2019.01.17 13:00 - Harari III - AI

    Table of contents
    1. 1.  


    The Guardians for this meeting were Aph and Bruce. The comments are by Agatha Macbeth.


    Aphrodite Macbain's current display-name is "Aph".
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi All, sorry running late will send notice :)
    Eliza Madrigal: just learned that Mary Oliver passed away :(
    Riddle Sideways: Hey, not late
    Aphrodite Macbain: Who is she?
    Bruce Mowbray's current display-name is "Bruce".
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Heya, everyone.
    Bruce Mowbray: ty for sending out the notice, Eliza.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Eliza
    Bruce Mowbray: ty for sending out the link to Tegmark, Zen and APh.
    Aphrodite Macbain: 6 minutes till 1
    Aphrodite Macbain: Loved listening to Tegmark
    Riddle Sideways: so many great Mary Oliver quotes
    Bruce Mowbray: OH YES!
    Eliza Madrigal: Oliver is the poet who wrote Wild Geese, and other beautiful things
    Bruce Mowbray: He's one of my favorites.
    Bruce Mowbray: Mary Oliver.
    Aphrodite Macbain: American?
    Bruce Mowbray: She is, yes, and he is, too.
    Aphrodite Macbain: He?
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: sorry, two strings
    Bruce Mowbray: np, it happens.
    Eliza Madrigal: had just learned of Oliver's passing as I arrived
    Bruce Mowbray: OH!
    Riddle Sideways: there are 5 people here, need to keep all 7 threads going
    Bruce Mowbray: I'd not heard that.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Riddle
    Bleu Oleander's current display-name is "Bleu".
    Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Bleu!
    Bruce Mowbray: "Wild Geese" is the token poem of my men's group.
    Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Bleu.
    Eliza Madrigal: No chance to see the Tegmark yet though, looking forward
    Aphrodite Macbain: wow
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
    Eliza Madrigal: your men's group? really? that's wonderful
    Bruce Mowbray: Tegmark gives an excellent talk at Google. (that link)
    Agatha Macbeth: Evening all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Evening :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi aggers!
    Agatha Macbeth: Great class yesterday Bleuji
    Bleu Oleander: glad you enjoyed it ... thanks!
    Agatha Macbeth: I did
    Bleu Oleander: :))
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- I was inspired to keep looking
    Agatha Macbeth: Learned stuff too...wow
    Eliza Madrigal: that's convenient for a class :))
    Bleu Oleander: ha!
    Agatha Macbeth: In my case it's amazing
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    Bruce Mowbray: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYmKOgeoOz4&t=23s
    Bleu Oleander: doesn't always happen haha!
    Aphrodite Macbain: The proff of the pudding is in the art work
    Aphrodite Macbain: proof
    Agatha Macbeth: Proff too
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Prof is in the puddling? AGAIN?!
    Aphrodite Macbain: likes to get messy
    Agatha Macbeth: Yeh they ran out sixpences
    Zevastelle Resident's current display-name is "Zevastelle".
    Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol Aggers
    Agatha Macbeth: (Showing me age)
    Aphrodite Macbain: or dimes
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
    Agatha Macbeth: Maybe loonies in Canada
    Aphrodite Macbain: Only at Christmas tho
    Aphrodite Macbain: loonies are too big.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hope our visitor from last week makes it today, was hoping she'd meet more of 'the gang' :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Aphrodite Macbain: You'd wreck your teeth
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh yes
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I hope she can return.
    Aphrodite Macbain: me too
    Riddle Sideways: hello, Zevastelle
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zevastelle, welcome to playasbeing :))
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Zevastelle!
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh wow, just joined SL today?
    Zevastelle Resident: Hi! Thank you :)
    Bleu Oleander: hiya Zevastelle
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh she's not online
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello dear
    Bruce Mowbray: Happy Rez-Day, Zeva!
    Agatha Macbeth: Welcome to the house of fun
    Zevastelle Resident: You seem under assault by many large posters
    Aphrodite Macbain: Join us, please. Just "sit" on a cushion
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh?
    Agatha Macbeth: We think big
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yres- I was wondering about them
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe the labels overhead?
    Zevastelle Resident: Is it just my viewer?
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, I don't see posters
    Aphrodite Macbain: They came from the electric field
    Aphrodite Macbain: stopped now
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh I thought you meant the posters at the entrance...hm
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, please come in an have a seat. We're about to begin our discussion of Artificial Intelligence in Harari's book "21 Lessons for the 21st Century"
    Aphrodite Macbain: Did everyone get a chance to do the reading and/or see the video?
    Bruce Mowbray: I did.
    Riddle Sideways: what chapter was that?
    Riddle Sideways: read chapter 2m but that seems to be next week
    Riddle Sideways: -m
    Bleu Oleander: chapter "work" right?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that's right.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Under the Technological Challenge- Part 1
    Riddle Sideways: ok good, then what is next week?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yep.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Under work
    Eliza Madrigal: I've "read" but on audio, so I'm not sure what point I've read to, but certainly that far
    Bruce Mowbray: (chapter 5 on the audio, Eliza.)
    Eliza Madrigal: great, thanks Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: :) yw.
    Aphrodite Macbain: The subject of AI is dealt with in Chapters 1-4
    Bruce Mowbray: In the book....
    Bruce Mowbray: (not in the audio)
    Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: How do people feel about the growing of AI, info and biotechnology?
    Bruce Mowbray: It's "disruptive."
    Aphrodite Macbain: Does it worry you or excite you?
    Riddle Sideways: it's fun
    Eliza Madrigal: :) slightly freaked out but excited/curious too
    Bleu Oleander: some of it is great, some not so much
    Bruce Mowbray: It excites me.
    Bruce Mowbray: :)))
    Aphrodite Macbain: Me too
    Aphrodite Macbain: I am thankful for so much it has brought
    Eliza Madrigal: I think I worry more about our current context and if we're sort of emotionally ready for anything more :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Harari says  we are lacking even basic societal tools to deal with the advances in technology and the gap is widening.
    Bleu Oleander: what would it mean to know that we are emotionally ready?
    Eliza Madrigal: the scenarios he describes include the "haves" becoming almost different species?
    Bruce Mowbray: Bleu asks a fascinating question....
    Riddle Sideways: also describes the Stress on many that might put them out of the race
    Eliza Madrigal: already our society is so unequal/unfair
    Bruce Mowbray: The AI might be ready before we are - emotionally, I mean.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I like the video Zen sent out.
    Bleu Oleander: no one ever said the universe was equal or fair tho
    Bruce Mowbray: Both Trump and the Brexit referendum result are the results of AI. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: are we ready for that?
    Aphrodite Macbain: He proposes that if the vision and hope of humans and AI are aligned, we will be very successful
    Eliza Madrigal: that's an interesting notion Bruce, that AI might lead emotionally somehow
    Zevastelle Resident: aren't they really the result of human nature?
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, if AI can control Facebook and Twitter - as it did in 2016 - then it's GOT us, huh?
    Bruce Mowbray: or not?
    Aphrodite Macbain: the fear is that AI will learn faster than umans and take over
    Aphrodite Macbain: also humans
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that's one of the fears, for sure.
    Riddle Sideways: what will you do with that Fear?
    Bruce Mowbray: As Harari says, "“We had better understand our minds before the algorithms make our minds up for us.”
    Aphrodite Macbain: So he suggests that when we design our new technology, we need to program in the goal or purpose of it
    Aphrodite Macbain: so that it aligns with humaans'
    Bruce Mowbray: Exactly. Also, make sure we have a remedy....
    Bleu Oleander: if emotions are no more than biochemical algorighms then computers be programmed to have emotions
    Aphrodite Macbain: Not so much a remedy but a joint purpose
    Aphrodite Macbain: worth listening to
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, in the past we have not had "remedies" for our inventions...
    Bruce Mowbray: like a-bombs.
    Bruce Mowbray: so, we need a remedy for rampant AI. . . .
    Bleu Oleander: any invention can be used for good or bad
    Bruce Mowbray: Yep, right you are.
    Eliza Madrigal: According to the notion of FB/Twitter deciding so much, they already are making up minds, even if not one's own, many others in a world one must live in - or maybe not everyone has to live in 'that' world, that's more my concern
    Bruce Mowbray: Mine too, Eliza.
    Aphrodite Macbain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYmKOgeoOz4&t=23s
    Aphrodite Macbain: that's what Zen sent this morning
    Aphrodite Macbain: Really really interesting
    Riddle Sideways: oh, same url
    Riddle Sideways: as before
    Eliza Madrigal: but I love the statistics on potentials of self-driving cars and operative procedures
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: I was quoting it
    Bruce Mowbray: (so was I actually.)
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles at Zevastelle has found the floaties
    Bruce Mowbray: info-tech and bio-tech could restructure our bodies and minds (what Max Tegmark calls “Life 3.0”)
    Eliza Madrigal: *that
    Aphrodite Macbain: First time I heard Tegmark
    Bleu Oleander: really?
    Zevastelle Resident: pardon me for taking the word "play" most literally
    Aphrodite Macbain: He's very wide-thinking
    Bruce Mowbray: But Harari's concern is that The democratic state is not equipped to deal with rapid changes (cites AI in finance: stock market, world economy, crypto-currencies, etc.)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Bleu Oleander: I read his book, Life 3.0 ... I liked it
    Aphrodite Macbain: Play is good- it's more experimental and inventive
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods to Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray nods back.
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: we have to think long-term - like having a common vision or goal
    Zevastelle Resident: hahaha apparently I'm experiencing an alternate world because I still see hoardes of giant posters passing through this area
    Aphrodite Macbain: Odd
    Eliza Madrigal: It is... really don't see that at all
    Zevastelle Resident: they say Cli-cli notre plaque tournamente
    Riddle Sideways: later, y'all might like this TED talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajGgd9Ld-Wc
    Bruce Mowbray: AI with machine learning algorithms can write an algorithm that will start writing encrypted software that is beyond human understanding, which already has been happening - according to Google - where they don’t fully understand how their machine learning does what it’s doing.
    Aphrodite Macbain: What is it Riddle?
    maggieemay Resident's current display-name is "Maggie ".
    Aphrodite Macbain: we are being manipulated by machines!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Maggie
    Bleu Oleander: hi Maggie
    Bruce Mowbray: How AI can save our humanity -- a TED talk
    Riddle Sideways: it is "How AI can save our humanity | Kai-Fu Lee"
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Maggie.
    maggieemay Resident: hi All
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maggie, welcome :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: How can it?
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Maggie
    Bleu Oleander: a good Harari dialogue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szt7f5NmE9E
    maggieemay Resident: hi
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Maggie
    maggieemay Resident: hi
    Aphrodite Macbain: Humanity is still somewhat in control of AI
    Riddle Sideways: Aph, it is 15m that you might watch
    Aphrodite Macbain: about what?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: yw!
    Aphrodite Macbain: I've watched about an hour's worth of videos on my phone already today
    Bruce Mowbray: Heh heh.
    Bruce Mowbray: Does anyone care about privacy issues?
    Aphrodite Macbain: That's a good example of how it informs my life and controls it to a certain etent
    Bruce Mowbray: Already, a machine learning or deep learning algorithms can analyse the biometric data and can determine your personality type, your health issues, your mood, and even your sexual orientation.
    Aphrodite Macbain: But for what purpose?
    Bruce Mowbray ponders facial recognition AI.
    Bleu Oleander: yeah, who would want to know LOL
    Riddle Sideways: know and compose the ideal music for you ㋡
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is it designed to help me or control me?
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, police depts could find criminals through facial recognition... at the cost of everyone else's privacy, of course.
    Aphrodite Macbain: China's doing it right now
    Bruce Mowbray: and employers could use it to learn stuff about you that you'd rather they didn't know.
    Eliza Madrigal: very interesting credit rating system that connects one with everyone they know
    Eliza Madrigal: so encourages social levels
    Bruce Mowbray: Every major city in the world is doing it.
    Aphrodite Macbain: which could be good for the employer and bad for the employee
    Bruce Mowbray: There are THOUSANDS of CCV camera in the UK and in New York, alone.
    Xirana Oximoxi: 's current display-name is "Xirana".
    Riddle Sideways: hi Xir
    Bleu Oleander: hi Xiri :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone! :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: That's why I like the idea of creating new technology that serves a good purpose for the most people
    Bruce Mowbray: sorting through all that data - - is AI's job.
    Bruce Mowbray: Heya XIR!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Xiri!
    Xirana Oximoxi: :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: WONDERFUL art exhibit!
    Bleu Oleander: yes!
    Xirana Oximoxi: I am sorry to be so late... I have French at the same time sadly :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xiri :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Oui!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Nous pouvons parler francais si tu veux
    Bruce Mowbray: Quel fromage!
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: oui...maintenant je dois changer mon chip :))
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: cip en fncais est chip
    Xirana Oximoxi: thanks for visiting the exhibit and your comments :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: grr
    Bruce Mowbray: soooooo.......
    Bruce Mowbray: What happens when computers learn to design AI? Then we will have an exponential increase in the ability of AI, what some pundits refer to as the 'singularity. ' (Ray Kurzweil, “The Singularity is Near”)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Your work is getting better and better. I'd love to see it in RL
    Xirana Oximoxi: thank you Aph :9
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, truly FINE paintings and charcoals, Xir.
    Bruce Mowbray: Beautiful work.
    Aphrodite Macbain: What would happen I wonder
    Bruce Mowbray: much of the perceived AI-threat comes from them replicating quickly and easily (throughout the world) while at the same time being basically immortal.
    Aphrodite Macbain: It makes me nervous if it is possible to really happen
    Bruce Mowbray: Harari asks "Will humans lose control of the infrastructure of society? "
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wont be aliive then but my great nephews and nieces will.
    Xirana Oximoxi: the way Harari explains it..it seems really possible
    Bruce Mowbray: It's happening right now, Aph. . . . (At least I think that Harari thinks is it.)
    Aphrodite Macbain: was it by 2030?
    Aphrodite Macbain: singularity?
    Bruce Mowbray: That's the Singularity.
    Aphrodite Macbain: man becomes more machine than man
    Bruce Mowbray: When computers are "smarter" than humans -- which they already are in many disciplines.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Where is this happening now?
    Bruce Mowbray: Netflix knows what videos you "should" be watching because you would enjoy them -- even though you do not know about them.
    Aphrodite Macbain: that's not the same as singularity though, is it?
    Eliza Madrigal: I still take most of my recs from friends or other reading
    Bruce Mowbray: Most of th stock market is operated by AI programs. . . choosing which sgtocks to buy and sell at lightning speed....
    Bruce Mowbray: No, the signularity happens when AI program become independent.....
    Aphrodite Macbain: Theya are programmed to make the most money but not necessarily to do the most good
    Aphrodite Macbain: for humanity
    Aphrodite Macbain: Machiavellian
    Bruce Mowbray: Yep, THAR's part of the problem: AI's are a-moral.
    Bleu Oleander: Netflix is always wrong for me but then I don't look to Netflix in my research
    Bruce Mowbray: :) -- good point, Bleu.
    Aphrodite Macbain: So that's where I found the video Zen sent very useful
    Eliza Madrigal: exactly, for me too Bleu
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that was an excellent video, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Most of what is on Netflix has no interest for me
    Bruce Mowbray: I hope everyone gets a chance to watch it.
    Bleu Oleander: me either Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- well worth the time
    Bruce Mowbray: WOW! That's a LOT of stuff.
    Xirana Oximoxi: I have not Netflix :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: what is Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: I have Netflix, but I keep forgetting that I do.
    Eliza Madrigal: I watch all kinds of things on all kinds of channels :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Watch ROMA
    Bruce Mowbray: A LOT of MOVIES that you have no interest in.
    Bleu Oleander: I just signed up for a free month trial and just two weeks into it, I seem to have run out of things of interest on Netflix
    Aphrodite Macbain: So they dont manipulate us
    Bruce Mowbray: I will watch R)MA -- it is on my list.
    Bleu Oleander: I loved Roma
    Bruce Mowbray: ROMA
    Aphrodite Macbain: Good
    Bruce Mowbray: Looking forward to it.
    Eliza Madrigal: Although that is what Netflix keeps telling me to watch too :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Tho it's best on the large screen
    Bruce Mowbray: So, where are we with Harai and AI?
    Eliza Madrigal: I like how Harari suggests "bewilderment" as a better stance than discouragement and disillusionment... so being aware and not disengaging out of a feeling of 'the machine' being too far ahead
    Aphrodite Macbain: same as before
    Bruce Mowbray: Harari*
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
    Bleu Oleander: agree Eliza
    Bruce Mowbray ponders bewilderment.
    Xirana Oximoxi: maybe they don't manipulate us completly...I agre...but just refusing some programs is a way to give information to big corporations too
    Aphrodite Macbain: I still think humans are still in control for the most part
    Agatha Macbeth: Hola Xira :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Excellent point, Xir.
    Bleu Oleander: remain curious and don't get too pessimisstic
    Xirana Oximoxi: Hola Agatha guapina :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought that was a beautiful portion of the book so far, because it carries that sense of 'awe' about what is going on, but with health skepticism like Xiri describes
    Eliza Madrigal: healthy*
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Eliza
    Riddle Sideways: well Harari also suggests more teachers and paying them more
    Aphrodite Macbain: awe is always to be desired :)
    Riddle Sideways: because we need education
    Eliza Madrigal: we do
    Bruce Mowbray: I think Hararis point was that the "liberal story" is not equipped to deal with AI - yet.
    Aphrodite Macbain: we also need critical thinking and creative thinking, not just facts
    Bleu Oleander: its not just education ... its education that teaches how to think rationally
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods- see above
    Xirana Oximoxi: I've sent a page of the book to a group of friends with 3 nurses...they have been happy to know that doctors will not be necessary but nurses yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Riddle Sideways: ㋡
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Of course- the true caregivers
    Bruce Mowbray: Doctors can be had via the Web -- Hands-on nurses will always be needed --- until robots can dulpicate nursing skills.
    Aphrodite Macbain: on a day-to-day basis
    Eliza Madrigal: My whole area is turning into medical universities, hospitals, day centers, etc.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting Eliza. Why do you think?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yep, but what if our AI's decide that long-term care for humans is not viable?
    Aphrodite Macbain: We will ignorfe them Bruce :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Large population of folks growing old
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol ignore
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah
    Eliza Madrigal: and wanting to live much nicer later lives now
    Eliza Madrigal: and having the resources to do so
    Aphrodite Macbain: MAybe that will happen in Victoria
    Aphrodite Macbain: (to where I'm moving)
    Bruce Mowbray: A doc at a hospital in Columbus, Ohio killed 27 patients recently. . . . by giving them overdoses of fentanyl. Surely an AI wouold do better.
    Aphrodite Macbain: OMG
    Bruce Mowbray: Yep.
    Aphrodite Macbain: human error is often a killer
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes...same as driving
    Aphrodite Macbain: that's why we need to work WITH AI not instead of
    Eliza Madrigal: I can think of nurses I would have gladly traded out for nice/pleasant AI robots instead :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: It could be collaborative
    Riddle Sideways: need to get those human errors off the highways
    Bruce Mowbray: https://www.10tv.com/article/multipl...l-prescription
    Aphrodite Macbain: I've prefer to have a human nurse when I am in pain
    Eliza Madrigal: Unless the nurse is mean/cold
    Bruce Mowbray: Humans have better bedside manners -- sometimes.
    Bleu Oleander: Harari says no shortage of human stupidity!
    Aphrodite Macbain: visited occasionally by a robot
    Bruce Mowbray: But then, I've never been helped by a robot nurse, so I can't judge.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Nice combo: human warmth and AI smart
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Bruce Mowbray: ahhh! Combo!
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes!
    Eliza Madrigal: AI robot with warm hands to put on one's forehead and say "there there"
    Aphrodite Macbain: each going in the same direction
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: where where?
    Eliza Madrigal: and sing a lullybye... but, AI will probably not sneak bad food
    Bruce Mowbray: How much of how we perceive care-giving is projection....?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Speaking of medicine- I have to go and get my eyes checked.
    Bruce Mowbray: and also, how we perceive robots.
    Bruce Mowbray: Right now, Aph?
    Bleu Oleander: bye Aph take care
    Eliza Madrigal: bye Aph!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Byee - see you all next weekI hope
    Riddle Sideways: by Aph
    Bruce Mowbray: kk, bye for now Aph.
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks!
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye Aph! take care
    Riddle Sideways: forgot to ask if Aph's eye doctor was an AI
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Ha ha.
    Bruce Mowbray: So, with AI, it's all about data.
    Xirana Oximoxi: if it was probably she could have had the 'veredict' sitting at home :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Where does the data come from?
    Bleu Oleander: BIG data
    Eliza Madrigal: the tech is so fascinating... but it will take a long time for offices to really put things in play
    Bruce Mowbray: Is it accurate?
    Bruce Mowbray: Who gets to ask the questions?
    Bruce Mowbray: How do you know that you're dealing with an AI?
    Bruce Mowbray: (People did not know that in 2016 with the US election and Facebook.)
    Riddle Sideways: ah, data comes from you and me. through Facebook, DMV, hospitals
    Bruce Mowbray: How do you prevent that limited access to AI increases inequality, both within nations and between nations?
    Bruce Mowbray: left to market forces alone it’s likely to make the rich richer and leave the poor behind even farther.
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes...that's quite scaring
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    Bruce Mowbray: I'd rather have a benevolent AI controlling greedy and hateful human beings than having greedy, hateful human beings controlling malicious AIs – but we don't have that choice, do we?
    Eliza Madrigal: I listened to a talk yesterday, and the contrast was made of business models - FB selling data/privacy to 'outside/unknown' forces, and Netflix using data to tweak consumer experience
    Riddle Sideways: great point, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Eliza... That was the problem with Cambridge Analytica.
    Bruce Mowbray gives others a chance to speak.
    Eliza Madrigal: the main difference is that FB is 'free', they said, so you get the service in exchange for your data/rights
    Eliza Madrigal: whereas Netflix is a paid service, so they see the future dividing more along these lines
    Bruce Mowbray: Right, you become the product.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Bleu Oleander: well FB is free to the individual, but its all about control and selling
    Bleu Oleander: so not really free
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Bleu Oleander: we need to remember that we're dealing with corporations
    Eliza Madrigal: and many people need it now, to facilitate their incomes/living
    Eliza Madrigal: https://samharris.org/podcasts/146-d...al-capitalism/ (the talk, if interested)
    Xirana Oximoxi: have you talked about universal basic income?
    Bleu Oleander: not yet
    Bruce Mowbray loves how Sam Harris thinks.
    Xirana Oximoxi: ok :)
    Riddle Sideways: was hoping that UB was next
    Bruce Mowbray: Not yet, Xir
    Bleu Oleander: what do you think about that Xiri?
    Eliza Madrigal goes to check schedule
    Bruce Mowbray: I think UBI would be a major challenge.
    Eliza Madrigal: 24 Chapter 2: Work - AI and Creativity 31 Happiness: Reality-Expectations
    Bruce Mowbray: but it might be necessary -- if AI's put too many people out of work.
    Eliza Madrigal: So lots of people out of work, plus self driving cars keeping more people alive...
    Bleu Oleander: Harari points out that we need to define "universal" and "basic"
    Riddle Sideways: Harari covers all the sides of the issues very well
    Xirana Oximoxi: I find it a good idea...but I don't know if it is possible and also if people would be able to find activitites to enjoy having all day free, for exemple....
    Bruce Mowbray: So, "from each according to her abilities to each according to her needs" would no longer work?
    Bleu Oleander: and that now we are thinking UBI nationally ... he has issues with whether or not it would scale up
    Bruce Mowbray: I'd like to raise one more serious question before this session ends.
    Eliza Madrigal: There are versions of it, though, so I think we're at just the beginning of trying ideas/pilot programs
    Bruce Mowbray: Who will be responsible?
    Bruce Mowbray: If a machine was not told to do anything but was simply given a few algorithms and lots of data as a basis, who is responsible if something goes wrong? The data? The algorithm? The ones developing the algorithms? The ones selecting (or not) the data?
    Bruce Mowbray: [just needed to get that in]
    Eliza Madrigal: Ooh, that was an interesting part, too, where he talks about not identifying the cause of discrimination
    Bleu Oleander: need a lot of lawyers to sort that out!!
    Eliza Madrigal: "the algorithm said"
    Xirana Oximoxi: I think it will not be a single machine...but a 0web' of machines with different levels of security
    Bruce Mowbray: It wasn't ME! It was the algorithm!
    Bleu Oleander: algorithms will let dogs off the hook ha ha!
    Bruce Mowbray: e.g., the dog ate my homework.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Bruce Mowbray dies from laughing....
    Agatha Macbeth: Careful Brucie
    Bleu Oleander: on that note ... gotta get back to work
    Bruce Mowbray: oh yes.
    Eliza Madrigal: so for now anyway, each of the machines in the web is identified with different entities, which already removes the responsibility from singular individuals
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Bleu Oleander: seeya soon
    Bruce Mowbray: bye bye Bleu.
    Eliza Madrigal: bye Bleu!
    Agatha Macbeth: TC Bleuji
    Riddle Sideways: by Bleu
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Bleu! :)
    Bleu Oleander: bye :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Riddle, have you said all that you wanted to?
    Riddle Sideways: hmmm, touch question
    Eliza Madrigal looks to Riddle to make us feel more hopeful
    Agatha Macbeth: Riddle me this and riddle me that
    Bruce Mowbray: ... thinking about bots, etc.
    Riddle Sideways: well, y'all did drag the negitives through here
    Agatha Macbeth: There's enough bots in SL
    Bruce Mowbray: (also feeling guilty for hogging the show)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: You hog very well Brucie
    Eliza Madrigal: you are excited and full of questions, Bruce, which is great
    Bruce Mowbray: I squirrel a lot better.
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Riddle.
    Riddle Sideways: the people of the world survived the steam engines,
    Riddle Sideways: bet we'll survive the AIs
    Bruce Mowbray nods.... they did.
    Xirana Oximoxi: I agree Rid :)
    Agatha Macbeth: And we'll always have Neo
    Riddle Sideways: there were nay sayers all along history
    Bruce Mowbray: and so far we've survived the internal combustion engines.
    Bruce Mowbray: and the weaving looms.
    Bruce Mowbray: and the wheels.
    Riddle Sideways: Plus, the education am getting doing these projects
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmmm.
    Bruce Mowbray: Aye!
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe that gives you more of a tangible feeling of hope?
    Agatha Macbeth: Aye aye
    Riddle Sideways: oh Those Automated Looms
    Bruce Mowbray: There's definitely a learning curve with programming.
    Riddle Sideways: there wrecked people's lives
    Bruce Mowbray: This has been interesting, folks.
    Agatha Macbeth: And don't foget the ghost in the machine
    Riddle Sideways: *they
    Riddle Sideways: yes, thanks
    Bruce Mowbray: Does anyone remember next week's assignment?
    Eliza Madrigal: I feel behind on my homework not having listened to the video
    Agatha Macbeth: Not moi
    Bruce Mowbray: Maybe Aph will.
    Bruce Mowbray: I need to go and scrape p supper.
    Agatha Macbeth: Aph definitely will
    Xirana Oximoxi: me either :9 I can check the email...
    Eliza Madrigal: posted it above...
    Bruce Mowbray: THANKS, everyone,
    Agatha Macbeth: Scrape well Brucie
    Riddle Sideways: Eliza pasted it
    Xirana Oximoxi: thanks Bruce and all
    Eliza Madrigal: 24 Chapter 2: Work - AI and Creativity
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, good people.
    Agatha Macbeth needs to scoot also
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, good AI's.
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks Bruce, Aggers, Riddle, Xiri, everyone :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye :)
    Agatha Macbeth: I haz the log
    Riddle Sideways: some of us are listening to you, Eliza
    Agatha Macbeth: Be well peeps
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks, lol... sigh
    Bruce Mowbray: kk, thanks Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal: bye for now
    Riddle Sideways: by and by

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