22-24 - Better Late than Never

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    Days 22-23-24: Fefonz Quan is scribing.

                        

    Many things were going on in only three days in PaB, from guardians contemplating in solitude to multi-participant passionate debates, from philosophical debates to cheerful Mambo dancing. I found that going over all that issues, reading, contenmplating, laughing was both a pleasure and a challenge, how to squeeze all those intruiging happenings into one post. So mainly i have here a brief overview, focused surely on the things that caught my attention the most, with some quotes that are meant to serve as "tastes" of the goods, as invitations for the whole meals if you like.

    The dozen sessions started with Fael swimming at the fountain alone - as inpiring as any other session i would say.
    Then an interesting topic that developed in the next session was about morals, morale and compassion. The origin of morals, but more the relation between moral and compassion was on the air.
    Samuel Okelly: the question i keep returning to is where do morals originate?
    Samuel Okelly: what is it that gives "compassion" its moral value?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Adams Rubble: Why does compassion have to have a moral value?
    Fael Illyar: my answer would be, it doesn't have any. Instead, morals are an attempt to make rules to make people act in a seemingly compassionate way
    Caledonia Heron: compassion is what it is, perhaps the moral is a guidepost to help remind people to honor it
    Adams Rubble: One can't MAKE people act compassionately
    Adams Rubble: it comes from within
    Fael Illyar: yet, it's entirely possible to follow morals and be entirely uncompassionate.
    Adams Rubble: exactly
    Adams Rubble thinks morals are bad for morale
    Caledonia Heron: I was playing with those 2 words too :)
    Morals as a constructed system, vs. compassion which is "just there", more basic in a way:
    Caledonia Heron: morals are a construct, perhaps invoked by religious forces long ago to corral the wayward :)
    Gaya Ethaniel laughs @ wayward
    Caledonia Heron: again, compassion is just there, being compassion .... other stuff is window dressing imo
    sam defines "moral relativism" as opposed to "objective relativism", using slavery as clarifying example
    Samuel Okelly: i remain unconvinced that theres any merit to be found in a morally relativistic approach to ethics
    Fael Illyar: what does it mean to be morally relativistic?
    Samuel Okelly: i am using "moral relavistism" to describe a view that each person makes up there own moral worth
    Caledonia Heron: there are certain truths that are not relative
    Fael Illyar: Samuel, we all do.
    Samuel Okelly: the moral objectivist would argue that slavery was wrong yesterday, is wrong today and will be wrong tommorow
    Fael Illyar: moral relativistic would then argue that it changes?
    Samuel Okelly: whereas the morall relativist is unable to argue that slavery is wrong "for everyone"
    Samuel Okelly: the most the moral relavitist can say is that it is wrong for them
    and more of that is in
    Then the good old quan (i like quans, as you might guess) of the falling tree in turned onto SL objects:
    Solobill Laville: If no avatar is in a sim, does the sim exist??
    Udge Watanabe chuckles
    Storm Nordwind: That depends whether it is falling in virtual gale

                       

    Udge Watanabe: actually that is a very good question, Solo.
    Udge Watanabe: I've often wondered about that, whether my buildings "exist" when there is nobody within visual range of them.
    Udge Watanabe: Does the sim maintain all scripts, all objects, all textures permanently "on"?
    Storm Nordwind: There needs to be continuity of script state
    Udge Watanabe: mhmm
    Solobill Laville: I'd think it would make sense to somehow turn as much "off" as possible
    Storm Nordwind: But you cannot do that for a script.
    Udge Watanabe: yes, so would I. But scripts that continue to run suggest otherwise.
    Udge Watanabe: but they ....
    Udge Watanabe: I was about to say that they aren't physical like a building, but of course they are EXACTLY like a building!
    So if you want to bring that chat into existance - just follow the link:
    Stevenia phrases beautifully one of my favorite definitions  - "home is wherever you are if you accept it".

    Pila Mulligan: home is a very meaningful and far reahcing idea

    Pila Mulligan: yes, i live alone, but I will have room for guests or even tenants

    stevenaia Michinaga: home is simply wherever you are if you accept that

    Pila Mulligan: yes, home is where you are :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: if you choose to have it be so

    stevenaia Michinaga: or accept

    Sylectra Darwin: I think of Dorothy and her ruby slippers, and the power of suggestion to the self.

    Sylectra Darwin: There is no place like home, no place like home, no place like home.

    Sylectra Darwin: Maybe if we say it enough we will feel like we are home.

    And another great definition - "perfectly imperfect" - follows:

    Sylectra Darwin: My friend Valerie says she is perfectly imperfect, and I think that is wonderful.

    Sylectra Darwin: That is what it means to be human.

    Sylectra Darwin: This week I love the imperfections that I am made up of.

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Nostrum Forder: I hate your imperfections. They remind me of mine.

    Pila Mulligan: However, Confucius had a disciple named Yen Hui, and Confucius said, "Yen Hui is surely one who will find success, for having made a mistake he never fails to recognize it, and having recognized it he never makes the same mistake again."

    The new feature of the fountain recording and it's usage escorted those days in several occasions, one of them with Fefonz, as he learns to use the recording, and revealed as a non-pc person... while Fael is the genious pc-person.
    It seemed like the recorder prevented us from dancing around, which bring to mind what prevents us in RL from doing things ... is it external limitations, or maybe internal, where we believe there are external limitation whereus if we only let go of them, pooffff, they are gone externaly and internaly, leaving us free.
    And talking about our views, multiple Point of Views are brought to the room when  
    Solo watches Kurasawa's films
    Solobill Laville: hehe, they are all good, I watched Ran, Rashoman, and Dreams
    Solobill Laville: Very beautiful Stylistically
    Fefonz Quan: Well, i tought rashumon itself is 3 movies

               

    Fefonz Quan: (i meant the various points of view, ...)
    Solobill Laville: Ah! Yes! Then actually four POVs...
    Fefonz Quan: but the many POV subject can be a lead here
    Solobill Laville: yes, the point of the movie was that "truth" is quite subjective, in a relative-world sense
    Solobill Laville: Also, I think, that we don't really know our deepest
    Solobill Laville: intentions without truly exploring them
    Fefonz Quan: so when we come to explore reality, like we do here, comparing these POV's can be very interesting
    Fefonz Quan: if we see things differently - what is "real"
    Solobill Laville: Oh, yes, especially with those whose are quite different from our own
    Fefonz Quan: and moreover - when there are things we can agree upon happened are they more real?
    Solobill Laville: Good question
    "Natural phenomena" vs. "real phenomena"
    Solobill Laville: they are actually just "multi-subjective" realities, in other words
    Solobill Laville: all of our own ideas, separately thrown together,
    Solobill Laville: but still each ours
    Solobill Laville: Sliding scale though...on some things don't we get more "objectively" agreed upon?
    Fefonz Quan: i think we do. natural science surely will agree that there is an objective reality
    Fefonz Quan: that we should all agree upon      

    Solo elaborates about the realms of "real phenomena" and "contemplative phenomena"

    Solobill Laville: Yes, agreed, within that realm of "natural phenonoma"

    Fefonz Quan: so what realm is left for our conciousness
    Solobill Laville: But what of 'contemplative phenomena"?
    Fael Illyar: those are rather difficult to show to someone else :)
    Fefonz Quan: and are those realms orthogonal? what'natural phenomena (NP)' can't be CP?
    Fefonz Quan: and how does CP, influence NP?
    Solobill Laville: Maybe they are...but point is they are not exclusive of each other, imho
    Solobill Laville: All part of the "complete universe"       

    Then rocks start to fall. Objectivity, physical rules and falling rocks are mixed together here. Even some strings are getting involved.

    Fefonz Quan: well, i was counting on "things that we all agree of"
    Solobill Laville: Maybe the point is that physical laws that Fef is referring to act as "objective" reality in the NP realm

    Fefonz Quan: so we all will agree that a rock falls

    Fael Illyar: physical laws are an attempt at modeling what happens in nature.

                      

    Fefonz Quan: the conflict between an "objective" world, that follows some rules and can be agreed upon many observers, to the subjective experience that is very hardly agreed upon, if possible, is the question to my opinion
    Fefonz Quan: without taking any of the worlds as primary, starting with each of them results in interupting (up to destroying) the other
    Here you can find some more points of view of those topics:
    Music, hot coffee and a good chat - can you beat that?
    Solobill Laville: Did anyone enjoy their coffee or tea today?
    Wol Euler grins.
    Wol Euler: actually, yes, my second cup (around 11:45) was quite delightful
    Fefonz Quan: yes, nice chai now :)
    Tarmel Udimo: I am about to dash off and make some coffee, already had hot lemon and honey another morning favourite
    Wol Euler is having her evening tea.
    Solobill Laville smiles
    Wol Euler: how were your caffeinated beverages today, Solo?
    Solobill Laville: Delightful, and I listened to The White Album disk 1 as I had my first cup o' java
    Wol Euler: ah!
    Wol Euler: what a combined treat.
    Solobill Laville: Happiness is a warm cup ;)
    Fefonz Quan: ah, one of the good ones :)
    And after discussing the Freeze option, the opposite occurs - Wol supply all the forum with " Maracas (party in your pants!) " and - the wild dance party begins!
    I tell you, that was so hilarious and refreshing, with the cheerful music palying and the cheery group dancing, among the most fun moment i had in SL! but why talking - when images can do it for me:
    1_23_09_1300_001_004.jpg
    And the evidence i was there :-)

    1_23_09_1300_001_005.jpg

    A small group was discussing the dis/advantages of small groups
    doug Sosa: we are working smaller than i am used to, ten or less, real intimacy, salon type.
    Threedee Shepherd: Ah, that's good. The old magic number of 7 plus or minus two, applies to the largest size of a group that is still small.
     doug Sosa: i did one last week with twenty and it was good. sundued lighting helps.
    doug Sosa: we try a rule. pause after each speaker, feel what the group needs before speaking.
    Threedee Shepherd: Twenty is a *different* kind of meeting/gathering than seven.
    Wol and Scathach are discussing the Pheno exploration, and the buddhist-database duality 
    Scathach Rhiadra: so, are you going to do the explorations?
    Wol Euler: so I have a lot of catching up to do.
    Wol Euler: but it does sound very interesting, and I will start.
    Scathach Rhiadra: I am glad we have moved on to a different exploration this week
    Wol Euler: you were getting tired of the stick?
    Scathach Rhiadra: no, I think it is still finding our stick...
    Scathach Rhiadra: but the 3 experiments about being seen, I seem to have gotten stuck in a rut, so to speak
    Scathach Rhiadra: maybe a slightly different focus would be good
    Wol Euler nods
    Scathach Rhiadra: for me at least:)
     And going back to the emptiness of sims:
    Wol Euler: there's an intersting log coming up btw, from thursday 1pm, we talked about the emptiness of sims and what is "there" when there's no av nearby to see it
    Scathach Rhiadra: ha, sounds very Buddhist:)
    Wol Euler: indeed, a strange hybrid cross between Buddhism and database optimization.
    Wol Euler: "we are all just records in Being's database"
    Scathach Rhiadra: I look forward to reading it:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: hmm, that sounds nice, 'records in Being's database'
    Wol Euler: it puts our selfimportance into a different perspective ...
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Wol Euler: every philosophical age has had its model of the universe: a potter's wheel, a clock; why not a database?
    Wol Euler: a non-physical model though, seeing us as "content" and "meaning" rather than objects
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I like that analogy
    Pema, Scathach and Geo go back to discuss one of our (or mine) favorite topics:
    PaB vs. Phenomenology as approaches to reality.
    The discussion is very intruiging for me, since i myself wonder about it, finding them many times very similar. more over, when i think of the differences, and then read Pema's desription
    Pema Pera: It is related with this idea of starting at the end, or really being at the end, which I have mentioned before, for PaB
    Pema Pera: whereas a phenomenological investigation starts at the very beginning, right here in daily life, just looking around us at what presents itself
    Pema Pera: so in that sense the two approaches couldn't be more different :-)
    i feel that it's the total opposite to my grasping of those attitudes. For me, PaB is more "pure", in the sense that i don't have to assume or imagine any a-priori concepts, just looking at reality as it is, or as it is percieved directly. The only "forced" factor, in a way, is the "appereciation" of appearances that sound a little artificial to be (although this tendency tends to rise naturally from my experience). On the other hand, many exercises demand some approach or imagination forced into the exercise, like "who's looking at who" and "shifting the point of view". SO, i am a little confused, which encourages me to contemplate some more about it, so it is a good thing, and i put here a taste of the dialogue: 

    Scathach Rhiadra: I think Pema said something about pheno

    experiments starting at the other end, looking at phenomema,
    while PaB starts with Being
    Pema Pera: and Gen wrote that both you and she were wondering what that meant
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Pema Pera: It is related with this idea of starting at the end, or really being at the end, which I have mentioned before, for PaB
    Pema Pera: whereas a phenomenological investigation starts at the very beginning, right here in daily life, just looking around us at what presents itself
    Pema Pera: so in that sense the two approaches couldn't be more different :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Pema Pera: YET at the same time, the best way to become friends with Being is by appreciating the presence of appearance
    Pema Pera: of all appearances
    Pema Pera: of all phenomena
    Pema Pera: so the two approaches couldn't be more similar . . . .
    Geo Netizen: at once most different and most similar
    My readers are encouraged to read the chatlog itself in order to sort things out, and also enjoy other topics like discussing Samuel's contributions to the group and Wol playing as being the Joker for us :) - all that and more in: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/01/2009.01.24_07%3a00_-_The_Joker_in_the_Pack
    French language controls the next session due to en nouvea-bie, and the sessions goes on discussing different languages, jokes, girlfriends and language-learning-enhancements drugs.  

    Bushism and Buddhism are of concern
    Starting from a talk of buddhism, a newbie , calista invoke questions about the contrast between the society beliefs that surrond us and the things we encounter when we practice. The multilogue swirels around buddhism, PaB, no-ism, 9sec and other favorite topics in a fluent and enjoyable way. A recommendation for beginner's and beginner's minds alike :)  


      

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