2019.01.31 13:00 - Harari V - Happiness

    Table of contents
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    The Guardian for this meeting were Aph and Bruce. The comments are by Agatha.


    Aphrodite Macbain's current display-name is "Aph".
    Eliza Madrigal: Aloha, Aph :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Aloha!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Lovely dress!
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you, inspired by the Chrysler building
    Eliza Madrigal: but you look much cozier :)
    Eliza Madrigal: keeping snugly inside, away from freezing weather?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Darn polar vortex
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's just warm and rainy here...
    Eliza Madrigal: Is it?
    Eliza Madrigal: Even here it is rather cool, although dreary too
    Aphrodite Macbain: Typical of west coast weather
    Aphrodite Macbain: I've just come back from my optometrist - Things are improving
    Eliza Madrigal: excellent news
    Aphrodite Macbain: and and I now am in the lineup for a knee replace emnt
    Eliza Madrigal: getting all the bells and whistles :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: 4-5 months!
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- bionic aph!
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Aphrodite Macbain: Soon I'll be able to leap tall buildings at a single bound
    Eliza Madrigal: very useful
    Aphrodite Macbain: or at least walk comfortably...
    Bruce Mowbray's current display-name is "Bruce".
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce!
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi APh! Hi Eliza!
    Bleu Oleander's current display-name is "Bleu".
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu!
    Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hiya Agatha, Bleu :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, aggers!
    Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hey Aggers
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bleu
    Bruce Mowbray: NICE coat, Aph!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks :)
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Did everyone see Tura's comment?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, she can
    Bruce Mowbray: cannot be here today.
    Agatha Macbeth: No
    Eliza Madrigal: Email?
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Aphrodite Macbain: OK Ill post it here
    Aphrodite Macbain: What is happiness? People try to measure it by asking people to rate their present happiness on a scale of 1 to 5, but what does that mean? Is my 5 the same as your 5? Is my 5 today the same as my 5 last year? Maybe people automatically fit the scale to their general experience, and the "hedonic setpoint" (happiness returning to the same level after a change in circumstances for better or worse) is a myth? How "happy" am I right now? I really can't connect with this scale of 1 to 5. I mean, I'm quite well off, I have the leisure to take a trip to Lithuania to go to a concert of music on Armenian folk instruments, and right now I'm sitting on the train to the airport. On the other hand, that means I'll miss today's reading session again. Socrates said that it is better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. I think it's also better to be Socrates dissatisfied than Socrates satisfied. If "happiness" means anything to me, I'd describe it as the ongoing achievement of meaningful goals, like a
    Aphrodite Macbain: mountaineering expedition where every peak climbed reveals new peaks yet to climb, rather than some placid state of contentment. -- Tura
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'd describe it as the ongoing achievement of meaningful goals, like a mountaineering expedition where every peak climbed reveals new peaks yet to climb, rather than some placid state of contentment.

    Bruce Mowbray: Beautiful statement.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes
    Bleu Oleander: hard to disagree with that!
    Eliza Madrigal: Nicely constructed argument (thanks, Tura and safe travels!)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I love this: Socrates said that it is better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. I think it's also better to be Socrates dissatisfied than Socrates satisfied.
    Bruce Mowbray: Sounds to me like Tura feels she is more than a lot of data bits.
    Agatha Macbeth: She probably is
    Aphrodite Macbain: I would imagine she is
    Eliza Madrigal: so Socrates is the measure of his own happiness and he judges it as the right one ;-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think that could be applied to all of us
    Bruce Mowbray: How many chocolate bars can one eat before even chocolate becomes unappealing ?
    Agatha Macbeth: 42
    Bruce Mowbray: Yeppers.
    Bruce Mowbray: That exact number.
    Aphrodite Macbain: But I am aware that once I have acheived a goal or obtained somehting I REALLY needed, I want more
    Aphrodite Macbain: Strivig iss good? Or is sit?
    Bruce Mowbray: but not more chocolate bars. . . . there is a shift in one's "goal" once one becomes saturated.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is it.
    Agatha Macbeth: It iss
    Aphrodite Macbain: right Bruce
    Eliza Madrigal: one could also try lots of different kinds of chocolate bars
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'd settle for contentment over happiness
    Bruce Mowbray ponders diversity in chocolate bars.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Milk, plain, white
    Aphrodite Macbain wonders what it is about chocolate...
    Bleu Oleander: its probably fair to say that we all have a different version of what happiness is
    Bruce Mowbray: I suspect that I am continually requiring all sorts of stimulation -- or maybe it's just difference that I crave....
    Bruce Mowbray: something new.
    Bruce Mowbray: Like, today I played with my microscope.
    Bruce Mowbray: and wanted to increase magnification...
    Bruce Mowbray: or else changing the subject matter.....
    Aphrodite Macbain: I like Harari's suggestion that happiness- long term happiness - relates to our connection with community and with conquering new challenges
    Bruce Mowbray: and this kept me occupied and interested for about six hours...
    Bruce Mowbray: on a very cold day, inside my bedroom.
    Eliza Madrigal: nice, Bruce :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: were you any happier afterwards?
    Bleu Oleander: Harari: happiness depends on our expectations
    Bruce Mowbray: But Harari does not tell us what "community" means...
    Bruce Mowbray: I was happier, yes!
    Eliza Madrigal: feeling of time well spent/enjoyed
    Eliza Madrigal: rising to occasion
    Bruce Mowbray: Bleu is right, but it also depends on our openness to new experiences.
    Aphrodite Macbain: .all those experiences that pressour well-being buttons
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- openness requires a bit of courage
    Aphrodite Macbain: so it's a sort of loop
    Bruce Mowbray: New experiences can be disruptive - as Harari says - but they can also be exhilarating.
    Eliza Madrigal: I think I'm rather easily contented, but I could be a high maintenance who thinks she is low maintenance, as in When Harry Met Sally
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Bruce Mowbray makes note to pirate that movie and watch it.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh wow
    Agatha Macbeth splutters
    Agatha Macbeth: Arr me bucko
    Bruce Mowbray: ARRRRR!
    Aphrodite Macbain: I was most struck by his comment about the correlation of happiness with connection with community. It seems to be one of his key answers to our well-being.
    Eliza Madrigal recommends the Mr. Rogers documentary, to feel wholesome and happy for a while
    Bruce Mowbray: No problem. Leave it in.
    Aphrodite Macbain: FOr long-term happiness
    Bruce Mowbray makes note to find and download Mr. Rogers doc.
    Aphrodite Macbain: What makes you happy?
    Bruce Mowbray: I make me happy.
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Who else could possibly do that -- if I were determined to be unhappy?
    Eliza Madrigal: I think Harari is right, regarding connection... but it also opens a whole nother can of worms
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh?
    Aphrodite Macbain: which can?
    Agatha Macbeth: Worms can
    Aphrodite Macbain: ugh
    Bruce Mowbray: I dropped out of the only RL community I belonged to --- this weekend.
    Eliza Madrigal: connection within the context of meaning
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh Bruce, how hard
    Aphrodite Macbain: say more ELiza?
    Bruce Mowbray: NOOOOO!
    Bruce Mowbray: Easy!
    Aphrodite Macbain: It was too cold to get there, no?
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes
    Bruce Mowbray: That community has changed ---- or else I have changed ---- and that community no longer meets my "happiness" needs.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it was very cold, but no matter.
    Bruce Mowbray: Been part of it since 1993 (my men's group)
    Agatha Macbeth: Happiness is a changeable commodity then
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh yes
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, happiness is both changeable and circular.
    Bruce Mowbray: Remember Donovan?
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
    Bruce Mowbray: "Happiness Moves in a Circular Motion"
    Agatha Macbeth: Hurdy gurdy man
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: just a sec....
    Bruce Mowbray: brb.
    Agatha Macbeth: The squirrels got him
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Druth
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya druth
    Bleu Oleander: hi druth
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth
    Bruce Mowbray: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cGWTAe3M6U
    druth Vlodovic: Hey guys
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, druth!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stevie
    Agatha Macbeth: And hello Steve
    Bleu Oleander: hey steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, steve.
    Agatha Macbeth: A rare visitor
    druth Vlodovic: Hey Stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: saw the topic, seemed appropriate
    Bruce Mowbray: Are you happy, Steve?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Stevenaia - gtsy!
    Aphrodite Macbain: What makes you happy and does it last?
    Bruce Mowbray: "You can have everything if you let yourself be."
    Aphrodite Macbain: Does he say that?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, over and over and over.
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    druth Vlodovic: That would be "contentment"
    Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh! Excellent point, druth!
    stevenaia Michinaga: <=== always happy
    Eliza Madrigal: I think if you can find what you're doing in the context of a larger meaning, whether wonder and awe, or kindness, or benefit to family/world in a practical sense, and keep in touch with that, it makes it possible to ride the inevitable tides
    Bruce Mowbray nods. Tides are inevitabe.
    Eliza Madrigal: but if you lose that connection, it is hard to find trust and stay open
    Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Eliza?
    Bruce Mowbray: inevitable*
    Eliza Madrigal: so feeding things to keep sight of the connection seems important
    Bruce Mowbray: Contentment implies "enough." Whereas, "happiness" might be a constant quest for more.
    Aphrodite Macbain: For me happiness is short, brief; wereas contentment lasts
    Bruce Mowbray: Now, can AI make me happy?
    Eliza Madrigal: one of the things I liked about the Mr. Rogers doc is that his baseline was "you're likeable", "you're enough"
    Eliza Madrigal: that kids needed a strong foundation of acceptance
    Eliza Madrigal: not sure how AI would give that :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that was one of Mr. Rogers' continuing message to children. . . . "Woin't you be my neighbor?"
    stevenaia Michinaga: Happy is acceptance (of yourself and others)
    Aphrodite Macbain: AI is a means to a n infinity of possible ends. Some may make me happy.

    Bruce Mowbray: And Harari says that bio-monitoring, etc., etc., etc., can find what makes us happy. . . and can bring us more of those things. . . and then we'll be happier. I do NOT buy it.
    Aphrodite Macbain: wont you be my neighbour hints at the importance of society and others in one's life. Acceptance from one's community
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it surely does, Aph.
    Eliza Madrigal nods, trust and safety
    Aphrodite Macbain: Why dont you buy it Bruce?
    Agatha Macbeth: Too expensive?
    druth Vlodovic: lol, the last 15 seconds of silence was done to the song "I want to paint it black"
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, it's not a matter of quantities for one thing.
    Eliza Madrigal: lots of things have made life more convenient, but that doesn't necessarily mean more satisfying
    Bruce Mowbray: Ha ha -- (to druth).
    druth Vlodovic: I think it is important to recognize that "happy" is a general term with many sub meanings
    Agatha Macbeth: Hehe (to Bruce)
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: no having lots does not mean having more happiness.
    Bruce Mowbray: Right!
    Agatha Macbeth: It can mean the opposite
    Aphrodite Macbain: But having a sense of accomplishment, or feeling one has value brings contentment
    druth Vlodovic: "If money can't buy you happiness then you don't have enough of it."
    druth Vlodovic: "accomplishment" is briefer but in some ways soaks into one's character more
    Aphrodite Macbain: heh
    Aphrodite Macbain: gimmme gimme gimme
    Bruce Mowbray: Can bio-monitoring actually detect happiness? Or, for that matter, can monitoring of my monetary wealth?
    Aphrodite Macbain: remembers the video "what about me?"
    Aphrodite Macbain: It did for that French monk Bruce
    Agatha Macbeth: St Bernard?
    Bruce Mowbray: Thich Naht Hanh?
    Aphrodite Macbain: We have pleasure centres in our brain that can be observed when they light up in the MRI
    Aphrodite Macbain: No He was French from France- caucasian
    Bruce Mowbray: Please does NOT equal happiness.
    Eliza Madrigal: there is also the stereotype of the sad clown... reread the other day, the Robin Williams quote that often people who seem the happiest, always wearing smiles, are in touch with deep suffering and don't want anyone else to feel that
    Aphrodite Macbain: please?
    Bruce Mowbray: That's the whole chocolate bar thing again.

    maggieemay Resident's current display-name is "Maggie ".
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Maggie.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maggie!
    Agatha Macbeth: G'day Mag
    stevenaia Michinaga: Come site
    stevenaia Michinaga: sit
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Maggie. We're discussing happiness and artificial intelligence.
    Bleu Oleander: hi Maggie
    druth Vlodovic: Hi Maggie
    Bruce Mowbray: Our chat logs are posted online, so let us know if that's OK with you, please.

    Maggie may...or may not

    druth Vlodovic: I think depression and happiness go together like striving and skill
    Bruce Mowbray: Please say more, druth.
    druth Vlodovic: depressives either fail or work hard to overcome, so they become good at the skills of observation and compensation
    Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm.
    Bruce Mowbray: So, like those "tides" Eliza was talking about.....
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: French Buddhist monk - Matthieu Ricard, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthieu_Ricard
    Aphrodite Macbain: He is the person I was talking about
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah
    Aphrodite Macbain: He was able to meditate and become happy
    druth Vlodovic: He has spent a total of 5 years in solitary meditation, largely in a remote mountain hut.[20]
    druth Vlodovic: Lucky bastard
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: and I would be miserable
    Bruce Mowbray ponders being "the happiest person in the world."
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'd be talking to the mountain goats
    Aphrodite Macbain: Baaaaa
    Agatha Macbeth: Didn't any mormons visit him then?
    Eliza Madrigal: many of these monks go away for a time, and find that they no longer need all the things they may have believed they needed, but then they come back :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol probably
    Aphrodite Macbain: They need people
    druth Vlodovic: speaking fluent goat
    Eliza Madrigal: re-entry isn't so easy for some of them, but some retain the memory of joy I think
    Bruce Mowbray hums "I talk to the trees, but they don't listen to me..."
    Bleu Oleander: I don't think spending 5 years in solitary meditation in a remote hut would make me happy ... maybe not matched to my expectations
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Eliza- just having that memory would be valuable
    Eliza Madrigal: it is something I'd do, if life allowed, so far it hasn't :)
    Bruce Mowbray also hums "People who need people are the luckiest people in the world..."
    Aphrodite Macbain: It just goes to show that each of us has their own separate needs
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Bruce Mowbray: I think my typist needs trees and goats more than he needs people.
    Eliza Madrigal: I need people, but I often feel I'm not really connecting
    Agatha Macbeth: And squirrels
    Aphrodite Macbain: Me too Eliza!
    Bruce Mowbray: YES! and squirrels!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Squirrels can help you find your nuts
    Bruce Mowbray: hahahahahahahaha
    Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
    Aphrodite Macbain: :D
    Bruce Mowbray dies from laughing....
    Aphrodite Macbain: smirks
    Agatha Macbeth dies from laughing....
    Eliza Madrigal: so there is a kind of depth of personal openness I think it would be worth going toward/cultivating, which might open those doors with others, deeper listening, etc. It is just a theory though
    Bruce Mowbray: Did you know that the average squirrel can retrieve 70% of the nuts it has hidden?
    Aphrodite Macbain: picks Aggers and Bruce up from the floor
    Agatha Macbeth: Grazie
    Aphrodite Macbain: shakes them
    Aphrodite Macbain: and puts them back on their pillows
    Agatha Macbeth: Zzzz
    Aphrodite Macbain: Deeper listening would do the whole world good
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps happiness has something to do with contrasts -- and relativity. . . .
    Aphrodite Macbain: especially politicians
    Agatha Macbeth: Einstein?
    Aphrodite Macbain: say more Bruce?
    Eliza Madrigal: don't you feel most trusting of others when you are deeply connected with openness in yourself? It is like a confidence
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Bruce Mowbray: I knew men in a state prison doing life sentences.... for whom even mild contrasts could produce happiness.
    Aphrodite Macbain: or when someone "really" hears you
    Aphrodite Macbain: we need deeper connections rather than more of them
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. I would agree with that, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Ricard was meditating on compassion when his brain lit up
    druth Vlodovic: "People today have many more friends, but how many of those could you stay with for a week if you lost your house?"
    Eliza Madrigal: :) but not sure one can will it... can mostly cultivate the capacity in oneself?
    Bruce Mowbray: "Deeper" does not necessarily mean more "intense."
    Aphrodite Macbain: so thinking of others makes you happier? Like Tonglen?
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, thinking of others can take your mind out of the loops of self-worry.
    Eliza Madrigal nods Druth... how many could you even tell
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods- we look outwards, beyond our own needs
    Aphrodite Macbain: I find it's the best way for me to cure depression
    Aphrodite Macbain: getting involved in the world outside myself
    Eliza Madrigal: cosmos cures all
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Or painting
    Aphrodite Macbain: or digging in the garden
    Eliza Madrigal: that's big for me too... getting hands dirty in some way
    Bruce Mowbray: Whatever "needs" you feel that you have, there are thousands of people in the world with those same needs -- and far more than those.... so bringing them to mind with Tong-len will make you less concerned for your own needs.
    Aphrodite Macbain: or going on a protest march?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Bruce
    Aphrodite Macbain: well said
    Bruce Mowbray remembers all of those protest marches in Berkeley in the 1960's.
    Eliza Madrigal: what did you think of the orthodox community he described?
    Aphrodite Macbain: or in MOntreal :)
    Eliza Madrigal: we touched on it last week a little
    druth Vlodovic: to be meaningful
    Bruce Mowbray: Amazing to me that Israel supports them.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes that was interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: it seems their culture respects/ascribes dignity
    Bruce Mowbray: average number of children per Orthodox family is SEVEN!
    Aphrodite Macbain: they worry more about the state of the world that their own worldly possessions
    Aphrodite Macbain: they need litle
    Aphrodite Macbain: also little
    Agatha Macbeth: Probably don't have time
    Aphrodite Macbain: they pray most of the time
    Bruce Mowbray: I feel grateful to monks all over the world who are in regular prayer.
    Bruce Mowbray: I did not realize that until I visited a few monasteries.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I might get bored. A repetitive way of life would kill my energy
    Bruce Mowbray: Right, Aph. I need change.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I dont know how they can do so few things!
    Bleu Oleander: the quest for meaning and community, not so much which community ... just one where you can find meaning ... I think that it was just one example -- Orthodox Jews that he gave
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Bleu
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    Aphrodite Macbain: community keeps popping up all the time.
    Eliza Madrigal: so there are things to see in the example, about valuing more than earning potential
    Aphrodite Macbain: But there are those like Bruce and druth who really value solitude...
    Bleu Oleander: even this community, PaB, provides some meaning to many who participate
    Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I value solitude more than I value community.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: I wonder what we've collectively learned from PaB in terms of community... anything that could benefit the larger world?
    Aphrodite Macbain: But we are all social creatures, so we usually make efforts to occasionally connect with others
    Bruce Mowbray: Likewise, I would give up both power and love to have freedom.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Good question Eliza
    Bruce Mowbray ponders whether learning is a collective phenomenon.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think I have learned that we have more in common than we have differences
    druth Vlodovic: I think people need to individually value life, this will bring the best benefit to the world
    Aphrodite Macbain: Or perhaps we select the communities we want to be part of
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods at druth
    stevenaia Michinaga: or.. communities select us
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, everyone. I need to run off to a meditation session now. Thanks for leading today, Aph.
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
    Eliza Madrigal: worth of living "examined life" perhaps too
    Bleu Oleander: bye Bruce
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks for coming Bruce
    Agatha Macbeth: Happy scrapings Brucie
    Aphrodite Macbain: Take care and happy meditating!
    druth Vlodovic: lol, imaginging him running to a meditation session, welcome to the modern world
    Aphrodite Macbain: heh
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: In SL I think druth
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's easy to run
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Except when laggy
    stevenaia Michinaga: must go, thanks this was a treat,
    Eliza Madrigal: bye for now
    Bleu Oleander: bye steve
    Agatha Macbeth: Byee x
    druth Vlodovic: Bye Steve
    Bleu Oleander: must go too
    druth Vlodovic: etc
    Bleu Oleander: take care all
    Eliza Madrigal: etc. :)
    Eliza Madrigal: bye Bleu, thanks for links yesterday
    Bleu Oleander: til next time
    Eliza Madrigal: haven't had a chance to see them yet though
    Bleu Oleander: yw! Eliza
    Aphrodite Macbain: Next week (Feb 7) we discuss Februaryliberty and truth!!
    Eliza Madrigal: big topic :)
    Eliza Madrigal: another one
    Bleu Oleander: ok!
    Aphrodite Macbain: sort of!
    Agatha Macbeth ponders February liberty
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Bleu Oleander: bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: how about truth?
    druth Vlodovic: you only get the one month, so enjoy it
    Eliza Madrigal: hears School House Rock in her head... lovely lady liberty...
    Agatha Macbeth: How about it
    Eliza Madrigal: :) hah
    Eliza Madrigal: take care guys, bfn
    Eliza Madrigal: THANKS
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Eliza
    druth Vlodovic: cya
    Agatha Macbeth: Au revoir
    Aphrodite Macbain: Ciao bella

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