2009.11.13 07:00 - Subtlety, Scrutiny, & the Sillyness of Control

    Table of contents
    No headers

    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, who was joined by Quen, Zen, and Yakuzza. Quen and I discussed scrutiny and learning, then Zen brought in the subject of control... 

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Quen!
    quen Oh: hi Eliza :-)
    quen Oh: how are you?
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: You?
    quen Oh: nice to see you too
    quen Oh: fine, very busy but, nice things
    Eliza Madrigal: The weather is gorgeous here in Miami today, just came from a long walk
    quen Oh: just got home and realised it was pab time
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, fun projects?
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    quen Oh: wow sounds nice
    quen Oh: yes, nice projects and teaching too
    quen Oh: and you?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, so you enjoy teaching then?
    quen Oh: anything new?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm.. all new, every day. haha
    quen Oh: yes, it is rewarding and inspiring to see people learn and them feeling proud with what they achieved
    Eliza Madrigal: yes definitely
    Eliza Madrigal: For the first time in a long time I'm not working with children other than my own
    quen Oh: so how are things in PaB?
    quen Oh: ah hehe interesting
    quen Oh: what do you do with the children (not your own_
    quen Oh: )?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I think well. :) Of course I feel energized, having been at the mini-retreat last weekend...
    quen Oh: ah how was that??
    Eliza Madrigal: but I think in general PaB feels energized.
    Eliza Madrigal: It was really nice... really comfortable
    quen Oh: what did you do at the mini-retreat? what did you like most?
    Eliza Madrigal: And as for the kids, normally working with kids who struggle to be able to write essays...to open up, trust their voices
    quen Oh: ah nice
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes basic reading skills... the main thing is the love
    Eliza Madrigal: They are so discouraged most of the time
    Eliza Madrigal: and have to be allowed to enjoy the process of expression, etc. Not easy


    Eliza Madrigal: Hm... and for the mini-retreat... I liked a Being Seeing excercize most I think... walking around the pond...
    Eliza Madrigal: and just being there...soaking everyone's company up
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Do you think you might like to attend a retreat at some point?
    quen Oh: I would, for instance when it would be in europe ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Btw, here is a page Eos created...
    Eliza Madrigal: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Retrea...rinceton%2c_NJ
    Eliza Madrigal nods, understandable. I think quite a few European retreaters are trying to make Malta
    quen Oh: nice pics
    Eliza Madrigal: It was lovely
    quen Oh: Malta??
    quen Oh: I am rather out of the loop I am afraid
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes!... perhaps I should have given you the main page, yes you must be!
    quen Oh: I did very much like meeting Pema in may this year though
    Eliza Madrigal: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Retreats/2010-01_Malta
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes?
    Eliza Madrigal: He's a warm and comforting presence, in RL as well as SL.
    quen Oh: ah nice initiative, will try and see if my teaching schedule permits me to join it..
    quen Oh: yes indeed
    quen Oh: ;-) and even more than a presence
    quen Oh: nice to read what you are doing with the children
    quen Oh: writing seems very difficult for some of them



    Eliza Madrigal: :) Yes, writing can be difficult especially when a child feels scrutinized
    quen Oh: must be terrible, as the world seems to get more and more verbal.. in this country they even started to teach maths in primary school by little stories... feeding some myth that too much numbers and abstract symbols will be seen as more dificult, nothing to do with normal life and demotivating
    quen Oh nods
    Eliza Madrigal: What a strange thing that seems... although I must admit that's one tactic I took with one of my daughters when little...
    Eliza Madrigal: buying her books that read like fiction, about math :)
    quen Oh: that will work for the readers ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: It was one angle among many though
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    quen Oh: but for the not very verbally gifted or interested it means they don't get a rest to forget this discomfort
    quen Oh: and even makes what would normally be their rescue more difficult
    Eliza Madrigal: hah, yes definitely... that is where my son would fall
    quen Oh smiles
    quen Oh: how old are they?
    Eliza Madrigal: nearly 11, 14, 17
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    quen Oh: I remember that playing shop was a good way to learn to do simple math
    Zen Arado: Hi Eliza, Quwn
    quen Oh: with coins and papers
    Eliza Madrigal nods... yes lots of that when they were small :) Nice memories
    quen Oh: lol even you can make ridiculous money (3 and 7 dollar bills and so)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: All well Zen?
    quen Oh: hello Zen!
    quen Oh: Nice to meet you
    Zen Arado: yes think so
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: you?
    Eliza Madrigal: All well :)


    Zen Arado: trying to stop checking myself
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: What do you mean?
    Zen Arado: um
    Zen Arado: sec phone
    Eliza Madrigal: So Quen, how are the 9 seconds for you lately? Still engaged?
    quen Oh: well it is still difficult for me
    quen Oh: that is to do it regularly, varies very much with my mood, how busy or distracted I am and so on
    quen Oh: how do you manage with it?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes that seems natural...for there to be rhythms
    Zen Arado: sorry
    Eliza Madrigal: For a long time I was not setting the clock and it was taking place as course...
    Eliza Madrigal: which was nice... a bit like swimming... naturally dipping in and emerging
    Zen Arado: reading Soeng Sahn at the moment
    Eliza Madrigal: Now I think I need to get back to setting the timer :)
    Eliza Madrigal: What specifically, Zen?
    Zen Arado: just that he says it is bad tp keep checking ourselves
    Zen Arado: taking our spiritual temperature I mean
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh self-examination? Scrutiny?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhhh
    Eliza Madrigal: Does he suggest another approach?
    Zen Arado: trying to work out if we are making 'progress'
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I would agree with that
    Eliza Madrigal: we impose linear expectations...
    Eliza Madrigal: which in the context of spiritual life seems a little silly
    Zen Arado: just let things unfold
    Eliza Madrigal: Timelessness and all that :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods... sounds like Trust
    Zen Arado: very Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: non attainment


    Letting go...

    Eliza Madrigal: There is an outline Pema likes to give... Tilopa's "Six Words of Advice". Are you familiar with that? I've found it quite helpful.
    Zen Arado: no
    Eliza Madrigal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilopa (toward the bottom)
    Zen Arado: ok thanks
    quen Oh: non attainment, you mean 'detachment' Zen?
    Zen Arado: I am trying to stcik to Zen at the moment
    Zen Arado: or I get confused
    Zen Arado: it's like when we meditate we always want to get something from it
    quen Oh: it seems detachment you can find in a lot of spiritual literature outside Zen as well
    Zen Arado: greedy mind
    Zen Arado: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, and when I think of Zen, immediately I think "Walking is zen, sitting is zen..."
    Zen Arado: just doing everything fully
    Eliza Madrigal: But I do understand that some like to be very focused for a while.
    quen Oh: I was thinking meditation is only detachment, trying to not want or control or even have thoughts. so also not want something out of it
    Zen Arado: focus is ok?
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure zen, and I agree quen...
    Zen Arado: yes but most of us also expect it to do something for us?
    Zen Arado: make us calm
    Eliza Madrigal: it seems that just by virtue of taking that time out, you are letting go of what overtly productive thing you might be doing
    Zen Arado: or help us get enlightenment
    Eliza Madrigal: in favor of the more subtle
    quen Oh: well you don't need to expect it, it simply will have an effect, as everything we do or choose not to do has
    Zen Arado: ah subtle is a good word !
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    quen Oh: hi Yakuzza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey yakuzza!
    Zen Arado: Hi Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I like the idea that we are already enlightened, and sitting lets us shed what is hindering our knowing that?
    Zen Arado: so different from the resat of life where we only do A in order to get B
    Eliza Madrigal: That is the way in which the outline was helpful for me... because I tend to be a 'planner'
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: yes Eliza
    Zen Arado: I am a controller :)
    Zen Arado: planning is controlling too I think :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed :) Or playing at it anyway
    Eliza Madrigal: How are you today ya?
    Eliza Madrigal pokes Yakuzza
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I guess he is serene


    Zen Arado: being controlling in relationships causes big problems
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh indeed
    Zen Arado: for me anyway:)
    Eliza Madrigal: expectations, projections
    Zen Arado: suspicious minds
    Eliza Madrigal: yes possessiveness
    Zen Arado: I have a girl friend comes in SL and spends time talking to men friends
    Zen Arado: I don't like that
    Zen Arado: but that's the way it is
    Zen Arado: I guess
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Well that seems between you and she
    Eliza Madrigal: but it may be, and you may have to accept that :)
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: you are right
    Eliza Madrigal: Many relationships have trouble when one is open/social, and the other is closed/possessive
    quen Oh: being controlling causes problems in general?
    Eliza Madrigal: I think so quen, you?
    Zen Arado: I think it gives us all probs
    quen Oh nods
    Zen Arado: we ant life to go the way we want it to go
    Eliza Madrigal: There has to be a way to appreciate a bit of wildness
    Zen Arado: need to let go
    quen Oh: it seems a reflex of the mind to hold on to what it has, and try to control it, and also try to control all that it meets...
    Zen Arado: sure is
    quen Oh: trying to fit it into pre-formed concepts and expectations
    Zen Arado: if you like it you want it to stay that way
    Zen Arado: know the theory but....
    quen Oh: well how would we know we like our mind if it is closed to new things, so we can't really compare...? isn't it mainly fear of the enormity of what we don't know?
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Zen Arado: yes all fear of change at base
    Zen Arado: I think
    Eliza Madrigal: Which, again, seems silly... we fear basic nature? impermanence/change
    Zen Arado: yes we are so silly
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: I am anyway
    Eliza Madrigal: Sounds like you are negotiating boundaries with your love
    Eliza Madrigal: it is a kind of compatibility perhaps
    Zen Arado: we actually make things worse by being closed and protective too
    Zen Arado: yes do we need boundaries?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I think so... it is difficult to be with someone who is fearful all the time... closed, insecure
    quen Oh: seems silly, it is the huge advantage of our species to use intelligence consciously and to learn..
    Eliza Madrigal: we need boundaries like we need pencils perhaps?
    quen Oh: do you need boundaries? or trust?
    Zen Arado: trust is better
    Eliza Madrigal: but not to expect that they are going to stay the same
    Zen Arado: and be prepared to let go
    quen Oh: maybe boundaries create artificial phantom trust
    Eliza Madrigal nods...
    quen Oh: trust in the boundaries, not in the other
    Eliza Madrigal: and mayb also people stop listening if they concentrate on the boundaries and rules/expectations too much
    Eliza Madrigal: they fall out of harmony
    Zen Arado: you have to agree where to draw the boundaries too
    quen Oh: or we agree on where to seek the harmony and the balance?
    Zen Arado: yes better
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe... each day is new
    quen Oh: you can search at the limits, or you search in between
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    quen Oh: and try to be precise in how you relate to extremities, by searching for balance between them?
    Zen Arado: at the limits is dangerous :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and fun
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe..not that I would know. Im a homebody :)
    Eliza Madrigal giggles...kidding
    Eliza Madrigal: This may be the first relationship conversation I've ever had at pab
    Zen Arado: not many homebodies in here:)
    quen Oh: you were right I think Eliza: [7:51] Eliza Madrigal: and mayb also people stop listening if they concentrate on the boundaries and rules/expectations too much
    quen Oh: that is concentrating on formal organisation in the outside world
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... relationships can quickly become organizations
    quen Oh: as holding on too much to your mind's organisation, it won't bring much
    Eliza Madrigal: and we can forget the essence
    Eliza Madrigal nods nods
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: you two are so snnsible
    quen Oh smiles
    quen Oh: need to go though, was nice seeing you all!
    Zen Arado: but wonder if you would be so if your emotions were involved :)
    Zen Arado: ok bye Quen
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Quen! Good t o see you!
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, perhaps sensibleness comes from experience Zen :)
    quen Oh: another point : how to deal with emotions and to detach from them a little too, using mind and relativate and take a little distance seeing they are like weather, they happen and will pass..
    Zen Arado: amazing how quickly it eveporates though
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...that is my feeling too quen....
    Eliza Madrigal: "this too shall pass"
    quen Oh: and while they are there better enjoy them, even when they are thunderstorm
    Zen Arado: yes I know this but.....
    Zen Arado: :(
    quen Oh grins, not easy!! agree totally
    quen Oh: bye Eliza, Zen and Yakuzza
    Zen Arado: bye
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Quen :) Pretty dress, btw
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
    Zen Arado: relationships are temporary
    Zen Arado: have to remember that
    Zen Arado: enjoy while they last
    Zen Arado: suppose you are going to Phen Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe even enjoy the agony of it sometimes zen :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, I think I will... have missed a few weeks
    Zen Arado: maybe it is good for us
    Eliza Madrigal: yes....groundlessness
    Eliza Madrigal: unrequitedness
    Zen Arado: not sure whether to go or not
    Yakuzza Lethecus: jep i will idle there as well :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah Ya
    Yakuzza Lethecus: cya there :)
    Eliza Madrigal: C you :)
    Zen Arado: ok Bye
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zen :)

    Tag page (Edit tags)
    • No tags
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core