The Real Life PaB retreat center scribe project

    Corvi scribed this...

    There are some other ideas in the logs..but these are the logs and ideas from them that most directly related to the retreat center..I may clean it up later and make it a little more punchy-Corvi
    This is a good post to start considering what a retreat is for....

    Adams Rubble: You are right about the modern world but we often can work to simplify things

    Stim Morane: For me, simplifying is something that I view as yet another chore. So of course I tend to duck it. But it is crucial.

    Stim Morane: the idea of a retreat is just to let go of unawareness and incomplete participation in life

    Adams Rubble feels she has been on a six week long retreat at PB

    Stim Morane: there are many things to juggle, it’s hard to find time for what matters most. But this is also why my top priority is not negotiable. I.e., meditation practice.

    Neela Blaisdale: In fact just came back from several days at a yoga center where I only did a little yoga but a lot of meditating

    Neela Blaisdale: Well jusy very peaceful, hadn't signed up for a specific class

    Gaya Ethaniel: was it like a retreat?

    Neela Blaisdale: yes but I structured it myself

    Neela Blaisdale: Mostly silent

    Gaya Ethaniel: how does it feel like to be back?

    Neela Blaisdale: spent yesterday morning before I left doing several hours of walking meditation, had never done that for as long, and it was great

    Neela Blaisdale: Hard to be back very.
    another set of ideas of what one retreats for:

    Wol Euler: has anyone spoken of retreating from the secular world?

    Geo Netizen: monks do not retreat
    Geo Netizen: They engage differently IMHO
    Wol Euler: butthey do not engage 9-to-5, weekend off, pub on friday night, either.
    Stim Morane: I find it important to take people on retreat several times a year, and also for a few days once a month. But this is separate from the issue of being a monk in particular.

    ZEN7MEN Mannonen: :retreating from normal practice is always good for everyone
    Wester Kiranov: BUt how does one choose a retreat?
    Wester Kiranov: I find it hard to find people I trust enough, but I don't want to do it on my own either
    Tarmel Udimo: the not doing I have trouble with that...
    Geo Netizen: Yes, self-directed retreats can be difficult
    Stim Morane: Wester, you can inject something of the main point of a retreat into an hour, or a moment.
    Stim Morane: That brings us back to PaB, among other things.

    Stim Morane: not that I'm discouraging longer retreats ...
    Tarmel Udimo: but retreats are different
    Stim Morane: Yes

    Tarmel Udimo: and perhaps its about allowing being to help you choose (sorry to be a bit ahhhh mystical here)
    ZEN7MEN Mannonen: maybe the physical human life is a retreat itself. experiencing from-time-to-time sOMe illusionary borders :)

    ZEN7MEN Mannonen: to my life experience, retreats/ workshops/ pubs can offer great tools to work on the shape of life/ my being. What all tools have in common (so far) they dont work automatic. At the end, its not what you say, its what you do. Use the tools ~

    Tarmel Udimo: however action requires choice
    Geo Netizen: In that you must chose to act, yes
    Stim Morane: Tarmel, are you hinting that you find choice itself difficult? Or problematical in some way?
    Tarmel Udimo: no more grappling with idea of choiceless choice
    Geo Netizen: lack of freedom to choose?
    Tarmel Udimo: more about if action is the the path then the action needs much support by 'clean' living and thought

    ZEN7MEN Mannonen: what is "clean living" for you, Tarmel, please?
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh knew i should have used a different word....
    Geo Netizen: Healthy ?
    Reyez Dawodu: /sit
    Tarmel Udimo: yes that perhaps work has been done oneself so that the persoanilty filters are not making the choices
    Geo Netizen: Personality filters .... can you say more Tarmel?
    Tarmel Udimo: the part of us that responds often in a patterned way even when we try to react differently - in fact re-act is the key
    ZEN7MEN Mannonen: personal filters = family patterns/ genes/ condition(ing) ?
    Tarmel Udimo: yeah
    Geo Netizen: Sometimes they can help to deal with complexity
    Geo Netizen: but they can also be negative
    ZEN7MEN Mannonen: so, "un-clean" re-act = passive -- "clean" act = active (ideally consciousness)
    Tarmel Udimo: nicley put - this brings us back to retreats places/process where we can see these patterns and perhaps try to untangle them

    Pema Pera: thinking about building a PaB retreat in RL . . . . in Hawaii
    Pema Pera: next door to Pila's
    Pema Pera: It all started exactly one week ago, in the morning session of PaB, March 7, 7 am SLT:
    Pema Pera: [7:46] Pema Pera: what would really be great is a kind of joined monastery, where Christian and Buddhist monks would practice for at least a few years, praying together and mediating together -- say for three years . . .and then ask them on a really personal-experience basis what they saw/felt/learned, the energy, the insights, . . . . [7:47] Geo Netizen raises his hand to volunteer [7:47] Pema Pera: well, Geo, PaB may grow into that, seriously . . . . . [7:56] Pema Pera: how about a PaB monastery? [7:57] Pema Pera: in RL?
    Pema Pera: [8:04] Pema Pera: I actually have been thinking that some day . . . . [8:04] Pema Pera: . . . . we might want to open a RL kind of community for PaB, years from now . . . . [8:04] Pema Pera: as an extention beyond, of course, any particular religion or order or humanism or science -- all ways of knowing [8:04] Geo Netizen nods [8:05] Pema Pera: the first step will be the August retreat [8:05] Pema Pera: everything starts with small steps . . . .
    Pema Pera: talking about monks getting together
    Pema Pera: I was thinking more a few months to forever
    Pema Pera: I can imagine some of us wanting to settle there
    one idea is to use land next door to Pila that he would sell at nearly cost to PaB
    Pila Mulligan: paste these coordinates into a Google map search box: +19.483540 -155.148046
    Pila Mulligan: to see the land on thr Google view
    Pema Pera: a 512 sqm plot would be only $2,500 for land cost . . . . but of course it is not that simple, as Pila will explain; we need room for roads and central facility and gardens
    Pila Mulligan: it was once pristine, it is now more jungle like
    Pila Mulligan: the building codes here seem to allow a central building with any (reaonable) number of surrounding bedrooms structures
    There's more good stuff in this post..but I'll skip a bit
    Pila Mulligan: here's a retreat center that did it full tilt --
    Pila Mulligan: not far from my place
    Pila Mulligan: but this would be the mega-bucks approch
    Pila Mulligan: Pema's idea seems more modest, mininal habitations
    stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm, yes, simple
    Pila Mulligan: I got this land in 2004, a 21 acre parcel, and subdivided it into four 5 acre lots
    Pila Mulligan: the fmaily that was on board to get the lot that is onw vacant backe dout when they got an offer to work as caretakers for a retreat center in New Mexico :)
    Pila Mulligan: the other two lots are owned by freind
    Pila Mulligan: s*
    Pila Mulligan: itis kind of a cooperative community
    Pila Mulligan: shared utility poles and driveway
    stevenaia Michinaga: I saw that
    stevenaia Michinaga: sounds interesting
    Pila Mulligan: I'd sell it Pema or kira or whatever for just a we bit over my actual costs
    Pila Mulligan: wee*
    Pila Mulligan: under $100k for five acres in Hawaii is agood deal
    And more to read below that!!!


    Sylectra Darwin: We need grants!
    Pila Mulligan: :) I hope not
    Pila Mulligan: yes, if we have a plan that attracts funding it affects all the ideas
    stevenaia Michinaga: grants, like how do you move 50 people from around the world to one spot for some time
    Pila Mulligan: yes, in part
    Pila Mulligan: there has been talk of one or several people residing there, as well
    Pila Mulligan: so we have that aspect of a monastic idea as well
    Pila Mulligan: or non-monastic, depending
    stevenaia Michinaga: grins
    Pila Mulligan: but I'm hoping we can let the idea float around for a few months in small discussions and by August have some firm thoughts
    stevenaia Michinaga: Santa Cruz may be quite the hit, I've been there and love the area
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, preference of the group may lead to a starting place
    Pila Mulligan: but, at the risk of sounding pedantic, geeting a feel for the expected use is the first step, I'm sure
    stevenaia Michinaga: or, if need be, a small group should travel the world looking
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: it may not be a Field of Dreams 'build it and they will come'  situation
    Pila Mulligan: for example, suppose the idea ws to have on-going informal sessions, and one or two group retreats a year
    Pila Mulligan: and a place for people to visit whenever
    Pila Mulligan: the number of poeple wanting to do each of those uses would tell us what is needed
    stevenaia Michinaga: it would be interesting to see how many could travel how far and how often
    Pila Mulligan: now i am making that here anyway
    Pila Mulligan: making campsites that is
    Pila Mulligan: so it is close to being real as a Hawaii location
    Pila Mulligan: but Pema was interested in having more than just campsites, and I agree
    Pila Mulligan: he calls them huts, for some reason :)
    Pema Pera: anyway, we can accomodate a 5 acre piece here on our land and start building a SL model of possible RL ways of using your land
    Pila Mulligan: I see
    stevenaia Michinaga: so you are suggesting it be prototyped here?
    Pila Mulligan: ideas for how to use it also I hope
    Pila Mulligan: how are you going to make a jungle in SL?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: that is such a cool thing to do
    stevenaia Michinaga: and how do we chop it down?
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: yes, Steve
    Pema Pera: so Pila, before we confuse everybody, you'd better summarize the idea :)
    Threedee Shepherd: where is 5 acres coming from, the plot in Hawaii is a bit less than 1/2 acre, if I read the numbers right
    Pila Mulligan: I have a 5 acre lot in Hawaii that is in a rainforest - it is dense jungle
    Threedee Shepherd: ahh
    Pila Mulligan: I recently built a house on thelot next to it
    Pila Mulligan: after clearing part of the jungle
    Pila Mulligan: the idea Pema has is to build a retreat center on the five acre lot next door
    stevenaia Michinaga: we should consider only using the forest we cut down
    Pila Mulligan: it is a nice idea, and could work
    Threedee Shepherd: What are the daily climatic impllications of "RAIN"forest?
    Pila Mulligan: but as Steve said, you need to plan what you are gooing to use
    Pila Mulligan: you really cannot just clear five acres
    Pila Mulligan: rain Thredee :)
    Pila Mulligan: mixed with sunshine
    Pila Mulligan: alternating
    Pila Mulligan: plenty of water here
    Threedee Shepherd: alternating on what cycle?
    Pila Mulligan: but no snow
    Pila Mulligan: during summer, 60-70% sun during the day
    Pila Mulligan: during winter, 70-100% rasin some days
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Welcome to the first Wednesday session on the theme of "A real life retreat facility"

    Pila and I are co-guardians for these sessions. Stevania could not be here due to a
    prior family commitment. Pema and Storm round out the initial membership of the Google
    group at where anyone interested is most welcome
    and invited to join.

    If you do not yet have the note card for these theme sessions, please let me know so I
    can give it to you.

    Stevenaia is an architect in real life, and he had some comments about what architect's
    refer to as developing a master plan.

    He said, "the nature of 'place' needs to be thought about. What's included in the short
    term and ideas for the long term, including how far the vision reaches into the future
    and how the facility can be sustained." 

    "Think about a broad concept of what this place will be, even aggregating a listing of
    word-concepts, and a firm image of the plan will slowly materialize.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Perhaps we could talk about what might make it interesting to our fellow PaB'ers to live in a retreat center, or if there is anything that would make that interesting? What would it need to be like to interest?
    Pila Mulligan: Pema, so your original inspiration was the idea of a kind of quasi-monastic residential facilty that could also host retreat sessions
    Pila Mulligan: that is intereting in itself, and Corvi's comments are the next step
    Pema Pera: yes, but perhaps more cumminty like than monastic, somethign in between
    Storm Nordwind: I like the idea of a retreat facility. I am not personally interested in residence. I do think it should be on the US mainland though, simply to make it more accessible and affordable for people to get there.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: So one consideration we should keep in mind is the cost of retreating.
    Qt Core: it shpld help both the silence and the communication between its guests
    Qt Core: yes, place for meditations and places for discussions, not meeting rooms, but just for an example couches, benches
    Pila Mulligan: or, it possible, even a pavaillion like this one in SL :)
    Qt Core: yes, but i'm thinking about smalles groups, 3/5
    Qt Core: not sure, shorter periods around major holidays, longer during the rest of the year (if it is a stable thing)
    Pema Pera: the more I think about it now, the more I see that permanent residence is an important part of the equation
    Qt Core: if it would pe a permanent thing at leas some should be there all year round to manage it
    Pema Pera: *if* enough people would be there permanently, you could imagine using the rest of the place for both shorter and longer periods, as the case may be
    Pila Mulligan: the residence distinction is essential to the planning
    Pema Pera: if there would *not* be permanent residence, it only would pay to have significantly longer retreats
    Storm Nordwind: All places need upkeep too, and the residents could do that
    Pila Mulligan: caretaking and meditating :)
    Wester Kiranov: maybe even more, like growing our own food...
    Pema Pera: so perhaps a "community" would be a central piece of the plan

    Qt Core: there are PaBers with 30 and more years of meditation experience
    Qt Core: part of the money needed for it can come from meditation lessons
    Pema Pera: Actually, with current internet-mediated job opportunities, people living permanently (or say, half of the year) at the center could still work and have a regular income. So not only for people retiring.
    Pila Mulligan: so the residents oculd also teach and practice with the community
    Storm Nordwind: Make Pabbist beer  ((I KNOW this was a joke..but it was sooo bad/good a pun,  I had to stick it in here!-Corvi))
    Wester Kiranov: So, we need a minimum amount of permanent residents, and a certain minimum of otherwise active supporters
    Pema Pera: One compromise could occur if we can find a relatively cheap plot of land that is relatively big and that could be bought by just 2 or 3 people with room to grow
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but there are two bits to this discussion
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: one is this one, of practical considerations.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and the other is a dreaming one, considering ideas and possibilities.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: whether or not we begin this project soon...part of the idea is to consider what could be.

    I recommend reading this one...there are alot of ideas here about how to buy something affordable and make it work! 
    Pila Mulligan: in fact, this is the obvious approach for a practical-minded group wanting a retreat facility -- buy low
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually, I think it would be interesting to have an inexpensive big old house near (1 Hr) a major city. Then one could combine PaB and urban attracti0ons during a trip.
    Threedee Shepherd: In fact, we should look into whether there are current retreat centers for sale now.
    Pila Mulligan: as several people pointed out, many PaB people would eb interested, but could afford only so much time and cost for retreats

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: time share seems like a smart idea for some.

    Threedee Shepherd: I am thinking workshops as well as Buddhist-style retreat, too.
    Mickorod Renard: personaly, i would say a retreat would be like a second home,,offering security and comfort with familiar surroundings and friends
    Pila Mulligan: [13:40] Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think one thing that a retreat center would do would be allow us a place to go when we are stuck. [13:40] ... [13:41] Wol Euler: if that is a goal, then it has to be "central" in terms of accessibility
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