so stupid really
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: that's one reason I question Tart's guidance to have others say when we're being mindful, but I'm hearing that out of context
    Moses and Sargon the Great
    Storm Nordwind is meanwhile still thinking about "who sleeps in a wicker basket anyway?" and recalling the biblical story of baby Moses...
    Eliza Madrigal: oooh
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I think evolution programs us to care what others think of us, as a way of ensuring group cohesion
    Eliza Madrigal: or snakes :)
    Zen (Zen Arado): :-) never thought about Moses
    Riddle Sideways: ㋡
    Agatha Macbeth: The Moses story is almost word for word the same as that of Sargon the Great
    Eliza Madrigal nods Alma, everyone 'cares' but maybe about different aspects or qualities others might see
    Agatha Macbeth: Coincidence eh
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): Eliza, Tart says that it takes a fairly advanced teacher to judge when someone else is being mindful, and even then there are pitfalls and dangers
    Zen (Zen Arado): Sargon the Great?
    Eliza Madrigal: I think I'd only trust Stim :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Assyrian king c. 2350 BC
    Riddle Sideways: Sargon parted a sea?
    Agatha Macbeth: No
    Agatha Macbeth: In the river I mean
    Eliza Madrigal: so parts of the story are the same
    Agatha Macbeth: Well that bit is certainly
    Zen (Zen Arado): yes it's not so much other people noticing we aren't being mindful just easier to work with these things in the group perhaps because others make us more aware of ourselves
    Agatha Macbeth: He then went on to found the world's first empire, so at that point their hisories diverge ;P
    Zen (Zen Arado): it's like meditating in the group is much easier
    Zen (Zen Arado): we seem to want to fit into the group or something
    Eliza Madrigal: that makes sense
    Storm Nordwind: Yes. Hence my comment on the Insight Timer thread (for another time, not now)
    Agatha Macbeth: I said Assyrian, I meant Akkadian of course       (of course :P)
    Zen (Zen Arado): augurs it that we worry what they think about us?
    Eliza Madrigal: when I do go, sporadically, to yoga class, I notice that I'm so far behind where I think I am before i go
    Zen (Zen Arado): And when you do go?
    Eliza Madrigal: some say going into group practices that you can tell who is doing the work on their own before they get there
    Storm Nordwind: But you keep going, Eliza, because you choose to see it as an encouragement, not an intimidation.
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, I see the potentials and try to enjoy the embarrassment
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Storm Nordwind: hehe
    Zen (Zen Arado): Although people bring the best out of us?
    Eliza Madrigal: <--clown
    Storm Nordwind: haha!
    Agatha Macbeth: Or the worst
    Storm Nordwind: If so, then the most lovable clown I know :))
    Zen (Zen Arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: aw, ty friend :)
    Tempus fugit
    Eliza Madrigal: Other reports? Time is flying today
    Agatha Macbeth: Tempus fugit
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I had a couple of false awakenings
    Eliza Madrigal: oh?
    Eliza Madrigal: similar?
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): both involved my voice recorder
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): here is one of them:
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I'm trying to record a dream on my voice recorder. I'm having trouble. I seem to have put the recorder into a different mode, and then forgotten that I've done that. I press the record button and nothing happens. I press it several times more, which has the effect of erasing all the dreams on the recorder. I feel annoyed and disappointed, because I had recorded several dreams earlier in the night. As I look at the recorder, I wake up and realize that I don't really have the recorder in my hand at all.
    Eliza Madrigal: you've had a few of these now?
    Storm Nordwind: That somehow seems a very familiar scenario to me!
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): yes, I have to learn to ask myself if I am dreaming every time I reach for the recorder
    Eliza Madrigal: I wonder if doing a practice 'with' your recorder would help
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): yes, that is a good idea
    Zen (Zen Arado): It's funny but Morley advises against using sound recorders
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): why is that?
    Zen (Zen Arado): he says that you can fall asleep and just record yourself sleeping
    Eliza Madrigal: huh
    Storm Nordwind: Does he say why, Zen?
    Zen (Zen Arado): but that never happens to me
    Zen (Zen Arado): I usually find it hard to get back to sleep for a little while when I wake up
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): that hasn't happened to me yet, and I would have almost no dream recall if I did not use the recorder
    Zen (Zen Arado): I would find it very difficult to write if I was in bed
    Eliza Madrigal: I use my phone but I feel I lose a lot because of the light
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): my voice recorder is easy to use without even opening my eyes
    Zen (Zen Arado): yes that's the idea Alma
    Eliza Madrigal: not tiny buttons like mine :)
    Storm Nordwind: When I first started recording my dreams in the early 1990s, I found that recall was getting so detailed, it would take me half an hour every morning to record everything by hand. I didn't have a voice recorder in those days.
    Riddle Sideways: but, not easy to use in the dreams
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): haha, yes Riddle, it always misbehaves in the dreams
    Storm Nordwind: Nowadays I write in bed, in the dark, before I go to sleep. Good time for poetry. Although trying to decypher it in the morning is fun! ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: so imagine if you were recording by voice and then writing, Storm
    Agatha Macbeth can imagine
    Eliza Madrigal: poetry on the boundaries
    Zen (Zen Arado): they say if you are being creative you should write as quickly as possible
    Agatha Macbeth: True that
    Eliza Madrigal: bypass the temptation to rearrange?
    Zen (Zen Arado): keep that horrible logical left brain out of the action :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Get it down while you've got it
    Storm Nordwind: Left brain can't see in the dark ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen (Zen Arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: when I write I sometimes am writing in columns or weirdly
    Eliza Madrigal: but it is sort of my own short hand
    Eliza Madrigal: ie "where" "who"
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala) throws a sudoku at her left brain to keep it occupied
    Eliza Madrigal: charts n things
    Storm Nordwind: hehe @Alma
    Eliza Madrigal: !!
    Zen (Zen Arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay, we're officially at the end of session, so glad careworkers didn't come too early Zen
    Zen (Zen Arado): I let mine play Scrabble to keep it contented
    Zen (Zen Arado): it's funny but when they ring and say they will be early they don't  come early
    Agatha Macbeth: Bless them
    Riddle Sideways: ㋡
    Eliza Madrigal: :) maybe it was a dream
    Agatha Macbeth: Probably daydreaming again
    Zen (Zen Arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: *.*
    Storm Nordwind: IS that the French "bless" Agatha? ;)
    Agatha Macbeth: It's something
    Agatha Macbeth: A French bless sounds rude
    Eliza Madrigal: the southern bless means something like "poor thing"
    Storm Nordwind: (The French verb "blesser" means "to wound or hurt" in English.)
    Eliza Madrigal: "bless her heart she doesn't know any better"
    Agatha Macbeth: Poor thang
    Zen (Zen Arado): bless you child
    Eliza Madrigal: Oooh, yikes Storm
    Zen (Zen Arado): blessure
    Storm Nordwind: Yup
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): that puts a whole different spin on the beatitudes
    Zen (Zen Arado): well blessama soul
    Storm Nordwind: Haha Alma!
    Eliza Madrigal: hahhha
    Storm Nordwind: Blessed are the cheesemakers
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): lol
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe nice to finish with the last few sentences Zen shared at the beginning, then I must go (but feel free to stay!) ....
    "The ultimate aim is to allow mindful awareness to gently infuse all stages of our sleep cycle. This leads to a deep deconditioning process that will also permeate our waking state, allowing us to ‘wake up’ to life with more awareness and to live as we dream: lucidly."
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks friends. <3
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): nice goal
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I have to be on my way too
    Zen (Zen Arado): lucid living
    Storm Nordwind: Thank you Eliza for being a great herder of cats!
    Eliza Madrigal: appreciate such lucid presences
    Zen (Zen Arado): thanks everybody
    Agatha Macbeth: That it then
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Riddle Sideways: the cats go freeeeeee
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): thank you Zen and Eliza and all
    Eliza Madrigal laughs
    Eliza Madrigal: bye for now, dream well
    Riddle Sideways: by dreamers
    Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala) waves

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