28-31 - Ones and Twos and Lions and Dreams, oh my

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    The end of March was given a special flavour by the run-up to the first birthday of Play as Being on April 1st.


    PaB Marathon, 90 Seconds & Sleeping Tigers 

    Pema Pera: during the first half year of PaB, I read all the logs, also for sessions were I was not present myself

    Pema Pera: which was really interesting, to follow the flow of events and conversations that way

    Pema Pera: but then at some point in the middle of the fall I just got too busy to do so systematically

    Pema Pera: and now I read them whenever I can, and skip doing so when I don't have time

    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, there are so many!

    Pema Pera: I look forward to see my life settling a bit more, so that I can once again read all of the logs . . . .

    Scathach Rhiadra: and you are doing your PaB marathon now?

    Pema Pera: yes, this is session number nine for me :-)

    Pema Pera: hereafter nineteen more to go

    Scathach Rhiadra: is it settling into a routine?

    Pema Pera: more or less, yes, it is a bit like driving across the U.S. . . . .

    Pema Pera: . . . you know it is a big country, but when you drive across it, you really see and feel its vastness

    Pema Pera: that is spatially

    Pema Pera: here it is temporal

    Pema Pera: I know there are really many PaB sessions each week

    Pema Pera: but knowing and actually seeing/feeling/experiencing is something quite different

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Pema Pera: I now get a real gut feeling for how very many sessions we have in PaB each week :-)

    Lots of Tiny Silvery Fish 

    arabella Ella: this morning i went to the sea to reflect and meditate for a short while

    arabella Ella: and i noticed this old wall

    arabella Ella: big blocks and thick in how it is built

    arabella Ella: and it is amazing how even something ... material ... makes an effort to survive the elements

    arabella Ella: as the bottom bit is all gone

    arabella Ella: so there is a gap between wall and sea level

    arabella Ella: yet there it stands majestically

    arabella Ella: resisting any forces that may make it collapse

    arabella Ella: yet not having any solid foundations to rest upon

    arabella Ella: a bit like us humans i reflected

    Agreements in our Disagreements 

    Pema Pera: when we feel/sense moments of timelessness, we have a choice of interpretation -- even if there is no "belief" involved

    Pema Pera: let us say we have a choice of two hypotheses to follow

    Threedee Shepherd: ok

    Pema Pera: 1) we exist in the world, and for whatever physiological/psychological reasons, we have that kind of wonderful sensation

    Pema Pera: 2) those are moments that show cracks in the too limited belief in a world that exists in space and time, and something wider shines through "out of Plato's cave" so to speak, totally different

    Pema Pera: so hypothesis 2) implies that 1) is only provisional, an in fact an illusion, which may be pragmatically helpful to some extent

    Pema Pera: whereas hypothesis 1) implies that 2) is an illusion, and not true in any sense

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no..it doesn't.

    Threedee Shepherd: what if I say I behave according to (1) AN also am open to the idea that "anything" is possible.?

    Pema Pera: I think they are quite distinct. and it seems that Threedee follow hypothesis 1) and I follow hypothesis 2), but it would be interesting if I were wrong

    Threedee Shepherd: OK, let me be blunt for sake of argument. If (1) is true and is all there is, the (2) is a fool's errand.

    Pema Pera: yes, absolutely!

    Pema Pera: and if 2) is true that 1) is a foolish way to shackle yourself into an imagined world of suffering

    Threedee Shepherd: agreed

    Pema Pera: agreed

    Threedee Shepherd: When I try to consider (1) and (2) from the *standpoint* of (1) [which is still where I stand], I am hampered in giving (2) a fai explorations, for many of the reasons stated earlier by you.

    Pema Pera: yes, that is a very important conclusion, and totally right, I think.

    Pema Pera: In fact, that is what religious practitioners see in full force, after years of meditation trying to "get" enlightened, with the best of intentions

    Pema Pera: and when they really really see that, something can be so totally dropped that 2) opens

    Pema Pera: it is fascinating to read the account of "waking up" written by the great practitioners of whatever tradition

    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm

    Pema Pera: their first statement is pretty much what you just wrote

    Threedee Shepherd: You can lead a (1) towards (2), but you can't make him increment ^.^


    Wol Euler: I wonder how much farther we might have got with Samuel, had we held these silences then?

    Pema Pera: very interesting question, Wol

    Wol Euler: might it have defused some of the aggression and tension?

    Pema Pera: could well be

    Pema Pera: with the diffuse mist of the fountain :)

    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs

    Wol Euler: (I still think that was a missed opportunity on both sides. Neither got what might have been had from it)

    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods

    Pema Pera: (Rev, Samuel was someone with rather strongly held views, and not very subtle in holding them up in your face so to speak)

    Wol Euler: I hope we moved him along the path a little ways

    Pema Pera: I think he also moved us along the path a little ways

    Pema Pera: mutually

    Pema Pera: we learned a lot

    Wol Euler nods

    Reverielarke Wirtanen: hmm- I see

    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods

    Eliza Madrigal: In what way? (I met him only once I think)

    Pema Pera: Wol? You met him more often than I

    Wol Euler laughs.

    Wol Euler: well, where to start? We talked a lot about him behind his back, in e-mail, discussing how to deal with his manner and his issues

    Wol Euler: and whether it was right to "deal with" him

    Wol Euler: that solidified teh group, in a way, gave us a bit more "us-ness"

    Reverielarke Wirtanen: interesting

    Wol Euler: but many of the arguments were also very invigorating and thought-provoking. He was quite doctrinaire and dogmatic, but not an idiot.

    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, so he gave an opportunity because you all made it into that

    Pema Pera: on the contrary

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no..really smart.

    Pema Pera: in his own way he really took a large effort to try to communicate with us

    Wol Euler: I had the sense that he was struggling with the same issues he let out here, that it was his unease with Christianity and its doctrines taht he wanted to discuss, but he projected the anger and uncertainty onto us.

    Wol Euler: so we went around in circles much of the time

    Pema Pera: and we were not skillful enough to look beneath more closely, perhaps

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Pema Pera: though we got better at it, I think

    Pema Pera: over time

    Wol Euler: well, he didn't let us!

    Pema Pera: it's always mutual . . . .

    Pema Pera: perhaps he was better at defending than we were at opening up :-)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Wol Euler: oh very defensive, yes.

    Eliza Madrigal: Ah. It can be difficult to see out of a very "dfinite" mindset

    Eliza Madrigal: (and in some circles you are taught *not* to question...to shut it down)

    Pema Pera: exactly, yes

    Eliza Madrigal: So the intellect and the heart can be set up for a kind of war

    Reverielarke Wirtanen: that can present some unique growth opportunities, but it can be frustrating too.

    Pema Pera: yes, both

    Pema Pera: but I can sort-of see his point of view

    Pema Pera: in the sense that he was probably not aware of his (for us) aggressively defensive stand, so he perceived a kind of (counter-)aggression

    Pema Pera: which he then attacked in turn and felt offended by

    Poems, stories and songs 

    Pema Pera: Here is a very short poem by Tagore, about time: 

    "The learned say that your lights will one day be no more." said the firefly to the stars.
    The stars made no answer.

    "You'll be absolutely free, only if you want to be", Frank Zappa 

    (Being a continuation of the "Agreements in our Disagreements" discussion.)

    Threedee Shepherd: From (2) no statement but (2) can be true. thus tautology, it seems

    Pema Pera: in 2) the role of statements is different than it is in 1)

    Pema Pera: so if you apply the 1) logic to 2), you won't get anywhere

    Threedee Shepherd: OK, in (2) is there ANY meaning to the common word, REALITY

    Pema Pera: I'm not trying to be difficult, that is just the nature of 2)

    Threedee Shepherd: I know you are not trying to be difficult

    Pema Pera: the problem is, once we both have glimpses of 2), we can compare the glimpses and from there on we can try to grope for words

    Pema Pera: and luck will help to get glimpses :-)

    Threedee Shepherd: hehe

    Pema Pera: but we need to start from the experiments to then try to describe whatever theory we would like to argue with

    Pema Pera: we can't produce reality by constructing a clever logical argument

    Pema Pera: in 1) the experience is everyday experience

    Pema Pera: in 2) it is something different

    Pema Pera: and believe me, I know how frustrating it is

    Threedee Shepherd: I would say, every time I think I have had a glimpse that might be of (2) the words I grope for always bring me back to it being just another case of (1)

    Pema Pera: I found it frustrating too, and I used to argue just like you are doing now, I know where you are coming from

    Pema Pera: yes, words project it down into the shadows . . .

    Pema Pera: it's delicate

    Pema Pera: at first at least

    Threedee Shepherd: OK, in a sense one cannot get from (1) to (2) because they are orthoganol constructions

    Pema's "Weave of the Tapestry of Light" 

    Pema Pera: hehe, yeah, our typists sometimes are distracted by RL

    Adams Dubrovna: hehe

    Pema Pera: continues to be a major problem for us

    Adams Dubrovna: yes :)

    Pema Pera: one day there may be a revolt

    Adams Dubrovna giggles

    Pema Pera: but we should go into IM to discuss the details

    Pema Pera: remember typists all over are reading these logs . . . .

    Adams Dubrovna: hehe

    Adams Dubrovna: we can learn sign language

    Pema Pera: or exchange note cards :-)

    What is existence? 

    Pema Pera: When we see a cloud, or a bird, and appreciate it, there are at least three aspects:

    Pema Pera: we see a bird, we take it to really exist there in front of us, in the world, in space and time, and we feel deep appreciation.

    Pema Pera: now of those three things: perceiving, infering existence, appreciation

    Pema Pera: we can question the value and importance of each of the three

    Pema Pera: without perceiving it would be hard to appreciate

    Pema Pera: but how important is the belief in "existence" of the material substrate and by extension of the "existence" of a whole world in space and time? 

    Newcomers and oldtimers - or remembering Pema's hair 

    Pema Pera: You had just entered SL around that time, hadn't you, Trevor?

    Trevor Berensohn: Oh yes just a few weeks I think

    Pema Pera: Ah yes, born April 18, 2008, indeed!

    Pema Pera: two and a half weeks after we got started

    Trevor Berensohn: Bumped into things all the time then heh

    Pema Pera: and your visit to the tea house was one of the first things you did, I believe

    Trevor Berensohn: Still do, really

    Pema Pera: yeah, well, that's how we learn!

    Trevor Berensohn: Oh yes I was surprised at how embarrassed I was

    Pema Pera: :)

    Trevor Berensohn: Didn't know SL could be so "real"

    Pema Pera has similar memories of his first group's meeting

    Trevor Berensohn: ahem

    Pema Pera: yes

    Pema Pera: I went to a meeting at SciLands

    Pema Pera: a group of science oriented sims

    Trevor Berensohn: Ah

    Pema Pera: for my first group meeting

    Pema Pera: and it had just become dark

    Pema Pera: I did not know anybody

    Pema Pera: and I did not know how to turn on daylight for myself

    Pema Pera: and I was terrified notknowing which chair to sit on

    Pema Pera: afraid I would sit on top of someone else in the darkness

    Trevor Berensohn: lol I think I wore a box my first week

    Wester Kiranov: I had a similar "dark" experience the first times in kira cafe

    Trevor Berensohn: didn't know how to take it off

    Pema Pera: yes, pretty terrifying :-)

    Pema Pera: hehe, not yet "out of the box" yourself!

    Trevor Berensohn: Yes it's amazing the adrenaline of those firsts here

    Wester Kiranov: just didn't know how to turn the light on

    Trevor Berensohn: Ha indeed

    Pema Pera: yes, testifying indeed to the reality of virtuality

    Trevor Berensohn: seemingly so..

    Pema Pera: like immigrating into a new country

    Pema Pera: and not yet having figured out the new etiquette and manners

    Trevor Berensohn: Haha but sure to put your foot in it

    Trevor Berensohn: so to speak

    Pema Pera: :-)

    Wester Kiranov: yes, new etiquette and manners - difficult

    Trevor Berensohn: Just another formality of the silliness of it all

    Wester Kiranov: I have only just learned that weird things can happen if you click on someone elses furniture

    Trevor Berensohn: Your conversation with the lion was interesting, Pema

    Trevor Berensohn: Haha did you get "animated"?

    Pema Pera: hehe, I often do, Trev!

    Trevor Berensohn: Ahhh

    Pema Pera: like what, Trevor (weird things can happen if you click on someone elses furniture) ?

    Trevor Berensohn: I think I lost my SL virginity that way

    Wester Kiranov: well, someone had a different idea of what it means to "play piano"

    Remember last year? 

    Pema Pera: Okay, here are the first sentences on April 1, 2008:

    Pema Pera: 

    [2008/04/01 6:57] You: Hi Caledonia! 

    [2008/04/01 6:57] Caledonia Heron: gut morgen :) 

    [2008/04/01 6:58] You: goede morgen in my language ;>) 

    [2008/04/01 6:58] Caledonia Heron: is your last name not a greeting also? hut hut! 

    [2008/04/01 6:58] Caledonia Heron: oh no, hej hej, that's it right? 

    [2008/04/01 6:58] You: what a hoot! 

    [2008/04/01 6:58] Caledonia Heron: hoot hoot 

    [2008/04/01 6:59] Caledonia Heron: it is just we two then? 

    [2008/04/01 6:59] You: we'll see 

    [2008/04/01 6:59] Caledonia Heron: k 

    [2008/04/01 6:59] You: it's not quite the whole hour yet 

    [2008/04/01 6:59] Caledonia Heron: ah, my computer is fast then

    Dreams, Worms, Contact & High Tech 

    Pila Mulligan: there was some talk in Maxine's workshop today about SL-related dreams

    Pila Mulligan: have you found SL dreams appearing more in the marahton week, Pema?

    Eliza Madrigal: I wonder that too

    Pema Pera: I don't think I have remembered that many dreams

    Pema Pera: when you sleep in short spurts you tend to just conk out

    Pema Pera: it is mostly at the end of a well rested night that the most interesting dreams appear

    Pila Mulligan: I've never had any dreams of bing in the SL environment, although I have dreamed of people form SL

    Pila Mulligan: but not in their avi form

    Pema Pera: oh, I had clear dreams of moving around in SL

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Pila, you mean people' you've met in RL...or you took them out of SL in the dream?

    Pema Pera: but yes, sometimes it was mixed with RL elements too

    Pila Mulligan: peole only form SL Eliza

    Pila Mulligan: not form RL

    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, people from SL, but in RL form in the dream..or how you thought they'd be?

    Pila Mulligan: well, it is funny

    Pila Mulligan: people from SL, not RL in terms of having met them

    Pila Mulligan: but then in dreams they had their RL persona

    Pila Mulligan: and image

    Eliza Madrigal: I dreamed SL most of the week last week...one in which we were in Maxine's workshop (Pila, Max, Fef, and I) switching around skins and clothes...identities.

    Pila Mulligan: precisely :)

    Pema Pera: how nice, Eliza!

    Pila Mulligan: here, borrow my face :)

    Eliza Madrigal: hehehehe

    Pema Pera: haha

    Eliza Madrigal: yes...just like that


    Pila Mulligan: there is this very powerful poilitican on Maui

    Pila Mulligan: who is totally gay

    Pila Mulligan: and there is a lawyer I knew there who is single and aggressively , what shall we say, romantic

    Pila Mulligan: straight

    Pila Mulligan: well, in this one dream, the gay polictican had taken on a new face so to speak

    Pila Mulligan: your comments earlier reminded me of this dream ELiza

    Pila Mulligan: he had beceom a visually stunnning woman, and it had been a transformation I witnessed in one phase of the dream

    Pila Mulligan: well, as oyu may have guessed, in a later pahse of the dream whom should he encounter but the lawyer

    Pila Mulligan: ... :)

    Pila Mulligan: if the lawyer had only known with whom he romanticized that evening

    Eliza Madrigal: Okay...reading this over ... Do you mean underlying impulses? heh

    Pila Mulligan: well, actually the thought related to your discussion of trading SL indentities

    Pila Mulligan: people in dreams can really be whatever they want

    Pila Mulligan: in appearnacre

    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, absolutely.

    Pila Mulligan: just like chanigng avis in SL

    Eliza Madrigal: yes! And maybe under the surface...all the same playing with outer effects:)

    Pila Mulligan: this peculiar dream was an illustration of haw it happened

    Pila Mulligan: and the (to me) humorus results

    Pila Mulligan: I tihnk so, Eliza

    Eliza Madrigal: Hmm. :)

    Pila Mulligan: people creat a lot by extension of thier energy -- what used to be called anima projection

    Eliza Madrigal: You mentioned "energy injuries" the other day, and I thought about how when I have certain visitors, once they leave I have to sleep for much longer stretches...feel completely drained.

    Eliza Madrigal: And it isn't that they've done anything...just their company. Odd

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