2009.07.29 13:00 - M&Mptiness or How Good Emptiness is?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

    Bertram Jacobus: hello fefonz ! :-)
    Fefonz Quan: hello Bertram!
    Bertram Jacobus: hello sophia s :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Bertram, Hi Fefonz :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Sophia!
    Bertram Jacobus: did i say hi late enough ? were you in chat range already sophis s ? :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no, I heard you :)
    Bertram Jacobus: "okay" ... :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Gaya,. Hi Eliza :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hey gaya and eliza ! :-)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Gaya, Eliza :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi SophiaSharon, Bertram, Gaya, Fef :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is all thrown of by Gaya sitting over there hahaha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: off*
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh ... what did I do?
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Sophia1
    Eliza Madrigal: Let's try that again :) Hah
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sophia
    Bertram Jacobus: hello sophia :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh nothing, I'm used to see you sit on my right :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't know what it seemed to everyone here but I was trapped in a tree of some sort to my vision
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah yes :) My usual seat but Fefonz likes a symmetry.
    Bertram Jacobus: i see a perfect growing symmetry ... (?) :-)
    sophia Placebo: Hi everyone :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi sophia :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes true
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Wow Sophia, yet another transformation! :D
    Fefonz Quan: there goes the chance for perferct circular summetry :)
    sophia Placebo: im a shape shifter
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: bad me bad ... :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes you are! :))
    sophia Placebo: where should i sit ?
    Fefonz Quan: where you like, obviously ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: itֲ´s like th buddhstic teaching about impermanence ... :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i dont know why im giggling right now but i am :))
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm infected now :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Now we look as though Fef needs to give a talk :)
    sophia Placebo: yes
    Fefonz Quan: as long as you are not googling we are fine :)
    Eliza Madrigal: We can't google and giggle at the same time?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: well, i do that too when im here, sometimes :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: both
    SophiaSharon Larnia: omg
    Bertram Jacobus: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: Now we wait for whoever is supposed to sit there
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok now Shyama will fix this circle then :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Shyama :)
    sophia Placebo: hi shayama
    Bertram Jacobus: hy shayama ! :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Shyama! :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Shyama
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (hi Shyama)
    Eliza Madrigal watches Shyama closely
    Eliza Madrigal: Yay!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (holds her breath)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hahah
    Bertram Jacobus: but fef took a VERY strange seat now ! :o)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and why are we floating when we move pillows?
    Fefonz Quan: too much meditation, what can i say
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: did i take wrong seat ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ahhh so that is what happens
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh no Shyama!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: your perfect
    Eliza Madrigal: Your seat was just right. Sophia is being a rebel :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    SophiaSharon Larnia: moi?
    sophia Placebo: lol iam
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    --BELL--
    Shyama Sheryffe: its good to rebel sometimes
    Shyama Sheryffe: oops
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (guffaws)
    Eliza Madrigal laughs hysterically
    Gaya Ethaniel quietly steals a look on Eliza going hysterical.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: "om"
    Eliza Madrigal notices gaya's quiet stare
    sophia Placebo: now we look a bit natural
    Gaya Ethaniel watches her mind ... Eliza ... her mind ... heheheh
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahha\
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm in your mind Gaya? Where did I come from? Did you notice?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: listens attentively
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks ... in my mind or projected to my mind ... hm
    Bertram Jacobus: i would like to ask again - sry, i forget sometimes : do you all practise the 9 second method ? always ? sometimes ? you did and now not anymore ? or how ? because my first impressions with it are ... interesting ... hm
    Gaya Ethaniel: Mum!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Wol
    Eliza Madrigal giggles embarrassedly
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol!!
    Bertram Jacobus: hi wol :-)
    Wol Euler: hello everyone
    sophia Placebo: hi wol
    Wol Euler: what a fascinating seating arrangement :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Good to see you!
    Fefonz Quan: Heya Wol!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: can you say more Bert?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - wol notices it. a great view
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles at Wol.
    Eliza Madrigal nearly always practices the 9/90 seconds except when the PaB subject is rebellion
    SophiaSharon Larnia: looks away
    Bertram Jacobus: itֲ´s difficult, there are many aspects and therefore heavy to describe, but
    Fefonz Quan: start wioth the light ones :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i say the most working aspect until now : i notice how much bad things i do and think ...
    Fefonz Quan: in 9 sec?
    Bertram Jacobus: i notice that then
    Bertram Jacobus: what was just before
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ohh is that what it does then Wol? lol
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    sophia Placebo: intersting bert
    Shyama Sheryffe: isnt that good
    Gaya Ethaniel: oops
    SophiaSharon Larnia: do you mean distractions Bertram??
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahaha'
    Bertram Jacobus: ups. i donֲ´t sit on my pillow - do you see me not sitting, too ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: likes it
    sophia Placebo: yes bet ^^
    Wol Euler: yes. bert. you are standing in it.
    Wol Euler: try to stand and sit again
    Fefonz Quan: you a sitting above your pillow:)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i see him sitting on it, thats why i kept getting up and sitting again
    Shyama Sheryffe: levitating..its nice
    Fefonz Quan: like a little edgar hover :)
    Bertram Jacobus: no sophia - or ... donֲ´t know : i see, what was going on especially ... just when the bell rang, before ...
    Wol Euler: better :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. ty
    Bertram Jacobus: right. i also saw the hover thing lol
    SophiaSharon Larnia: are you expecting to see these things Bertram
    sophia Placebo: what about the good things bert ?
    Bertram Jacobus: i once read a nice book "autobiography from a yogi" - there was a man described, to whom it was always embarassing when he levitated ... i like that :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: good things ! there are so few ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and i did not expect anything i hope
    Fefonz Quan: brb
    Fefonz Quan: am back
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha
    Shyama Sheryffe: good thing is that u noticed u were thinking bad things
    sophia Placebo: thats fast
    Eliza Madrigal: Flash! Ahahh
    sophia Placebo: good point shayama
    Bertram Jacobus: yes, but itֲ´s a bit disconcerting
    SophiaSharon Larnia: emptiness is hard to look at
    Fefonz Quan: (so many attention due to an unclicked enter :)
    sophia Placebo: disconcerting ?
    Fefonz Quan: -"-
    Bertram Jacobus: i found the word in the dictionary - is it wrong ? could say uncomfortable, too ... ;-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: good word
    Bertram Jacobus: which of both ? :-)
    Fefonz Quan: why is it disconcerning?
    Fefonz Quan: or disconcerting i guess
    Bertram Jacobus: because ... so many experiences until now said, that my behaviour would be at least a nice try not to be TO bad ...
    Fefonz Quan: i guess you are not that bad, these are just the thoughts that you pay attention to now.
    --BELL--
    sophia Placebo: ok so you are proven to be bad !
    Fefonz Quan: ( alittle similar to someone that begins going to a Gym, and learn how many weak muscles can hurt at once)
    Fefonz Quan: learns*
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice example Fef
    sophia Placebo: good at least you know you are one , no need for further investigations about that issue
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: Beertram, that statement needs to be made more carefully.
    Bertram Jacobus: which one and how please wol ?
    Fefonz Quan liked the Beertram :)
    Wol Euler: To say "I am bad" is a judgement on your future, and an excuse for your mistakes.
    Wol Euler: say rather "that thing I did was bad"
    Wol Euler: because you ar free not to do it again.
    sophia Placebo: im half jocking btw bert ,most of the time
    Bertram Jacobus: all okay here :-)
    Fefonz Quan: (which makes you mostly serious Sophia:)
    sophia Placebo: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (grins)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes it is a release to look at everything we've done and can't get back, and really realize we can't, so stop trying to?
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: say goodbye to it, and move on
    Fefonz Quan nods too
    Wol Euler: let yourself let it go.
    Bertram Jacobus: i agree
    sophia Placebo: thats reminds me of a question i thought about a few years back :could poeple be born bad ?
    Wol Euler: my favourite self-encouragement on this line is: "You made a silly mistake yesterday, but you can make newer and better ones today"
    Fefonz Quan: in fact to 'improve' in teh future, all you can work with is now, not the past
    sophia Placebo: genetics and so on things
    Fefonz Quan: yep! (to Wol) :0
    Gaya Ethaniel nods nods.
    Gaya Ethaniel: We are making past and future now.
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Shyama Sheryffe: what is bad ?
    sophia Placebo nods
    Fefonz Quan: and Bert, usualy people have bad and good inside them mutualy
    Wol Euler: Sophia, I don't know, but my feeling is "no", that everyone has the potential to choose to be good (phrasing it carefully)
    Bertram Jacobus: natural born killers may have taken this idea, too ? ... i donֲ´t know the film very good, but the title ...
    Fefonz Quan: taking Oliver Ston's film to present reality is a little far fetched
    Fefonz Quan: films*
    Gaya Ethaniel: Oliver Stone isn't very good at being accurate historically or scientifically I'd say based on what I've seen so far.
    Eliza Madrigal: That question (not necessarily the film) is one always grapped with though
    Fefonz Quan: though i can think of a reaseach with seperated twins to try and evaluate those things
    Fefonz Quan: research*
    SophiaSharon Larnia: those types of films do address an idea people have or explore a fear
    Bertram Jacobus: i have impressions of the "basic good" in humans ...
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Bertram Jacobus: and so i think, getting born bad may be not possible.
    Shyama Sheryffe: we all r born i different conditions and our soul development level is different
    sophia Placebo: what is the basic good in humans?
    Eliza Madrigal: One can be born into very blind circumstances with very severe limitations
    Fefonz Quan: infact, it is much more convenient to believe people are born bad, because: a) it might make one 'different' from teh bad guys , and b) it takes the responsibility off you
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: agrees
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Wol Euler: and also off them.
    Wol Euler: "they can't help it"
    sophia Placebo: yes cause im bad
    Bertram Jacobus: there are so many words for it. did it occure here today alraedy ? "emptiness" for example ... is the good, the absolute, the not to be expressed ... and many titles more - to me
    Gaya Ethaniel: Dano Sonnex was born into a family involved in crime over many generations in London [he murdered two French students recently]. I'd say in his case, it was both genes and environment.
    Fefonz Quan: didn't get your last point Bert
    Fefonz Quan: (sorry)
    Gaya Ethaniel: But who knows ... I can't say what he would have become if he grew up in other settings.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i dont take emptiness that way, the propensity for humans to act 'badly' isnt the same to me
    Shyama Sheryffe: if one is born autist, he doesnt have much choice
    Bertram Jacobus: sophia had asked what the godd in humans were fef and i try to give a comment to that -
    Bertram Jacobus: good
    Fefonz Quan: why does 'good' need emptiness?
    Bertram Jacobus: tried *
    Bertram Jacobus: it does not need it, but one could call emptiness good i think
    Fefonz Quan: i see that very differently.
    Bertram Jacobus: i can imagine ;-)
    Fefonz Quan: sure, one could call anything anyway he likes :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Personally though I think nurture places a bigger role than genes ...
    Wol Euler: agreed
    Gaya Ethaniel: Both internal and exteral nurturing.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: i think that too at the moment gaya
    Fefonz Quan: agree with gaya too
    Gaya Ethaniel: Internal as in cultivating oneself by oneself*
    --BELL--
    Eliza Madrigal seed nature nurture a little like hard drive/software
    Eliza Madrigal: *sees
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks ... so can't overcome/reach beyond the hardware however one tries?
    Eliza Madrigal: I wouldn't say that Gaya... maybe that's the 'a little' qualification
    Fefonz Quan: Though we should pay attention that the nurturing/environment approach can show that 'good' can also turn bad in circumstances
    sophia Placebo: i guess bert , even though that amount og basic good in humans is few , but that few good can enrich your life if you allow it to
    Bertram Jacobus: yes sophia. a very nice hint.
    Fefonz Quan: hence 'naturally born angels' is also not realistic
    Gaya Ethaniel: Do you think going from good to bad is easier?
    Fefonz Quan: oh, yeah
    Gaya Ethaniel guffaws.
    sophia Placebo: i guess gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fefonz Quan: strong teh dark side is
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or the herd mentality :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and ... fef - may i perhaps try to say, why i think, emptiness could also called "good" ? but it would be a bit longer explanation. donֲ´t know, wheather that is okay ... hm - so the question goes to the others too ...
    Wol Euler: it seems to me that going bad is often the easy, lazy, soft option.
    Fefonz Quan nods to Wol
    Fefonz Quan: would like to hear that Bert
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello cheesedoodle :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cheesedoodle!
    Bertram Jacobus: hello cheesedoodle :-)
    sophia Placebo: hi cheesdooodle
    cheesedoodle Braveheart: hi everyone
    Wol Euler: hello CD
    Fefonz Quan: hello cheesedoodle!
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi cheese
    Eliza Madrigal smiles widely
    SophiaSharon Larnia: 'good' and 'bad' are evaluations, judgements, and are relative, emptiness is more in an absolute catagory
    Fefonz Quan: have you ever been here before?
    cheesedoodle Braveheart: what is this?
    cheesedoodle Braveheart: im new
    Eliza Madrigal nods to SophiaSharon
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi cheesedoodle :)
    cheesedoodle Braveheart: hi sophia
    cheesedoodle Braveheart: what is this?
    Wol Euler wonders who is GoC today?
    sophia Placebo: among all lenghthy names i met in sl , your name is real fun to spell it complete cheesedoodle
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hahaha
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sorry ... I'm falling off my chair laughing at cheesedoodle's name ... what a name!
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, yes. Fun to write out
    Wol Euler: CD, this is a meeting of a meditation and discussion group called Play as Beging
    Bertram Jacobus: okay - then i would like to start with the question if you think that emptiness is in the end the real basic of reality, including all phenomena fef ?
    Wol Euler: *Being
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (wants some cheesedoodles now)
    cheesedoodle Braveheart: lol
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh cheesedoodle is a manufactured food?
    Wol Euler: I'll give you an introduction in IM so we don't disturb the others
    Gaya Ethaniel: US?
    Eliza Madrigal thinks of the small cheesedoodle handprints her kids left on the stairway when they were little
    Fefonz Quan: Cheesed, we are a group that gather here a few times a day, and discuss ways to see reality, experience, and other issues.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: uh oh Eliza!
    Fefonz Quan: ((oh, thanks Wol)
    cheesedoodle Braveheart: so,,,
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... it's not that funny in that case. It's a food name.
    Eliza Madrigal: Its a funny food, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Like Cheddar Ethaniel :)
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    cheesedoodle Braveheart: well nice meeting u all but i am leaving
    Eliza Madrigal: No... cheesedoodles are mostly empty
    Fefonz Quan: Bert, it is hard to answer your question
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have fun cheesedoodle :)
    Wol Euler: lol @ֲ elizha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ncice to see you ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: ;-)
    Wol Euler: truer than you knew
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... really? me Googles 'cheesedoodle'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: umm if you cant find that, try cheese curl
    SophiaSharon Larnia: renewing the 9 sec stops, instead of thinking emptiness, ive been thinking of fullness
    Fefonz Quan: cause i approach emptiness as idea that has many ways to experience, and i am still not sure totally what it is
    SophiaSharon Larnia: since i felt sucked into the votex :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: vortex*
    Gaya Ethaniel: It melts, kind of fizz, when you pop in mouth?
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice SophiaSharon...you gave yourself a bit of weightiness?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hahha
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah sorry ... I'm going on about cheesedoodle.
    Fefonz Quan: M&Mptiness
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, yes generally disappears
    Shyama Sheryffe: can u "know" emptiness ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe Fef
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah I know I had something similar before :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i see fef - but isnֲ´t the taught idea that emptiness would be that ? the ultimate reality ? or - for sure, not to be expressed ever in a perfect way
    SophiaSharon Larnia: we use phases like, being full of joy, and fullness of self, i never looked at it before
    Eliza Madrigal: A good question Shyama. I think not really with 'intellect'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (wants m&M's now thanks a lot)
    Fefonz Quan: as i see it, and surely not to say experienced it, it is a character of reality, but more like the areana where things arise
    Eliza Madrigal giggles at SophiaSharon
    Fefonz Quan: (SophShar: think of chocolate ice cream instead! that will help)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh god
    Fefonz Quan: see! it did :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: drools on her keyboard
    Wol Euler: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: hot pepper, handful in mouth?)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: our illusions are full
    Gaya Ethaniel: Had a long day ... time to log off. Good day/night all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Gaya :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not sur of what, but very very full
    Fefonz Quan: good night Gaya!
    Shyama Sheryffe: nite gaya
    sophia Placebo: bye gaya
    Bertram Jacobus: for me the fact that empty space is always more then material in makrokosm as well as in microcosm is a approach for a kind of understanding ... that, if one looks more and more precise, in the end emptiness is "to be seen" or experienced. i find it even logically after all we know already, also regarding all hese illusionary aspects of being on the surface
    Gaya Ethaniel waves. See you soon.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Gaya :)
    Bertram Jacobus: bye gaya have a nice nite
    Wol Euler: bye gaya
    --BELL--
    Fefonz Quan: that sounds like an interesting definition Bert.
    Wol Euler: oh, I must run, it's time for the Kira Team meeting.
    Fefonz Quan: emtiness is Being seen
    Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care, be happy
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Wol :) Nice to see you!
    sophia Placebo: bye wol
    Bertram Jacobus: bye wol
    Fefonz Quan: (the second one Wol?)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it seems to me that empty space in both is more 'not known' that the elements that make up matter
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye wol
    Eliza Madrigal: Bertram, you might like to read the theme sessions between Three, Pema, and Eos on "Knowledge"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (sorry bell)
    Bertram Jacobus: okay eliza
    Fefonz Quan: or the 'Time, Sapce, Knowledge' book itself
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and matter is questionable
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, though I had that book for a while before I felt I was actually reading it :)
    Bertram Jacobus: would be so nice if it were also to get in german language ! ...
    Fefonz Quan: yep, i am reading it for 7 months now...
    Eliza Madrigal: questionable..interesting way of putting that SOphiaSharon :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Still, worth taking time with for sure
    Eliza Madrigal laughs about 'taking time'...odd picture
    sophia Placebo: :))
    sophia Placebo: cant imagine it
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fefonz Quan: Bert, but if we go back to the last descriptions you mentioned,
    Bertram Jacobus: it exists in german i just found :-9
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wow
    Fefonz Quan: how do you connect that to 'god'?
    Fefonz Quan: good* SOORY
    Bertram Jacobus: okay - i have to begin at another point for that question fef :
    Fefonz Quan: (phrased a totally different question :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (yes)
    Bertram Jacobus: once i noticed, that good is when we feel comfortable and bad when we do not
    sophia Placebo eyes are closing ,night all
    Bertram Jacobus: and the real coming together of wish and reality makes that feeling, the good one
    Eliza Madrigal: Night sophia :) Sleep well
    Fefonz Quan: nite Sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so is something 'bad' if someone is totally comfortable with it?
    Bertram Jacobus: and the bad feeling is when these points donֲ´t fit together : wish and reality
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye sophia :)
    sophia Placebo: i would belive me Eliza :))
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: then in took this principle in general and that was the idea : being or coming really together is good, being seperated bad
    Fefonz Quan: that sounds more like 'pleasant/unpleasant'
    Eliza Madrigal: SophiaSharon, that would be a fun conversation to have... the 'karma PaB talk" hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: mmhmm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (giggles)
    Bertram Jacobus: the last conclusion regarding to that is then : when all is connected or only one left, unity, emptiness, how ever you want to call it - that must be the best state of being and feeling
    Bertram Jacobus: thatֲ´s all.
    Fefonz Quan: maybe, but as you described it, good is when your desires are fulfilled
    Bertram Jacobus: yes, in such an "end" or "state" there are no more wishes left
    Eliza Madrigal: When we see things as they are
    Fefonz Quan: so i don't see how this is related to your previous description of good
    Eliza Madrigal gasps at the time. I've been 'bad' today... online much! :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol Eliza
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Eliza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye guys :) Have wonderful days and evenings :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: if that is best state, why r we here
    Shyama Sheryffe: bye eliza
    Bertram Jacobus: ehm - when good is being together and emptiness is the basic of all and not seperated from anything - then emptiness should be good, comfortable, a great feeling - at least seen from outside
    Fefonz Quan: yes, but you jumped from 'good is desires fulfilled) to good is being together, that's what i didint; understnad
    Bertram Jacobus: that is th question i didnֲ´t find the answer yet shayama !
    Shyama Sheryffe: can emptiness be a goal to reach ?
    Shyama Sheryffe: good and bad r connected to goals
    Fefonz Quan: and in thi s'all together' Bert, the natural born killers still kill others, it is part of the wohole
    Fefonz Quan nods to Shyama
    Bertram Jacobus: ah fef - desire is being separated, but a fullfilled desire is unified , so a fullfilled desire brings the end of feeling bad and feeling good on the other hand -
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i just find it hard to describe emptiness as 'all desires are fulfilled', but more the other way around - 'all desires are gone, since you/your ego don't need them anymore'
    Bertram Jacobus: yes fef, but these may be the two areas : the relative one and the absolute one. may be therefore the buddha should have been shouted spontaneously at his enlightenment : all IS already enlightend ! (?) ...
    --BELL--
    Fefonz Quan: (did he shouted?)
    Bertram Jacobus: and not so lang ago a monk told me shayama - ultimate goals would never be reached
    Bertram Jacobus: i see what you mean fef and i think about the fact if both aspects - no needs anymore and some needs to be reached may be parts of paths ...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (am off to get some cheesedoodles, M&M's and ice cream, and think about this)
    Fefonz Quan: Bert, as i see it, the 'bliss' you attach to emptiness has more with changing our definitions of good and bad, than being totally good according to our definitions now
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all <waves/>
    Fefonz Quan: Bye SophiaSharon
    Shyama Sheryffe: bye sophia
    Bertram Jacobus: she was too fast for me ...
    Bertram Jacobus: or i too slow for her ...
    Fefonz Quan: though if you would have written it it would appear in the log anyhow ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: ah yes
    Bertram Jacobus: then i can greet her even although she is away already ! great new possibilities with the net ... ;-)
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: but with this bliss aspect - many people ask, wheather that would be a dumb state which one reaches when emptiness ( = enlightenment ?) would be reached ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and all sources denie that
    Shyama Sheryffe: yawns...godnight guys..
    Bertram Jacobus: deny
    Bertram Jacobus: good night shayama
    Fefonz Quan: night Shyama
    Fefonz Quan: that what brings me to my first problem with the 'emptiness == good/bliss'
    Fefonz Quan: that reality has the good and bad in it, so expecting some removal to a 'heavenly state' that includes only one of them sounds unrealistic to me
    Fefonz Quan: .
    Bertram Jacobus: i have the impression, its another kind of good which could be reached "there" ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and again - may be i could aks like plato did :
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i hope so too :)
    Bertram Jacobus: donֲ´t you agree, thet, if wish and reality come together, a good feeling appers ?
    Fefonz Quan: totally agree with that. that's why we suffer, cause wishes can never all be fulfilled
    Fefonz Quan: if you wait for that - it will be a long one
    Bertram Jacobus: i agree to that, too - but : so when more and more comes together and that may be also througout the minimizing of wishes later for example, shouldnֲ´t this joy happen then, too ?
    Fefonz Quan: (not to mention you then makes your happiness totally dependant of things that are happening or not)
    Bertram Jacobus: sorry : shouldnֲ´t then joy occure too that should be -
    Fefonz Quan: more and more come together is one thing, less wishes is another thing.
    Bertram Jacobus: but the y have something in common :
    Fefonz Quan: first - outside reality dependant
    Fefonz Quan: second - maybe not
    Bertram Jacobus: you said it before : pain comes from being seperated
    --BELL--
    Fefonz Quan: (i didn't say that)
    Fefonz Quan: pain can come from a stone falling on your leg
    Fefonz Quan: (or someone close dies on you)
    Bertram Jacobus: i meant this from your words : that's why we suffer, cause wishes can never all be fulfilled
    Bertram Jacobus: there is a seperation - wishes and fullfillment are not together
    Fefonz Quan: i can wish for a car, where does the seperation comes in?
    Bertram Jacobus: same with the stone : the wish of being healthy is not fullfilled
    Fefonz Quan: ah, that is a very linguistic way to say it :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and even easier to see when the beloved person dies : one gets seperated very radical
    Fefonz Quan: you can also say that i can become seperate from my pain - which sounds great to me
    Bertram Jacobus: but i mean the deeper wish always the deepest ones : to be happy
    Bertram Jacobus: not only the surfaces
    Fefonz Quan: that's why i found the 'seperation' issue very disturbing to start with - it is a logical term that can be used both ways
    Bertram Jacobus: but only on the surfaces - in the end the wish for happyness is all including
    Fefonz Quan: wish for happiness is universal i believe too, just find it hard to connect it to seperation
    Fefonz Quan: (or non-seperation)
    Fefonz Quan: and different people would define happines differently
    Fefonz Quan: (some with ss at the end:)
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. thats easy ! thats the same wish as to want to have something only with a negative mark in front : wanting not to have someting. in buddhas teachings that is for example not to be together with people one does not like
    Bertram Jacobus: but sorry if i may be here a bit penetrant (?) sorry please : that is only aon the surfaces with these differences ... basically happyness is a feeling we all share
    Fefonz Quan: sure, but it can come from many reasons. some are happy to be left alone sometimes
    Bertram Jacobus: and i agree (as with much you say) : it is different on the surfaces ! :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: absolutely
    Bertram Jacobus: and so it seems to be neccessairy to fullfill fisrt some needs. then the letting go may be possible , not before ...
    Fefonz Quan: and i find no meaning for the saying 'my wish to be happy was fulfilled'
    Fefonz Quan: surely, if one doesn't have food, talking about happiness is a little awkward
    Fefonz Quan: but start teh path with trying to fulfill desires, and then expect for our desires will be gone, sound to me like the wrong direction
    Fefonz Quan: sounds*
    Bertram Jacobus: my impression is that that simply occures ... but itֲ´s only an impression from all i heard until now and may be glimpses of experiences ... or iֲ´m wrong, may be too. at the moment, only life quality so to be say seems to be a safe measurement to me ...
    Fefonz Quan: many of teh most rich, successful people on the lanet, whos all apparent wishes came true, are the most miserable ones
    Fefonz Quan: planet*
    Bertram Jacobus: may be i expressed not all in a good way , but - i think for example about the aspects from which is said, they would be nessecairy to practise - they must be existant . otherwise meditation is not possible. you know how i mean that in this context ?
    Fefonz Quan: didn't get what you meant here: 'i think for example about the aspects from which is said, they would be nessecairy to practise - they must be existant'
    --BELL--
    Bertram Jacobus: for example being free from some heavy mental deseases, which would meditation make totally impossible
    Fefonz Quan: so you meant that there are severe circumstances where one can't practice?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. when you are not an already higher developed being, for example the danger of dieing from hunger or thurst woult hinder you from any spiritual practise . to choose this essential example.
    Fefonz Quan: agreed. and?
    Bertram Jacobus: so you first hav eto fullfill some needs ...
    Fefonz Quan: sure, we agreed that some very basic needs, like food, place to sleep, and not being chewed by a big fairy creature are essential :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ! and that could be your wishes which have to be fullfilled for example first. that is what i meant essentially -
    Fefonz Quan: but the higher levels ar more interesting to me. very fortunately, most of us have those conditions
    Fefonz Quan: (basic) conditions. and i dont define physical necesity as desire
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. there we have may be a source of our misunderstanding :-)
    Fefonz Quan: dogs have all that too. Not sure they get together do discuss emptiness
    Bertram Jacobus: thinking ...
    Fefonz Quan: infact, if people were satisfied with basic food, bed and shelter, and cloths, they might be much more happy to start with.
    Bertram Jacobus: to start with ? whith what please ? or donֲ´t i understand something here ? *fear* ...
    Fefonz Quan: i believe what makes us suffer lies in very different levels.
    Bertram Jacobus: but the buddha named the basic cuase : greed
    Fefonz Quan: you can put a point after 'happy' in that sentence to make it simpler
    Bertram Jacobus: ok
    Fefonz Quan: greed, craving, attachement, etc. does it contradicts what we said here?
    Fefonz Quan: greed goes far beyond basic needs
    Bertram Jacobus: no. i only tried to point out the basic beside your metioning the variosities ...
    Fefonz Quan listens
    Bertram Jacobus: no. already done : greed :o)
    --BELL--
    Bertram Jacobus: iֲ´m really pleased that you gave or give me so much time to talk - and that with my bad english ...
    Fefonz Quan: my pleasure :)
    Fefonz Quan: though i have a feeling we didn't quite got to understand each other :)
    Bertram Jacobus: itֲ´s not so easy for me because english is not the first language i learned ...
    Bertram Jacobus: may be i have to learn a bit more ...
    Fefonz Quan: me neither...
    Bertram Jacobus: but ... i have some impressions from our different let me call them points
    Bertram Jacobus: and may be it could be interesting, for me for sure to find the sythesis from these. but that is too much for one evenig is my impression
    Fefonz Quan: i guess. So we can continue some other time, many PaB sessions to go :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes fef. ty again for your patience
    Bertram Jacobus: and kindness
    Fefonz Quan: See you next time Bert, thanks for teh talk
    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
    Bertram Jacobus: thank you too have a very nice time please
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