Threedee and Adelene discuss money, status, and abstractions

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    [2008/08/15 16:45]  Adelene Dawner: I *do* want to talk about the book I've been reading, though. Have you read Stranger in a Strange Land recently?
    [2008/08/15 16:46]  Threedee Shepherd: I read it long-long ago, and intend to reread it soon,
    [2008/08/15 16:47]  Adelene Dawner: I'm reading it now. The paralells are pretty amazing.
    [2008/08/15 16:47]  Adelene Dawner: Jubal reminds me of you, a bit. :)
    [2008/08/15 16:47]  Threedee Shepherd: parallels to what
    [2008/08/15 16:47]  Adelene Dawner: PaB, mostly.
    [2008/08/15 16:48]  Adelene Dawner: The types of exploration we've been doing.
    [2008/08/15 16:48]  Threedee Shepherd: Yep, I remember it generally in a way consistent with PaB.
    [2008/08/15 16:48]  Adelene Dawner: It's been a few years - several - since I read it. I don't think I really understood it the first time.
    [2008/08/15 16:50]  Threedee Shepherd: My single clearest recollection is that I summarized it by saying, at the time, and since "There are many paths to the *truth*
    [2008/08/15 16:50]  Adelene Dawner nods.
    [2008/08/15 16:50]  Adelene Dawner: Interestingly, Smith's ways-of-knowing in the beginning of the book remind me a lot of my own.
    [2008/08/15 16:51]  Adelene Dawner: Not exact, but paralell.
    [2008/08/15 16:51]  Threedee Shepherd: You will need to refresh my memory about specifics, it was a long while ago.
    [2008/08/15 16:52]  Adelene Dawner: Groking patterns - sensing 'a wrongness' even in things he doesn't really understand - utter cluelessness about certain kinds of abstractions. (I've given up completely on groking money from any angle other than the mathematical, I think.)
    [2008/08/15 16:53]  Adelene Dawner: And the timelessness of it - I get the sense that he percieves time in the way that I do, or, more accurately, in the way I would if I didn't have to worry about it so often.
    [2008/08/15 16:53]  Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm. does it help to say "money provides the ability to do meaningful things?"
    [2008/08/15 16:54]  Threedee Shepherd: I definitely need to reread it
    [2008/08/15 16:54]  Adelene Dawner: Yes, you do...
    [2008/08/15 16:55]  Adelene Dawner: And my problem is with 'money is', not 'money does'. I've got a decent handle on the things that money does, at least at my level of dealing with it... but a lot of those things are pretty incomprehensible to me too, other than on a very superficial level.
    [2008/08/15 16:56]  Threedee Shepherd: examples of " a lot of those things are pretty incomprehensible to me" will help me understand
    [2008/08/15 16:56]  Adelene Dawner: "Why would you waste $60 on a fancy *computer mouse* when there are people in the world starving?", remember? You justified that one, but my assumption that it was unjustified was based on observation.
    [2008/08/15 16:58]  Threedee Shepherd: any other example before I think out loud :)
    [2008/08/15 16:58]  Adelene Dawner: Ummm...
    [2008/08/15 16:59]  Adelene Dawner: People thinking that being rich but too busy to eat dinner with their family is somehow better than being poor but otherwise happy.
    [2008/08/15 16:59]  Adelene Dawner: And people thinking that it's impossible to *be* poor but otherwise happy.
    [2008/08/15 17:00]  Threedee Shepherd: I cannot defend wealth itself as a laudable, even legitimate pursuit. I can say soomething about status-seeking if that isn't obvious
    [2008/08/15 17:01]  Adelene Dawner: ok
    [2008/08/15 17:01]  Adelene Dawner: ...this goes back to 'fear' doesn't it?
    [2008/08/15 17:02]  Adelene Dawner: I just realized that.
    [2008/08/15 17:02]  Adelene Dawner: It's based on the same drive that makes me keep a much better-stocked pantry than I need, with that abstraction standing for needed-things in general, beyond just food.
    [2008/08/15 17:03]  Threedee Shepherd: Is heirarchy status more than fear?
    [2008/08/15 17:04]  Adelene Dawner: I don't know if status is based on more than that, but it does seem to be based on that at least in part. I was sticking to money specifically, though. Better question: Why is having-money so closely tied to status?
    [2008/08/15 17:07]  Threedee Shepherd: It is a strong symbol to NTs or worth/value/status. It has less to do with absolute amount, and more with relative amount. If Joe and I work for the same company at similar jobs and equal lengths of time, and if Joe gets a raise this year of $1 more than I do, I will be angry if I think I am better than Joe. If I get just $1 more there will not be the same anger. I have seen this happen with such trivial amounts (I in this case is example, not *Mark*)
    [2008/08/15 17:08]  Adelene Dawner: ...that's *stupid*.
    [2008/08/15 17:09]  Threedee Shepherd: Of course it is, and I know for a fact it is true for many NTs.
    [2008/08/15 17:10]  Threedee Shepherd: It's an *emotional* thing :(
    [2008/08/15 17:21]  Threedee Shepherd: In non-human primates, you are probably aware that in a monkey troop, every individual knows its status-level in the group, which then relates to the share of the resources it gets. It is likely this evolved as such to avoid constant fighting, which is obviously deleterious. And as I said, LOTS of NT emotional content in language is titration of status.
    [2008/08/15 17:23]  Adelene Dawner: mmm
    [2008/08/15 17:24]  Threedee Shepherd: So, money is not just a medium of exchange, it is a status symbol, in the most basic sense of that phrase *status symbol*
    [2008/08/15 17:24]  Adelene Dawner: So my natural attitude of "money is for spending on interesting things/new experiences/helping friends, not for saving, and tomorrow will take care of itself" is not entirely surprising then, and unlikely to change. Fine by me.
    [2008/08/15 17:25]  Threedee Shepherd: except for the "tomorrow will take care of itself" part; a bit of savings is prudent.
    [2008/08/15 17:26]  Adelene Dawner: Yeah, that part could stand changing, though I still feel more comfortable having my 'savings' be in things instead of cash. Not sure why, there.
    [2008/08/15 17:27]  Threedee Shepherd: Money is fungible, in a way things are not.A decent rule of thumb is to have one-month of income equivalent saved, at least.
    [2008/08/15 17:28]  Adelene Dawner: This is drifting rather quickly into the realm of LoR, and a rather superficial LoR at that. ^^
    [2008/08/15 17:29]  Threedee Shepherd: Emergencies/Shit happens
    [2008/08/15 17:29]  Adelene Dawner notes that 'rule of thumb' is a fancy way of saying 'should', there. ;)
    [2008/08/15 17:29]  Adelene Dawner chuckles and rolls her eyes. "You are very much a carnivore, Mark."
    [2008/08/15 17:30]  Threedee Shepherd: It could mean should, and it could mean here is what others find prudent based on regular life as it happens
    [2008/08/15 17:31]  Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps it has to do with having a family, especially children, and feeling responsibility to contribute to their welfare, especially to be ther in emergencies.
    [2008/08/15 17:31]  Adelene Dawner: Entirely possible. *stretches her wings*

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    Viewing 4 of 4 comments: view all
    Originally written on 11:36, 20 Aug 2008
    /me stokes up her courage to ask: What does "NT" mean?
    Posted 15:41, 9 Apr 2010
    Originally written on 11:44, 20 Aug 2008
    And BTW, some months ago PostSecret included a photo captioned "We are poor. And our kids don't know it." A reader commented "Once I was driving up Pacific Coast Highway on my way to work on a movie set at a mansion on the beach in Malibu. It was a nice day and there was a clunker of a car driving next to me with all the windows open. It was a 'poor' Mexican family. They were all smiling and singing. The father looked kind. The kids looked happy. I saw them and hoped that someday I would have a rich life like that."

    Money ??? rich. No_money ??? poor.
    Posted 15:41, 9 Apr 2010
    Originally written on 18:20, 21 Aug 2008
    I'd guess NT is for NeuroTypical :)
    Posted 15:41, 9 Apr 2010
    Originally written on 10:43, 25 Aug 2008
    Grok - another new word. Thanks. <smile>
    Posted 15:41, 9 Apr 2010
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