10-12 Now "here" this

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    2010.02.10 01:00 - 'What are we trying to do again?'

    The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.
    Our new visitor Lawrence and me talking about some basic aspects of PaB-practice, time and awareness

       Bolonath Crystal: hi lawrence
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi, Bolonath.
        Bolonath Crystal: lawrence, did we meet before? is this your first time here?
        Lawrence Vyceratops: This is my first time here.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: We have not met.
        Bolonath Crystal: welcome :)
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Thank you :)
        Bolonath Crystal: i have to inform you, that our talks are recorded and published. is this ok with you?
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, that's fine.
        Bolonath Crystal: great
       Bolonath Crystal: how did you find us, if i may ask?
        Lawrence Vyceratops: I was searching for things to do in Second Life.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: This sounded interesting. I think I came across a webpage.
        Bolonath Crystal: ah, i c
        Bolonath Crystal: the sessions at this time are rather quiet usually. nice to see you here :)
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Nice to be here. Thanks :)
        Bolonath Crystal: are you interested in spirituality? what caught your attention?
        Lawrence Vyceratops: I don't remember exactly. I still haven't gotten the gist of this meeting.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm not sure what you mean by spirituality.
        Bolonath Crystal: we explore the nature of being
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Obviously, time has something to do with it. ;)
        Bolonath Crystal: every 15 minutes you will hear a gong. then we stop in whatever we do and try to concentrate on our awareness for 90 seconds, before we continue
        Bolonath Crystal: this is a very special method of "play as being"
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Shall we explore awareness for a moment?
        Bolonath Crystal: in real life these breaks last 9 seconds only
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok.
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, we can explore that any time :)
        Lawrence Vyceratops: That way, I can figure out what exactly we are supposed to do for 9 seconds.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: So, what do we mean by awareness?
        Bolonath Crystal: well, often we are caught in our thinking and feeling. while we stop, we try to stop this entanglement and look at life and the world without attachment
        Bolonath Crystal: like a micro-meditation :)
        Bolonath Crystal: the idea is, that a greater number of short practice might be more effective than a long meditation once a day
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Effective for what?
        Bolonath Crystal: to find out, what 'really' happens and what is just mind-borne
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Oh, I see.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: You mean, human mind-borne?
        Bolonath Crystal: the longer i practice, the more i am convinced, that everything happens in our mind only. but the experiences of our members are quite different
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Or all mind-borne?
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, well, a human mind is all i got at the moment
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Oh, I see what you mean... I think.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Let me think...
        Lawrence Vyceratops: I think my understanding depends on what we mean by mind...
        Bolonath Crystal: sure. nice thing to play with ;)
        Lawrence Vyceratops: So, is our mind supposed to try and find out what happens or what is mind-borne?
        Bolonath Crystal: a good question. is our mind supposed to do anything at all? or is this also simply a mind-borne thing?
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, if we mean that us, this mind-body-thing... if we mean THAT mind, then everything is mind-borne, because this mind-body-thing is the experience.
        Bolonath Crystal: if mind is part of the experience, who then has the experience?
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I didn't say it was part... I'm saying that, perhaps, this mind-body-thing is the experience, as well what is being experienced.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: ...by the mind-body-thingy...
        Lawrence Vyceratops: We can't be a tree, but we can see it.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: That is in our mind.
        Bolonath Crystal: in buddhism there is a competition between two philosophies. one says "all is mind". the other one says "all is emptyness". we weren't able to solve this question so far
        Lawrence Vyceratops: no one said mind is emptiness??
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Haha that's kinda funny...
        Bolonath Crystal: if everything is emptyness, then also mind is emptyness
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Obviously.
        Bolonath Crystal: personally, as an advaita vedantin, i prefer the "all is emptyness"-section
        Bolonath Crystal: but i try to be open in this issue
        Lawrence Vyceratops: That was a nice ride...
        Bolonath Crystal: :)
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Do you guys ever talk about the 90 seconds of silence?
        Bolonath Crystal: yes
        Bolonath Crystal: we exchange experiences, as far as possible
        Bolonath Crystal: but many of us often find it difficult to speak about the experience of silence
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Sure, but we can still look at it.
        Bolonath Crystal: yes :)
        Bolonath Crystal: otherwise these sessions would be rather useless ;)
        Lawrence Vyceratops: It's nothing more than the feeling of rolling backward, when you come to a stop in your car.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Like looking at a spot on a piece of paper and looking, to see a dot on the wall.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: You know what I mean?
        Bolonath Crystal: still pondering...
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Have you ever been to a loud concert or drumming circle?
        Bolonath Crystal: yes
        Lawrence Vyceratops: The feeling you get afterward... same thing.
        Bolonath Crystal: hm... let me guess... you experience silence as the absence of noise or sound?
        Lawrence Vyceratops: I never experience true silence, by our common definition of the term.
        Bolonath Crystal: for me silence is something behind noise. it is there even in a loud concert. it is the screen that carries sound rather than the absence of it
        Lawrence Vyceratops: You mean time?
        Bolonath Crystal: hm, that's not what i had in mind - but i see the point. time is necessary to experience sound (or anything)
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Which takes us back to mind and emptiness.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Time and timelessness.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Noise and silence.
        Bolonath Crystal nods
        Bolonath Crystal: time might be a mind-borne thing, too :) in this case it is an experience as well as a condition for experience
        Bolonath Crystal: does time xist, if nothing happens?
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Well.. mind perceives time...
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Is mind separate from time?
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Also, mind perceives something happening, which is time....
        Bolonath Crystal: imo mind doesn't really perceive time. it creates time. so it is separate and not separate from it
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Right. It creates time in thought, you mean?
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, exactly
        Lawrence Vyceratops: And then, there is the phenomenon of "awareness," due to...
        Lawrence Vyceratops: ...there is an awareness, due to the thought process.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: This awareness seems to be more like a phenomenon than an ego.
        Bolonath Crystal: i don't think that thoughts (or even an ego) are necessary for awareness
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Oh, we have to go over awareness again...
        Bolonath Crystal: e.g. plants are aware of light, without (as i suppose) much thinking
        Lawrence Vyceratops: But there is still thinking.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: We couldnt sit up, if there was no brain activituy.
        Bolonath Crystal: awareness might be rather a (or any) form of interaction
        Lawrence Vyceratops: I see awareness as recognition.
        Bolonath Crystal: o i c
        Bolonath Crystal: i see it slightly different
        Lawrence Vyceratops: How so?
        Bolonath Crystal: with awareness we realize something. recognition means to give this "something" a name
        Bolonath Crystal: so recognition is a think-process
        Bolonath Crystal: awareness isn't
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Wait, I'm not clear on the difference...
        Lawrence Vyceratops: What do you mean by "realizing something?"
        Bolonath Crystal: difficult question, lol. i never thought about that
        Bolonath Crystal: realizing means, that the "something" i realize has some effect on me
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Emotional or psychological effect?
        Bolonath Crystal: any effect
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Like touching a hot stove?
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, for example
        Lawrence Vyceratops: How is that different from recognition?
        Bolonath Crystal: or let's say.... there are two electrones. both are carrying a negatice charge, so they repell each other. both electrones are aware of each other, but i don't think they recognize each other
        Lawrence Vyceratops: So, are we trying to see that awareness?
        Lawrence Vyceratops: What are we trying to do again?
        Bolonath Crystal: practice openness. we don't try to see something special. we try to see what happens, if we drop our mind-processes
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Oh, right...
        Bolonath Crystal: if we have certain expectations, we might be misled
        Lawrence Vyceratops: I don't know if that's awareness...
        Lawrence Vyceratops: We can't really "drop" our mind-processes...
        Lawrence Vyceratops: We can just minimize them.
        Bolonath Crystal: well, that's an approach :)
        Lawrence Vyceratops: But, then, that's still not really awareness.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: To me...
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Religions seem to try to "balance" a perceived "imbalance."
        Lawrence Vyceratops: It seems that we come up with moral systems to create a sense of "good."
        Lawrence Vyceratops: And we label the woes of the world as "bad."
        Lawrence Vyceratops: We make a bunch of excuses,w hen the truth is,
        Lawrence Vyceratops: we just need to stop fighting. And start taking care of each other.
        Bolonath Crystal: i agree so far. but the "play as being"-project isn't religious at all. there is a difference between religion and spirituality
        Bolonath Crystal: in this group there are many religions involved :)
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Right.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm still not clear on the spirituality thing, either...
        Lawrence Vyceratops: I see time as being the closest thing to spiritual.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Of course, we're getting back into mind again...
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Sorry about the outburst. It just seems to be the whole point of exploring our religious/moral/spiritual side-thingy...
        Bolonath Crystal: i love outburts :)
        Bolonath Crystal: +s
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Great.
        Lawrence Vyceratops: :)
        Lawrence Vyceratops: There must be a common ground for people to walk on.
    Bolonath Crystal: i am very sorry, but i have to go back to work...
        Lawrence Vyceratops: I have to go to bed!
        Bolonath Crystal: i hope we can continue our talk next time
        Bolonath Crystal: to bed? may i ask where you come from?
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Mississippi. You?
        Bolonath Crystal: oh, i am only half a world away :) germany
        Bolonath Crystal: 11am here
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Ah! Two out of the first four people I met in SL from Germany!
        Lawrence Vyceratops: 2am here.
        Bolonath Crystal smiles
        Bolonath Crystal: thank you very much, lawrence, for sharing your thoughts with me
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Thank you!
        Bolonath Crystal: hope to see you soon :)
        Bolonath Crystal: but for now i have to go
        Lawrence Vyceratops: Same! :) Good day!
        Bolonath Crystal: om shanti :)


    2010.02.10 07:00 - How Do I Present?

    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, who was happily joined by SophiaSharon and Storm for this morning's session. :)

    As a thousand words can be conveyed with one picture, a simple story can reveal a thousand conceptual angles... in a flash. :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon :) Morning!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Good Morning!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: how are you?
    Eliza Madrigal: Another round of storms for you I think... hope all is well
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, great, thanks!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes I'm in a hotel, now bored!
    Eliza Madrigal looks through inventory for entertainment
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but good :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hahaha
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Waiting... in lines and layovers and snowstorms, there is maybe a chance to get still...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh yes,youre right
    Eliza Madrigal: There is so much of that time, that if we can learn to work with it, even enjoy it... well, seems good for integrating all we explore around here :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I tell myself this in traffic
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its very easy to forget in traffic!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (sorry I'm on a slow connection)
    Eliza Madrigal: YES! I have a terrible habit, too, of just turning on the radio and switching channels incessantly...
    Eliza Madrigal: (I'm actually enjoying lag sometimes here... causing me to slow down typing)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: how many ways can the mind be entertained at once
    Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: how many pictures/walls
    Eliza Madrigal: and where do we go while our mind is doing all those things
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes!
    Eliza Madrigal: That seems how we bury ourselves

    Sharon shares what she is currently reading:

    SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm reading a book called Knowledge and Liberation by Anne Klein
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: who states the case for knowledge/academic pursuits for attaining enlightenment
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it is, like everything about this topic, rather dense :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) but interesting...
    Eliza Madrigal: lively
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and is buddhist in orientation, but can be applied to non-buddhist streams of thought as well

    Storm arrives...

    Storm Nordwind: Good morning both :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Storm! I'm on a slow internet connection
    Storm Nordwind remember his days on one of those :-/
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Storm Nordwind: Please don't let me disprupt or interrupt!
    Storm Nordwind: (or even spell correctly this morning!)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: We were just beginning to talk about a book Sharon is reading...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) part of the difficulty reading books like this, is I have so much background work to do, before I understand exactly what the author is saying
    Eliza Madrigal: Many people I think, when they begin devling into spirituality, tend to put aside everything 'else'...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: have you read any of Anne C. Klein books Storm?
    Storm Nordwind: Looks quite academic
    Eliza Madrigal: and maybe that is fine for a while, but one sign of a vibrant spiritual life seems to me, integration....
    Storm Nordwind: I don't think I have Sharon
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes I tend to do that Eliza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: read and narrow down the thoughts so to speak
    Eliza Madrigal nods


    Sharon frames the discussion...

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Its called Knowledge and Liberation, stating that conceptual thought is capable of leading to a transformative experience.... I often think talking about things forever doesn't clarify thought, and the author states the case that its integral for some
    SophiaSharon Larnia: especially while listening to many people
    Storm Nordwind: Conceptual thought can be useful, as a step on the way perhaps, but I don't think it can give you the experience that is central to Buddhist practice
    Storm Nordwind: Just my opinion of course! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, mental flexibility can't hurt.. and the kind of humility that comes from continually running up against one's limitations, etc. It must be the attitude toward it really... not just with 'having' knowledge to wear as a kind of badge...
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Eliza Madrigal: and 'hold one's own'...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: buddhism is kind of the opposite of trying to measure up/hold one's own?
    Eliza Madrigal: (realizes any time she says something like 'buddhism is' she's way off)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)

    Getting comfortable with paradoxal nature ...

    Storm Nordwind: Buddhism is interesting in that people are encouraged to think for themselves, but in the end, for the experience of bliss and emptiness, conceptual thought may be rather limiting. A nice paradox that I enjoy being part of!
    Eliza Madrigal nods enthusiastically
    Storm Nordwind: I was looking at the reviews for her (Klein's) Dzogchen book a minute ago. Interesting review comment: "Good root text but overly philosophical/difficult commentary"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: she says that realizing emptiness is not divorcing yourself from conceptual understanding, but gaining a type of explicit understanding
    Eliza Madrigal: I was reading this morning about the idea of unity of religions... that the trappings of tradition are fine but unimportant once the essence is in play... so conceptions seems same?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it unlocks the ordinary dualistic patterning of conceptual thought
    Storm Nordwind: There are many levels of realizing emptiness. The first step certainly does use conceptual understanding. After that however... :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes its dense Storm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm truthfully not even looking for something in a buddhist sense, just in general
    Eliza Madrigal nods

    Storm gives an overview ...

    Storm Nordwind: As I understand it (and I don't claim exclusive knowledge here!), on the two Paths of Accumulation and Preparation, people need to use Inferential cognizers to realize emptiness. Later, on the Path of Seeing and beyond, there is a direct realization by a non-conceptual mind.
    Eliza Madrigal: It is far more fun to have conceptual conversations and such when things are open.... when there isn't that sense of protecting 'one's own view' etc but really seeing what the play reveals...

    Sharon asks a wonderful question...

    SophiaSharon Larnia: are there ever times when youve bypassed that and saw something, 'in a flash', a glimpse?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, coming to playasbeing :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i think theres some preparation for that
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Eliza :)
    Storm Nordwind: There are two schools of thought: the sudden and gradual paths. I suspect they are not as mutually exclusive as some suggest! ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: THEN you could see all the ways you'd been prepared
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: We were talking about this a little in the wok workshop too... about training in preliminaries...

    My thought doesn't translate very well here. I was noticing the parallel between the way we practice in PlayasBeing: "Just Try/Just See", and the way that we've been discussing lojong in the workshop... that often what would more commonly be called 'practice' comes along with or after direct experience. Just to qualify. :)

    Instinct, Intuition, Intellect...

    SophiaSharon Larnia: the more I delve into concepts, the less I rely on instinct
    Storm Nordwind: Do you see that as good or bad Sharon?
    Eliza Madrigal: that digging into/diving into practice (like pema says "just try"), then maybe the preliminaries are attractive and all in there ... so you aren't practicing to go from step1,2 ,3
    Eliza Madrigal: anyway, just a side issue there :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not a positive, forward motion thing, but not a bad thing. Like having to go to school.
    Storm Nordwind: training in preliminaries is often cited as a preparation for Lojong practice
    Eliza Madrigal: I guess it is all very personal, and there are times to come at things from various angles
    Eliza Madrigal: instinct is a funny question though...
    Eliza Madrigal: the difference between instinct and intuition...
    Eliza Madrigal: and everything in between :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Ive been questioning my instinct
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Storm Nordwind: What really is instinct? Or intuition for that matter? Is this the sum of the various non-rational, non-voiced, non-linear, non-verbalized thoughts we have?
    Eliza Madrigal: Intuition would be that to me I think, Storm...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, that, based on some knowledge obtained in the past, maybe
    Storm Nordwind: Maybe there are many more than a single sources for those
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods

    And well, especially dressed as a fairy, my turn is toward the whimsical... :)

    Eliza Madrigal: If intuituion is 'open' then there it seems Being at play in one's life...
    Eliza Madrigal: (please use your compassion to rearrange the sentence structure-hehe)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thats what I like to think!! Little gifts!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: little hellos
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Storm Nordwind: I sometimes wonder about that Eliza :) Not saying it's not true, but I know people like to ascribe the little things that play in one's life to their current favourite theory, deity, etc etc
    SophiaSharon Larnia: true
    Eliza Madrigal: Most of time, the hellos aren't what we would have figured out on our own...
    Eliza Madrigal: and might not even be comfortable :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: like me being stuck in storms this week, wondering if its my karma for being glad i didnt get stuck before ;p
    Storm Nordwind: But being pragmatic, I notice it anyway, and am simply grateful, without necessarily knowing how it works!
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, Sharon... yes it is difficult not to ask oneself those questions at times
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) Storm

    Eliza Madrigal: I think a lot about 'directness' and immediacy of experience...
    Eliza Madrigal: which seems to arise out of the confidence we've spoken about sometimes...
    Eliza Madrigal: and that confidence of.. hm... intuition?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: where does the confidence come from?
    Storm Nordwind: Yes it's possible to gain confidence in one's intuition. But it does take time, I think.
    Eliza Madrigal: So we plod along...
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Storm Nordwind: I trained myself in being sensitive to intuition around 30 years ago
    Storm Nordwind: From that self-training came a lot of confidence
    Eliza Madrigal: I have what seems a double edge sword in this regard. I can almost not function non-intuitively...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Ive always felt more intuitive than anything else, and relied on it heavily, so much so that some time again i thought it best to examine that
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Storm Nordwind: The key thing I found for me was being able to discriminate between intuition and anything else. That's what took the time.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: some time ago*
    SophiaSharon Larnia: anything else?


    At our urging, Storm shares a story which uncrumples the picture of what we'd been discussing 'conceptually' just before. :)

    Storm Nordwind remembers a wonderful contradictory encounter - intuition vs. intellect - with two psychologists at a Johari window workshop. But he's sure he's told that story before! ;)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Not to me:)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so the anything else you meant is intellect?
    Storm Nordwind: No Sharon. I meant imaginings. memories, other non-intellectual impressions of all kinds
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Eliza Madrigal: Is it a long story? Would you mind sharing it again?
    Storm Nordwind: Short story. I don't mind if you don't! :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes thats what I mean by examining, seeing what part they play in intuition
    SophiaSharon Larnia: please?
    Eliza Madrigal: Would like that!
    Storm Nordwind: OK... :)
    Storm Nordwind grins
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :))

    The log title arrives ...

    Storm Nordwind: I was doing a course in bereavement counseling
    Storm Nordwind: and we had a morning's workshop on the Johari Window
    Storm Nordwind: I'll not go into that...
    Storm Nordwind: but there's surely a Wikipedia article on it somewhere! :)
    Storm Nordwind: Anyway, there were about 20 of us in the workshop
    Storm Nordwind: And the idea was that we had to interview each other in pairs
    Storm Nordwind: (So it took all morning, because all pair combinations had to be done in the whole group!)
    Eliza Madrigal: oh my
    Storm Nordwind: You were supposed to say to each person "How do I present?"
    Storm Nordwind: And they were to give you as honest and objective answers as they could
    Storm Nordwind: Their impressions etc
    johari-window (1).jpgStorm Nordwind: about how you came over to them
    Eliza Madrigal: eek, sounds a bit like speed dating :)
    Storm Nordwind: Haha!!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sounds like it would hard to do :)
    Storm Nordwind: You were supposed to plot their answers on a kind of quadrant graph
    Storm Nordwind: and look for corroboration
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interesting
    Storm Nordwind: to get an overall picture
    Storm Nordwind: Now, there were two professional psychologists in the group
    Storm Nordwind: and when I looked at the graph I had created from people's answers to me
    Storm Nordwind: I found that all but two sets of answers corroborated reasonably well
    Storm Nordwind: and two were outliers
    Storm Nordwind: and outliers in separate directions to each other
    Storm Nordwind: They were the psychologists
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Storm Nordwind: I remember one psychologist saying to me...
    Storm Nordwind: "Storm, you're obviously a very intuitive person... perhaps you should try being a little more intellectual to get some balance."
    Storm Nordwind: And I remember the other psychologist saying to me...
    Storm Nordwind: "Storm, you're obviously a very intellectual person... perhaps you should try being a little more intuitive to get some balance."
    Storm Nordwind: !!!!
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha objective
    Eliza Madrigal: That's great!
    Storm Nordwind: They couldn't see - in fact it was probably impossible in their trained mindset - that it was possible to be highly developed in both at the same time. And to be fully integrated.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: does that experience make you think of the exercise as being not useful?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ahhh i see what you mean
    Eliza Madrigal: My cheeks might pop off from smiling. Well worth taking the morning for the exercize... seems like a koan
    Storm Nordwind: Apparantly they couldn't see that, but everyone else - who were not psychologists - did!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting, their training got in the way?
    Eliza Madrigal: both were true... but they weren't 'allowed' to see that both were true
    Storm Nordwind: So it seems, yes Sharon
    Storm Nordwind: Yes Eliza!! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I love that, so glad you shared it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you :)
    Storm Nordwind smiles humbly :)
    Eliza Madrigal: We don't need to leave anything out
    Eliza Madrigal: And another funny aspect is how others see us...
    Eliza Madrigal: that it can be so drastically different from what we expect they see
    Eliza Madrigal: Neat exercize, actually
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Storm Nordwind: Yes. That's what the Johari Window is about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johari_window


    My mind wanders a bit to times when information blind-to-me had been a factor to perceptions ...

    Eliza Madrigal: When my son changed schools a few years ago, I noticed right away how deferential people were to me... how the teachers were so friendly and respectful.. the principal, etc. Later, I found out that because I like to read articles on memory and such, that he'd told everyone I was "someone important with the brain"... heheh... I learned a lot from that :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i'll open that later, I'm afraid I'll crash :))
    Storm Nordwind: That's a wonderful story too Eliza! Thank you for that :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))

    :) Storm's mischief making side...

    Storm Nordwind: I tried a similar thing deliberately once... as a bit of mischief I guess! :)
    Storm Nordwind hesitates to tell that one
    Eliza Madrigal: an experiment?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ha!
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Storm Nordwind: I was working somewhere where there was a communal office fridge
    Storm Nordwind: And people kept stealing my butter that I kept there
    Storm Nordwind: So I capitalized on my reputation...
    Storm Nordwind: and wrote on it in big letters...
    Storm Nordwind: "Anyone who steals from this will be cursed."
    Eliza Madrigal: Ack!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh my!
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Storm Nordwind: No one ever stole from it again!
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Storm Nordwind: hehe!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i guess not hahaha
    Eliza Madrigal: well, you captilalized on superstitions too...
    Eliza Madrigal: wonder how many butter stealers sat there wrestling....
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Storm Nordwind: Well they knew I could, but they didn't know I wouldn't! ;)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: with themselves, with their larger paradigms...
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: I like that in this johari window it has a square for 'blind spots'
    Storm Nordwind: (Prior to that people just put their names on things, and those names were always ignored)
    Eliza Madrigal: sigh, roommates :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Storm I know what thats like, and I think its hysterical
    Storm Nordwind: Blind spot - what's known to others but not to oneself (or denied by oneself)
    Eliza Madrigal: seems a place of potential, oddly :)
    Eliza Madrigal: "the realm of the blindingly obvious"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ha!
    Storm Nordwind: Well please excuse me, and thank you for the chat. I must go jump in the tub prior to going to the dentist this morning :-/
    Eliza Madrigal: Ohh... um, enjoy?
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: Have a great day, Storm. Thanks for coming :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Storm, talk to you later :))
    Eliza Madrigal makes note to make her dentist appt
    Storm Nordwind: I might not make any meetings in SL for the rest of the day!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: aww
    Eliza Madrigal: Silent day :)
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
    SophiaSharon Larnia: namaste
    Eliza Madrigal: Namaste' :)
    Eliza Madrigal: What an interesting conversation...
    Eliza Madrigal: with such practical applications !
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    SophiaSharon Larnia loves practical applications :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)))
    Eliza Madrigal: Direct experience
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm going to go too, for now
    Eliza Madrigal: At least you have a book when stuck in the snow...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes! and internet access!! what a treat!
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, right!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Eliza Madrigal: Glad you came this morning :) See you soon
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now


    2010.02.10 13:00 - PaB As A Lab

    The Guardian for this meeting was No Self - Since Fefonz couldn't get in world. The comments are by Fefonz.

    Liza Deischer: hi Wol
    Wol Euler: hello liza!
    Wol Euler: hallo bert
    Liza Deischer: hi bert
    Bertram Jacobus: hi ladies ! ... :-)
    Liza Deischer: there are not many people who say that to me :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. okay. you know - my bad english ... .O)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: how are you today ? :-)
    Wol Euler: struggling a bit, to be honest
    Liza Deischer: how come?
    Bertram Jacobus: struggle with something special ?
    Wol Euler: hard to say. Unhappiness, feelings of futility
    Wol Euler: stuck in a rut of my own making
    Wol Euler: the usual :)
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - youֲ´re not alone wol (!) ...
    Bertram Jacobus: i know this
    Liza Deischer: you call that usual :-)
    Wol Euler: hold that thought, sorry, I have to step out for a moment :(
    Bertram Jacobus: most may know - may be all ...
    Liza Deischer: yes, probably, and it tells us something that we classify that as usual
    Liza Deischer: while it refers to a deep feeling of unhappiness
    Bertram Jacobus: hello fael and yaku ! ... :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Liza Deischer: hi Yaku
    Bertram Jacobus: and bleu :-)
    Fael Illyar: hmm... I thought wol said something about coming to geek here.
    Liza Deischer: she was around
    Bleu Oleander: hi!
    Liza Deischer: hi Fael, Bleu
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bleu, welcome to the guardian group
    Liza Deischer: she was coming back, she said
    Bleu Oleander: thanks!
    Liza Deischer: yes, welcome bleu (now feeling the need to spell the name right from now on :-))
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know if you already got one of these :)
    Bleu Oleander: no i never did, ty!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but sometime´s if somebody says the magic words it´s usefull, wol gave it to me when i became a guardian :P
    Bleu Oleander: thanks!
    Fael Illyar: ah, looks like I need to go :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: haven´t seen the sillyness before that :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi and bye :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye fael
    Bleu Oleander: bye
    Liza Deischer: bey fael
    Liza Deischer: a little late
    Bleu Oleander: how is the time workshop going Yaku?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: It´s still a confusing book for me, but pema is a good moderator.
    Bleu Oleander: it's rather confusing for me too
    Bertram Jacobus: what is confusing about it ?
    Bertram Jacobus: hello ara ... :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: You should really join that workshop as well bleu since you read the book.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara
    Liza Deischer: hey ara
    Yakuzza Lethecus: missed you at TSK
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Bleu Oleander: i'll try ... the time is hard for me
    arabella Ella: oh was TSK today? Oh noooo
    Bleu Oleander: hi Ara
    arabella Ella: Hiya Bleu welcome as a Guardian!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, it was 4 am for pema :)
    Bleu Oleander: thanks Ara
    arabella Ella: owwww poor Pema
    Yakuzza Lethecus: since he´s in japan again
    Bleu Oleander: harder for him!
    arabella Ella: only tough though if you need to get up early for morning appointments or meetings
    Liza Deischer: nice glasses ara
    arabella Ella whispers ... thanks Liza!
    Liza Deischer: i try to figure out who should be claiming the log
    Liza Deischer: but I'm not handy in finding it :-)
    arabella Ella: I think Wed is generally Fef but I have no idea if there were any changes
    Liza Deischer: wb wol
    Wol Euler: ty
    Bleu Oleander: hi Wol
    Wol Euler: hello bleu, welcome!
    arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino Hi Wol
    Bleu Oleander: ty!
    Bleu Oleander: hi Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Helo Ara :)
    Liza Deischer: hi cal
    Bertram Jacobus: hi cal :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: re wol :-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: whatever.
    arabella Ella: Hey everyone we are so quiet here tonight ... any topics?
    Calvino Rabeni: "Can we make conjectures, hypotheses about what Being could be, and play with those in our day-to-day life? What happens when we do?"
    Calvino Rabeni: (from PaB web site)
    arabella Ella: intruiging
    Calvino Rabeni: My question is - do you do "experiments"?
    arabella Ella: and ... 'should' we make conjectures hypothesis etc ... or should be just let Being be?
    Calvino Rabeni: "Play as Being is a group of people exploring reality by using our own life as a laboratory. "
    Wol Euler: hello lawrence
    Wol Euler: have you been here before?
    Bertram Jacobus: heyy lawrence - nice to meet you again (!) ... :-))
    Liza Deischer: hi Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi. I've been here once.
    Wol Euler: ah, that answers my wquestion :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi, everyone.
    Wol Euler: so you know about the website and publishing the meeting?
    arabella Ella: Hi Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I am aware.
    Bertram Jacobus: (but we met at the buddha land) ... ;-)
    Wol Euler: good, ty :)
    Liza Deischer: Are you asking for being or playing?
    Wol Euler: hello TH
    Liza Deischer: hi TH
    Bertram Jacobus: hello th ... :-)
    TH Ordinary: hello!
    Bleu Oleander: hey TH
    Liza Deischer: brb
    Yakuzza Lethecus sneakes into his warm bed, night everyone!
    Calvino Rabeni: My question was - do you "experiment"?
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye yakusan
    Bleu Oleander: nite Yaku
    Wol Euler: night yaku, schlaf gut
    Calvino Rabeni: What are the barriers to "experiment", if it is difficult in some way?
    arabella Ella: do you think it is difficult to 'experiment' Calvino?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: What is the topic of discussion?
    Calvino Rabeni: Let's say you encounter a friend unexpectely, then remember the 9-second idea, and use it, then look at it as an opportunity
    Calvino Rabeni: The meeting with your friend is your life, and right then it becomes your "laboratory"
    Wol Euler nods.
    Calvino Rabeni: So do you make a hypothesis, make an experiment, try something new, see if it works out as expected ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Or is there some difficulty?
    Bertram Jacobus: seems to be the pab practise law ...
    arabella Ella: nite Yaku
    Calvino Rabeni: Which would also be part of the experiment :)
    Wol Euler: oh, I think I get it. You are asking whether the word "experiment" is appropriate for using mindfulness to examine our lives?
    Wol Euler: hello mick
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Sorry, I was late... What is the experiment?
    arabella Ella: I think there is a lot more to PaB than simply the 9 sec pause
    arabella Ella: there are all the APA, etc
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya
    arabella Ella: (cant remember all the names right now)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm asking - do you actually do "experiments" and what do they consist of - what is your experience with doing such experiments
    Bertram Jacobus: hi mick ! ... :-)
    Liza Deischer: hi mick
    Calvino Rabeni: Any lab reports ? :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, "the experiment" is the 9 second micro meditation all 15 minutes lawrence ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Play as Being is a radical concept and as so, I think one is justified in expecting a fair amount of "resistance"
    TH Ordinary: if you are 'practicing beeing' are you being?
    Liza Deischer: minfulness to me is something different then experimenting. But experiments can come into play. But if I think I can harm someone, I always check my motivation
    Mickorod Renard: I guess its about what we may find out about our daily lives through taking time to observe
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea of PlayAsBeing - at least originally - has a very experimental - that is active - component
    arabella Ella: yes Calvino we discussed this a bit at the Malta retreat
    Calvino Rabeni: that is ... what do you *do* with your awareness in your life?
    Liza Deischer: to me mindfulness is an activity
    arabella Ella: but i think a lot of PaB involves mindfulness as part of the experiement
    Liza Deischer: and can give very different results then you expected
    Bleu Oleander: we try to look "at" what we normally look "through"
    arabella Ella: like the one 'Being Seeing'
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is the first bit of "equipment" for the experiment - mindfulness
    Calvino Rabeni: The challenge is - can mindfulness open any real doors in your real life experience
    Mickorod Renard: then there are different perspectives than just the routine that we get trapped in
    Calvino Rabeni: The door handle can be grasped, turned, opened
    Wol Euler: or licked...
    Liza Deischer: mindfulness can be a trigger to do things differently, because you can learn that your approach is only based on patterns, not on openess
    Calvino Rabeni: And so I'm curious, what experiments have been done?
    Calvino Rabeni: And then what happened?
    Calvino Rabeni: The practice is not just a concept, a possibility
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a doing in a place and a time
    arabella Ella: all the experiments done here with Pema are recorded in various places on the web, mainly on Kira wiki I guess
    Liza Deischer: ah, now I understand you
    Calvino Rabeni: And in one's daily life - "Play as Being is a group of people exploring reality by using our own life as a laboratory. "
    Mickorod Renard: much is self discovery,,and as such private other than what is shared here
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm trying to be a little "fundamentalist" here
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes privacy is worth respecting
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Have to go... Hope to join the group again... Good Day! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The question then is - do you do experiments "in private" even if you don't want to report them :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Law
    Liza Deischer: bye lawrence
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Lawrence
    Liza Deischer: oh yes
    arabella Ella: Well Calvino, there are a number of experiments many of which we used to do with Pema here some months back
    Mickorod Renard: personally, I do them daily,,and find that they now form part of my routine
    Bleu Oleander: like what Ara?
    arabella Ella: and many of them may be described as different variants of either mindfulness or phenomenology
    Liza Deischer: i think I know what youre asking for, but it is hard to get personal about that
    Calvino Rabeni: No, I mean real experiments - you become aware, look at your life around you, then say "now what"?
    Liza Deischer: because most of them are
    arabella Ella: but you dont look at 'your life around you' that would be too generalistic ... you need to be more specific
    Calvino Rabeni: The resistance to doing the experiments - and the resistance to not being "private" - are related?
    Calvino Rabeni: Ara, that is exactly my point
    Liza Deischer: no, not to me
    arabella Ella: like looking at a strong emotion that arises or looking at something that attracts your attention when outdoors or what
    Wol Euler: hello laura, born today :) welcome to SL
    Mickorod Renard: I do feel there is a limit that I have reached that I would like to overcome
    Bertram Jacobus: hello laura
    Laura Blackcinder: hi
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Laura
    Liza Deischer: hi Laura
    Wol Euler: I'll give you an introduction in IM so we don't disturb the others
    TH Ordinary: hi Laura
    Bleu Oleander: hi laura
    Laura Blackcinder: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: LImits are a way to notice the structure, and get a handle on it - that is halfway to formulating an "experiment"
    Liza Deischer: somehow this setting doesn't give me the opportunity to get into that
    Liza Deischer: and its not about the people
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, maybe a mpre private setting would
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    arabella Ella: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, I can say - yes, I do the experiments
    Liza Deischer: I think it is more about environment
    Calvino Rabeni: And then, I have some resistance to specifying the particulars
    Liza Deischer: you need to get to that place
    arabella Ella: and your question Calvino is then ... what do the experiments do for me?
    Liza Deischer: and not just you, but everyone
    Calvino Rabeni: Is "that place" an external thing, or a state of mind, Liza
    Liza Deischer: state of mind
    Liza Deischer: but you need to be able to share that
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Liza Deischer: and sometimes it is here
    arabella Ella: ok i could try to use a simple example from today Calvino
    Liza Deischer: I don't feel it is here today
    arabella Ella: of Being seeing
    Liza Deischer: please do ara
    Mickorod Renard: some experiments have been rewarding in revealing results that I have been satisfied with,,,but that often opens up more possibilities
    arabella Ella: i went for a walk in the countryside today on my own ... nice and peaceful
    arabella Ella: and it was raining
    arabella Ella: and at one point i stopped to watch spinklers on a small patch (field) sprinkling water in the rain and the spray flying around ... all on a small scale
    arabella Ella: and i focussed on Being seing
    arabella Ella: and let my mind play with that idea
    arabella Ella: and it was all very serene and peaceful and in my humble opinion ...
    Bleu Oleander: do these experiments reveal anything other than how the mind seems first personally?
    Calvino Rabeni: I have seen, it is hard for people to share their "experments here" - but important to do them - and sometimes sharing helps others as well as oneself
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, Ara
    arabella Ella: it helps us to get better 'grip' (?) on our thinking and gives us more serenity both for ourselves and others around us
    Liza Deischer: true
    Liza Deischer: thanks ara
    Liza Deischer: serenity is not the goal
    Calvino Rabeni: And there's a kind of "meta" or bigger experiment - one's life is such an experiment
    arabella Ella: it actually involves dropping everything else except the specific experience (or emotion) which one is focussing on
    Calvino Rabeni: Serenity could be the experiment's observable
    Mickorod Renard: thats true Calvino,,but some of us here have revealed lots in earlier sessions,,maybe a year back, and now feel that we would be repeating old hat
    arabella Ella: what is the goal Liza?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not a goal in the "big" experiment, but in the small one, yes
    Liza Deischer: to me it is for now to become a better human being,
    arabella Ella: ok possibly
    Liza Deischer: to myself and others
    Liza Deischer: it is about compassion
    arabella Ella: or perhaps to make the world a better place for all ... altho that may sound rather bland
    Liza Deischer: especially when I or somebody els is struggeling
    Liza Deischer: it is easy to give space to good, serene feelings, but not very hard when they are not
    arabella Ella: true Liza ... if I understood what you said :)
    Calvino Rabeni: @mick, is it possible to "run out" of new experiments and then risk repetition?
    Liza Deischer: it is nice to be nice to someone, but hard when you realize somebody needs something else
    arabella Ella: but i think it is all a matter of practice and building up skill in 'dropping'
    Liza Deischer: that's a good start
    Calvino Rabeni: @liza, I think it fine to have a purpose or goal for what to do with the knowledge gained in the experiment
    arabella Ella: @Liza it is even harder when you find out someone else is trying to manipulate you with deception!
    Mickorod Renard: without sounding selfish, I find that I can articulate well being better when my own sense of well being is good and I can therefore see more clearly
    Calvino Rabeni: It is like applied science, R & D
    Liza Deischer: *but very hard when they are not (made a mistake a fel lines back)
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand, Mick
    arabella Ella: yes Calvino that is precisely how Pema described it ... applied science
    arabella Ella: (thought so)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, very scientific,as Pema framed it up
    arabella Ella: yes
    Liza Deischer: yes are, for example
    Calvino Rabeni: And theories need testing :)
    arabella Ella: Pema also has a you tube video with similar ideas
    Liza Deischer: I think I now what you mean Mick, but to me feeling good doesn't make things clear
    Calvino Rabeni: Or vice versa,necessarily
    Liza Deischer: but if you say sense of well being, then it sounds like something is growing inside, that gives you another and more clear perspective on yourself
    Mickorod Renard: it helps to be able to see through things when one isnt clouded by issues
    Calvino Rabeni: But, I think one can cultivat clear state of mind, or at least, see the presence of such as an opportunity
    Liza Deischer: or to look at the issue that is in front of you
    Calvino Rabeni: But a bigger freedom is to see through whatever is the present case, clear or cloudy
    arabella Ella: yes Calvino and here this may link with the I Ching too
    Liza Deischer: true, but you need to start somewhere
    arabella Ella: and change is always there somewhere
    Mickorod Renard: I often do it for collegues, other than myself,,when they are at a wits end,,stepping back from an issue to reavaluate is simple and productive
    Liza Deischer: yes, it is
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a useful maneuver Mick
    Liza Deischer: yes, it is :-)
    Wol Euler nods.
    Liza Deischer: but how do you do that when you are full of anger?
    Calvino Rabeni: PaB practice could be a quick way to draw back like that, and then "re-enter" with extra resources
    arabella Ella would just like to say excuse me Pema if I have explained it all incorrectly :)
    Liza Deischer: or feel completely unhappy
    Mickorod Renard: dropping is easier under some circumstances than others
    Calvino Rabeni: Remember - dropping can be partial
    Calvino Rabeni: You drop just enough to free up some attention
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: and then leap back into the fray
    arabella Ella: We have discussed those with Pema here Liza ... emotions ... and stopping ... and dropping ... and somehow taking on a different perspective through dropping time too
    Calvino Rabeni: or maelstrom, or cauldron :)
    Liza Deischer: okay
    Calvino Rabeni: WIth "multilevel" attention that now has more than one perspective
    Calvino Rabeni: additional freedom that wasn't there before
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    arabella Ella: Another exercise which Pema sometimes suggests is seeing life like a movie, frame by frame
    Calvino Rabeni: It is not practical to go to the monastery, and come back in several years when no longer angry
    Bertram Jacobus: frame by frame = picture by picture ?
    Mickorod Renard: and also watching ourselves as like a parent watching a child
    Liza Deischer: the only thing I try to say is that clearing your mind is not always an easy thing to do
    arabella Ella: yes Bert
    Liza Deischer: and not always peaceful
    Bertram Jacobus: ty :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: The difficult situation is the arena of practice
    Bleu Oleander: like a detached observer
    Liza Deischer: yes mick, that is where the compassion comes in
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: detached AND fully engaged
    arabella Ella: well Liza I doubt whether it is easy for those who have been practising for years and years either
    Mickorod Renard: we can be very forgiving for our own children
    Liza Deischer: that is easy to sat Cal, but how do you do that?
    Bertram Jacobus: hello fogtenk
    Calvino Rabeni: and forgiving of one's own internal children
    Liza Deischer: and we should also do so for ourselfs and others
    Mickorod Renard: also there is the story
    arabella Ella: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think it's difficult in many cases, Liza
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you think it is difficult "in general"?
    Bertram Jacobus: iֲ´ll jump away - ty as always, have a good time - bfn ... :-)
    Liza Deischer: it's the few others cases that matters most, most of the time
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Bert
    Mickorod Renard: the story can lead in may directions,,but we can choose to some extent which path to buy into
    Liza Deischer: bi bert
    arabella Ella: nite Bert!
    Wol Euler: bye bert, take care
    Bleu Oleander: bye bert'
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Mickorod Renard: bye bert
    TH Ordinary: bye
    Liza Deischer: but maybe I should shut up :-)
    Wol Euler: certainly not, liza
    Calvino Rabeni: No Liza
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Liza Deischer: because I have a feeling it sounds harsher, then I mean
    arabella Ella: please dont shut up Liza I think we can all identify with what you are describing
    Mickorod Renard: dont u dare shut up Liza {)
    Wol Euler: clarification is always good :)
    Liza Deischer: okay, I won't
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    arabella Ella: :)
    Wol Euler grins.
    Calvino Rabeni: Liza is usefully looking at the experience, I believe valuably
    Liza Deischer: (she said a bit.....eh...insecure)
    arabella Ella: well when very strong emotions arise in our selves like when someone deliberately does something to wind us up or hurt us, then it is not easy to deal with, but according to Pema, not impossible
    Mickorod Renard: I feel so ambarrassed inside myself, when I know all these idea's and yet at times cannot find the effort to manage my own anger
    Liza Deischer: yes, indeed, and I think Cal's questiong is (but I'm not sure) is how we experiment with that
    Bleu Oleander: bye everybody :)
    TH Ordinary: bye all, thanks!
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Bleu
    Liza Deischer: It would be my question
    Liza Deischer: be th
    Wol Euler: bye bleu, bye th
    Liza Deischer: bye gleu
    Calvino Rabeni: Experiments with Anger
    Liza Deischer: Bleu
    arabella Ella: well IMHO when for example we get very angry ... we need to stop, pause and ask ... why am i angry ... what can i do about this ... what if i let this simply be?
    Mickorod Renard: bye bleu
    Calvino Rabeni: or depression, or fear, just to name a few emotions
    Liza Deischer: somehow I don't seem to be albe to write the name Bleu right
    Wol Euler: :)
    Liza Deischer: fear is a diffecult one
    Wol Euler nods to Mick. That's the core of it, yes, applying what we know to ourselves
    Liza Deischer: but I think you're right ella
    arabella Ella: and we could then realise that there is absolutely nothing we could do cos our anger is the anger of others ... not really ours
    Calvino Rabeni: all very compelling aspects of experience
    arabella Ella: so simply ... Let it Be
    Calvino Rabeni: and tend to cover up "awareness"
    arabella Ella: why?
    Liza Deischer: no, but that anger can trigger our anger
    Calvino Rabeni: People sometimes hope these will "go away" if ignored or dropped
    Liza Deischer: it did, because otherwise we wouldn't become angry
    Calvino Rabeni: But they come back to bite, if they are pushed into a shadow area
    Liza Deischer: yes, but I think you say soething valuable there cal
    arabella Ella: exactly Liza ... so if our anger is triggered by others ... what is it really?
    Liza Deischer: dropped or ignored
    arabella Ella: should it be there at all?
    Liza Deischer: that is a big difference
    Liza Deischer: and how do we make the distinction between those two
    Liza Deischer: are we really dropping
    Liza Deischer: or are we ignoring
    Mickorod Renard: not buying into someone elses story is something one needs to understand
    Liza Deischer: the it is your anger
    Liza Deischer: then
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed, good questions
    arabella Ella: not ignore ... it is there
    arabella Ella: just put it into perspective then 'drop'
    arabella Ella: due to the futility
    Calvino Rabeni: A shallow "drop" will buy a little free attention
    Liza Deischer: there is another techniec that is doing the opposite
    Calvino Rabeni: A deeper "drop" may be more permanent
    Mickorod Renard: it helps me to view others as living their own story,,I have my own,,in that way there is some seperation that allows self determination
    Liza Deischer: (not being able to shut up anyway) yes, but 'giving' it back is opening the way of not looking what is going on with you
    arabella Ella: no one said 'giving it back' .... just realising that someone else wishes it on you ... but why should you take it on?
    Calvino Rabeni: Any story is true and also misleading, since it puts you in a perspective from which some things are accessible and others are hidden
    Liza Deischer: you already did by getting angry
    Liza Deischer: to me it is more interesting to see why it makes me angry
    Liza Deischer: what is it triggering in me
    Mickorod Renard: that is a good point Liza
    Liza Deischer: even if I fully understand that the angers initially comes from somebody else
    Mickorod Renard: and we often bundle emotions into one angry catagory
    arabella Ella: anger or other emotions are often triggered due to a mis match (dissonance) between what we expect and what actually happens
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I think Liza is suggesting a kind of experimental approach - with one objective is to get insight
    Calvino Rabeni: even if it is at the cost of not immediately "resolving" or bringing "peace"
    arabella Ella: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Or do I misinterpret somewhat?
    Mickorod Renard: maybe some anger can be depleted by seeing it as say,,,,frustration or sadness
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they can be related Mick
    Liza Deischer: if you let anger get the better of it
    Liza Deischer: sometimes frustration comes up
    Liza Deischer: or sadness
    Calvino Rabeni: Anger is sometimes called a "secondary" emotion
    Liza Deischer: anger is never going to stay
    arabella Ella: for myself ... the irony is the HUGE difference in perceiving anger in others ... and perceiving it in our own selves (obejctive and subjective perspetvies)
    Liza Deischer: nor any other emotion
    Calvino Rabeni: Meaning there is something "underneath" it
    Liza Deischer: to see it moving around is interesting
    Mickorod Renard: anger can cause self damage,,thats what we want to avoid
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Liza Deischer: you don't get angry t there is nothing to be angry about
    Mickorod Renard: Wrath on the other hand is managable
    Calvino Rabeni: you don't want to be a masochist
    Liza Deischer: if you don't feel it
    Calvino Rabeni: Wrath is outer-directed
    Calvino Rabeni: Sadism is unhealty outer-directed
    Liza Deischer: I understand what you mean ara, and yes that is hard
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Calvino Rabeni: The level of sadism / masochism is a lower consciousness state of anger
    Liza Deischer: yes anger can couse damage
    Liza Deischer: good point
    Liza Deischer: but that is when you try to ignore it
    Calvino Rabeni: Hopefully more awareness would raise it to a constructive level
    Liza Deischer: or become anger
    Mickorod Renard: I work in a school,,wrath is everywhere,,but it doesnt seem to effect the heart of those needeing to use it
    arabella Ella whispers ... nite all must go now :)
    Liza Deischer: bye ara, mick
    Wol Euler: bye ara, bye mick
    Mickorod Renard: I need to get home guys,,it was and is good chatting
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye
    Liza Deischer: that was fast ara :-)
    Mickorod Renard: yikes
    arabella Ella: he he
    arabella Ella: cant TP
    Calvino Rabeni: Come back soon :)
    Liza Deischer: mick was having problems also
    Wol Euler: I too must go, my dears.
    Wol Euler: business to attend to
    Wol Euler: bye for now, take care
    Liza Deischer: okay wol, see you
    Calvino Rabeni: Was good 2 have you here Wol :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Liza Deischer: I think I need to read this log :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a lot in it - and even more lurking just nearby
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: The "penumbra"
    Liza Deischer: but it also makes me insecure talking like this :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Learning to go easy :)
    Liza Deischer: I'm not so outgoing
    Liza Deischer: normally :-)
    Liza Deischer: oenumbra?
    Liza Deischer: penumbra
    Calvino Rabeni: That is the partly lighted area around a planetary body during an eclipse
    Calvino Rabeni: the metaphor of the light and the partial shadow
    Calvino Rabeni: there are always many more implicit, unspoken things that get attracted around any conversation or idea
    Liza Deischer: ah, ok
    Liza Deischer: the attraction of the body
    Liza Deischer: planet what ever
    Liza Deischer: you crashed
    Calvino Rabeni: oops - sorry :)
    Liza Deischer: interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: The nature of what happens here in the group, is very influenced by the relationships the members have with each other
    Liza Deischer: how does it feel right now?
    Calvino Rabeni: understanding and /or trust
    Calvino Rabeni: It feels, there is always a gray zone near the penumbra
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: being energized, maybe some fear
    Calvino Rabeni: a dynamic mix between excitement and fear, like characteristic of "risky" sports for example
    Liza Deischer: yes, but that is the fear most want to leave out
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure they do, they for the main part stay comfortable\
    Liza Deischer: and this kind of fear is very interesting
    Liza Deischer: because you just stepped over you boundary
    Calvino Rabeni: Except, there are people that enjoy different levels of risk
    Liza Deischer: I have the same feeling about myself tonight
    Calvino Rabeni: and all boundaries are flexible, and change somewhat when waked near
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: some people don't understand fear
    Liza Deischer: so they look for it
    Calvino Rabeni: Athletes know it in physical areas of experience
    Liza Deischer: to at least get the excitement from it
    Calvino Rabeni: Fear + consciousness often becomes excitement
    Calvino Rabeni: And in one sense, those are not actually separate "emotions"
    Liza Deischer: yes but that is the spinooff from the fear
    Calvino Rabeni: just labels that say something about how resourced one is when encountering the experience
    Liza Deischer: hi Quin
    Quin Maven: hi
    Liza Deischer: you've been here before?
    Quin Maven: i have
    Liza Deischer: you know that we are still recording?
    Quin Maven: no
    Liza Deischer: it means that what you say is going to be recorded and placed on a website
    Liza Deischer: unless you don't want that
    Quin Maven: no i don't want that
    Liza Deischer: then maybe it is better not to stay
    Liza Deischer: or only listen
    Liza Deischer: he has been here before
    Calvino Rabeni: Usually visitors say OK to that issue
    Liza Deischer: explained how it works
    Calvino Rabeni: You have seem Quin here?
    Liza Deischer: but keep coming back :-)
    Liza Deischer: I think so
    Liza Deischer: yes, though some do leaf
    Liza Deischer: but then they leaf :-)
    Liza Deischer: leave
    Liza Deischer: as you would expect
    Liza Deischer: that's why I asked to be certain he understands
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, I'm expecting a RL phone call pretty soon, now is a good time to get ready for it
    Calvino Rabeni: GTG Liza, see you later :)
    Liza Deischer: see you later


    2010.02.10 19:00 - Talking Stick

    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

    Sylectra Darwin joined me after the second gong. I brought up her recent experiences with Quaker meetings

    stevenaia Michinaga: hey there
    Sylectra Darwin: hey :)
    Sylectra Darwin: So you guys wear a host tag now?
    stevenaia Michinaga: want to play...quaker
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Sylectra Darwin: that's different.
    Sylectra Darwin: sure
    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s been a while
    Sylectra Darwin: indeed
    Sylectra Darwin: I can't believe I am still awake! hehe
    stevenaia Michinaga: did you shovel today?
    Sylectra Darwin: yes, we dug out the car twice.
    stevenaia Michinaga: we only got 14" of snow
    Sylectra Darwin: only?
    Sylectra Darwin: God must hate you.
    stevenaia Michinaga: other places got more
    Sylectra Darwin: LOL
    stevenaia Michinaga: I love snow
    Sylectra Darwin: did you shovel?
    stevenaia Michinaga: all the manly men with their snowblowers with lights, me with my shovel
    Sylectra Darwin: I bet you showed em up!
    stevenaia Michinaga: good excerise
    stevenaia Michinaga: in short bursts
    Sylectra Darwin: yes I think so. Jim did most of the shoveling but he did let me help toward the end. Then he tricked me and said it was all done, and when I put the shovel down he started again
    stevenaia Michinaga: smart man
    Sylectra Darwin: tricky.
    stevenaia Michinaga: we made turkey sup today
    Sylectra Darwin: No more fountain?
    Sylectra Darwin: Yum
    stevenaia Michinaga: figured few would be here so I turned it off
    stevenaia Michinaga: put away the outer cushions
    Sylectra Darwin: Is that pretty easy to do?
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Sylectra Darwin: Wow, cool
    stevenaia Michinaga: hehe
    Sylectra Darwin: I like the flower thingy.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I have one in my hair too, Fael made them
    Sylectra Darwin: cams in for a look
    Sylectra Darwin: aw, aren't you pretty?
    Sylectra Darwin: A little pink flower on your head.
    stevenaia Michinaga: well the big one would look silly on me
    Sylectra Darwin: Might...
    Sylectra Darwin: Might also weigh you down.
    Sylectra Darwin: brb
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods, ok
    Sylectra Darwin: OK I am back
    Sylectra Darwin: So what's new?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was doing a quick Chi Gung :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: warming me up after coming in from shoveling before PaB
    Sylectra Darwin: I was just reading about that...it's like tai chi right?
    stevenaia Michinaga: my cat can sleep through anything, except when I go Tai Chi , then he needs to throw me off balance at my feet
    Sylectra Darwin: does he also do that when you do Chi Gung?
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Sylectra Darwin: aha
    stevenaia Michinaga: I wnat to make a video of it
    stevenaia Michinaga: just keeps wondering around my feet
    Sylectra Darwin: your kitty is being decidely un-zen
    Sylectra Darwin: So have you ever done group meditation (apart from PaB)?
    stevenaia Michinaga: with yin there needs to be yang
    stevenaia Michinaga: no
    stevenaia Michinaga: is that what you do now on sundays with your group?
    Sylectra Darwin: Yes, we sit in silence for an hour and listen for guidance, or messages, or that still small voice, or whatever you want to call it.
    Sylectra Darwin: Sometimes someone feels led to speak out of the silence, and they are welcome to do so in the group.
    stevenaia Michinaga: what does it bring out?
    Sylectra Darwin: There is no leader and all are considered to have wisdom worth sharing.
    Sylectra Darwin: Some pretty profound stuff.
    stevenaia Michinaga: a respectful place to begin
    stevenaia Michinaga: how many people participate?
    Sylectra Darwin: Messages about the value of peace, the brighter side of bad circumstances, the challenge of staying serene.
    Sylectra Darwin: Most speak with humility and don't assume the others will agree with them.
    Sylectra Darwin: Usually about 30-40, sitting in a circle with an empty center.
    stevenaia Michinaga: how much is words, how much is silence
    Sylectra Darwin: It's a beautiful, simple room - round with vertical windows spaced evenly all around. You can see the woods and deer out there.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Cal
    Sylectra Darwin: We might only hear a few people say something in an hour - like maybe 3-4 sentences total in a whole hour.

    Calvino Rabeni Joined us with a Talking Stick in hand


    Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Stevenaia and Sylectra
    Sylectra Darwin: Hi Cal!
    stevenaia Michinaga: wow
    Sylectra Darwin: Whatcha got there, Cal?
    Sylectra Darwin: Looks native american.
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a "talking stick" for use when people do council in a big circle
    stevenaia Michinaga: Have you met Sylectra, Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not formally :)
    Sylectra Darwin: :) hello!
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Sylectra !
    Sylectra Darwin: How are you doing?
    stevenaia Michinaga: she was an early Guardian
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Well as can be :)
    Sylectra Darwin: yup, had a session per week for about a year.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I;ve heard of talking sticks
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember the name, maybe from the old logs
    stevenaia Michinaga: probably seen them on TV
    Sylectra Darwin: We passed a feather in the give-away circle that Mom and Dave hosted after their vision quests.
    Sylectra Darwin: I love the ritual and how it affects conversation.
    stevenaia Michinaga: your mother was native american, Sylectra?
    Sylectra Darwin: she was a friend to many native americans, especially the Pima tribe in Southern Arizona.
    Calvino Rabeni: I love the talking stick in groups too
    Sylectra Darwin: She and Dave lent their abilities to help many end their drug or alcohol dependencies.
    Sylectra Darwin: They asked the medicine man for help in putting together the vision quests so they could be respectful of their ways.
    Sylectra Darwin: Pima, Navaho and Lakota Sioux medicine people visited their gatherings to supervise and help. They were always free to anyone who needed to attend. Many people used the events to begin the road back to health after quitting drugs or alcohol.
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Steven's heard the story. :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I ahve?
    stevenaia Michinaga: have
    Sylectra Darwin: you don't remember?
    stevenaia Michinaga: no
    Calvino Rabeni: A good story I feel sure
    Sylectra Darwin: smiles
    Sylectra Darwin: still living it.
    Sylectra Darwin: So are you native american, Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: I am not :)
    Calvino Rabeni: But I do my best to understand respect
    stevenaia Michinaga: can you tell me a bit about the talking stick's use, Cal?
    Sylectra Darwin: It sounds as though you succeed.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes it is used in groups I go to , that are communities who know each other, and sometimes they meet and sit in circle for a certain type of discussion
    Calvino Rabeni: The talking stick is a ritual object that empowers the person holding it to have the attention of the group, and the responsibility to use it well to speak the truth
    Calvino Rabeni: there is no cross-talk and the quality of attention is good, for both the listeners and the speaker
    Calvino Rabeni: when a speaker is done with their statement they can offer it to another or place it into the center of the circle
    Calvino Rabeni: it might sit there for a while by itself
    stevenaia Michinaga: so it is not a conversation
    stevenaia Michinaga: but a moment for one to spak
    Sylectra Darwin: wonderful
    Calvino Rabeni: no, not like an informal conversation circle
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: it brings some focus and some sincerity to the speaking and makes it to be an offering, sometimes with a feeling of invoking other spirits for aid
    Calvino Rabeni: the background of it I think you would say has some non-chiristian non-scientific basis
    Calvino Rabeni: you were speaking of the vision quest earlier ?
    Calvino Rabeni: the talking stick focuses the mind of the group into a unity
    Calvino Rabeni: creating a kind of "we" space, but in the witness of higher powers
    Calvino Rabeni: you have to be there and get used to it, for this to make sense, I suppose
    Sylectra Darwin: yes I was
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, it sounds like a very interesting experience, athoratative on one hand but only momentarily
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Aaliyah
    Aaliyah Zeritonga: hi there
    stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before?
    Aaliyah Zeritonga: never
    stevenaia Michinaga: please join us
    Aaliyah Zeritonga: what exactly goes on here
    Sylectra Darwin: brb
    Aaliyah Zeritonga: i'm actually looking for a place on hinduism
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye sylectra
    stevenaia Michinaga: we are non-religious but welcome all views
    stevenaia Michinaga: ops
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb sylectra
    Aaliyah Zeritonga: alright, actually i'm just curious if anyone knows about hinduism as i do not and i was jsut curious
    Sylectra Darwin: ty
    stevenaia Michinaga: oh, we record our chats and post them to the goup's wiki, it is ok if we include you?
    Aaliyah Zeritonga: sure
    stevenaia Michinaga: we have been doing this for almost 2 years
    Sylectra Darwin: long time now!
    stevenaia Michinaga: you can find more information here
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: in fact one of our group Joined us from her travels in India the other night
    Sylectra Darwin loves india
    stevenaia Michinaga: there are a number of buddist in the group, but I don;t know much about that either, learned more about it here than anywhere else
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Aaliyah
    Sylectra Darwin: I've met some buddhists in quaker meetings
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you live in an area with a quaker community then?
    Sylectra Darwin: There are quaker communities everywhere, it seems :)
    Sylectra Darwin: I live in NJ, and yes, there are many such meetings up here.
    Sylectra Darwin: Pennsylvania appears to have many. This is all new to me as I have only started hanging out with the Quakers a couple months.
    Sylectra Darwin: I was once Methodist but have sort of visited any church that interests me since then.
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, there are many quaker schools and "meeting houses" here
    Calvino Rabeni: I've known them a long time, but am not one of them
    Sylectra Darwin: My stepmom was one for 15 years or so and she quietly recommended that I check them out, when I complained of the shallowness and huge budgets of many churches.
    Sylectra Darwin: of course I ignored her for another 10 years.
    Sylectra Darwin: LOL
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think my most interesting experiendce was watching my son at jewish day school play against the quakers, it just seems unusually noncompetitive
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Lucinda
    stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before
    Calvino Rabeni: Lucinda is my guest :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: welcome
    Lucinda Lavender: thank you for letting me visit.
    stevenaia Michinaga: is she aware we record our conversatiosn, CAl
    Sylectra Darwin: Hi Lucinda :)
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi
    Calvino Rabeni: I think - you know the chat is recorded, lucinda?
    stevenaia Michinaga: is it ok to include you in our logs?
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: thank you
    Lucinda Lavender: you are welcom
    Calvino Rabeni: We were talking about quakers, talking stick, groups that meet in circles
    Lucinda Lavender: oh! this is a famiar topic for me I am happy to listen.
    stevenaia Michinaga: our conversations move from topic to topic as anyone chooses, Sylectra was saying it reminded her of her recent experiences with Quaker meetings
    Sylectra Darwin: The circle is such a nice theme, isn't it?
    stevenaia Michinaga: the "talking stick" is another approach to groups
    stevenaia Michinaga: I love the approach of talking only when you have something to say
    Calvino Rabeni: It is one of those things that very slowly grows "on" one, not through the analytic mind
    Lucinda Lavender: I am in a dream circle where we use a stone.We listen to dreams.
    Sylectra Darwin: Very nice!
    Calvino Rabeni: these things have a life of their own
    Sylectra Darwin: Are there rules about how to respond when someone shares a dream?
    Calvino Rabeni: I heard a little of it - quite intriguing
    Lucinda Lavender: yes, wenever talk across the circle and try not to talk to each other...we try to listen as deeply as we can to the wisdom of the dream
    Calvino Rabeni: wonderful
    stevenaia Michinaga: one in our group hosts a Dream Workshop on a regular basis
    Lucinda Lavender: Nice..
    Lucinda Lavender: Is the focus psychlogical?
    Calvino Rabeni: The dream itself is like a Being to be regarded as intelligent
    stevenaia Michinaga: the leader is a physician and a psychoanalyst
    stevenaia Michinaga: here is a link about it http://www.kira.org/index.php?option...106&Itemid=136
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I meant, your type of group, Lucinda
    Calvino Rabeni: The workshop here is a mix of different things, I think you'd say
    Lucinda Lavender: Ah. right Calvino...it is connected to the universe through some form of intellience I think
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes. Creating a kind of altered space is important for this
    Sylectra Darwin: I am really digging the group dynamic when everyone follows an agreed-upon format for a more positive outcome.
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: a framework is a nice guide, I was thinking of what a rose arbor does for the rose
    Sylectra Darwin: Steven's working up a sweat over there, typing.
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Sylectra Darwin: lovely
    Sylectra Darwin: Do we have some kind of translator running?
    stevenaia Michinaga: no, why?
    Sylectra Darwin: I am occasionally seeing stuff added to the chat lines.
    Sylectra Darwin: Like your smiley - an empty parens got added to it.
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps you forgot how badly I type?
    Sylectra Darwin: I would think that except Cal also had that on his smiley.
    Calvino Rabeni: one colon one paren :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I need to leave, nice meeting you Lucinda, please come again

    stevenaia Michinaga: good to see you here agoin Sylectra

    stevenaia Michinaga: and always nice to see you Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Likewise steve, take care :)
    Lucinda Lavender: nice to meet you all...I love how this works...
    stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to enjoy yourselves
    Calvino Rabeni: He flies out through the roof in a stylish way
    Lucinda Lavender: gee, is it very challenging?
    stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to enjoy yourselves
    Calvino Rabeni: He flies out through the roof in a stylish way
    Calvino Rabeni: Sylectra, do you know "onogokko"?
    Sylectra Darwin: yes!
    Sylectra Darwin: It's a fun game.
    Calvino Rabeni: wearing one?
    Calvino Rabeni: Lucinda, would you like to play an easy game?
    Sylectra Darwin: not at the moment
    Sylectra Darwin: but I do have one.
    Lucinda Lavender: gee, is it very challenging?
    Calvino Rabeni: :) not very
    Sylectra Darwin: not at all, just kind of silly :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you know how to "Wear" an object in SL?
    Calvino Rabeni: you click it in inventory - Wear
    Calvino Rabeni: with the circle menu
    Calvino Rabeni: open Inventory
    Calvino Rabeni: button on lower right of screen
    Calvino Rabeni: If you don't see it there, type ONIGO in the search line
    Calvino Rabeni: good OK
    Calvino Rabeni: There's not any strategy to this game so it is very easy
    Calvino Rabeni: ready?
    Sylectra Darwin: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: onkgokko
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: stop
    Sylectra Darwin: we're lagged pretty badly...might not work tonight
    Sylectra Darwin: Well guys, I need to head off to bed just in case my employer asks me to come in despite the snow.
    Sylectra Darwin: It was great to meet you!
    Sylectra Darwin: yes, basically if you are up and moving, it makes you run in circles.
    Sylectra Darwin: Then when stop is spoken, the effect stops.
    Sylectra Darwin: yeah
    Sylectra Darwin: IT's quite silly when it works...no worries though.
    Sylectra Darwin: Well you guys have a most excellent night :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to enjoy yourselves
    Calvino Rabeni: He flies out through the roof in a stylish way
    Calvino Rabeni: Sylectra, do you know "onogokko"?
    Sylectra Darwin: yes!
    Sylectra Darwin: It's a fun game.
    Calvino Rabeni: wearing one?
    Calvino Rabeni: Lucinda, would you like to play an easy game?
    Sylectra Darwin: not at the moment
    Sylectra Darwin: but I do have one.
    Lucinda Lavender: gee, is it very challenging?
    Calvino Rabeni: :) not very
    Sylectra Darwin: not at all, just kind of silly :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you know how to "Wear" an object in SL?
    Calvino Rabeni: you click it in inventory - Wear
    Calvino Rabeni: with the circle menu
    Calvino Rabeni: open Inventory
    Calvino Rabeni: button on lower right of screen
    Calvino Rabeni: If you don't see it there, type ONIGO in the search line
    Calvino Rabeni: good OK
    Calvino Rabeni: There's not any strategy to this game so it is very easy
    Calvino Rabeni: ready?
    Sylectra Darwin: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: onkgokko
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: stop
    Sylectra Darwin: we're lagged pretty badly...might not work tonight
    Sylectra Darwin: Well guys, I need to head off to bed just in case my employer asks me to come in despite the snow.
    Sylectra Darwin: It was great to meet you!
    Sylectra Darwin: yes, basically if you are up and moving, it makes you run in circles.
    Sylectra Darwin: Then when stop is spoken, the effect stops.
    Sylectra Darwin: yeah
    Sylectra Darwin: IT's quite silly when it works...no worries though.
    Sylectra Darwin: Well you guys have a most excellent night :)
    Sylectra Darwin: okies, until then -
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, take care
    Lucinda Lavender: bye
    Lucinda Lavender: sure


    2010.02.11 01:00 - Acceptance and Blame

    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Calvino, Gaya and myself. Since the three of us are members of the group 'Ways of Knowing' is not surprising that most of the discussion was centred around the Lojong teachings.

        Calvino Rabeni: Good (morning?) Zen
        Zen Arado: Oh Hi Cal
        Zen Arado: I was checking my Emails ;)
        Zen Arado: how are you?
        Calvino Rabeni: I'm well. And you?
        Zen Arado: I have a cold
        Zen Arado: so a bit miserable with it
        Zen Arado: but it is getting better from yestrday
        Zen Arado: how are you doing with th Lojong teachings?
        Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, I think I was talking to a friend about them earlier today - can't quite remember the gist of it however. I've been enjoying them.
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I was talking to a friend who came to the earlier PaB meeting.
        Zen Arado: I spent a lot of time on them last summer
        Zen Arado: I have 3 books on them
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, you probably have Pema Chodron
        Zen Arado: I really like the practicality of the teaching
        Calvino Rabeni: It's a no-nonsense teaching
        Calvino Rabeni: very practical
        Zen Arado: yes and Chogyam Trungpa (her teacher)
        Zen Arado: and Ken Mc Leods book too
        Zen Arado: I think I need something to shift my habit patterns
        Calvino Rabeni: Why is that?
        Zen Arado: even when you see they are not good you keep doing them
        Calvino Rabeni: Have you tried doing them "better"?

    Gaya arrives: Discussion of the practicality/usefulness of the teachings.

    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Gaya !
        Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Calvino and Zen :)
        Zen Arado: Hi Gaya
        Calvino Rabeni: It's been a while
        Zen Arado: we were discussing the usefulness of the Lojong teachings Gaya
        Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sure I was here recently ... :) ah! *listens*
        Zen Arado: I am slowing my study of these type of teachings right down
        Zen Arado: maybe just one per week
        Zen Arado: and see how it fits into my life
        Zen Arado: I started doing that with koans lately and seem to see more in them
        Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
        Zen Arado: I think the Lojong are koans in a way too
        Gaya Ethaniel: So ... what do you see in the aphorisms in that way?
        Zen Arado: how to apply them in my life mainly
        Zen Arado: like the one on 'Driving all blames into one'
        Zen Arado: I , like many others, look for someone to blame for my problems a lot of the time
        Gaya Ethaniel: Almost most of the time, it's all about us I think :P
        Calvino Rabeni: Or pertaining to habits, for example, what is applicable?
        Zen Arado: yes - you see how you can change
        Gaya Ethaniel urges you to add reports before the Sunday meeting ^^;;;
        Calvino Rabeni: How do you add reports?
        Zen Arado: rether than just gaining an intellectual nderstanding that only satisfies curiosity
        Gaya Ethaniel: We can talk about that after, I will show you :)
        Zen Arado: I don't know either
        Gaya Ethaniel: ok
        Gaya Ethaniel: I've been pondering on that one too this week [more than one per week is too much for me] ... starting with 'could it be something amiss with me?', still a long way to go, certainly more than a week :)
        Zen Arado: I found I missed some good points until I read the log again afterwards
        Zen Arado: so many ppl talking at the same time

    The need to ground teachings in personal experience.

    Zen Arado: maybe the points could be backed up with personal experience of trying to apply them?
        Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, the discussion was flowing quite fast for me too so I'm encouraging people to add reports and read others in advance :)
        Gaya Ethaniel: So that discussions can be grounded on experiences from reports as before when Stim was around.
        Zen Arado: yes - it is so easy to just gain intellectual comprehension I think
        Calvino Rabeni: A big part of the work is emotional
        Zen Arado: do you have a philosophy background Gaya?
        Gaya Ethaniel: No, my brain is very lazy ... ^^;;;
        Gaya Ethaniel: And also physical?
        Zen Arado: doesn't seem so to me:)
        Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks :)

    Unconditional acceptance - what is that?

    Calvino Rabeni: Radical acceptance, for instance
        Calvino Rabeni: "When practicing unconditional acceptance, start with yourself" "Exclude nothing from your acceptance practice: train with a whole heart"
        Gaya Ethaniel: I prefer 'include' instead of accept ...
        Zen Arado: yes acceptance isn't so easy
        Calvino Rabeni: In that sense, the "Big Yes" needs to be able to encompass all "No's"
        Zen Arado: and it includes doing something to change the situation I think
        Zen Arado: the 'unconditional' bit is important too
        Gaya Ethaniel: Say more about 'change the situation' bit Zen?
        Zen Arado: if you only half accept you are still resisting
        Calvino Rabeni: Full compassion for yourself
        Zen Arado: well... if you aren't open to changing things it is resignation instead of acceptance I think
        Zen Arado: kind of thinking that a situation is hopeless?
        Gaya Ethaniel: Do you mean 'open to change' in general?
        Calvino Rabeni: Unconditional means unconditional.
        Gaya Ethaniel: lol yeah, I guess so.
        Calvino Rabeni: So regardless of whether you can change it, or even want to
        Zen Arado: ah but the acceptance part has to be fully accepting
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Gaya Ethaniel: But whether something can change or not isn't always up to us ... so perhaps this also have to be accepted.
        Zen Arado: yes - more about being open to the possibility
        Calvino Rabeni: The proverb "don't depend on how the rest of the world is" also applies to the parts of oneself that are not one-pointed
        Calvino Rabeni: It is like "faith" in a way
        Zen Arado: 'one-pointed'?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, unified. The parts of self that seem "other" are like the world
        Calvino Rabeni: People find a way to have faith, regardless of what happens in the world
        Zen Arado: my brain isn't working too well this morning :)
        Calvino Rabeni: and regardless of what happens with the "unruly" parts of self

    About taking the blame.

    Calvino Rabeni: About "blame", for instance.
        Zen Arado: and I am realizing how little I grasped some of these teachings
        Calvino Rabeni: On the normal level is is a very primitive concept
        Zen Arado: Taking the blame for things yourself simplifies, clarifies issues, Chogyam Trungpa says.
        Calvino Rabeni: But the suggestion of the lojong idea is that it can be transformed
        Calvino Rabeni: This is a almost the opposite of radical acceptance - it is radical responsibility
        Calvino Rabeni: or accountability
        Zen Arado: so do you think we should just take the the blame even if we are not really to blame?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, why not
        Gaya Ethaniel: Well, let's talk about what 'blame' means and is for?
        Calvino Rabeni: RIght gaya
        Calvino Rabeni: It means very little, in a sense
        Zen Arado: blame is assigning responsibility for failure?
        Calvino Rabeni: It means "who is responsible", and the answer is "me"
        Calvino Rabeni: No, nothing to do with failure, really
        Calvino Rabeni: It says, essentially, take radical responsibility for whatever happens
        Zen Arado: well something that has gone wrong
        Gaya Ethaniel: I think in 'failures', seeds for 'success/failures' are planted ...
        Calvino Rabeni: then there is no blame
        Calvino Rabeni: A failure is only a collection of white and black seeds
        Zen Arado: Many successful entrepreneurs recount how much they learned from their early failures.
        Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
        Calvino Rabeni: In which you are looking at the black ones :)
        Gaya Ethaniel: :)
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: Funny how we look for someone to blame when things go wrong. As if pinning the blame onto someone actually changes anything. At least it gives us a sense of relief by taking the load of responsibility off us.
        Calvino Rabeni: Radical responsibility and radical acceptance are two complementary opposites
        Calvino Rabeni: That's not universal, it's an emotional habit that some people have a lot of and some ahve very little of
        Gaya Ethaniel: I think it has something to do with how we are when things are going 'well'.
        Calvino Rabeni: Blaming is in large part a social convention
        Calvino Rabeni: And the style of doing so is a family affair
        Zen Arado: yes
        Gaya Ethaniel: We forget things change ... can't go well all the time ^^;;;
        Zen Arado: yes a kind of reaction to impermanence when you think of it
        Calvino Rabeni: A state of non-objectivity - when things go well people ignore it, when it goes "wrong" they notice and blame
        Gaya Ethaniel: ^^;;;
        Calvino Rabeni: Why not praise and feel gratitude?
        Calvino Rabeni: Lojong counsels gratitude always
        Zen Arado: yes - and enjoy and praise others for their successes
        Gaya Ethaniel: :)
        Calvino Rabeni: And oneself :)
        Zen Arado: Taking all the blame yourself seems very difficult - maybe it is best to adopt a practice of not assigning any blame at all.
        Gaya Ethaniel: :)
        Calvino Rabeni: No, take it, but have no fear
        Calvino Rabeni: It is tonglen
        Zen Arado: just get out of the habit of looking for someone/ something to blame
        Gaya Ethaniel: But it's always good to learn from own mistakes, if situations worsened due to them.
        Calvino Rabeni: pick up the white seeds - sort them out
        Gaya Ethaniel: Even that is difficult to practice I think Zen :) I often have to stop myself a little into such a process at times.
        Zen Arado: yes I know
        Zen Arado: it is so endemic to our society too
        Gaya Ethaniel nods.
        Zen Arado: or am I generealizing too much?
        Calvino Rabeni: Frankly, Zen, I think so :)
        Gaya Ethaniel: Well we are so encourage to be better and compete ...
        Calvino Rabeni: You are right it is common, but I certainly wouldn't say it predominates over other emotional patterns
        Zen Arado: but things do need to be changed sometimes so you have to loo for who is responsible?
        Zen Arado: look
        Calvino Rabeni: We are always all responsible
        Calvino Rabeni: 100%
        Gaya Ethaniel shrugs ... one can't make people to change, only oneself ...
        Zen Arado: personal example
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and one may more easily take action oneself than compel others

    My personal example.   

    Zen Arado: I was at a hotel yesterdaY with poor disabled access
        Zen Arado: do I just accept that?
        Gaya Ethaniel: Did you contact various organisations and complain?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, accept it while you do what is needed about it
        Zen Arado: I told the manager that she should do something about it
        Zen Arado: provide a ramp
        Gaya Ethaniel: I think ... there is a law about that in UK ... if you feel strongly you can make formal complaints to relevant organisations.
        Zen Arado: yes there is
        Zen Arado: but so many just ignore the law
        Gaya Ethaniel: It's not considerate of them ... I agree.
        Zen Arado: disabled organisation can't do much
        Zen Arado: you would have to take a personal lawsuit against them
        Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... I was thinking about organisations that rate hotels, B&B really.
        Gaya Ethaniel: AA, Which etc ...
        Gaya Ethaniel: Then regional/national tourism boards ...
        Zen Arado: hmmmm might work
        Gaya Ethaniel: Bad reviews affect businesses so ...
        Zen Arado: the 'disabled accessibility ' bit is just left off the brochures
        Gaya Ethaniel: But I do think things have improved a lot in UK, on roads and ramps in general. Didn't see much of them even in 90s.

    Gaya provides us with information about posting reports on WOK group and logs off.

    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sorry to disturb but I need to log off soon. I created an account and report page for you Zen. You should have password in your email.
        Gaya Ethaniel: And here is how to - http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/Wiki_Tutorial
        Zen Arado: ok thanks Gaya :)
        Gaya Ethaniel: Give it a go, and send me either email or IM so that I can have a look on wiki or we can meet up to walk it through ok?
        Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Calvino :) Enjoy your day Zen :)
        Zen Arado: bye Gaya :)

    Back to health problems and how to cope.

    Zen Arado: what you said was good Cal ' accept it while you do what is needed about it
        Calvino Rabeni: Possibly relevant proverb from lojong: "Always meditate on whatever you resent" :)
        Calvino Rabeni: This doesn't mean acquiesence and resignation, luckily
        Zen Arado: yes - you can get very resentful about lack of disabled access
        Calvino Rabeni: It might mean, clarity and forthrightness
        Zen Arado: or I can anyway :)
        Calvino Rabeni: I can easily imagine :)
        Zen Arado: you get so tired of it
        Calvino Rabeni: Sorry
        Zen Arado: but that is the way it is and at least the situation is improving
        Calvino Rabeni: A friend of mine has terrible health.
        Zen Arado: yes?
        Calvino Rabeni: Years ago, you couldn't talk to him about it because he was resentful
        Calvino Rabeni: He would be angry if you tried to help, and angry if not.
        Calvino Rabeni: Somehow this changed over time
        Zen Arado: I can imagine
        Calvino Rabeni: Something spiritual I would guess
        Zen Arado: you don't know how you will cope until it happens to you though
        Zen Arado: and it takes time to accept
        Calvino Rabeni: his health is still bad, but he doesn't burden with the added emotions he used to suffer with
        Calvino Rabeni: Like aging, but more intense and faster, is how I imagine it
        Zen Arado: yes my meditation practice sure helps me
        Zen Arado: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: the body is breaking down slowly, losing bit by bit
        Zen Arado: happens to us all in the end
        Zen Arado: but I am very healthy otherwise
        Zen Arado: just muscle weakness
        Zen Arado: even to live as long as I have is a bonus I think
        Zen Arado: lots of my friends didn't survive to 60
        Zen Arado: 'unconditional acceptance' is great
        Zen Arado: and ditching all the emotional extras we add to situations
        Calvino Rabeni: I think it goes along with the ability to transform things - to change the suffering things into positive things
        Calvino Rabeni: resentment into gratitude, for example
        Calvino Rabeni: fear into trust
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: and looking for ways to do this in our lives
        Zen Arado: and being able to recount personal examples to others would be more instructive than just understanding the principle
        Calvino Rabeni: It is not so much about putting on a smile and shining light into the dark corners, but about accepting and loving what is, dark as well as light
        Calvino Rabeni: I agree, that is useful
        Zen Arado: yes Cal

    Reminded about my penchant for generalizations and about approaches to writing.

    Calvino Rabeni: In fact, it might be constructive to have a discipline for a while - "no generaliztions" :)
        Zen Arado: ha ha
        Calvino Rabeni: Examples only :)
        Calvino Rabeni: And it would work at least as well for "learning"
        Zen Arado: I have a friend with Aspergers who hates generalizations :)
        Zen Arado: you only learn the teachings by doiing in the long run
        Zen Arado: they are so practice oriented
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it can be done retrospectively - read the proverb, find examples that are already experiences of applying them
        Zen Arado: yes and thinking about this might make us be more alert, make us look for ways to apply the teachings
        Calvino Rabeni: These proverbs are not a system, are not descriptions of a theory, they are practical reminders for a population of people who already practice
        Zen Arado: see opportunities quicker
        Zen Arado: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: BTW, did you get "the book of not-knowing"?
        Zen Arado: not yet - it has to come from the US I think
        Zen Arado: you started it yet?
        Calvino Rabeni: I have it, and have been dipping here and there into it,just sampling
        Calvino Rabeni: so far, favorably impressed
        Zen Arado: good :)
        Calvino Rabeni: It has a sense of depth, but also of immediacy and "personal" -ness at the same time
        Zen Arado: I was talking to guy at a meditation meteeting last week who had done martial arts like you
        Zen Arado: ju jitsu I think
        Calvino Rabeni: If you could imagine something with the weight of sutras, but with a personal, casual style at once
        Zen Arado: yes good
        Calvino Rabeni: Hard to combine those two things, but it manages
        Calvino Rabeni: I'm also glad, it has benefited from consistent editing, which must have been a lot of work
        Zen Arado: sounds good
        Zen Arado: I have been trying to write about the Lojong teaching
        Zen Arado: trying to be more active about them
        Calvino Rabeni: I remember that. What is your writing approach?
        Zen Arado: sometimes I just do 'freewriting'
        Zen Arado: and then edit
        Calvino Rabeni: I think it would be excellent if we had a commentary on each item by each member of our group
        Zen Arado: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: even if it were somewhat like a journal - just like - this is a glimpse into it I have at this time
        Zen Arado: it takes work but worth it
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: doesn't have to be too academic
        Zen Arado: I better go Cal
        Zen Arado: nice talking to you as always :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Likewise Zen, thanks and good to see you. Take care, be well :)
        Zen Arado: ok bye :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Bye then.


    2010.02.11 07:00 - How can we experience a peaceful world?

    The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

    It is a bright winter's morning for me in real life. In the Play as Being pavilion, it is still dark though winter has passed. Lawrence and Archmage were there waiting on the hour, and a deep discussion is waiting unseen in the wings...

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi, Storm.
    Storm Nordwind: Hello Lawrence
    Archmage Atlantis: hello Storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Arch
    Lawrence Vyceratops: brown snake?
    Archmage Atlantis: Iwill ask the animas to depart
    Storm Nordwind: They are your familiars Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: yes
    Archmage Atlantis: they know what I know
    Storm Nordwind: And do they not know what you do not know Arch? :)
    Archmage Atlantis: yes

    This is the first time I have spoken with Lawrence, so I ask the usual kinds of question.

    Storm Nordwind: Lawrence, please excuse my asking, but have you been to meetings in this Play as Being pavilion before?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Once.
    Storm Nordwind: Ah... good. Then I don't need to ask your permission again to publish your presence or anything you say! :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: No, it's fine. :)
    Archmage Atlantis: He is Law
    Storm Nordwind: Great thank you
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Everyone says that. haha
    Storm Nordwind: Better perhaps than saying Vice? ;)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, in RL, also.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm, actually, new to SL.
    Storm Nordwind: I see that from your birthday...
    Archmage Atlantis: vyceratops was a great dinosaur
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Haha
    Storm Nordwind: but sometimes birthdays can be deceptive :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Oncce thy ruled the earth with their laws
    Storm Nordwind: I know very little about dinosaurs.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yeah, I don't know about the vyceratops...

    I begin a conversation with Lawrence. What attracted him to PaB a second time?

    Storm Nordwind: So Lawrence - you came once and still you came back! ;) There must have been something that interested you (?)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I enjoy talking to people who seem concerned with the state of things - human problems and such.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Not so concerned with ipods and touchscreens...
    Storm Nordwind: wonderful :)
    Archmage Atlantis: because , that and maybe....they are all L
    Storm Nordwind: Some of us use these things as tools, but I for one have no obsession with them
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Right, obsessed. Of course, tools are not something bad.
    Storm Nordwind: They are mostly neutral, but they are sometimes designed not to be! :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes.

    And what are his impressions of PaB itself so far?

    Storm Nordwind: Did you get a chance to look at our Wiki, and find out about the 9 second practice?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I did.
    Storm Nordwind: Good morning Widget
    Widget Whiteberry: good morning
    Archmage Atlantis: used not to be....they can also be used to be
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hello, Widget.
    Storm Nordwind: Did you come away with any particular impressions Lawrence? I'm interested because I may need to contribute to a content update, ensuring things are clear for example

    Good honest answers - and subsequent questions, to which I try and give my own ideas in turn.

    Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm still trying to figure it out... if there is something, aimed to be achieved from the practice.
    Archmage Atlantis: Storm created these trees, the feet on the wisteria ... sometimes he snows us in
    Storm Nordwind: I think one way to look at that is to treat it as an experimental project Lawrence. A kind of "what would happen if". And then to share our findings with the rest of us here. People find some different things and some things in common.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm not sure I follow, completely...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: What do you mean by, "what would happen if"?
    Storm Nordwind: For example, you'll hear or read the idea that during the 9 seconds we can "drop what we have, in order to see what we are". What is left there when do that?
    Storm Nordwind: And when we do do that, what effects does it have? How do we feel? What insights does it give us?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, but I think we do that all the time, perhaps, not realizing it.
    Storm Nordwind: Can you say more about that? :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, like when you go to do a task, you sort of clear your mind, in order to complete the task.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: You concentrate on it.
    Archmage Atlantis: yes
    Lawrence Vyceratops: You are not thinking of a bunch of different things.
    Storm Nordwind: Do you find that clearing a relatively easy thing to do?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: It seems...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I think we can make it complicated. :)
    Archmage Atlantis: for us it was complicated
    Archmage Atlantis: we had rules
    Storm Nordwind: It seems that's a pragmatic approach! :)
    Archmage Atlantis: none made sense

    How about "starting at the end"?

    Storm Nordwind: One of the ideas of Play as Being is "to start at the end". Did you read anything about that?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: No. I tried to read some of the logs.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: What's start at the end?
    Storm Nordwind: The logs are very variable - we talk about the practice but we also talk about lots of (sometimes) related topics! ;)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, one I read seemed to be about the weather, I think?
    Storm Nordwind: haha! hmmm yes ;)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: :) haha
    Storm Nordwind: It's unpredictable - like the weather I guess!
    Storm Nordwind: Starting at the end...
    Archmage Atlantis: The practice is a method of living
    Storm Nordwind: let me suggest an example fo starting at the end...
    Archmage Atlantis: one of many that are valid
    Storm Nordwind: the name of the group is Play as Being and that gives us a simple illustration...
    Storm Nordwind: So people might wonder what is "Being"...
    Storm Nordwind: is it a state of awareness...
    Storm Nordwind: is that what the group means? ...
    Storm Nordwind: or does it refer to some abstract or real all-pervasive entity? ...
    Storm Nordwind: or simply everything that "is"? ...
    Storm Nordwind: so to find this out for ourselves...
    Storm Nordwind: we experiment...
    Storm Nordwind: we not only play at seeing what it's like simply to "be"...
    Storm Nordwind: but we imagine, if there was such a thing, ...
    Storm Nordwind: what it would be like to be Being...
    Storm Nordwind: and we play with that notion, lightly, get a feel for it
    Storm Nordwind: in a similar way that some meditation practices do
    Storm Nordwind: Hard to do of course in just 9 seconds! ;)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I lost the part about the start at the end...
    Storm Nordwind: It's like a short cut...
    Fael Illyar: Hello Everyone :)
    Storm Nordwind: because there are many practices that suggest to such a destination (of being Being) that you may want to take a step by step appraoch. Instead we started by saying "what would it be like if we were already at our destination?"
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hello, Fael
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Fael
    Storm Nordwind: "How would it feel?"
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Oh, yes, I think I see what you are saying...
    Fael Illyar: looks like SL doesn't want to rez me for myself... I'll relog. Brb
    Lawrence Vyceratops: The obvious, right?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: We are already being.

    I draw a passing parallel to certain meditation practices (specifically, tantra, but I don't really want to get into discussing that if it's unfamiliar or irrelevant). We end up talking about Lawrence's view on meditation.

    Storm Nordwind: yes... are you familiar with things like buddhist meditation? I ask because there is a parallel in certain techniques.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I suppose. Everyone has their own interpretations.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Interpretations as to what meditation is.
    Storm Nordwind: I see. Of course. Do you have a working interpretation?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I suppose so. I see a couple different kinds...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I see one interpretation where I presume one is suppose to quieten the mind...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: and one that is more contemplative.
    Storm Nordwind: Interesting. Do you practise either of these?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I think we all do, naturally, perhaps, without realizing it.

    Peaceful mind or quietened mind? And a peaceful world?

    Storm Nordwind: Can I play devil's advocate for a moment then? ;) ...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok.
    Storm Nordwind: and suggest that if we all do a practice that quietens the mind, but without realizing it, wouldn't the wolrd be filled with happy peaceful people?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Why do you say that?
    Archmage Atlantis: geez, i really dislike the phrase "devil's advocate"
    Fael Illyar: Storm, that's assuming everyone would do it all the time :)
    Storm Nordwind: Sure Fael! :)
    Storm Nordwind: But I am playing devil's advocate here :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Why would the world be peaceful?
    Storm Nordwind: Let me turn that round Lawrence. Why does the world appear to be unpeaceful to many people at the moment?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Because we are shouting, and fighting, and killing each other and we can see and feel that.
    Archmage Atlantis: More important...why Should the world be peaceful?
    Fael Illyar doesn't see anyone shouting, fighting or killing someone.
    Storm Nordwind: Do you think that people who feel peaceful within themselves would be motivated to shout, fight, kill etc?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: No, not here.
    Archmage Atlantis: shout yes
    Lawrence Vyceratops: But, how does quieting the mind for a moment make one peaceful?
    Widget Whiteberry: Archmage?
    Archmage Atlantis: fight perhaps
    Lawrence Vyceratops: There has to be some kind of intention.
    Archmage Atlantis: kill no, it is a law
    Storm Nordwind: Ah... perhaps we are talking of slightly different things. I made an assumption - sorry...
    Widget Whiteberry: I see people causing harm to others ....
    Fael Illyar: (and to themselves)
    Widget Whiteberry: that too, Fael
    Storm Nordwind: So the ability to have a peaceful mind is perhaps what I meant. I had wrongly assumed you meant that with "quiet" Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Ah, I'm sure quite a lot of confusion arises from those two understandings.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: But what does it mean, to quieten the mind?
    Storm Nordwind: That was your term... I was hoping you would explain! :))

    There's meditation and meditation!

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I thought the practice was that, for 9 seconds, 90 seconds.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Are we talking about meditation?
    Storm Nordwind: So many different kinds of meditation, or what people call meditation :) ...
    Archmage Atlantis: i have a notecard to share
    Widget Whiteberry nods to AM
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Thank you.

    This is a fascinating conversation but I'd like to hear other people's views as well.

    Storm Nordwind: But for the 9 seconds practice, I would not necessarily use the term quieten the mind. Personally I would say a kind of friendly detachment from identifying with the thoughts that pass through the mind. Perhaps others would like to share their thoughts on that?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: So, a kind of, watch the movements of the mind type of thing?
    Widget Whiteberry: for me that friendly detachment is a time out from whatever emotions I attach to my thoughts
    Widget Whiteberry: a kind of reset
    Archmage Atlantis: Storm is a founder of this place
    Storm Nordwind: Great description Widget! Thank you :)

    Lawrence and I exchange views.

    Lawrence Vyceratops: What happens, as I see it, is like when you ride in a car for a while, and then you come to a stop and you start to feel like you're rolling backwards.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: It's like seeing a bright light and then looking away and seeing spots.
    Storm Nordwind: I don't see it like that Lawrence, not like a zazen or vipissana kind of practice
    Storm Nordwind: I see it as acknowledging that those things (including thoughts are there)...
    Storm Nordwind: and then 'dropping' your attachment and identification with them...
    Storm Nordwind: and seeing what ELSE is there
    Storm Nordwind: What are you behind all that
    Storm Nordwind: what IS there? :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Behind all identification?
    Storm Nordwind: yes
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Are you speaking of time?
    Archmage Atlantis: do those words, from buddist thought, familiar to u Law?
    Storm Nordwind: I wasn't (at the time!;) , but what would you like to say of time?

    Two words that can cause trouble: "beyond" and "behind".

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I'm trying to understand the concept of "going beyond." That always gives me trouble.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Or seeing behind, as I've heard it put here.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Which words, Arch?
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps "beyond" would suggest a journey from where there isn't something to where there is. We are perhaps suggesting that there may be something worthwhile exploring right here and now, but dropping our attention to distractions might help us see the 'elephant in the room' that's already there
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hold on... let me think about that...
    Archmage Atlantis: Ah, the hindi tale of the blind men and the elephant
    Storm Nordwind: no rush... we are here every 6 hours, day in, day out :))
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm not sure what we are exploring...

    Again, I'd like to hear others' views too.

    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps a different voice than mine might be helpful :)
    Fael Illyar: the nature of reality ... or perhaps the mind :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I'm not sure what is meant by "nature" either, at least not in a spiritual aspect. In a scientific aspect, I suppose it would be a recognizable pattern.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: There is much I do not understand about spirituality, but I see that religion and spirituality seem to address very important issues.
    Fael Illyar: PaB is not purely spiritual
    Fael Illyar: nor purely scientific
    Storm Nordwind: but I suggest it is very pragmatic!
    Fael Illyar: Yes, quite pagmaic approach :)
    Fael Illyar: pragmatic
    Fael Illyar: my keyboard is eating my letters again :)
    Storm Nordwind chuckles

    Context could be important.

    Lawrence Vyceratops: I think the biggest problem is context. It seems very important to be on the same ground, defining our terms and such.
    Storm Nordwind: context is always important to understanding, I agree
    Fael Illyar: yes, on this topic, getting the context to mach is ... perhaps the biggest part :)

    Mulling over mulling!

    Lawrence Vyceratops: So, what is meant by letting go of our attachments?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Are we meaning to not mull over the thoughts of them?
    Storm Nordwind: That's my personal phraseology, and it comes from my buddhist background. I'm not speaking for others when I say that
    Lawrence Vyceratops: So, we watch the movement of thought and feeling and perception in the mind as we sit quietly for 9 seconds or 90 seconds?
    Storm Nordwind: You can do, if you choose. Some people do, yes.
    Storm Nordwind: But coming back to PaB (the standard abbreviation for Play as Being here itseems) ...
    Archmage Atlantis: ich bin ein berliner - did i say that grammatically?
    Storm Nordwind: these might be your method to play with the experience of simply Being
    Archmage Atlantis: It means to me the same as
    Archmage Atlantis: We are the world
    Storm Nordwind: and it would follow the meditation of certain of our Zen friends... though I do not do that :)
    Storm Nordwind: If you choose to mull over thoughts, as I think you said, then can you do it whole heartedly and without distraction?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm not sure what you mean...
    Storm Nordwind: If instead, you simply choose to sit and be, can you watch thoughts arise and pass without following them while you sit and experience being?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I can do that.
    Storm Nordwind: Then you are more fortunate than many to be able to do that naturally Lawrence. Blessed indeed. :)
    Archmage Atlantis: I do not see a clouded mind, Storm
    Lawrence Vyceratops: But, I don't see anything special in it.
    Storm Nordwind: No... when something comes very naturally to us (and I can think of many things I can do from birth that are difficult for most people) we don't think they are special
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I do think, however, that maybe some enjoy it, because it does have a sensation.

    If we are peaceful, how can we tell? :)

    Storm Nordwind: However, may I suggest an almost scientific test to see whether you really have the peacefulness of mind when you experience this?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok...
    Widget Whiteberry pays close attention
    Storm Nordwind: I'll just mention two things...
    Archmage Atlantis: k i am also
    Archmage Atlantis: time to go
    Storm Nordwind: Firstly, check your physical body. When you are attuned to that peacefulness, the tension (if you have any) will start to drift from your body. (That's a fairly coarse indication, and not the best). Secondly, are you happy? Really! Because happiness spontaneously emerges from a peaceful mind. Always. If you can therefore always maintain a peaceful mind, you can always maintain a state of true happiness!
    Archmage Atlantis: good luck with this
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Arch
    Fael Illyar: I need to go also. Have fun everyone :)
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Fael
    Widget Whiteberry: is there a third?
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps Widget! ;) But perhaps two are enough for now?
    Widget Whiteberry: yes, a good start

    But how about peace in the world?

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I don't have a problem with that. I am more concerned with others, who are dividing and causing great conflict in the world.
    Storm Nordwind: An understandable and laudable intention Lawrence!
    Lawrence Vyceratops: As, I have divided, also, you see.
    Widget Whiteberry: I will return ..
    Lawrence Vyceratops: It is in the society, because it is in the individual.
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Widget!
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, Widget.
    Storm Nordwind: Yes, I agree it is in the individual. If individuals change, then their societies change.

    Any difference between "I" and "we"? If not, why not?

    Storm Nordwind: What did you mean when you said: " I have divided, also"?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: We divide when we belong to a group, or identify with an image.
    Storm Nordwind: Sure. But you said "I" not "we" I believe?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I, we, not much difference.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: People think we have personal experiences, but only superficially.
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps not to me, but I suspect there's a big difference between "I" and "we" for many people. Are you describing a particular philosophical viewpoint? Or a spiritual one?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I'm not sure... I suppose philosophical/scientific?...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: For instance, you could take ten people from different parts of the world and put them together...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: remove their skulls, and put their brains on a table...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: They are all human brains and all function the same.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Body is the same way...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: So, when you touch fire and I touch fire, we both burn the same, it is not a personal experience.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Similarly, when one loses a loved one and another does also, both experience sorrow, which is not personal, though it seems to be.

    Can we be sure common experience really is common?

    Storm Nordwind: Are you suggesting that our brains tap into a common 'something' that provides the experience?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: What do you mean by "tap into"?
    Storm Nordwind: We experience things inside ourselves, do we not? I can in no way tell whether my experience is the same as yours when something happens to me. I can speculate, but I have no proof. So the only way that we could share something in common would be if there was something we could both access and know we experienced the same. Which is philosophically and scientifically tricky. Empirically it might be fine to say so, but no proof!
    Lawrence Vyceratops: The experience may vary from person to person, and it is true that we can only experience ourselves (you can see and touch a tree, but cannot be a tree), but we are like machines - all built the same.
    Storm Nordwind: Yet how does one person see something and find it attractive and pleasant, and another person find the same thing replusive? The object has no inherent goodness or badness it would seem. How does machine theory account for that?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: That is what I meant by "superficial."
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Superficial differences.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Is there a machine theory?
    Storm Nordwind: It's a popular way of seeing things amongst some people. I don't know its actual name! :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Ah.

    Fire is fire?

    Lawrence Vyceratops: But, yes, it's like fire. Take two matches and strike them. Each have separate flames, but both are the "same" fire.
    Storm Nordwind: If one was a magnesium flare instead, would they still be the same fire?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Provided, the matches are from the same box. ;)
    Storm Nordwind: Ah ok!
    Lawrence Vyceratops: back in 1.5 minutes...
    Storm Nordwind: I will have to leave very soon actually
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok.
    Storm Nordwind: The two fires may have the same qualities (or 'nature' as Fael said earlier), but are you considering them to be the same entity?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: And the distinction is merely in the seperation in time and space?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, obviously, there is a distinction in the mind, between one fire and another.
    Storm Nordwind: So what leads you to drop that separation? And potentially all other separations?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, the fact that the two fires are the same, or that two humans are the same, save for superficial differences.
    Storm Nordwind: So it is, what you might feel is, a rational or logical deduction, rather than a result of some other practice?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Practice?
    Storm Nordwind: I use the term very loosely! Could include anything that does not rely on linear or rational thought.

    Does the same stimulus mean the same experience?

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, when I touch fire, it seems to be a very personal experience; that is, to say, that it burns me and I feel that very intimately. However, when another is burned, surely, they experience the same pain. They respond similarly - they get away from the fire.
    Storm Nordwind: Not necessarily
    Lawrence Vyceratops: But the brain is designed the same.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: As is the body.
    Storm Nordwind: But the experience may be quite different
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Sure, the superficial difference, which is, our likes and dislikes, our past personal experiences, and so on.
    Storm Nordwind: More than that. It can hurt one and not the other. Even the same person in one lifetime. Take for instance the less burn of a chili pepper. I feel no pain with that now, though I did once, as a child. For some, that pain never mellows. For others it is not a burn to run away from even at the start. This is more than like or dislike surely?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, that is a tolerance that is built up to exposure. That would be a difference in experience, and also there are slight differences in each human body, but we all easily identify one another as human beings.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: You would not call one of us a koala bear, unless metaphorically.
    Storm Nordwind: I might call you a sentient being, whatever appearance you had. (Often a variable thing in Second Life!) :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok, so if we are sentient beings, we much have some things in common.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: This identifies us as such.

    So if there is commonality, how about the good stuff too?

    Storm Nordwind: And how about the ability to be thoroughly peaceful and happy? If I can do it, how about everyone else? And why do they choose not to be? Is it simply that education is required?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Perhaps.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: What can we do about that?
    Storm Nordwind: If you know how, please teach people! :)
    Storm Nordwind: And find ways to motivate them to listen :)
    Storm Nordwind: And, of course, put into practice :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, that would be more productive than marking them up with tattoos! haha
    Storm Nordwind missed the tattoo reference :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm a tattooer, by trade.
    Storm Nordwind: Ah I see!

    "Why do people not see things as I see them?"

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Why are people not concerned with crises of the world?
    Storm Nordwind: Why do you think?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I don't know. I talk to people every day and they seem so uninterested.
    Storm Nordwind: Do you think perhaps they only have so much capacity to hurt on other people's behalf? Perhaps their attention is taken up by their own many woes?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: People do tend to be concerned mainly with their own being...
    Storm Nordwind: It is their world!
    Lawrence Vyceratops: There doesn't seem to be much recognition of others, except what they see as themselves.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: And, perhaps, it's that we don't see one another as we see ourselves.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Which, I think, is very similar.
    Storm Nordwind: Most people don't even know how to solve their own problems. They haven't discovered or have not yet been taught. That kind of person (and i suspect they are in the majority) may naturally think "How could I help others when I can't even help myself?"
    Storm Nordwind: It is not that these people are necessarily without compassion. It is that they are simply without the knowledge.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Communication, I think is a big problem. We each have our own concepts and understandings of concepts, it's very difficult to see eye-to-eye, or on the same ground.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: If we could see more eye-to-eye, the knowledge would come more easily.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Too much confusion...

    But with all that claimed commonality, how come?

    Storm Nordwind: But, according to you, it should be easy to see eye-to-eye if the differences are only superficial (?)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: It seems. haha ;)

    We adjourn!
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I have to go...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: ...mark people up! :)
    Storm Nordwind: OK. Delighted to chat with you. Please feel free to drop in another time
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Thank you. I will.
    Storm Nordwind: Wonderful. Bye for now!
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Goodbye.
    Storm Nordwind waves


    2010.02.11 13:00 - just a thursday 1 pm

    The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey liza
    Liza Deischer: hey Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye, the way, where are you from ?
    Liza Deischer: Holland
    Yakuzza Lethecus: germany here
    Liza Deischer: if that is what you mean
    Liza Deischer: yes I know
    Liza Deischer: there are some germans around her
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so are ppl from the netherlands :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am curious what pema feels like :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: japanese/us/netherlandish or just cosmopolitan :D
    Liza Deischer: I have no idea?
    Liza Deischer: I do talk Dutch with him though
    Liza Deischer: and he still speaks it very well
    Liza Deischer: and sometimes we speak about really Dutch things
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, he got a nice dutch accent in his language :)
    Liza Deischer: wich is nice
    Yakuzza Lethecus: his english
    Liza Deischer: yes, very :-)
    Liza Deischer: I heard him talking at a time workshop
    Liza Deischer: he sounded like he just moved out of Holland :-)
    Liza Deischer: but to his generation, somehow they articulate not as well as younger generations
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it's really an advantage that not even all movies are with subtitles right away in the nl
    Liza Deischer: yes, I feal that as an adventage
    Liza Deischer: It is easier to get a grip on a language
    Liza Deischer: hungry?
    Liza Deischer: np
    Liza Deischer: ah, okay
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Liza Deischer: it was just funny
    Liza Deischer: but I think pema has become much of an american
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don't know much about what it means to be american
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually i don't even try to understand what it means to be german :P
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Liza Deischer: maybe that is the best thing to do
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza
    Liza Deischer: hey eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya, Liza :))
    Liza Deischer: but Americans do have a enthousiasm that is hard to imagine with a Dutchman
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and hey cal
    Liza Deischer: hey cal
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Does anyone mind my lowering the fountain?
    Liza Deischer: so I think he fits well in that society :-)
    Liza Deischer: now, that's ok
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I like to have a wide view which encompasses everyone :)
    Liza Deischer: you look......
    Liza Deischer: very elfish, I guess
    Liza Deischer: and beautful made
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Thank you... I do think the person who made this is talented
    Liza Deischer: beatirully
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Calvnio must be in love... there are hearts emanating from him
    Liza Deischer: then he is in love for a longer time
    Bleu Oleander: hi!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu!
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Liza Deischer: hie Bleu
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bleu
    Liza Deischer: somehow that feels like to be in contradition with the bald head and the 'tough guy'
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, yes I'm thinking the juxtopositions are intentional?
    Calvino Rabeni: "Do I contradict myself? ... I contain multitudes" in the words of an american bard
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Liza Deischer: Justopostions?
    Liza Deischer: juxto
    Calvino Rabeni: Not "justification-positions" :)

    Eliza Madrigal: odd angles all working against and yet with




    Calvino Rabeni: More like "just-this-o-positions"
    Liza Deischer: ok thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :) How are you doing?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey wol, anyone made an obervation he would like to share ?
    Liza Deischer: hi Wol
    Bleu Oleander: hi Wol
    Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'm late
    Calvino Rabeni: :) the word juxtapositions means "things set next to one another"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: you'll never be late :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: yeah, yeah, "there is no time" :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: or you just adapted yourself to the maltese culture :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Actually Yakuzza, today I did find myself on a long walk, contemplating 'appreciations' today
    Eliza Madrigal: (strike one today-heh)
    Eliza Madrigal: many todays in one day
    Eliza Madrigal: What I noticed, was that getting quiet one can make out distinctions at finer and finer levels... all of which can open up...
    Wol Euler: hello fael
    Liza Deischer: right
    Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi fael
    Calvino Rabeni: That is good to see, Eliza
    Bleu Oleander: hi Fael
    Eliza Madrigal: and not just in what is seen but felt and heard... like cold, warm, breeze, skin, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fael :)
    Liza Deischer: hi fael
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, Fael, Dazzling :)
    Wol Euler: indeed
    Eliza Madrigal: :))))
    Bleu Oleander: impressive!
    Calvino Rabeni: @@ dizzy @@
    Fael Illyar: You too Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: We look like we're from the same hometown now...
    Wol Euler: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: but I have no fancy tricks... hehe
    Fael Illyar: well, aren't we? :P
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Eliza Madrigal: Indeed
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, anyway, so the walk itself was showing me so many things... like 'what is it like to be ground with someone walking on it?" and "Can I really appreciate something and yet not mind if it leaves?"
    Eliza Madrigal: It was interesting... all rather unintended. :)
    Fael Illyar just returned from the movie theater watching Avatar.
    Eliza Madrigal: OOOooh... you hadn't seen it Fael?
    Fael Illyar: nope :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fael Illyar: best movie ever!
    Bleu Oleander: fun, wasn't it?
    Wol Euler: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm thinking of Eliza's distinctions, with a new emphasis, and a little help from friends
    Fael Illyar: (and yes, this is the first time I say that I think)
    Calvino Rabeni: There are things "in the air" related to trust and to discrimination
    Eliza Madrigal: I noticed the avatarness of body while walking too...
    Eliza Madrigal: and did consider the film... how he reacted when first seeing the skin he'd get to step into...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, thats why the chinese restricted the movie @ cal
    Fael Illyar: the chinese restricted Avatar?
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: by declaring htat it could only be shown in 3d equipped cinemas
    Wol Euler: of which there are roughly seven in China
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah =/
    Eliza Madrigal: What do you mean Cal, "with help from friends"?
    Fael Illyar: mmkay... they clearly don't want it to be seen.
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, friends are a kind of oracle - I listen to the sub text of what they are saying, kind of read between the lines
    Calvino Rabeni: if several of them are talking about a theme, then it is "in the air" and I take it as a message
    Fael Illyar: but the 3d effect was neat :)
    Calvino Rabeni: for something for me to look at
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: crowdsourcing your attention :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hm... yes that is definitely what I noticed today... in between... that space has a kind of charge
    Calvino Rabeni: Like trust and discrimination were themes in peoples' discussions
    Calvino Rabeni: And I realized - same in me too
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, interesting
    Fael Illyar: the current wave in the global mind ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: SO I call that "help from friends" to become aware of a signiificance I might have discounted
    Calvino Rabeni: because it floats around with all the other possibilities and chatter that are in the mind and imagination
    Calvino Rabeni: @fael, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: friends in the inbetween... I suppose that fits well with the film, too....
    Calvino Rabeni: the collective mind
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Fael Illyar: Hello Pegaso :)
    Pegaso Zadark: hello
    Liza Deischer: hello Pegaso
    Calvino Rabeni: and some traditions think there are spirit guides with intelligence - I'm western so I don't say that, but I kind of know what it means

    Wol Euler: welcome to SL, born today :)




    Calvino Rabeni: non-distributed intelligence
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: (I meant "distributed intelligence, not-me & not-you)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey, pegaso/mick
    Liza Deischer: hi mick
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick!
    Wol Euler: hello mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Guys
    Yakuzza Lethecus: right click on a pillow and sit down pegaso
    Mickorod Renard: n gals
    Bleu Oleander: hi Mick
    Eliza Madrigal: It is an interesting idea Calvino
    Mickorod Renard: watzz the topic?
    Eliza Madrigal considers
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Pegaso :)
    Pegaso Zadark: ciao
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, Mick. the intelligent space between, and Avatar :)
    Wol Euler: ((could somebody else give pegaso an introduction, please, I'm just too tired))
    Mickorod Renard: grin,,not sure i understand
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Pegaso Zadark: i don't speak english
    Pegaso Zadark: sorry
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Pegaso, i will im you to save disturbing the chat
    Mickorod Renard: oops
    Mickorod Renard: italian?
    Pegaso Zadark: yes
    Mickorod Renard: french?
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Wol Euler: heh, where's Ara when you need her?
    Eliza Madrigal: Navi?
    Mickorod Renard: anyone speak italian?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, i just posted everything in english for him :)
    Mickorod Renard: ara will arrive soon i am suere
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so that might haven't been the best idea :)
    Liza Deischer: somebody having a translator
    Wol Euler: yes, but they only work in open chat, not IM :(
    Liza Deischer: oh
    Mickorod Renard: ahh
    Eliza Madrigal: He'll figure it out I hope... maybe  the visitor center he was born in...
    Liza Deischer: I guess he draw hi own conlusios
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure :)
    Mickorod Renard: so,,can anyone elaborate on the topic please?
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Eliza Madrigal: Let me give you a note, Mick :) One sec
    Mickorod Renard: cheers
    Wol Euler: sorry, I'm really too tired for this today. I'm going to go home and vegetate a little. Goodnight my dears.
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite Wol
    Bleu Oleander: nite Wol
    Yakuzza Lethecus: night wol
    Eliza Madrigal: Nite Wol (( )) Rest well
    Fael Illyar: hm.. come to think of it, I'm rather tired.
    Fael Illyar: I'll follow Wol :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Nite Fael
    Liza Deischer: bye fael
    Bleu Oleander: bye Fael
    Fael Illyar: Have fun everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal watches Fael swim home....
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nite fael
    Liza Deischer: and there is ara
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara
    Liza Deischer: hi Ara
    Yakuzza Lethecus: you are a bit too late :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    Bleu Oleander: hi Ara
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara :)
    arabella Ella: late?
    Mickorod Renard: hi ara
    Eliza Madrigal: Anyway Mick, not really a topic, just sharing
    Yakuzza Lethecus: we just had an italian visitor :)
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,just reading
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but we couldn't help him since he wasn't able to understand english :)
    arabella Ella: oh
    arabella Ella: he he
    arabella Ella: doesnt anyone here speak italian?
    Eliza Madrigal: We were tongue typing tied
    arabella Ella smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: I have to go soon - to a "playshop" in RL :)
    arabella Ella: sounds cool Calvino
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, what a neat idea... what kind of playshop?
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.meetup.com/Playformation/
    Eliza Madrigal: writers shop?
    Calvino Rabeni: Play As Transformation
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm... is this the first time you've attended?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, of this venur
    Calvino Rabeni: venue I mean
    Calvino Rabeni: But I like the "play" idea as a way to pursue out-of-the-box knowledge
    Eliza Madrigal: When I was little, staying after school, we would play this game where everyone put their head on someone else's stomach... and began a kind of laughing... First, one "ha", then around the circle... then "ha ha"... it was often so fun
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Why not
    Eliza Madrigal: Good for health, so they say

    Eliza Madrigal notices the deafening silence .. hehe




    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni slips out quietly - take care all beings
    Liza Deischer: bye Cl
    arabella Ella: bye Calvino enjoy!
    Mickorod Renard: bye Cal
    arabella Ella: this is a very quiet crowd here tonight!
    Mickorod Renard: I found myself getting a bi out of sorts today,,I needed to take time out and get back into a better frame of mind
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, odd
    Eliza Madrigal: How so, Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: yes, cos I have been ok since halfwy through the retreat
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, maybe beginning to feel a bit of the tension between retreat mode and real life?
    Mickorod Renard: I guess it was a culmination of little things,,just frustrating me
    arabella Ella: so what did you do Mick to get back into a better frame of mind?
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes after peaks we can feel dropped a little :)
    Mickorod Renard: just stop,,reverse myself out from the wrong track I was taking,,nd then start again
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    arabella Ella: I was reading about Tibetan Buddhism today and how pain and suffering are a necessary part of life
    Mickorod Renard: sometimes its that simple
    Eliza Madrigal nods and smiles
    Mickorod Renard: yes maybe,,we need contrast
    arabella Ella: i bought an old book called 'Secret Tibet' written by an Italian (second hand) and it is a gem
    arabella Ella: he traveled to Tiber in late 40s
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, wonderful Ara
    arabella Ella: Tibet
    Liza Deischer: what were yu thinking while reading the book ara?
    arabella Ella: yes it is a translation in English but very well written and so interesting
    arabella Ella: i was thinking there is so much i would like to do, to learn, .... to drop too
    Eliza Madrigal: Tibetans also are very conscious that the body should be engaged in practice... breaks down a sense of ego I guess to do prostrations and such...
    Liza Deischer: it does
    Mickorod Renard: its funny how we spend so much of our lives learning what we think is important,,then the latter part trying to drop it all
    arabella Ella: yes i guess so but the author goes back to the origin of Buddhism and explains a lot of stuff in a clear manner
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: guess it is a bit of why 'suffering' are seen as necessary too
    Eliza Madrigal nods@ Mick :)))
    arabella Ella: the book also brings to mind parallels amongst some major world religions
    Mickorod Renard: yes, i can imagine thats interesting
    Liza Deischer: and how did you feel about the suffering part?
    Eliza Madrigal has definitely gone through a long season of accumulating, and is now shedding
    arabella Ella: I think suffering is a necessary part of life
    Liza Deischer: can you say more Ara?
    arabella Ella: it is how we approach suffering and pain that matters most
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Mickorod Renard: is much of the suffering , suffering what we may loose of our material things?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes we can attach suffering onto places it doesn't need to be... expectations, comparisons, wrong measurements
    arabella Ella: it could be physical suffering too Mick
    arabella Ella: illness, old age, etc too
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    arabella Ella: but as the English expression goes, life is what you make it
    Mickorod Renard: physical suffering is perhaps something we could all do to avoid if pos
    arabella Ella: i dont think it is avoidance which is key
    arabella Ella: it is our whole approach to life and to suffering that is important
    Liza Deischer: I don't think so either
    arabella Ella: sometimes it is inevitable
    Eliza Madrigal: A few brilliant and incredibly clear/vibrant friends and teachers are suffering with illness right now... and they seem to make it material wherever they can
    Mickorod Renard: but some physical suffering can also be due to our attachment to material things
    arabella Ella: should we be so attached to material things Mick so as to make them cause us suffering?
    arabella Ella: so sorry to hear about your friends Eliza, very sad
    Mickorod Renard: stress in the western world is often down to wanting to have high income and so forth
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, difficult certainly
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Ara
    arabella Ella: do you know any people in the Western world or elsewhere Mick who are content as they have achieved their goal of a high income? Would that be sufficient?
    arabella Ella: I dont think so ... there is then often greed for more
    arabella Ella: and no time to enjoy the simple pleasures of life
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,this is what I meant
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm... well this is where the appreciation comes in....
    Mickorod Renard: I am guilty of greed and have been more guilty of it in the past
    Eliza Madrigal: one can be satisfied with so much less than we think
    Yakuzza Lethecus sneakes to bed, cya tomorrow
    Eliza Madrigal: Nite Ya :)
    arabella Ella: nite Yaku
    Liza Deischer: nite Yaku
    Mickorod Renard: nite Yaku..gud to c u
    arabella Ella: well Eliza I got to see part of the chat log and seems like you went for a walk today

    arabella Ella: i went for a walk yesterday and it was such a lovely peaceful experience




    arabella Ella: it was lovely to get wet in the drizzle
    Bleu Oleander: see you all
    arabella Ella: bye Bleu
    Liza Deischer: bye Bleu
    Mickorod Renard: bye Blue
    Mickorod Renard: what is so precious is so often free
    Eliza Madrigal: :) That walk was 'worth' a lot more than things I've fretted over not having ... deeply satisfying
    arabella Ella: mine too :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Funny what we sometims shield ourselves from... drops of water...
    arabella Ella: with a few glimpses of amazing rainbows too
    Eliza Madrigal smiles... sounds like Malta is full of rainbows :)
    arabella Ella: well when it rains in winter there is often the sun over part of the island too, hence rainbows
    arabella Ella: (not always though but often enough)
    Mickorod Renard: I am determined to take full advantage of what I have available for free,,especially the countryside , thoughts,,and so forth
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, love that phrasing Mick....
    arabella Ella smiles
    Mickorod Renard: and also I am willing to give for free my love to anyone who would like some
    Eliza Madrigal: we can slow down and appreciate the space between thoughts, too... becomes like a flowing along....
    arabella Ella: i walked alone for just over an hour in the countryside and the peacefulness was amazing as was the great feeling i got as a result
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Liza Deischer: your tellig us a lot of nice things Ara, as Eliza is
    arabella Ella: and to add to that there were lots of ancient burial sites in caves and other prehistoric monuments just lying there and triggering my imagination
    arabella Ella: ty Liza
    Eliza Madrigal: Ara... that is one thing I was greatly inspired by, in talks of the retreat...
    Eliza Madrigal: I have such a fascination with caves...
    arabella Ella: even the smell of the wild thyme was invigorating
    arabella Ella: it grows everywhere this time of the year
    Eliza Madrigal: MMMM
    arabella Ella: and the wild fennel standing high like sentinels
    Mickorod Renard: rosemary and lavenda is nice too
    Eliza Madrigal smiles.... I can feel the space in your appreciations...
    arabella Ella: then i came across a wonder ... a lonely wild bitter almond tree in full blossom
    Mickorod Renard: heather on the moors
    Mickorod Renard: wow,,nice
    arabella Ella: i had to touch the soft petals which were wet with rain but such lovely texture
    Eliza Madrigal: MM, sighs
    arabella Ella: and the colours ...
    Mickorod Renard: when we were children,,stuff like that was great
    arabella Ella: the pale pink flowers with crimson in the centre
    arabella Ella: we are still children Mick
    Mickorod Renard: I am becoming a child again
    arabella Ella: (at least i am)
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: "yes we are" says the fairy
    arabella Ella smiles to the fairy
    Mickorod Renard: I want to do things like feel stickibuds,,and pussy willows
    arabella Ella: (although I see you are more of an angel Eliza)
    Eliza Madrigal thinks of the rainbows the sprinklers would make when I ran through them as a child....
    arabella Ella: how lovely
    Mickorod Renard: yeaaaa
    Eliza Madrigal smiles @Ara :) Thank you
    arabella Ella: as i said yesterday (I think) when i stopped on a stone bench to meditate during my walk my attention was caught by sprinklers which looked so lovely which each drop visible as spray in the air ... together with the soft rain
    arabella Ella: the water from the sprinklers literally created dances in the air
    Mickorod Renard: I havea thin aboutwater
    Eliza Madrigal: :))))
    Eliza Madrigal: Water is nurturing for you Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Mickorod Renard: its so special
    arabella Ella: Mick is an Aquarian ... makes sense right?
    Mickorod Renard: I love it more now than anytime in my life
    Eliza Madrigal: water is inspiring.... maybe now you are able to linger with it Mick...
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Mickorod Renard: and more
    Mickorod Renard: I sense water is living,,and the drops are like lovely inteligent creatures
    arabella Ella: like the waves (wild horses) Mick which we could see in the distance during the retreat
    arabella Ella: forever changing patterns
    arabella Ella: and the clouds too
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,water plying as horses
    Eliza Madrigal: life is a wonder
    Mickorod Renard: water playing as clouds
    arabella Ella: an infinite variety of patterns
    Eliza Madrigal: When I began to get older, I would look at the work that went into the gardens and house where I grew up ... and not really understand the value... not connect the myriad surprises around the corners as having been placed there thoughtfully...
    arabella Ella: Eliza will you be joining us for the i ching session on Monday?
    Mickorod Renard: water is sacred to many religions too
    arabella Ella: how lovely Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Ara, I admit I've not done much in the way of reading....
    arabella Ella: yes and symbolic too
    Mickorod Renard: yes nice Eliza
    arabella Ella: well Eliza most of us I guess have not done much and part of the purpose of the meeting is to help us to get going again ... i hope
    Eliza Madrigal: so I'm not sure. I stay on the list in hopes that it might weave together at some point
    arabella Ella nods
    Eliza Madrigal: but lots going on :)
    arabella Ella: yes i understand
    Mickorod Renard: there is no pressure Eliza,,I too have only touched on I ching a lil
    arabella Ella: it would be great if you could make it though as Pila would like it mainly to be for novices
    Mickorod Renard: like me
    arabella Ella: (not sure whether you are a novice too ... well)
    Eliza Madrigal: There is a little teaching Eckhart Tolle gives, where he says "You have never really experienced water"... and he goes on to talk about how our minds are always onto the 'next thing'...
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I definitely know nothing about iching :)
    arabella Ella: ah ... join the rest of us then!
    arabella Ella: i must admit i know very little too
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay, will certainly try. :) Thanks for the encouragement
    arabella Ella: but i am curious to learn more
    arabella Ella: :)

    Mickorod Renard: if nothing else, I want to let the rolling of coins be more important in routine than some of the other things in my life




    Mickorod Renard: it will be like a 9 second break
    Eliza Madrigal: What I generally tend to feel about 'signs', is that they are everywhere... and that it is a comfort to train in seeing them to a certain extent... and then there is also a point at which signs open up... are sheer...
    arabella Ella: yes
    arabella Ella: ? are sheer ?
    Eliza Madrigal: so sometimes I hesitate to pay attention intentionally, because I may romanticize and get a bit stuck....
    Mickorod Renard: yes, i think i can understand that Eliza
    arabella Ella: do you mean it is important to maintain a sort of balance Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, yes sheer... like when you are noticing the loveliness of sensations and it all becomes kind of soft and noticeably transient
    Mickorod Renard: I want to change my ,,rut,,and the i ching may help me there
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, very much so Ara :) And to know ourselves/tendencies
    arabella Ella: yes
    Eliza Madrigal nods... it is definitely interesting....
    arabella Ella: altho i feel signs are very important
    Eliza Madrigal: and Pila is a good teacher
    arabella Ella: yes he certainly is very knowledgeable and very sensitive too
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: Pila was one of my first PaB friends... have always taken a lot of comfort in him :)
    arabella Ella: how lovely
    arabella Ella: I respect Pila very much myself
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,he is a great guy
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    arabella Ella: and he has so much patience with everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Indeed :) I still go back and read his paper about the light winds...
    Liza Deischer: thank you for the lovely evening
    arabella Ella: nite Liza
    Liza Deischer: but I'm going
    Liza Deischer: cu
    arabella Ella: the light winds?
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite Liza
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Liza :)
    Mickorod Renard: take care
    Eliza Madrigal: May I ask how you find signs important Ara?
    arabella Ella: i think some signs are messages ... and it is up to us to take them as such ... or to just not notice
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: I relate to that.. tend to be a real pattern maker...
    arabella Ella: and ... the older i get ... the more i tend to relate to synchronicity ...
    arabella Ella: so many things seem to happen for a purpose
    Eliza Madrigal: I guess lately I'm trying not to 'make' the patterns but rather just notice... so I guess like anything it is 'how' we see?
    Eliza Madrigal: OH, Yes I definitely agree Ara
    arabella Ella: but the purpose is like an opportunity and it is up to us to recognise it
    arabella Ella: sometimes we cannot help making the patters ... our mind helps us to recognise them
    arabella Ella: and some people are better at recognising patterns than others
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, Mick fell off
    Eliza Madrigal: The i ching is very technical...
    arabella Ella: Mick crashed
    arabella Ella: do you really think the i ching is technical?
    Eliza Madrigal: do you find it that way? that it takes a bit to understand, or can it be understood intuitively?
    Eliza Madrigal: well, from outside it seems technical
    arabella Ella: what worries me about it is that our imagination may be a bit too free to interpret it as we wish
    arabella Ella: with little or no constraints
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interesting
    arabella Ella: that is my only concern so far
    arabella Ella: like when reading a horoscope ... we put our meaning into it ... sometimes a bit too much
    Eliza Madrigal nods...
    Eliza Madrigal: When we were talking about Storm's Kuan Yin oracle, what I thought about is that
    Eliza Madrigal: each having been sculpted as a poem there is a sense of space...
    arabella Ella: oh i would love to visit Storm's oracle
    Eliza Madrigal: Want to go now? I can go and teleport you...
    arabella Ella: i was just about to ask you if you had a few minutes to spare :)
    arabella Ella: that would be lovely thanks!
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Sure.. let me find the link
    arabella Ella: ok


    2010.02.11 19:00 -"Dialogue and Discussion Based on a Simple Practice of Awareness" & "Malta Almond Cookies /

    The Guardian for this meeting was Paradise Tennant. The comments are by Calvino, Eos, dsharpe and Widget.

    Paradise Tennant: hiya cal :)
    Paradise Tennant: how are you :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Paradise!
    Calvino Rabeni: Very well, and you?
    Paradise Tennant: sleepy ..still on europe time been waking up at 5 am :) and conking out at 8 :)
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: We could just sleep through the session :)
    Paradise Tennant: you have had some good sessions I have been reading the logs
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: They are all different, that's the engaging thing about this place
    Paradise Tennant: was surprised how nice it was to be with people and not say anything ..
    Paradise Tennant: on the retreat we had a day of silence
    Paradise Tennant: some of us took naps
    Paradise Tennant: very peaceful
    Calvino Rabeni: Naps together?
    Paradise Tennant: yes engaging and different
    Paradise Tennant: yes all in one room curled up like cats
    Calvino Rabeni: It's nice to do that. Can relax a different part of oneself.
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    dsharpe Footman: hi
    Paradise Tennant: hiya dsharpe welcome
    dsharpe Footman: am i interrupting anything?
    Paradise Tennant: this is a discussion group you are welcome to join ..
    Paradise Tennant: I will give you a notecard one sec
    dsharpe Footman: thank you
    Paradise Tennant: how would you describe playasbeing cal ..
    Paradise Tennant: besides being engaging and different :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I would say it is a group interested in dialogue and discussion based on a simple practice of awareness
    dsharpe Footman: how are you
    Paradise Tennant: well and working on my awareness :) nicely put
    Paradise Tennant: if you right click on one of the cushions it will let you sit down :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It is basically dogma-free and people bring many viewpoints here, but do not try to debate or persuade. The emphasis is learning for one self.


    Calvino Rabeni: During these "breaks" we pause and turn awareness to whatever is going on
    Paradise Tennant: the conversations here are recorded and posted on a wiki page
    Paradise Tennant: hiya eos nice to see you!
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Para, Cal, d#
    dsharpe Footman: so why isnt anyone talking
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: there are 90 sec pauses every 15 minutes
    Paradise Tennant: sort of a breather to provide space to focus
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    dsharpe Footman: when does the next discussion start
    Paradise Tennant: now
    dsharpe Footman: what shall we discuss
    Eos Amaterasu: we can discuss whatever we want
    Paradise Tennant: often the topics relate to the nature of appearance .. the way the world presents itself to us
    Eos Amaterasu: in the context of being able to drop it whenever we want
    dsharpe Footman: interesting, it kind of is interesting how we are trying to perceive the world as we sit in a virtual world
    Paradise Tennant: yes very much so
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Paradise Tennant: layer upon layer
    Eos Amaterasu: exactly right, and vice versa as well :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Or, perspectives of and through perspectives
    dsharpe Footman: where is eveyone from
    Paradise Tennant: toronto :)
    Eos Amaterasu: dsharpe, we are about to jump into a 90 second pause
    Calvino Rabeni: Western USA
    dsharpe Footman: im from Canada as well!
    Eos Amaterasu: afterward, we report what happened
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wonders what things go on in the mind of visitors
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: well must seem kind of odd
    Paradise Tennant: we just sit really :)
    Eos Amaterasu: it's a kind of game
    Calvino Rabeni: No jive, no problems to solve, what
    Calvino Rabeni: is it about anyway?
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: exploration into direct experience?
    Eos Amaterasu: & the experience of experience
    Eos Amaterasu: "Play as Being" is a strange attractor
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: such an omnipresent unavoidable thing - yet seems so foreign to people ?
    Eos Amaterasu: invisible?
    Paradise Tennant: find I have started sleeping more .. almost on the premise if rl is a dream .. then I might as well be rested for it :)


    Eos Amaterasu: more thoroughly explore all the realms that you inhabit anyway....
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: That's good as a description of it
    Eos Amaterasu: I think I'm beginning to appreciate more "ways of knowing", some of which I've previously ignored
    Paradise Tennant: say more
    Calvino Rabeni: (what is PlayAsBeing)?
    Calvino Rabeni: sweet
    Eos Amaterasu: such as the more visual, imagistic, story-line telling & listening ways of opening a world and creating it and describing it
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I appreciate that one
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: every thought .. every perception is a creation in a way
    Eos Amaterasu: the experience in Malta helped open that up
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Eos Amaterasu: being arises as any perception whatsoever
    Calvino Rabeni: As is every act
    Eos Amaterasu: Paradise, with more sleep you're probably getting more dreams
    Paradise Tennant: yes hoping
    Eos Amaterasu: I had a dream of that almond cookie
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: Dreams can be very generative
    Paradise Tennant: may 1sts that was their name .. worthy of dreaming about
    Paradise Tennant: and healing I think
    Eos Amaterasu: ?
    Calvino Rabeni: They are a different state of consciousness than waking, but they also reflect the different qualities of the dreamer
    Calvino Rabeni: Basically, they are an expression of the dreamer's intelligence, doing what it knows how to do
    Paradise Tennant: will go to bed thinking of the really great pistachio gelato in taormina .. be fun to taste it again
    Eos Amaterasu: In the dream Tulku Ugyen had just made a YouTube video of the almond cookie, demonstrating its empty nature as well as doing a zoom to macro and zoom to micro, meanwhile cookie is still tasty - very funny, humorous
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: lol what a great dream
    Eos Amaterasu: It prompted my Malta haiku
    Paradise Tennant: have not read your haiku :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Dreams are good reflections of oneself, and also possibly paths to new knowledge
    Calvino Rabeni: Feedback
    Eos Amaterasu: malta almond cookies / first taste still sticks embedded / in no-time fullness
    Paradise Tennant: wow
    Eos Amaterasu: also a comment on the no time discussion :-)
    Paradise Tennant: yes been listening to a no time teaching from dongsar rinpoche
    Paradise Tennant: trying to get it
    Eos Amaterasu: Ah
    Eos Amaterasu: Are you doing the gar?
    Paradise Tennant: well have not yet decided but just do not see how I have 2 hours a day .. I work too many hours to fit that in .. blinking onit
    Calvino Rabeni: I was reading some poems by a person who attends tibetan darkness retreats - written during the retreats - it was somewhat inspiring
    Eos Amaterasu listens
    Paradise Tennant: smiles and listens
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I'd like doing that - but don't want to take the time to spend 49 days in complete darkness
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I can connect with it through imagination to some degree though
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you remember the scare stories about sensory deprivation - that it would make people go crazy :)
    Eos Amaterasu: various traditions have ways to approach and do it
    Paradise Tennant: wonders if there are dancing retreat .. :) retreats where you just dance with the wind .. with music ..with colour .. with space :) that would befun
    Calvino Rabeni: But it doesn't seem to work that way


    Eos Amaterasu: Re sensory deprivation, set and setting make big diff, so to speak
    Eos Amaterasu: Re dancing retreats - Sufi?
    Paradise Tennant: yes ..
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm sure other tradtions. There are music retreats....
    Paradise Tennant: sufi have the same kind of thing but really intense no?
    Eos Amaterasu: It's fairly specific, don't have personal experience.
    Paradise Tennant: 49 days in complete darkness .. trys to imagine what that would be like
    Calvino Rabeni: Relaxing?
    Eos Amaterasu: Boring?
    Eos Amaterasu: Scary?
    Eos Amaterasu: Hallucinatory?
    Paradise Tennant: lol liberating too
    Eos Amaterasu: Black?
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps if it was involuntary
    Eos Amaterasu: White?
    Paradise Tennant: liberating from appearances :)
    Calvino Rabeni: there you go.
    Eos Amaterasu: nothing to see, nothing to do, nothing to hear.....
    Eos Amaterasu: awake!
    Calvino Rabeni: Or at least, see. Lots to feel and sense.
    Calvino Rabeni: It just that people are visually oriented.
    Calvino Rabeni: Take that away, there is still a lot left
    Eos Amaterasu: yes
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: how to relate to what happens, in lit world or darkness world.....
    Eos Amaterasu: is the thing
    Eos Amaterasu: the play
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Eos Amaterasu: the storylines
    Eos Amaterasu: the dreamtime weaving
    Eos Amaterasu: even the taste of the almond cookie :-)
    Widget Whiteberry thinks she may have missed an intriguing hr
    Paradise Tennant: hiya widget :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Oh!
    Calvino Rabeni: You could call it a hallucination, but it would be I think misleading, to describe what happens when the activity in the sense of sight is run by internal rather than external activity
    Widget Whiteberry: hi
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi widg, you were rezzing and de-rezzing
    Widget Whiteberry: I was having a cyber adventure
    Widget Whiteberry: please continue
    Eos Amaterasu: the brain / mind adjusts, or can adjust, quickly
    Eos Amaterasu: but maybe freakouts slow adjustment
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, just through simple activities
    Calvino Rabeni: I was at a "playshop" today, and one thing we did in a group was just walk around with eyes closed and arms held in front
    Paradise Tennant: cool
    Calvino Rabeni: So, active moving, not seeing
    Calvino Rabeni: We also did a great set of "appreciating" exercises
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, the activity really does the perceiving
    Widget Whiteberry: what did you do when you contacted other people?
    Calvino Rabeni: Notice how it felt, maybe say something, move on
    Calvino Rabeni: It would have been quite interesting to start conversations :)
    Widget Whiteberry: was there laughter?
    Widget Whiteberry: murmuring?
    Calvino Rabeni: Because you would not have the preconception of who it was, exactly
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes naturally, some laughter, very relaxed setting
    Paradise Tennant: the appreciating exercises were ....
    Calvino Rabeni: One is, you just walk around the room, and take each thing as an appearance, I mean, an encounter, and say - "I really like this X" or something like that.
    Calvino Rabeni: And then keep going on to the next appreciation of appearance
    Calvino Rabeni: And after awhile, people get into it more and more
    Calvino Rabeni: they find the world is full of wonderful and surprising things
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: and might experience general sense of gratitude
    Widget Whiteberry: I am reminded of Weir Labs, from the .... 80s & 90s I think
    Calvino Rabeni: it is just a "dropping" of the usual problem-mind or utility-mind and a use of the other ways of seeing
    Calvino Rabeni: And we did this with the "object" being another person also :)


    Paradise Tennant: sounds lovely :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea of the meeting was "Play As Transformative Practice" similar to the Play in Play As Being in some ways
    Widget Whiteberry nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Well facilitated, lots of good ideas
    Calvino Rabeni: and applications
    Eos Amaterasu: btw, any of you going to be in San Francisco in April?
    Eos Amaterasu: For the RL retreat?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think so, I can drive there in 16 hours
    Widget Whiteberry: I am consideing it
    Widget Whiteberry: and I'm wondering abut these Play encounters
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, considering it
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Widget?
    Widget Whiteberry: I wonder if we could do some of these same things
    Widget Whiteberry: in a retreat setting
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Widget Whiteberry: Play as ... what ever
    Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
    Calvino Rabeni: Eminently feasible!
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Widget Whiteberry: I dont know how the retreats are designed
    Eos Amaterasu: play as ... anything whatsoever
    Widget Whiteberry: I know the stories from Malta ...
    Widget Whiteberry smiles at Eos
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm all for silence and meditation of course, but :)))
    Widget Whiteberry: 16 hrs?
    Widget Whiteberry: that could be a silent practice too
    Eos Amaterasu: basic pattern is some kind of container / setting, plus longer time period - retreats are now starting to be 5 days
    Eos Amaterasu: plus more "pauses", practicies of seconds or minutes
    Calvino Rabeni: USA is a big country - coming just halfway down the West coast takes that long
    Eos Amaterasu: plus discussions
    Widget Whiteberry nods
    Eos Amaterasu: plus silent day in the middle, maybe more for longer retreats
    Paradise Tennant: likes the silent day
    Eos Amaterasu: different balance of isolated / in-the-world, depending on setting
    Eos Amaterasu: silence can really open things up
    Calvino Rabeni: Some kind of "transformational play" would be delightful, I believe also very "furthering" to whatever it is people want from this endeavor
    Paradise Tennant: quietly excuses herself .. very sleepy still on europe time ti seems .. good night ... all .. thank you .. going to try to dream of almond cookies .:)
    Widget Whiteberry: I like the way it seems to fit with what Eos describes
    Calvino Rabeni: The contrasts often make a difference. Like a wave. The higher the crest, the deeper the trough.
    Calvino Rabeni: Silence being the trough
    Widget Whiteberry: Good night, Paradise
    Eos Amaterasu: must also de-cohere
    Calvino Rabeni: Sweet dreams
    Eos Amaterasu: sweet cookies
    Widget Whiteberry: de-cohere?
    Widget Whiteberry: oops
    Widget Whiteberry: any idea about de-cohere?
    Calvino Rabeni: Widget, you have a cloak of invisibility
    Calvino Rabeni: Now I see
    Widget Whiteberry: for a while, all I saw here was water
    Calvino Rabeni: De-cohere ? I am guessing at this
    Calvino Rabeni: Seems like a metaphor of a physicist
    Widget Whiteberry: to cohere is to hold together?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and to I think, coordinate and function as one.
    Widget Whiteberry: a unity
    Widget Whiteberry: maybe to de-cohere is to break into parts, when no parts were evident
    Calvino Rabeni: Decohere would be to allow lots of different activities, rhythms, etc. to be independent
    Calvino Rabeni: Waking consciousness is pretty coherent in some ways
    Widget Whiteberry nods
    Widget Whiteberry: we are always at the center
    Calvino Rabeni: In dreaming, what you see is no longer tied to what objects are being perceived visually
    Widget Whiteberry: hmm
    Widget Whiteberry: or maybe we foget the meanings we assign
    Calvino Rabeni: If that decoheres in normal consciousness it is regarded as a dysfunction, a hallucination
    Widget Whiteberry nods
    Calvino Rabeni: But in dream state, no such restriction
    Widget Whiteberry: I no longer catch my dreams
    Widget Whiteberry: not in a long time
    Calvino Rabeni: Tried to, but couldn't? Or didn't reach for it?
    Widget Whiteberry: haven't been thinking much about it


    Widget Whiteberry: so I suppose I am not reaching
    Widget Whiteberry: so much of SL is like a dream state
    Widget Whiteberry: maybe I get enough here
    Calvino Rabeni: True? Is it fulfilling in the ways that dreams are?
    Widget Whiteberry: some
    Widget Whiteberry: this is a very creative place for me
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes in part because you have created many structures here
    Widget Whiteberry: social structures, org structures
    Calvino Rabeni: But, the ideal thing would be - does it have a life of its own and surprise you, exceeding the limits of your imagination...
    Widget Whiteberry: well
    Calvino Rabeni: This is the gift of dreaming
    Widget Whiteberry: things I understand now
    Widget Whiteberry: I never imagined 2 yrs ago
    Widget Whiteberry: so perhaps
    Widget Whiteberry: you still carry the talking stick!
    Calvino Rabeni: It's relative to one's current horizon I believe
    Widget Whiteberry: what is relative to one's current horizon?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I like carrying it.
    Calvino Rabeni: The function of dreaming to bring new things to surprise or disturb one
    Calvino Rabeni: It has to come over the edge from the unknown
    Calvino Rabeni: and the edge changes, with learning
    Calvino Rabeni: One's horizon may broaden
    Widget Whiteberry: yes
    Widget Whiteberry: that makes sense
    Widget Whiteberry: this is the cane I carried when I felt hermity
    Calvino Rabeni: So what used to surprise and amaze becomes a commonplace or a taken-for-granted
    Widget Whiteberry: hmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: I've seen it before - but actually don't know if you had it 5 minutes ago
    Widget Whiteberry: yes, I see that
    Widget Whiteberry: 5 min ago I wasn't wearing it
    Calvino Rabeni: Mostly SL doesn't create a "new experience" thrill
    Widget Whiteberry: hmm
    Widget Whiteberry: not a thrill but
    Calvino Rabeni: But occasionally - I enjoyed flying around with a jetpack, carrying the talking stick
    Widget Whiteberry: well, lot's of new experiences
    Calvino Rabeni: It reminded me of a kind of spirit journey
    Widget Whiteberry: learning how things work
    Widget Whiteberry: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be interesting for someone to make a sim for traditional trance journeying
    Widget Whiteberry: 3rd life might have that
    Calvino Rabeni: Although I don't know if it would actually work
    Widget Whiteberry: would have to be more than an enviroment
    Widget Whiteberry: an experience
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, Life 3.0, is that someone's project?
    Widget Whiteberry: yes
    Widget Whiteberry: would you like to see it?
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed
    Widget Whiteberry: I may have a landmark
    Calvino Rabeni: ? whad did digby say ?
    Widget Whiteberry: digby is a well regarded political blogger
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, and I am a hermit :)



    First Taste Still Sticks Embedded / In No-Time Fullness


    2010.02.12 01:00 - Spinoff, or Belief in bad in oneself

    Wol Euler was guardian and commenter for this session, in which I received some welcome and much-needed comfort and encouragement.


    Liza Deischer: hi wol
    Wol Euler: hello liza
    Liza Deischer: you're eh......different
    Wol Euler grins. Not dressed entirely in black, you mean?
    Liza Deischer: something like that
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Liza Deischer: but you're waiting for spring to set in
    Wol Euler: exactly.
    Wol Euler: it's still snowing and below zero here :(
    Liza Deischer: yes, about the same here
    Liza Deischer: not really snowing today, but still cold
    Liza Deischer: and there is still some snow on my window :-)
    Liza Deischer: how are you today?
    Wol Euler: pretty well, thnaks. More cheerful than last time we met
    Wol Euler: and yourself?
    Liza Deischer: that's good to hear
    Liza Deischer: yes, me too
    Wol Euler: retreats should come with a health advisory warning, and aftercare.
    Liza Deischer: ah
    Liza Deischer: you were suffering from some spinoff?
    Wol Euler: I was.
    Wol Euler: and am, but it is lessening
    Liza Deischer: it certainly can have that effect on you
    Wol Euler: part of the severity of the shock was that it was unexpected, and need not have been
    Wol Euler: hello calvino, star
    Liza Deischer: hi star, he cal
    Liza Deischer: what do you mean, need not have been
    Stargate Tone: hello Wol, Liza, Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi all!
    Wol Euler: well, I think I would have been less deeply shocked and dismayed if I'd known that shock and dismay were possible results :)
    Calvino Rabeni: What is that, Wol?
    Wol Euler admires Calvino's "Bruce Willis" look
    Liza Deischer: ah, I understand
    Calvino Rabeni: :) hearts and all
    Wol Euler: well, I went into a bit of a tailspin after the retreat
    Wol Euler: and am slowly figuring out why, and dealing with it
    Wol Euler: it'll be interesting to see what hte others say on the 27th...
    Liza Deischer: yes, it will
    Liza Deischer: I don't think you're the only one
    Stargate Tone: may star be curious, what shall happen then ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Can you explain the Why in a nutshell what happens?
    Wol Euler: Star, ten of us met in Malta for a RL retreat two weeks ago. We each reported immediately after on what happened & what we felt there.
    Stargate Tone: *
    Wol Euler: And there will be a followup session, 2 hrs long, on the 27th where we report on what has happened *since* then
    Stargate Tone: *
    Wol Euler: Calvino, to answer your question briefly: I fell into a nearly bottomless pit of self-loathing and despair.
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Sorry
    Wol Euler: something to do with waking from a state of cognitive dissonance, I think.
    Liza Deischer: yes, you probably opened up something
    Wol Euler grins and nods ruefully
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, it has caused you to dress more colorfully :)
    Wol Euler laughs.
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Wol Euler: the outfit is an excuse to wear this hat, which I love dearly.
    Wol Euler: makes me feel like Audrey Hepburn
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Liza Deischer: :-)


    Stargate Tone: there's often this phrase on the path of opening/enlightment, in which the fear to know more rises...
    Stargate Tone: it truly would be good for one then to remember, that all one has forgottan, one has made own choice to do so
    Wol Euler nods
    Stargate Tone: when strong (old) spirits meet, they always strengthen more the knowledge of each other's spirit....


    Gaya and Bertram had both said (in e-mail) that they knew of others who had had the same experience after a retreat, so I asked the group. 

    Wol Euler: may I ask you more experienced retreatists: did anyhting like this happen to you?
    Liza Deischer: oh yes
    Wol Euler: say more?
    Liza Deischer: yest I'm trying too, but need to remember it
    Liza Deischer: because sometimes you forget about the really rough parts
    Liza Deischer: later on I mean
    Stargate Tone: oh gosh...
    Liza Deischer: but as I remember it
    Liza Deischer: it can go bothways
    Stargate Tone: now star starts to look for her inventory....
    Calvino Rabeni: It is hard to remember the specifics of it, emotionally
    Liza Deischer: but I always needed time to 'recover'
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I can recall that
    Liza Deischer: because things are happening on a level that is 'hard to get'
    Stargate Tone: hm
    Stargate Tone: feels like you was talking now of the 'Forssträm syndroma'....
    Liza Deischer: and probably you shouldn't be trying to do so
    Stargate Tone: somebody wanna know what that is ?
    Liza Deischer: I don't know that syndorma
    Wol Euler: please, google doesn't help
    Stargate Tone: ah sure it does not, as it's named after my friend, who's go that huge strongly; the 'exellent example' of that....
    Wol Euler: aaaah :)
    Stargate Tone: the issue is this;
    Stargate Tone: 'belief in bad in oneself'
    Stargate Tone: such people who sees aura, has teached me to understand that,,,as so many of them has got frightened seing me the first time
    Stargate Tone: and I've been curious that why
    Stargate Tone: as they have seen how I see
    Stargate Tone: and got scared that I 'find' the bad in them....
    Stargate Tone: so...that is syndroma, cuz specially such people, who's got no reason to think so
    Stargate Tone: feels that
    Stargate Tone: like to you Wol; it 'fits' very well
    Stargate Tone: cuz your so beautiful person too


    A nice interweaving of related ideas.

    Liza Deischer: I think there can be another reason
    Liza Deischer: and maybe that refers to your story Star
    Stargate Tone: sure...but this is one
    Liza Deischer: but opening up things, means we start to stare ourselfs right in the face
    Liza Deischer: we try to cover up things during the day
    Wol Euler nods.
    Liza Deischer: but taking time and just sitting down gives us a glimps of what we are struggeling with
    Stargate Tone: normally that's urgent to do/happen
    Calvino Rabeni: The basic thing - the illusion of the self is that it has things under control
    Liza Deischer: and we all have fear in us
    Stargate Tone: that's to be human being...
    Calvino Rabeni: mostly by not seeing
    Wol Euler nods.
    Calvino Rabeni: and to take the lid off shows a great vulnerability
    Liza Deischer: that in the end refers to be afraid of life itself
    Calvino Rabeni: And even positive experiences can open things up
    Stargate Tone: and all them fears we know, we can deal with; those are them probs that we r not aware
    Liza Deischer: yes Cal
    Liza Deischer: as I have esperienced lately :-
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: The fear of not being able to "source" one's own positive experience
    Liza Deischer: I think that too Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps a lot does come from "grace"
    Liza Deischer: gives another perspective
    Calvino Rabeni: but some is self generated
    Calvino Rabeni: And people are not "fair" with their self assessment
    Liza Deischer: true


    Liza Deischer: it also gives room to patterns you're holding on to
    Stargate Tone: well...what star searched from her inventory...found now...
    Liza Deischer: or better: it breaks those paterns down
    Stargate Tone: as there is this Johny who often takes part to the Hikari meeting....
    Stargate Tone: and with him we went through such conversation that I asked if I may 'use'...'quote'....
    Stargate Tone: cuz it was so meaningfull
    Stargate Tone: may I now copy and paste that to you here ?
    Liza Deischer: sure
    Stargate Tone: ok
    Wol Euler: um, no
    Wol Euler: send it to us as a notecard
    Wol Euler: we should not publish it without his permission!
    Stargate Tone: ok; so shall tell a bit backround
    Liza Deischer: true
    Stargate Tone: ah; I asked his permission, but good thing wol
    Stargate Tone: so; he's just a bit backround before you read the note card
    Stargate Tone: as that had been chat (partly joking) that if Johny would need to buy the rat as the pet to get enlightened
    Stargate Tone: as this Johny is enlightened :)***
    Stargate Tone: ok: shall give the note card to you now
    Stargate Tone: it's 'uncleaned'....that's why I thought if to copy and paste the essential


    Another visitor arrives while we read. 

    Wol Euler: hello sitar, have you been here before?
    Sitar Ishelwood: yes, thanks wol, i remember your profile
    Wol Euler: ok, sorry :)
    Sitar Ishelwood: its ok, you're still a good dog
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember Sitar
    Sitar Ishelwood: hi calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello
    Liza Deischer: hi Sitar
    Sitar Ishelwood: hi liza, and good to see you star
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Stargate Tone: good to see you too
    Sitar Ishelwood: is there a topic?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes a positive experience can have an emotional backlash, I recall from the past
    Stargate Tone: might we've been speaking of fear to know more and of human mind's skill to forget
    Wol Euler: yes, specifically the despair that can follow from a good retreat experience
    Calvino Rabeni: And sometimes I found it about making comparisons between myself and others
    Sitar Ishelwood: wow alot of stuff. my question is
    Calvino Rabeni: Comparing their strengths with my weaknesses - rather unfair :)
    Sitar Ishelwood: is the retreat causal?
    Wol Euler: true, calvino.
    Stargate Tone: ah well...that's also the way of thinking...that what one takes to be weakness...


    An interesting thought from Calvino, worth meditating on in a future session. 

    Calvino Rabeni: Being more truly "seen" can be challenging too, even if it appears to be with unconditional positive regard on the side of others
    Sitar Ishelwood: of course
    Calvino Rabeni: Today at a workshop I played with this in a small way, and noticed the tendencies at work
    Wol Euler: seeing others' lifestyles can be revealing too. One lives mostly in a fog of habit and convenience, so many things go unnoticed even while we think we are being observant
    Wol Euler: say more?
    Calvino Rabeni: These situations may go fishing in my unconscious - may catch an eel, probably not a whale
    Liza Deischer: :-) yes
    Sitar Ishelwood: yes, and i believe this is why retreat is important
    Calvino Rabeni: One exercise, is, your partner tells you, everything positive and true and "appreciating the appearance of you"
    Calvino Rabeni: and you listen and take it in
    Calvino Rabeni: simple
    Calvino Rabeni: and the facilitator asked - well how was it to hear all that appreciation
    Calvino Rabeni: Some people found it hard - they said - no that's not how it is :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It connected with their low feelings about self
    Calvino Rabeni: or they resisted the appreciation because it might do that
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Stargate Tone: (fear to be healed)



    Liza Deischer: we missed an important word today
    Wol Euler: all change provokes fear, even good changes :)
    Liza Deischer: and that is compassion
    Calvino Rabeni: I have done a fair amount of "shadow work", and I think because of this, I accept the appreciations
    Calvino Rabeni: and enjoy them, and the facilitator said it indicated a self-esteem
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Sitar Ishelwood: the graciousness and humility of just smiling and saying thanks is so important, and such good practice
    Wol Euler nods.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it was a great workshop to practice that - appreciation and gratitude
    Sitar Ishelwood: and now that i know, that is the skillful action, i can just do it, and the self appreciation follows
    Sitar Ishelwood: from the body in, rather than from the mind out
    Calvino Rabeni: It is different than "positive thinking" or "pep talk" yes
    Stargate Tone: star need to go quickly...but wanna 'leave' these words still,,,as I've often have asked the person to thank her/himself for her/his choices, cuz they make the base to one to be what one is
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Stargate Tone: wishing good time to all
    Wol Euler: thank you star, take care
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Liza Deischer: thanks star
    Stargate Tone: love you all
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Liza Deischer: see you
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Sitar Ishelwood: namaste
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_


    Being taught to modestly turn aside praise.

    Wol Euler: y'know, I think I remember as a child being taught the opposite of that, calvino. I am sure I was taught to say "no, it was nothing special" when complimented
    Liza Deischer: as a lady should do :-)
    Wol Euler: right.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, "don't let it go to your head"
    Sitar Ishelwood: ah, the trouble with being born to unenlightened parents
    Wol Euler giggles
    Calvino Rabeni: and in unenlightened society
    Sitar Ishelwood: good thing we get a chance to parent ourselves now
    Sitar Ishelwood: bingo!


    Calvino is on a roll: a third wonderful sentence starts us on the effect of our parents.

    Wol Euler: we (society) had such fear of individuality then, I think
    Calvino Rabeni: it's never too late to have a happy childhood
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Sitar Ishelwood: good people my folks, but not buddhas
    Wol Euler: Cal, what a marvellous statement.
    Wol Euler: that may be our title :)   // but alas, it was not to be.
    Calvino Rabeni: There was a period of "blaming parents" - luckily passed
    Calvino Rabeni: It used to be a fashion I think :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And there are levels and more of it
    Calvino Rabeni: The "positive shadow" is harder to shake
    Liza Deischer: or the first symptoms of understanding that you get molded i a way
    Sitar Ishelwood: well, there are still some negative patterns that run in our minds, that have been passed down for generations
    Liza Deischer: then takig up responsibility for yourself
    Calvino Rabeni: Because positive shadow does not seem like a suffering and negative emotion
    Sitar Ishelwood: coming back to compassion, what i've found helps alot, is knowing that my parents suffered greatly from the same issues
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is said, you don't really "have yourself" while your parents are alive
    Liza Deischer: true cal, it is the poison of attraction


    Wol Euler smiles at the collection of wisdom in these last lines.
    Calvino Rabeni: Children naturally respect their parents - it is hard for them to "surpass" them
    Wol Euler: and hard to be surpassed too.
    Wol Euler: takes a great spirit to welcome that when it happens
    Wol Euler: phone, brb
    Calvino Rabeni: except around obviously broken things of course
    Calvino Rabeni: But we "imprint" on parents
    Liza Deischer: but when that happens, you're in big trouble
    Calvino Rabeni: and the early learning is all about that imprint
    Calvino Rabeni: it is a deeper learning than study or thinking
    Sitar Ishelwood: and we emulate their behavior in an attempt to fit in and gain love
    Liza Deischer: because you need to be loved as a child for even being able to live
    Sitar Ishelwood: the need for love is very strong
    Sitar Ishelwood: i agree liza
    Calvino Rabeni: not just for that - we emulate because this is the powerful model of what it is to be human
    Sitar Ishelwood: love is the key
    Calvino Rabeni: it is not for gain or for anything
    Calvino Rabeni: it is just because this is the appearance of humanity
    Liza Deischer: actually meaning that cal
    Sitar Ishelwood: does survival count as gain?
    Wol Euler: back
    Calvino Rabeni: they are the form of it - like a god image to a child
    Calvino Rabeni: it is deeper than survival, since a child has an innocent mind driven by love
    Liza Deischer: I guess it depends on the survival :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: and it works on a level that is not problematical
    Calvino Rabeni: at the beginning, before the distresses and illusions start to be created
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe some are fundamental, but lots are learned
    Liza Deischer: or get formed, because I think they are alreadt there
    Liza Deischer: for a part
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: my sister wanted to be a child psychologist, her first internship drove that from her mind
    Liza Deischer: but could be taken with you form previous lives
    Calvino Rabeni: your grandparents and ancestors soul materials are imprinted on you when very young and unaware
    Liza Deischer: that is if you believe that
    Sitar Ishelwood: soul materials?
    Wol Euler: when she saw that in 99.3% of cases it was the parents that needed therapy, not the kid, but she wasn't allowed to say that
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I mean their strengths, weaknesses, character
    Sitar Ishelwood: and that just comes in through the cosmos?
    Calvino Rabeni: A kind of karma perhaps - dunno I'm not buddhist - but it is experiences taken from the lives of the ancestors
    Liza Deischer: that;s very sad wol
    Liza Deischer: that's how it looks like (that is for me)
    Wol Euler: perhaps; she would have been very good at it. But she is happier than she would have been.
    Sitar Ishelwood: yup, my mom works with l.d. kids, and she says its like that all the time


    Addiction and families.

    Calvino Rabeni: The child is scapegoat - and a misguided attempt to be a healer
    Liza Deischer: somtimes you can't fight the system
    Calvino Rabeni: Don't know if europe has the A A 12-step addiction treatment groups?
    Calvino Rabeni: But they are getting wiser too
    Sitar Ishelwood: they are all over the world
    Wol Euler: calvino, i agree with your comment about the presence of our grandparents in our lives, imprinted early on. Certainly true for me
    Liza Deischer: not really
    Calvino Rabeni: And dealing with the teenagers who have addictions
    Liza Deischer: i mean the aa 12 steps
    Wol Euler: AA is in germany, yes, and I think they'd have the same program
    Liza Deischer: I know them, because I've been there
    Calvino Rabeni: the parents can't "fix" them, unless they attend the meetings themselves in a devoted fashion
    Liza Deischer: but it is not as common as in the states
    Calvino Rabeni: and then they will learn their "part" of it
    Wol Euler nods.
    Calvino Rabeni: The common wisdom is, "the parents always relapse first"
    Calvino Rabeni: in terms of falling back into the pattern that leads to addiction
    Sitar Ishelwood: ive never heard that
    Wol Euler: my dears, I must go, work is calling (literally :(
    Calvino Rabeni: The parents experience a healing
    Wol Euler: please continue, this is a fascinating discussion and I hope you will continue it!
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care - be well :)
    Liza Deischer: bye wol
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Sitar Ishelwood: yes, its been fun, thank you
    Liza Deischer: and thanks for sharing
    Wol Euler: I look forward to reading hte rest of hte log
    Wol Euler: thank you for your help and encouragement this morning, I needed it
    Liza Deischer: wel me too, because I'm going too
    Wol Euler: bye for now
    Liza Deischer: bye
    Liza Deischer: see you
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Liza
    Calvino Rabeni: I suppose I'll go now also



    2010.02.12 07:00 - Fault Lines and Illusions

    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

    Zen and I chatted about cold remedies, illusions, belief, and fault-consciousness. :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Like your tag ;-)
    Zen Arado: I am lazy with tags - I ust have the last one that I used
    Zen Arado: how are you?
    Eliza Madrigal: Quite Well, thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: You?
    Zen Arado: I have a cold
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, bummer
    Zen Arado: so a bit tired and headachy
    Zen Arado: but nearly over I think
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, good. When I feel a cold coming on, a few times a day I drink a certain concoction
    Zen Arado: I am finding I lose so much energy when I have a cold now
    Zen Arado: what's that?
    Eliza Madrigal: orange juice + water + emergen-C (usually raspberry)...
    Eliza Madrigal: Also, ginger ale and ginger tea :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ginger is anti-inflammatory
    Zen Arado: might help - at least the placebo effect might
    Eliza Madrigal: so helps the body's natural capabilities to work smoothly
    Zen Arado: tried some hot wkiskey but no effect
    Eliza Madrigal: Usually the best thing is sleep :)
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: let your body fight it
    Eliza Madrigal nods

    From dreams, to fear, to illusions...

    Eliza Madrigal: flu dreams are often quite interesting for some reason, too...
    Zen Arado: you still get colds in Florida?
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe because your body is truly just 'off'
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, of course
    Zen Arado: those kind of dreams can be very bad too!
    Eliza Madrigal: well, if bad they are still interesting...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: I got a kind of panic attack the other night
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh... no fun
    Eliza Madrigal: during sleep?
    Zen Arado: yes and when I woke up at about 3am
    Zen Arado: hard to describe
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes that is a sugar dive... (hah, guess I'm in medical mode this morning)
    Eliza Madrigal: or sometimes one is driving over a flimsy bridge!
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    Zen Arado: I worry I won't be able to get up
    Eliza Madrigal: that sounds frightening
    Zen Arado: makes you feel so helpless
    Zen Arado: that's why I don't want to get flu in case it weakens me
    Eliza Madrigal: worrying about the flu may weaken one too

    Meditation helps with this...

    Zen Arado: meditation helps with this
    Eliza Madrigal: does it?
    Zen Arado: it helps with nightmares too - you know it is only thoughts
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Zen Arado: helps me get over them quicker
    Eliza Madrigal: do you have nightmares often?
    Zen Arado: no - pretty rarely
    Zen Arado: thank fully
    Eliza Madrigal: yes me too.. even the darker dreams don't really seem like nightmares...
    Eliza Madrigal: there isn't 'fear' in them
    Eliza Madrigal: prob. a result of meditation practice... you're right
    Zen Arado: we confront our fears more often than others maybe
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm told there is a point where one doesn't really dream... where dreams and so-called 'waking life'
    Zen Arado: I'm generalizing again :)
    Eliza Madrigal: are kind of open and blended
    Zen Arado: it's all a kind of dream I guess
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and yet it is and sounds silly to say things are just illusions, too
    Zen Arado: are problems illusions?
    Zen Arado: we were talking about this before
    Eliza Madrigal: because well, if all things are illusions, then what are illusions...
    Zen Arado: hmmmmm....
    Eliza Madrigal: and if all things are doorways what are doorways...
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: keeps unfolding
    Zen Arado: assumes some things are 'real'
    Zen Arado: you know this issue in philosophy?
    Eliza Madrigal: the challenge is that we are responsible to work 'with' things
    Eliza Madrigal: go on?
    Zen Arado: realism vs anti -realism
    Eliza Madrigal: (if we are real and working with fantasy/illusion, then there is no connection... also visa versa)
    Zen Arado: some assume there is an objective reality out there
    Zen Arado: others say we create our own reality
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... the first time someone said that to me, I was in a treehouse... I still remember it....
    Eliza Madrigal: I was 16
    Zen Arado: but there is a scale between the two
    Zen Arado: I am somewhere closer to the anti realist view
    Zen Arado: everyone's 'reality' is different
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm closer to a 'both' view... almost always
    Zen Arado: Buddhism tends to anti realism I think
    Eliza Madrigal: I remember when my friend said to me "you create your own reality" I thought, "Wow... yes!"...and... "No"
    Eliza Madrigal: meaning little 'you' can't really create anything... can it?
    Eliza Madrigal: someone described buddhism as mystical atheism just the other day, and I felt the same
    Zen Arado: think of a painting - you reconstruct a landscape out of little daubs of paint
    Zen Arado: I don't like that label 'atheism'
    Eliza Madrigal: or hm... does the space construct it?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I know where he was coming from, because he'd been asked a question framed in terms of 'belief'
    Zen Arado: but your brain creates a 3D landscape that isn't there
    Eliza Madrigal: however it sparked a clarification
    Zen Arado: on a 2D flat surface
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes I see what you are saying
    Eliza Madrigal: dimension
    Eliza Madrigal: the dimension is 'given by' the painter?
    Zen Arado: and we take that for granted because we have been conditioned to do it
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Zen Arado: the painter is conditioned how to create the illusion
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Zen Arado: aerial perspective etc
    Eliza Madrigal: or to be a vehicle for the illusion
    Zen Arado: making hills blue and figures in the foreground larger
    Eliza Madrigal: I dabble in modern art sometimes..functional sculpture. One thing I made is a magnetic 'field of infinite possibilities' board for the kids to stick things too... fortune cookies, poems, etc... events, dreams :)
    Zen Arado: so we do the same when we reconstruct the infromation received by our eyes about what is out there
    Zen Arado: interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes that's completely fascinating... how our mechanics work to interpret, form... get ahold of things

    Noticing general thinking...

    Zen Arado: I am sensitive to how much I prefer generalities lately
    Eliza Madrigal: judgements?
    Eliza Madrigal: like 'this is bad, that is good" ?
    Zen Arado: no- just talking about gthings in general instead of specifics
    Eliza Madrigal: hm
    Eliza Madrigal: I guess I do too... try to cast a wide net
    Zen Arado: how everyone or we do things instead of how I do things
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh
    Zen Arado: it's safer :)
    Eliza Madrigal: well, what goes on generally gives us pointers as to what we're doing... AND visa versa
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: also a way to avoid thinking of our own faults maybe
    Zen Arado: you see?
    Zen Arado: generalising again :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Eliza Madrigal: Most people are all too aware of their faults...
    Zen Arado: hmmm...not so sure of that Eliza
    Zen Arado: we hide them from ourselves and notice them in others
    Zen Arado: project them to others
    Eliza Madrigal: if aware of faults/weaknesses/etc but no real feel of being able to address them, then that seems how to be 'stuck'
    Zen Arado: good way to find your own defects is to notice what you don't like in others I think
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I do agree there...
    Zen Arado: phone sec
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes dealing with someone 'what IS IT that is bothering me here?"
    Zen Arado: wrong number :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: that question usually brings me back to impatience
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm trying to get somewhere... and they aren't going....
    Eliza Madrigal: or aren't going fast enough...
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Zen Arado: yes me too
    Zen Arado: impatience with myself too
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed
    Zen Arado: not getting enough done
    Zen Arado: as if it matters much...
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, why am I fretting over not going faster.... because I feel inadequate to 'make up' for something

    Funny when things come up again so clearly...

    Zen Arado: but maybe we are blind to our worst faults
    Zen Arado: we should ask others...
    Eliza Madrigal: Did you see the chat log about "How do I present?"
    Zen Arado: no?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh... we talked about bindspots a bit...
    Zen Arado: ok I'll check it
    Zen Arado: so many logs.....
    Eliza Madrigal: and about an exercize Storm did which is just that question you asked...
    Eliza Madrigal: what are others seeing?
    Zen Arado: good
    Zen Arado: scary to ask others to tell us our faults ..
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, you don't just ask anyone :)
    Zen Arado: pandora's box :)
    Eliza Madrigal: If I go to my friend who is perfectionistic/micro-managing about her house and kids, and ask her what my faults are, she will probably tell me I'm not perfectionistic/micro-managing enough with my house and kids :)
    Zen Arado: ha ha yes
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Zen Arado: you want YOUR faults not hers!
    Zen Arado: see a danger there
    Eliza Madrigal giggles... I donno... some things I considered weaknesses for a long time, turned out to be strengths....
    Eliza Madrigal: so what do I know? :)
    Zen Arado: maybe should just for get this and do our best with what comes up
    Eliza Madrigal: YES
    Eliza Madrigal: That's just it :)
    Zen Arado: there is a right time for these things
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe... and now I'm off to lunch with my perfectionistic friend. Heh, wish me luck :)
    Zen Arado: a time when we can face them
    Zen Arado: ok don't ask her whatever you do!
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
    Eliza Madrigal: I may have to now...
    Eliza Madrigal: just for fun
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: C you later Zen :)
    Zen Arado: you too
    Zen Arado: bye

    Note that my friend and I did not discuss faults. :) We were joined by two other friends, and discussed Authenticity. :) 



    2010.02.12 13:00 - silence and non presence

    The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cal
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and bleu
    Bleu Oleander: hi Yaku and Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Bleu, Yaku, Cal
    Bleu Oleander: hi Agatha
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: Is this one of those quiet sessions?
    Bleu Oleander: no topic yet?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: appreciation of silence :)



    Calvino Rabeni: Oh no, one of those quiet sessions! :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, you noticed :)
    Calvino Rabeni: No, quite honestly, it takes a long time for me to get set up corectly with my old computer
    Calvino Rabeni: it does everything slowly
    Agatha Macbeth: Where is everybody?
    Agatha Macbeth: Must be the post-Malta backlash
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Bleu Oleander: when is the next trip?
    Calvino Rabeni: I had a topic in mind, and was getting some stuff together
    Yakuzza Lethecus: san francisco
    Calvino Rabeni: Soon isn't it?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: in march,april ?
    Bleu Oleander: are you going?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don't cross the atlantik :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: off, course it's just a catjump for you :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: since you're closer to the westcoast anyway
    Bleu Oleander: right .... btw, did anyone take photos from the Malta trip?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I will drive, it takes 16 hours south down the coast
    Yakuzza Lethecus: didn't i toss you my photos ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Are you in California Cal?
    Bleu Oleander: oh yes, i did see yours
    Yakuzza Lethecus: http://www.flickr.com/photos/yakuzza_lethecus/
    Agatha Macbeth: Ouch
    Yakuzza Lethecus: too late :)
    Bleu Oleander: no photos of the group?
    Bertram Jacobus: sry and hy :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: faces are private :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I am in Washington State, so it takes a while
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Bert :) Thanks for stepping on me
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bert
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh, ok
    Bleu Oleander: hi Bert
    Calvino Rabeni: I could fly, but it is good to visit friends along the route
    Bertram Jacobus: yvw agatha ! :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: It's usually Ara who does that
    Bertram Jacobus: always the same can be boring ...
    Agatha Macbeth: True
    Agatha Macbeth: Did you say you had a topic in mind Cal?
    Agatha Macbeth: (Again with the silence)
    Agatha Macbeth: Silent Hill was noisier than this ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hy zon
    Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Zon
    Zon Quar: hi all
    Agatha Macbeth: Or should I say aloha
    Bleu Oleander: hi Zon
    Bertram Jacobus: why aloha ? because of zons shirt ? :-)
    Zon Quar: aloha would be nicer
    Agatha Macbeth: Yep
    Bertram Jacobus: :-))
    Agatha Macbeth: Only needs a grass skirt to set it off :)
    Zon Quar: u should wear one next time
    Calvino Rabeni: The best topics come from something interesting that is going on in one's life
    Agatha Macbeth: No, I meant you :)
    Zon Quar: lol
    Agatha Macbeth: grins
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe things presented by other people
    Zon Quar: men dont wear skirts
    Zon Quar: except scotts
    Agatha Macbeth: They DON'T???
    Zon Quar: no
    Zon Quar: women do
    Agatha Macbeth: holds up her hands in horror
    Agatha Macbeth: They don't know what they're missing....
    Zon Quar: although sometimes women also use pants
    Agatha Macbeth: This is true
    Agatha Macbeth: I mean, look at Bleu...
    Bertram Jacobus: some men may guess ... ( what they're missing)
    Calvino Rabeni: Second life is even more feminized than RL for some reason - I wonder why?
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: In what way Cal?
    Zon Quar: women r more verbal


    Zon Quar: verbally more gifted than men usually, perhaps thats one reason
    Agatha Macbeth: Possible, debatable...
    Calvino Rabeni: Compared to RL, SL has even more emphasis on looks, fashion, shopping for female things, clothes -
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh yes, definitely!
    Calvino Rabeni: not to mention that many RL males become female here - but not so much the other way around
    Agatha Macbeth: I just spent 400L on clothes before I came here :)
    Calvino Rabeni: A world based more on appearances may encourage that
    Zon Quar: h
    Zon Quar: hm
    Agatha Macbeth: Why do you think that is Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: I am just wondering the reasons the gender bias shifts to female here
    Calvino Rabeni: Not really sure
    Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it's more fun to be a girl in SL?
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe because appearances are what females know better to manage
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes could be
    Calvino Rabeni: Speculation could come up with many reasons
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Eliza :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i don't think that.
    Zon Quar: appaerances..hm
    Agatha Macbeth: tell us more Bert
    Zon Quar: is this a cause or result
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha, Bert, Bleu, Ya, Cal, Zon
    Zon Quar: hi eliza ?
    Bertram Jacobus: i think being a man is as nice as being a woman here
    Zon Quar: sry no ?
    Bertram Jacobus: hi eliza :-)
    Zon Quar: but ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the concern with how the avatar looks is parallel to in RL how women spend a lot of time thinking about how the look to other people
    Agatha Macbeth: Ok Bert, good for you ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Makeup, hair, styles, etc.
    Zon Quar: that doesnt expalin why they r here
    Calvino Rabeni: As in RL, there are more clothing options for females
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes Cal, true
    Bertram Jacobus: good for all agatha ( when my thoughts are correct) ...
    Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza
    Calvino Rabeni: and here, likewise, if not even more so
    Zon Quar: that could be result
    Zon Quar: not cause
    Calvino Rabeni: And it is about relationships perhaps also
    Calvino Rabeni: which SL seems to be about
    Agatha Macbeth: Relationships?
    Zon Quar: that could be it
    Bertram Jacobus: relationships *agree* :o)
    Agatha Macbeth: In what way?
    Zon Quar: women can play more safely here
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, most people probably come here to relate to people, rather than to build things or hang out in solitude
    Bertram Jacobus: some find here partners
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that occured to me Zon also
    Agatha Macbeth: True Zon
    Agatha Macbeth: Also true Cal
    Zon Quar: i think sl is very much of connecting with ppl
    Calvino Rabeni: And there are not so many rewards for pretending to be a man here
    Agatha Macbeth: You can't get physically damaged here
    Calvino Rabeni: compared to pretending to be a woman
    Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
    Calvino Rabeni: Some RL women take little care with their avatars, but it is the minority I believe
    Zon Quar: hm can u elaborete caL ?
    Bertram Jacobus: i think you can (get physically damaged here) , because - there are overlappings physis / psyche
    Calvino Rabeni: Female avatars with slider hair and just one bag-like dress
    Zon Quar: OF REWARDS ..?
    Zon Quar: sry caps
    Calvino Rabeni: They are almost like monks in disregard for appearances
    Agatha Macbeth: You can get emotionally damaged Bert, that is true
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Zon Quar: of being a woman or man here
    Bertram Jacobus: yes agatha . ty . and emotions have a physical component
    Zon Quar: what r the rewards ?
    Agatha Macbeth: You can't be damaged physically in SL but you can get damaged emotionally
    Bertram Jacobus: may be these components are a bit subtle ... ;-)
    Bleu Oleander: emotional damage could lead to physical damage
    Agatha Macbeth: How so Bleu?
    Zon Quar: but its still safer here for women than in rl
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes, true Zon
    Bleu Oleander: emotional health affects overall health
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, understood
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: for example , one can get stomach ulcers from getting emotionally hurt
    Agatha Macbeth: nods
    Zon Quar: and perhaps its also because in sl can be very emotionional
    Zon Quar: and women like that more
    Bleu Oleander: we have an interesting salon coming up in sl by a documentary film producer on his new film about sl
    Zon Quar: just guessing
    Bertram Jacobus: but what here is a bit different from the non sl world : you can always log off (!) ;-)
    Bleu Oleander: talks about some of these issues
    Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't seem to me one can get very "emotional" in SL - no one can see you pout, turn red, stomp foot, use a tone of voice, etc.
    Agatha Macbeth: What's that about Bleu?
    Bleu Oleander: sl/rl relationships
    Eliza Madrigal: Apologies... can't settle... bye for now :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza
    Agatha Macbeth: Who is the producer?
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Eliza :(
    Zon Quar: Cal..u have things to explore then..lol
    Bleu Oleander: the film is "Life 2.0" by Jason Springarm-Koff
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh right
    Agatha Macbeth: I have heard something of these salons Bleu, where do they take place?


    Zon Quar: is the film for sl or to be presented in rl ?
    Bleu Oleander: take place on location
    Agatha Macbeth: People get informed in advance then, presumably?
    Bertram Jacobus: (one can use voice in sl cal) ...
    Bleu Oleander: yes, Agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: Right
    Agatha Macbeth: That would be very interesting
    Bleu Oleander: i'll let you all know when we have a lm
    Agatha Macbeth: Thank you :)
    Bleu Oleander: it's on sat. 2/20 at 10am slt
    Agatha Macbeth: Right
    Bleu Oleander: the film opened at the Sundance Festival
    Agatha Macbeth: Damn, don't think I can make that, RL commitments
    Bleu Oleander: :(
    Agatha Macbeth: Saturdays are always difficult for me
    Agatha Macbeth: Um, it's gone quiet again....
    Bertram Jacobus: quietness - also nice
    Agatha Macbeth: Enjoy the silence?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: But Agatha, it's your job today to stir things up :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Damn, forgot my spoon :)
    Bleu Oleander: what are you doing in rl when you are all quiet in sl?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes IM
    Bleu Oleander: are you meditating?
    Bleu Oleander: at your computers?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes just hassling with the controls on the viewer
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i have to admit, i intoxicate myself real life, i am watching metropolis on arte
    Calvino Rabeni: Some people look at email
    Agatha Macbeth: Probably reading emails :)
    Calvino Rabeni: or youtube
    Agatha Macbeth: Snap!
    Bertram Jacobus: different things bleu : sometimes reading profiles, sometimes just enjoying silence , for example
    Calvino Rabeni: or other "multitasking"
    Zon Quar: im looking at utube
    Calvino Rabeni: naughty-naughty :)
    Zon Quar: krishnamurti
    Agatha Macbeth: Whose profiles?
    Zon Quar: interesting
    Agatha Macbeth: Krishna who ti?
    Calvino Rabeni: Browsing avatar profiles
    Bleu Oleander: i thought everyone was meditating!
    Bleu Oleander: hehe
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Yes, of course we are :)))
    Agatha Macbeth: I couldn't meditate to save my life
    Bertram Jacobus: of silly people. sry to say that. joined a german group. goup chat appears. -
    Zon Quar: yes..ommmmmm
    Agatha Macbeth: Ommmmmmmmmy god....
    Bertram Jacobus: always hope to find an interesting one (profile) ...
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, but do you?
    Calvino Rabeni: Getting curious, for example about tag lines
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, that's how i found most of the interesting places for me
    Bertram Jacobus: very seldom. my fault i guess
    Calvino Rabeni: For example "Water Tiger" - what could that be about?
    Agatha Macbeth: Tag lines?
    Agatha Macbeth: In my case, somebody born in 1962
    Calvino Rabeni: And sometimes I decide - OK, no multitasking, just presence :)
    Agatha Macbeth: 1962 was a Water Tiger year in Chinese astrology
    Zon Quar: so in sl u can do what u wish..isnt this perfect
    Bleu Oleander: presence in sl or rl?
    Bertram Jacobus: (wood horse here) ...
    Calvino Rabeni: And I believe there are certain people in the group who try for presence as a rule, rather than multitasking or distraction
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not naming names though
    Agatha Macbeth: grins at Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. quite perfect zon
    Bleu Oleander: when you try for presence where are you present?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually, i am thinking more about my ,,non presence" since i am here
    Agatha Macbeth: There is no spoon
    Bertram Jacobus: presence in sl and rl bleu (when there is presence). because sl is part of rl
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am struggling even with true silence in real life
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but it depends
    Bleu Oleander: I was just going to say that Yaku .... when present in sl, absent in rl
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Zon Quar: we r not present on sl or in rl..
    Zon Quar: when we r present...
    Zon Quar: we r now here


    Agatha Macbeth: At PaB
    Zon Quar: not a place but a state of being
    Agatha Macbeth: Think it's just winding down
    Calvino Rabeni: It is *much* easier to hide behind the "mask" of the avatar, in SL, compared to hiding behind the mask of the real face, in RL
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i got to go, i have another event i am curious about
    Yakuzza Lethecus: cya soon
    Bleu Oleander: cya
    Zon Quar: who do u hide from ?
    Bertram Jacobus: bye yaku
    Bleu Oleander: gtg too, bfn
    Bertram Jacobus: bye bleu
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bleu
    Zon Quar: bye bleu, yaku
    Agatha Macbeth: Think I will go too, bye all :)
    Bertram Jacobus: bye agatha
    Zon Quar: oh..late for me too
    Zon Quar: c u
    Bertram Jacobus: bye zon
    Calvino Rabeni: Easy come. easy go
    Bertram Jacobus: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: why hiding cal ?
    Calvino Rabeni: The awareness is not an all-or-nothing condition
    Calvino Rabeni: that was not an answer to hiding
    Bertram Jacobus: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: do you have awareness of hiding?
    Bertram Jacobus: no
    Bertram Jacobus: hiding me or others ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hiding self behind masks
    Bertram Jacobus: not very important to me - for you ?
    Calvino Rabeni: it is important to everyone - you would be exceptional if it weren't so
    Calvino Rabeni: usually people aren't aware
    Bertram Jacobus: i do it for money sometimes i guess. otherwise i feel quite free
    Calvino Rabeni: Walk into a room - say something with no pre-planning - something primal perhaps, or negative....
    Calvino Rabeni: no planning, completely spontaneous, no mental rehearsal
    Bertram Jacobus: planning is not hiding, in my opinion
    Calvino Rabeni: wear ones heart on ones sleeve
    Bertram Jacobus: not nessecairily
    Calvino Rabeni: complete utter spontaneity, no buffering, no disconnection between inner and outer
    Calvino Rabeni: no considering
    Calvino Rabeni: this is all the function of masks
    Calvino Rabeni: Some people are way more emotionally expressive, some are reserved
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - my understanding of thoses masks is lying
    Calvino Rabeni: some people's eyes are a window into their soul, they flash with intensity or warmth
    Calvino Rabeni: others have unexpressive eyes, they are behind their masks
    Calvino Rabeni: if you travel, you see, different cultures are quite different with respect to
    Calvino Rabeni: how much they get in each others faces - both through physical closeness,
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. may be. i'm a simple man or would like to be it was my spontaneous thought now ...
    Calvino Rabeni: and how much their faces are spontaneous and animated - how much they are "IN" their faces
    Bertram Jacobus: so much is not hidden ?
    Bertram Jacobus: one can see a lot ?
    Calvino Rabeni: less hidden or hidden deeper perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: more communicative
    Bertram Jacobus: i like openness
    Bertram Jacobus: recognize people and being recognized
    Calvino Rabeni: they might bury the truly private stuff deeper, in order to have a thicker layer of relating and expressing with people
    Calvino Rabeni: It sounds good, but in practice, it is a different thing
    Bertram Jacobus: different ? from what please ?
    Calvino Rabeni: People have an idea of "openness" but when they attempt to be truly open, it is found not to be at all easy
    Calvino Rabeni: for example
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm talking about the idea of openness versus the embodiment of it
    Bertram Jacobus: may be it's a question of the personal habits ...
    Bertram Jacobus: for some it may be hard to hide ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: it's personality, character, body-level learning, and culture
    Calvino Rabeni: and all of those are usually, quite unconscious


    Bertram Jacobus: with every bit of action we cover or reveal
    Calvino Rabeni: Those are limits that are not noticed until one attempts to cross them
    Bertram Jacobus: important that everyone can feel comfortable
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree withh your last statement
    Calvino Rabeni: Everyone needs to find their own dynamic balance between comfort and risk
    Calvino Rabeni: which is fundamental to how "beings" operate
    Bertram Jacobus: and some are more concious others less
    Bertram Jacobus: not all is unconcious
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes! most are very little conscious for example
    Bertram Jacobus: i mostly don't think about that much
    Calvino Rabeni: If one continues to pursue one little aspect of an experience
    Bertram Jacobus: tyr to experience
    Calvino Rabeni: which is the kind of thing we do sometime in PaB
    Bertram Jacobus: feel
    Calvino Rabeni: then it can be found that behind the tinest action, is a complex web of meaning, strategy, assumptions, limits, desires, rules, etc.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: there are no limitations in tiniest and biggest i guess
    Calvino Rabeni: Every point of experience seems to be able to open into an unlimited amount of knowledge
    Bertram Jacobus: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: my impression too
    Calvino Rabeni: since it is an expression of the whole, as in Indra's Net (or jewel)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: and no limitations
    Bertram Jacobus: may be
    Calvino Rabeni: But, when people try it, they immediately turn back from the encounter
    Bertram Jacobus: looks like
    Calvino Rabeni: Why is that .... (rhetorical question)
    Bertram Jacobus: "people" - we are the people, aren't we ?
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I will say yes me, and also, it appears we all have it in common
    Calvino Rabeni: But I have more direct insight into the "me"
    Bertram Jacobus: but we have also "the good sides"
    Bertram Jacobus: potentials
    Calvino Rabeni: All sides are good, perhaps :)
    Bertram Jacobus: not in my experience
    Calvino Rabeni: What are the good versus bad sides then?
    Bertram Jacobus: pain versus being happy for example
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't relate very strongly to "bad side"
    Bertram Jacobus: nice
    Bertram Jacobus: i found, that expecting the bad , brings better results :o) - and expecting the good , brings bad results :o)
    Calvino Rabeni: Pain is a sensation, but it doesn't have to carry so much baggage of "badness"
    Calvino Rabeni: "Bad" has a very lot of cultural stuff attached
    Calvino Rabeni: moral stuff, etc.
    Bertram Jacobus: for me it's a feeling
    Bertram Jacobus: what i mean with it
    Bertram Jacobus: pain or pleasure, based on what ever
    Calvino Rabeni: A feeling is not a fixed thing, it can open up also
    Bertram Jacobus: sure. but that doesn't mean that it disappears at once, then
    Calvino Rabeni: In my experience, the pain has a pleasure in it too
    Bertram Jacobus: hm. i can't share that in all my past experiences
    Calvino Rabeni: And if it can't be made to disappear, at least, I'm able to feel the pleasure part in the pain,and that transforms my relationship to it
    Calvino Rabeni: Past experiences are likewise not fixed and solidified
    Bertram Jacobus: nice. i can't do that - sometimes ? often ? don't know
    Calvino Rabeni: since they are actually appearing in the present time
    Calvino Rabeni: Like a memory of shame or disappointment
    Calvino Rabeni: considered a bad memory
    Bertram Jacobus: i feel a hughe difference between theory and practise
    Bertram Jacobus: i know "all the theories"
    Bertram Jacobus: but can't agree with most of them :o)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, same here :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And they seem partly-right-partly-wrong
    Bertram Jacobus: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: And the practice is more important
    Calvino Rabeni: (personally)
    Bertram Jacobus: essential
    Calvino Rabeni: Theories are problematical as we know
    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, in practice :)
    Bertram Jacobus: lol


    Calvino Rabeni: If held lightly in practice, they don't cause too many problems :)
    Bertram Jacobus: you produced hearts !? could i do that, too !? :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a script, I can give it to you
    Bertram Jacobus: that was what i meant / hoped ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: would be very kind :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: This was made by Fael
    Bertram Jacobus: really kind - ty ! :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. the object says that ...
    Calvino Rabeni: It is nicely tuned - somewhat subtle, a good rhythm and pace
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. really nice ... like it ... ty again ! :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I have a more dramatic one -
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - yes ? ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: which got from someone who is more "expressive" :)
    Bertram Jacobus: (whether they will like such entertainement at the wiki?) ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: lol yes :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: hearts
    Calvino Rabeni: see it?
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - yes ! :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: i like faels more ... ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: as you said already ...
    Bertram Jacobus: *agree*
    Bertram Jacobus: okay - "enough for today" ?
    Calvino Rabeni: The floating hearts script reminds me of the "masks"
    Bertram Jacobus: oh
    Bertram Jacobus: in which way ?
    Calvino Rabeni: as much as one stays behind the mask, emotions leak out slowly :)
    Calvino Rabeni: One slowly emits emotional energy
    Bertram Jacobus: ah :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: like hearts floating out where they can be seen
    Bertram Jacobus: yesyes
    Calvino Rabeni: OK sure, enough for today?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes please
    Bertram Jacobus: was very nice
    Bertram Jacobus: ty cal :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: good talking to you - see you later :)
    Bertram Jacobus: same here :-)


    2010.02.12 19:00 - The Niceness is Not the Turtle

    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal, filling in for Genesis. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal who was joined by Paradise, Eos, Calvino, and Alanya, for this session in which we talk of love, boxes, empathy, mirrors, and knowing, and...

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Paradise!
    Eliza Madrigal: It has been forever since I've seen you :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles hello elliza .. so good to seey you :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Paradise Tennant: how have you been :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Quite well, thanks. You? Are just back from travelling? I know you extended your trip beyond retreat...
    Paradise Tennant: yes .. spent some time in sicily and rome before coming home .. great trip :) but happy to be home:)
    Eliza Madrigal: Must be a good feeling... and missed your puppy I'm sure
    Paradise Tennant: lol yes indeed :) there was much puppy love to be had when I got in :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Paradise Tennant: hard to be away from what we love .. love is such a strong attachment :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Indeed!
    Eliza Madrigal: It IS that... isn't it...
    Paradise Tennant: yes .. somehow I always find the buddhist concept that you eventually have to drop even the very good stuff very hard really
    Eliza Madrigal: There is a quote that strikes at some deep place in me... have no real inkling why... "Better to be known than loved"
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, yes...
    Eliza Madrigal: I think it is along the lines of knowing that even a nice box is still a box
    Paradise Tennant: yes that is an interesting quote thank you for sharing it ..
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi E, P, A
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya eos .. cal :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :) You look fancy! Snapshot_117.jpg
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Cal
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey Arch
    Paradise Tennant: hiya arch
    Eliza Madrigal: nice boxes = pedestals... which seem like a good idea but hm, not so much
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Only by being known, can one be truely loved
    Calvino Rabeni: hello all !
    Eos Amaterasu: ciao'all
    Archmage Atlantis: brb
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Paradise Tennant: hmm ... even a nice box is a box... appearances as confinement ...
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... and the confining might even be called love/appreciation... not sure :)
    Eos Amaterasu: the niceness is not the turtle
    Paradise Tennant: a:)
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh Eos... your enigmatic phrases....
    Paradise Tennant: still blinking
    Eos Amaterasu: :-) ellipses
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: ugh, nothing is working to night
    Eos Amaterasu: What was that quote you were referring to?
    Eliza Madrigal: Actually.... I read it on my 39th birthday... and it was written by a model... "It is better to be known than loved"...
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: she may have picked it up from somewhere... but it struck me
    Calvino Rabeni: With Boxing Day, is it packging or pugilism, or what ?
    Paradise Tennant: love is .. also a way of being .. I think
    Eos Amaterasu:

    That love is all

    And love is everyone

    It is knowing

    It is knowing

    Paradise Tennant: to be experienced
    Paradise Tennant: lovely eos thank you
    Eos Amaterasu: (thank the Beatles)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Knowing does seem more intimate
    Paradise Tennant: [19:04] Eliza Madrigal: There is a quote that strikes at some deep place in me... have no real inkling why... "Better to be known than loved"
    Eos Amaterasu: truth is greater intimacy?
    Paradise Tennant: what we were chatting about when you arrived eos
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...
    Eliza Madrigal: or maybe a different more timeless sort...


    Eos Amaterasu: what is "knowing", then?


    Paradise Tennant: hmmm there are as many ways to define love as ways of being .. I think it is like a mirror...
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe knowing makes room for someone... could be called love...
    Eliza Madrigal: Like a mirror paradise?
    Eos Amaterasu finds himself inside a mirror paradise
    Paradise Tennant: yes ..
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Paradise Tennant: struggling to find the words for what I mean
    Eos Amaterasu: mirror as in empathy?
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting imagery errupts somehow....
    Paradise Tennant: waht we love , our very selves , are all illusion , the a
    Paradise Tennant: sorry was trying to delete
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, that does seem one way of love empathy... expansiveness... reflecting and absorbing in a sense...
    Paradise Tennant: in the very nature of emptyness .... I think there is room for love .. even if it only is mirror
    Eliza Madrigal watches herself get carried away :))
    Eos Amaterasu: similar to knowing, though, is it not (knowing also mirrors, crosses the me & that gap)
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Getting to know that gap.... seems the gap becomes no gap.... or all gap....
    Eos Amaterasu: love itself embodies its emptiness nature
    Paradise Tennant: sorry sleepy .. so things are not processing right and fingers seem a little confused :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Mirroring someone is much richer and more active than looking in an empty mirror like narcissus
    Eliza Madrigal: That's my natural state Paradise! :)))
    Calvino Rabeni: Being mirrored is to be expanded
    Calvino Rabeni: better than love?
    Eliza Madrigal: I suppose we were talking about conventional love...
    Calvino Rabeni: If one has positive self knowledge, then is conventional love less attractive?
    Paradise Tennant: romantic love not so much .. but appreciation ... profound acceptance ..reverence and the insight to cherish the uniqueness of what arises .. maybe is closer to the mark ?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, love AS letting go....
    Eliza Madrigal: which allows for a richer moment perhaps
    Eos Amaterasu: full acceptance, full presence, full absence (as in letting be)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes.. a rare bird
    Paradise Tennant: fullness of the moment .. has to somehow incorporate love I think
    Eos Amaterasu: the moment is emptiness pregnant
    Eos Amaterasu: no need to go elsewhere

    From whence has beauty sweetness?...

    Calvino Rabeni: beauty is said to have an element of the uncanny or a flaw of some kind - could it be the same with love?
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting....
    Calvino Rabeni: Isn't in love, a hint of tragedy to make it sweeter?
    Eos Amaterasu: We often know it won't last
    Eos Amaterasu: like smelling and looking at a rose
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe that element of the uncanny/flaw is "the crack which lets the light in"... which makes touch-able.... YES, the hint of transience....
    Eos Amaterasu: un canny
    Eliza Madrigal: somehow a relief, even when excruciating
    Eos Amaterasu: beyond knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: If your beloved were perfect in every way, would that not be an impediment
    Calvino Rabeni: And vice versa
    Calvino Rabeni: If you were perfect in every way, love would have less to offer
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe nothing
    Calvino Rabeni: If there is perfection, it is in the transcendence of opposites
    Calvino Rabeni: Or so say, some philosophers of love :)
    Eos Amaterasu: sometimes love is left speechless


    Paradise Tennant: ;) good timing eos
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Paradise Tennant: perhaps I can best express .. what I mean by saying that the deepest understanding comes through love ...
    Eliza Madrigal: due to willingness to look deeper?
    Eliza Madrigal: or impute good will? :)
    Paradise Tennant: through bridging the illusory gaps
    Eos Amaterasu: or share the ground of the other's being?
    Eliza Madrigal: those sentences/phrases seem to overlap nicely...
    Calvino Rabeni: know the other as oneself
    Eos Amaterasu: sharing and recognizing the illusory gaps in each other
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: potential...
    Eos Amaterasu: "that's my 9 secs" "that's your 9 secs"
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eos Amaterasu: is that being known?

    Eliza Madrigal feels her eyebrows uncrinkle... had been holding some stress :)
    Eos Amaterasu is empathizing with eyebrows uncrinkling
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: I was given a notecard last week... quoted Trungpa "Don't trust anyone"... talked about how we hold expectations, identities for others...
    Eliza Madrigal: which doesn't allow for surprise, growth, change...
    Eliza Madrigal: easy trap... especially if we fall 'in love' with aspects or qualities... and center on those...
    Eos Amaterasu: that's back to the "good box" being still a box?
    Eliza Madrigal: then, in doing that, we don't really get to know someone... just an aspect. Yes
    Eliza Madrigal: :) golden cages are still cages
    Eliza Madrigal: but reacting against potential cages all the time doesn't seem to help either... haha
    Eliza Madrigal: Sigh :)
    Eos Amaterasu: or, from the other direction, the bars may be empty but they are still gold
    Paradise Tennant: true love embrasses the all -I suspect -without judgement-without bars :) ?
    Eos Amaterasu: true like ice like fire : elemental and intense, bar none


    Eliza Madrigal: :)



    Paradise Tennant: ;) I have been doing aspiration sessions for the gun toting, dog abuser we encountered in Malta, at first with limited success because I just get so mad when I go there but lately .. much better focus and getting through my own judgement to the reality - he and i are on the most profound level absolutely the same
    Eos Amaterasu: hmm
    Eliza Madrigal: aspiration sessions?
    Eliza Madrigal: metta?
    Paradise Tennant: aspiration yes a kind of metta
    Paradise Tennant: visualization
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah
    Eliza Madrigal: not so easy... I admire your attention to that...
    Eos Amaterasu: That's great, paradise
    Paradise Tennant: the same .. equally empty :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: equally enmeshed in karma
    Eliza Madrigal: peel back enough layers and we're all just someone...
    Eliza Madrigal: with yes... circumstances and priveleges and blessed people showing up in our lives....
    Eliza Madrigal: we're fortunate when we can see it perhaps
    Eos Amaterasu: feel all the circumstantiality but not feel trapped in it
    Eliza Madrigal: 'The foolish are trapped by karma, while the wise are liberated through karma.' Stonepeace
    Eliza Madrigal: (has no idea who or what stonepeace is) hehe
    Eos Amaterasu: could be a thoughtless realm
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: It is difficult to do - to become the cruel person
    Calvino Rabeni: And own the gun and whatever it is capable of
    Eliza Madrigal: become the cruel person? Oh... I see what you are saying, yes.. to really step in to another view and consider it
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that is what I mean
    Calvino Rabeni: To find total acceptance
    Paradise Tennant: lol sigh yes
    Calvino Rabeni: More than thinking - if I were him I would be better of course
    Eliza Madrigal: We don't need to accept the way someone does something to be able to consider why they think they need to do it that way
    Eos Amaterasu: that person is not "the cruel person" in their own eyes
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes right eos
    Eos Amaterasu: so becoming him is losing _your_ eyes
    Calvino Rabeni: Losing little me yes
    Eos Amaterasu: (without going crazy)
    Calvino Rabeni: Which makes it a good practice
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, and trusting that one won't get stuck there... that the expansion will kick in....
    Paradise Tennant: yes it does :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Paradise Tennant: counter balanced by the odd thought of dog napping :)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    A visitor arrives, stays a long while, and Eos guides us into 9/90 second practice...  

    Alanya Jinx: Hi
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alanya :)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya alanya
    Eliza Madrigal: Welcome to PlayasBeing :))
    Alanya Jinx: How are things here?
    Eliza Madrigal: Have you visited us before, Alanya?
    Alanya Jinx: no, first time here
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Nice to meet you... I'll give you a notecard which tells a little about our group....
    Alanya Jinx: Thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: You've been in SL just a few weeks I see... Having fun?
    Alanya Jinx: Yes, but I'm still trying to see what are the most interesting things to do here. I am bored or going somewhere and dancing!
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, yes.. only so much dancing one can do
    Eliza Madrigal: What are your interests, generally?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I need to ask if it is okay if I include you in the chat log. We record our sessions. :)
    Alanya Jinx: Erm , I run, I like music, I read, travel adn I used to be into philosophy, but haven't had time for that lately.
    Alanya Jinx: OK
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Great philosophy groups in SL actually... good discussions...
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes I think we fall into that category... maybe with a meditative edge
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: We try to directly experience reality, and talk about it
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: (and chew gum)
    Eliza Madrigal: haha,, and blow bubbles
    Eos Amaterasu: sometimes, indeed :-)
    Alanya Jinx: Directly experience reality? Like emotions? Existential actions??
    Eos Amaterasu: Anything whatsoever that comes up, while you're paying attention to it
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, interesting phrasing.... yes... like 'see what you see'... deeply notice...
    Eos Amaterasu: A Play as Being "trick" is to say, for the next 9 seconds I will drop pushing anything, and just watch (for example)
    Eos Amaterasu: Those are the "lab sessions"
    Eliza Madrigal: It sounds funny at first... but surprisingly vibrant and rich ground to work with....
    Eos Amaterasu: Shall we try it for 9 seconds?
    Eliza Madrigal is game :)
    Alanya Jinx: It sounds interesting. But I am having trouble understanding this.
    Alanya Jinx: I will try
    Eos Amaterasu: ok
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... really only way to understand is just that... 'just try' :)
    Eos Amaterasu: I will "ding" after 9 seconds
    Eos Amaterasu: 3
    Eos Amaterasu: 2
    Eos Amaterasu: 1
    Eos Amaterasu: go
    Eos Amaterasu: ding
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Alanya Jinx: so it is like meditating?
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, you could say that (though meditating can mean many things)
    Eos Amaterasu: but basically a kind of awareness, held loosely
    Eliza Madrigal: Indeed, like meditating, and really looking into things ... and then sharing that experience/ comparing notes
    Alanya Jinx: Being watchful, self aware. Tuned into self .
    Eliza Madrigal: The imagery that comes to mind is goggles under water sometimes... at least for me :)
    Paradise Tennant: precisely :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So I noticed in our little pause together that I immediately smiled
    Alanya Jinx: Were you deliberately trying to visualise
    Eliza Madrigal: felt celebratory... that was the spontaneous reaction this time
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, sometimes we try to visualize... but mostly not I think ...
    Eliza Madrigal: its funny :) That's why it is enjoyable to compare notes
    Alanya Jinx: I felt aware of all the noise around me and how busy I felt ( too much coffee) :)
    Eos Amaterasu: just allow to experience whatever comes up, not shying away from it, not pulling it or pushing it or sticking to it
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Alanya Jinx: This is a cool idea.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes just 'seeing is enough'
    Eliza Madrigal: Well nice that you joined us tonight :)
    Eos Amaterasu: There's a 90 second break coming up (every 15 minutes)
    Paradise Tennant: quietly excues herself .. fading here .. lovely to meet alanya ... good nite eliza, eos, cal , big wave from toronto :)
    Eos Amaterasu: good night!
    Eliza Madrigal: Nite Paradise... good to see you :)
    Calvino Rabeni: bye para!
    Eliza Madrigal: (groovy jeans) hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Calvino, care to share observations from the 9 seconds?
    Eliza Madrigal: 90 rather :))
    Calvino Rabeni: the short one earlier got me started
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes I carry some worry or tension
    Calvino Rabeni: during the 9-sec I felt my teeth, and then hot spot in chest
    Calvino Rabeni: and then during the 90 sec later I started to relax and feel more reassured about the future
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Calvino Rabeni: because what is going on meanwhile is thinking about planning travel
    Calvino Rabeni: which usually makes me a little irrationally worried
    Calvino Rabeni: like I'm not relaxed until it is all planned out
    Eliza Madrigal: details... yes easy to feel entangled there... nods
    Calvino Rabeni: but this awareness thing, I could start to relax anyway
    Calvino Rabeni: what a relief :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) we don't realize how much we're carrying all the time...
    Eliza Madrigal: how much we pick up and drag around
    Calvino Rabeni: i guess that is one handy use of the pause, but it is not the only significance of it
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, so many of the practices here open up and show more dimensions with time... :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Alanya, anything you think to share?
    Calvino Rabeni: that is true
    Alanya Jinx: I wish I hadn't had 2 coffees, because all I feel is a crazy bubbling energy inside me that probably doesn't reflect the real me, just the caffeine
    Eliza Madrigal: Seeing the effect of the caffeine is something in itself I think...
    Calvino Rabeni: :) been there :)
    Eliza Madrigal: like it is separate.... on top of things....
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, "this is me on caffeine"
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Alanya Jinx: I know it is my vice
    Eliza Madrigal relates :)
    Calvino Rabeni: My drug of choice :)
    Eliza Madrigal: And Eos? something to share?
    Eos Amaterasu: Umm.... energy of witness, so to speak
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Alanya Jinx: can you describe that?\
    Eos Amaterasu: sometimes I feel an energy quality to just being there
    Eliza Madrigal sways a little and smiles
    Eos Amaterasu: it can come from when there's a lot of stuff going on, and you don't find a quiet place in that
    Eos Amaterasu: but just witnessing, or staying with the observer of that, is an energized but actually still place
    Eos Amaterasu: the caffeine is buzzing, but you're experiencing the caffeine buzzing
    Alanya Jinx: now you are talking my language
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eos Amaterasu: (or the bees in your head :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I find its possible to "take apart" the experience with awareness - there's a good part to the caffeine buzz, and a part I could let go of
    Eliza Madrigal nods... yes
    Eliza Madrigal: definitely something one begins to notice... distinct components...
    Eliza Madrigal: really fascinating :)
    Alanya Jinx: yes but I notice that it is hard for me to be still i want to race around
    Calvino Rabeni: Like it has mixed emotions also, excitement, a feeling of capability, maybe some fear, maybe too much tunnel vision about something
    Eos Amaterasu: how would you describe the good part of the caffeine buzz?
    Eos Amaterasu: sometimes you get pulled by the flow, Alanya
    Alanya Jinx: the good part is that it feels powerful energetic
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Eos Amaterasu: that's great!
    Eliza Madrigal: like you can do more than you thought?
    Alanya Jinx: the more coffee i have the more i can do but maybe i miss out by being so busy doing
    Calvino Rabeni: But along with it comes some -too much attachment to things in a certain way - maybe, mechanical details or automatic patterns of thinking
    Alanya Jinx: attachment I am not sure
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes maybe the busyness to things actually dulls the experience of the present ...
    Calvino Rabeni: By that I mean, a narrow concern with only certain aspects of whatever is going on. Less ability to be creative, more a feeling of "it must be some way"
    Eos Amaterasu: it steals the energy of the present
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd better sign off... have to get up quite early (and will be drinking large amounts of coffee). We're here four times a day though, Alanya...1,7,1,7 SLT.. hope you'll come back again. Pleasure to meet you. :)
    Alanya Jinx: Bye Eliza
    Alanya Jinx: Thanks
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for stopping by, Alanya
    Eos Amaterasu: Also disappearing, good night, thank you Eliza, Cal, Alanya
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Everyone. A Pleasure :))
    Alanya Jinx: Bye Eos

    Funny when we see ourselves. :)

    From here Alanyna an Calvino discuss feeling at home, travel, etc...

    Alanya Jinx: Guess what? I have just been offered a coffee. What do you think I said?
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks?
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Alanya Jinx: Yes, despite knowing I would be better without it I can't resist
    Calvino Rabeni: Coffee is important to society too, it helps people get things done
    Alanya Jinx: My excuse is that it is morning in my time zone.
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, not here
    Alanya Jinx: True I drink more when I am working than when on holiday
    Calvino Rabeni: I found green tea to have a smoother stimulation
    Calvino Rabeni: If I really wanted to work on a project with sustained focus, I might use that
    Calvino Rabeni: less buzzy
    Alanya Jinx: Yes I had forgotten about green tea
    Alanya Jinx: Jasmine green tea is god
    Calvino Rabeni: Coffee has more of a kick
    Calvino Rabeni: but worse when it wears off
    Alanya Jinx: sometimes we need a kick
    Alanya Jinx: when it wears off i just get sleepy which is ok
    Calvino Rabeni: You never know what the discussion here will be
    Calvino Rabeni: pretty wide ranging
    Alanya Jinx: That's good. Did I miss anything interesting?
    Calvino Rabeni: what are your interests ?
    Calvino Rabeni: TO a certain degree it is possible to create a conversation here
    Alanya Jinx: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: to match whatever interests one has
    Calvino Rabeni: since awareness basically can enliven almost any subject
    Calvino Rabeni: but it isn't very often debate, or problem solving
    Alanya Jinx: i like the unpredictable spontaneous nature of this
    Calvino Rabeni: That it is
    Calvino Rabeni: Like philosophy, meditation, and running - who has the time?
    Calvino Rabeni: Unless they are all combined at the same time, which is possible
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Alanya Jinx: True
    Calvino Rabeni: Many of my best thoughts were during long runs
    Alanya Jinx: And caffeine and running are a match made in heaven!
    Calvino Rabeni: You never know to look at people, they might be secretly meditating at the same time as doing some perfectly ordinary thing
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes true
    Calvino Rabeni: And even caffeine and meditating is not a bad mix
    Calvino Rabeni: although the purists and traditional teachers might warn against it
    Alanya Jinx: I like the runs when I have a lot on my mind and I forget I am running I am just thinking
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, I love that too
    Alanya Jinx: And the runs when I have great energy and I am not thinking at all
    Calvino Rabeni: I especially like nature running
    Calvino Rabeni: like on trails in mountain or forest
    Alanya Jinx: Yes, me too, that is the best, but I seldom do it.
    Calvino Rabeni: or mabye even cross-country, if the terrain allows it
    Alanya Jinx: On holidays I always go exploring, trekking off somewhere, usually in flip flops.
    Calvino Rabeni: To follow one's interest and impulses
    Alanya Jinx: When I visit my mother there are some great runs on the sea front paths
    Calvino Rabeni: Which part of the world?
    Calvino Rabeni: In some places there are traditions of walking as a kind of a meditation of vision quest
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I would like that
    Calvino Rabeni: I suspect far back in many traditions the same can be found
    Alanya Jinx: Yes sounds good. I am trying to think where? Celtic, druids??
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and in the middle east, and in australia, and with native americans
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't know of any "studies" of this specifically
    Calvino Rabeni: but it seems common in cultures that are with nature
    Alanya Jinx: Monks often go to extemes to contemplate
    Calvino Rabeni: Now we do "web surfing" as a kind of similar thing :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes they do
    Alanya Jinx: Tell me how web surfing compares...
    Calvino Rabeni: Just joking, mostly, about the web surfing. What it has in common is following impulses whereever they lead
    Calvino Rabeni: but I don't think it has the transcendant quality
    Alanya Jinx: Ok!
    Calvino Rabeni: I do think, people need to wander and explore
    Alanya Jinx: Yes, web surfing is more like watching tv
    Calvino Rabeni: this is an instinct
    Calvino Rabeni: But where one goes is important too
    Calvino Rabeni: it needs to be to a place where there is some mystery
    Alanya Jinx: I love wandering, it is the best thing. I don't lke to stay in the same place for too long.
    Calvino Rabeni: and I don't think, TV and the web seem like places of mystery
    Calvino Rabeni: because everything is programmed to be intelligible and automatic
    Alanya Jinx: True and when I visit a new place, it can just be a new street, I feel switch on, intrigued
    Calvino Rabeni: same here, it touches a deep need
    Alanya Jinx: I am curious, where are you from inrl?
    Alanya Jinx: in rl?
    Calvino Rabeni: then after a while when it becomes known, I may feel a bit of sadness
    Calvino Rabeni: West coast, USA
    Calvino Rabeni: I move around different places
    Alanya Jinx: For work?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes, but bad economy, I moved from a small town where economy is bad, now in a bigger city
    Calvino Rabeni: But no specific place feels like home - although the American West does
    Alanya Jinx: I have a job which means I can live pretty much anywhere in the world so the temptation is to keep moving
    Calvino Rabeni: something online work?
    Alanya Jinx: No ironically teaching
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, it is a skill needed most places
    Alanya Jinx: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: What / who do you teach?
    Alanya Jinx: I teach young children - British Curriculum at international schools
    Alanya Jinx: And you?
    Calvino Rabeni: technology, information mostly, lots of uses for that
    Calvino Rabeni: but now I take contracts occasionally, not a salaried job
    Calvino Rabeni: my free time is important, sometimes I'd travel
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't so much want to be tied down
    Calvino Rabeni: Although, maybe I should :)
    Alanya Jinx: Yes it is hard to commit. And causes worry. I have to sign 2 year contracts which is exciting but worrying too
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you travel different nations? Which have you liked?
    Alanya Jinx: I'm in Thailand now and finding it hard to leave. Before that Taiwan which was incomprehensible.
    Calvino Rabeni: Where in Thailand?
    Alanya Jinx: Phuket
    Calvino Rabeni: Where in Phuket ?
    Alanya Jinx: Do you know Phuket
    Calvino Rabeni: somewhat
    Alanya Jinx: Tell me what you know first!
    Calvino Rabeni: Not well though. But I wandered all over thailand - care to see pictures?
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a great place
    Alanya Jinx: Yes, of course
    Calvino Rabeni: http://picasaweb.google.com/WyldMedia/Thailand#
    Calvino Rabeni: The map markers show the locations
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Julia
    Alanya Jinx: Hi Julia
    Alanya Jinx: Come in
    Alanya Jinx: Calvino, can you give me that website again please?
    Calvino Rabeni: http://picasaweb.google.com/WyldMedia/Thailand#
    Alanya Jinx: th;anks
    Alanya Jinx: Do you know if i can minimise SL and look at your pics at the same time?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that should work ok \
    Alanya Jinx: But without sounding foolish, how do i minimise sl?
    Calvino Rabeni: the in-viewer browser has a button (open in my web browser)
    Calvino Rabeni: which should show the web page in the browser outside SL
    Calvino Rabeni: It should pop up on top of SL
    Calvino Rabeni: you could ignore SL, or minimize it with on of the buttons on the window title bar
    Calvino Rabeni: depending on whether it is a mac or a pc
    Alanya Jinx: its a mac
    Calvino Rabeni: not sure, one of the buttons does that, probably not red one :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I have the PC, so couldn't give exact advice, good luck
    Alanya Jinx: i am trying
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyway there's a lot to like about Thailand - it had a certain magic to it for me
    Alanya Jinx: Yes it is great. I love the sea, the mountains, cliffs the orange robed monks, the colour, the food, the weather etc
    Alanya Jinx: But is is also a big hot and right now it is really noisy! Chinese New Year and firecrackers going off.
    Calvino Rabeni: everything. I even like Bangkok
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght, I forgot about that :)
    Alanya Jinx: Yes Bangkok is great. I like the city.
    Alanya Jinx: Dogs are barking too because of the firecrackers
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: which town is that?
    Alanya Jinx: Chalong on Phuket
    Calvino Rabeni: I would usually rent a motorcycle and go "wandering"
    Calvino Rabeni: off the tourist paths mostly
    Alanya Jinx: I love the way that mid conversation a bell reminds us to stop and meditate
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I like that - wouldn't mind if it were more public practice
    Calvino Rabeni: In thailand at certain times everyone stops to give allegiance
    Calvino Rabeni: did you notice that in bangkok?
    Alanya Jinx: 8am and 6pm?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that
    Alanya Jinx: i hear it at work every morning. It is a bit strange
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it seems strange to a foreigner
    Alanya Jinx: did you ever visit Lumphini park?
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe, where is it?
    Alanya Jinx: Bangkok, between Silom Rd and Rama 4
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure, is there a Wat there?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or is it a zoo?
    Alanya Jinx: No it is just a big park, with a couple of lakes. At 6pm the runners stop running for the anthem.
    Alanya Jinx: so what other places have you travelled to?
    Calvino Rabeni: Let me see, about where you are lately - there's a road from Patong ot meuang phuket, over the hill, and on one side a temple with a Taoist symbol on the wall, do you know that place
    Alanya Jinx: I'm not sure, there are a lot of temples here and different ways in and out of patong. dod you have a good experience there?
    Alanya Jinx: did
    Calvino Rabeni: Just curious what is inside, and why it looks more chinese than Thai
    Calvino Rabeni: This talk is giving me the travel itch again
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you speak Thai ?
    Alanya Jinx: Historically Phuket had a huge chinese population, when it was tin mining. It is still very chinese in places
    Alanya Jinx: I speak a little thai, but unfortunatelly not enought
    Alanya Jinx: enough
    Alanya Jinx: so where are you planning on travelling to next?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not fluent, but have enough to get around
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, thai is good on a budget, but I think I'd like to go back to spain, since I've only been to madrid
    Alanya Jinx: I haven't been there, but would like to go. I went to Italy a few years ago and loved it.
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd like to find something to do while there, other than look at tourist attractions
    Calvino Rabeni: although I do recommend the tourist sites in madrid
    Alanya Jinx: do you speak any spanish its a beautiful language
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I can manage - not fast conversation but functional traveler speaking
    Calvino Rabeni: If someone is patient with me, it works :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I ought to go - would you excuse me - it is late
    Calvino Rabeni: but I enjoyed the chat - stop by another time :)
    Alanya Jinx: Hi I was just looking at your photos they are great
    Calvino Rabeni: Each one had some big interest for me
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks
    Alanya Jinx: It is a coincidence, that we have both travelled all over Thailand
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes it makes things interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: I have to make a phone call, but will hang out here if you want to talk thailand or whatever
    Calvino Rabeni: but come back another time :)
    Calvino Rabeni: the meetings are at 1 and 7 am and pm, Second life time
    Alanya Jinx: Yes, see you again. Bye

    Calvino Rabeni: OK, take care, bye

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