2009.12.18 19:00 - Theme Session: Applied PaB & Sustainability

The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

doug Sosa: how, band width!
doug Sosa: good to see you.
Pila Mulligan: hi doug - last I checked my connection was about 125 kbs -- a few tmies faster than dialup :)
doug Sosa: hope it holds.
Pila Mulligan: me too
doug Sosa: well, got to sit. Friend used to talk about the four dignities of a human. sleep, sit stand walk :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila, doug :)
Pila Mulligan: I'm not going to be able to type in time with the flow of things it seems
doug Sosa: Hi eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Still having connection issues Pila?
Pila Mulligan: yes -- hi ELiza
doug Sosa: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos, genesis :)
--BELL--
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eliza, Pila, Doug, (Genesis - ah)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Eliza, Eos, Pila & Doug
doug Sosa: Hi all.
genesis Zhangsun: glad you could make it in Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: hi everyone -- very slow (laggy) for me today, but I'm listneitng :)
doug Sosa: pila is barely here. Remember the old string in a tincan. that's about the bandwidth he has.
doug Sosa: hopefully he can follow along.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon :)
genesis Zhangsun: so hanging by a thread are we ;)
genesis Zhangsun: bad joke
genesis Zhangsun: hey SophiaSharon!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
Eos Amaterasu: hanging by a thread: good segue to our theme?
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Sophia, Pema
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Pema
doug Sosa: hello soph
Pema Pera: hi there, everybody!
doug Sosa: ah pema is through the fountain. two arms and no head.
Eliza Madrigal: isn't that a book?
Eliza Madrigal: "_
Pema Pera: for me, I'm sitting on my cushion . . .
Eliza Madrigal: :)
doug Sosa: gen should we enter in to the topic?
genesis Zhangsun: Lets start
genesis Zhangsun: :)
doug Sosa: well, i've two questions. but i think i'll keep them. the question is climate and pab.
doug Sosa: can pab include Climate, politics, economy?
doug Sosa: and If in a climate discussion, how to bring PaB into something ongoing?
genesis Zhangsun: my emphasis is a little broader or narrower depending on how you see it, an emphasis on how to use the process of PaB to bring more awareness about the issue of sustainability into daily life
genesis Zhangsun: broder in the sense of general applied PaB and narrow in the sense that it is a call for individual action or practice
genesis Zhangsun: *broader
doug Sosa: To me the key issue is right there. you make it that daily life is a container. what is outside? Is the economy not inside and experienceable in daily life?
genesis Zhangsun: could you say more about how the economy is related to the environment and climate issues?
doug Sosa: others?
genesis Zhangsun: Doug the format if you are okay with is a dialogue between the two of us for 20 minutes or so
doug Sosa: ah, ok.
genesis Zhangsun: then open to discussion
doug Sosa: Then the answer is something like this. I look at teh surrounding landscape. i see the highway - a car every five minutes here. i see the way it cuts the valley and how the noise drowns out the birds when a truck passes two hundred yards away.
doug Sosa: So i experience an immediate sense of how truck cuts into the paths of animlas, their ability to communicate, my own meditative and appreciateive state.
doug Sosa: do you not feel that economy and climate are related?
genesis Zhangsun: well I could could certain speculate on some questions but I was interested in your particular angle
genesis Zhangsun: *connections sorry as opposed to questions
doug Sosa: the question for me is, how do we experience economy, climate, politics? Are they abstract? I don't think so.
genesis Zhangsun: right so you are questioning are notion of "what is real"
genesis Zhangsun: the physical is much easier or "common sense" to appreciate as real
genesis Zhangsun: like the truck
--BELL--
doug Sosa: The question would not occur to me.
genesis Zhangsun: so am I correct in saying that for you the abstract is as real as the physical
doug Sosa: No. i don't like either of those words. They get in the way of paying attention to experience. the question for me is, can i experience economy (even in daily life)?
genesis Zhangsun: okay so it is not an issue of whether it "exists" or not but rather whether these abstractions can be experienced
genesis Zhangsun: so entirely tabeling the issue of existence here
doug Sosa: well, if we call them abstractions then experiencing them is hard. I am not sure here, but i increasngly think i can experience economy. I can smell it, breathe it, as much as say the weather.
genesis Zhangsun: would you like to say more about that?
doug Sosa: And I think we all do.
doug Sosa: The question is, for example, if i 9 sec, does the econoy dissapare more than say the fountain? I don't hink so.
doug Sosa: But i can notice how concepts get in the way of experience.
genesis Zhangsun: so how do you see the concept of "the economy" as something other getting in the way?
doug Sosa: Let's go back to daily life. What is often meant ny it is the mundane, the repeated daily chores and actions.
Eliza Madrigal sneaks out quietly.. nice to make it for a bit and I very much look forward to reading the log :) (Nite)
doug Sosa: The economy can be hard to experience when for example we think of money, or wonership. What if we drop those categories, and others, in the presence of experience? I hink then something like ecoomy comes through into that experience.
genesis Zhangsun: and what would that make us appreciate?
genesis Zhangsun: for me at least the current capitalist economic model is not functioning
genesis Zhangsun: I don't have do 9 seconds to see that
genesis Zhangsun: :)
doug Sosa: good example. does capitalist help of hinder experiencing. what is it? how do we inquire? How Does PaB helpf us here?
genesis Zhangsun: so the notion of "capitalist" could be hindering my experience of the economy as it is?
genesis Zhangsun: that is rather interesting
doug Sosa: yes .
doug Sosa: take for example this space we awr in. can i experience the presence of ownership of the SL corporation and its influence?
doug Sosa: I beleive we can, because we "know" that we can be censored out, or the whole could collapse as an enterprise, and we are tresspassing, in a way.
doug Sosa: Our experience is of a ceertain subletle insecurity.
doug Sosa: Of being dependent on an enterprise.
doug Sosa: It is that kind of experience, real experience, that i think we can get at and would help us rething economy and climate.
doug Sosa: rethink
genesis Zhangsun: interesting point Doug, shall we open to the floor?
doug Sosa: twenty minutes past?
genesis Zhangsun: yes
genesis Zhangsun: thoughts?
doug Sosa: yes.
genesis Zhangsun: experiences?
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Eos Amaterasu: [19:23] genesis Zhangsun: for me at least the current capitalist economic model is not functioning [19:23] genesis Zhangsun: I don't have do 9 seconds to see that
Eos Amaterasu: How about flipping that around, and taking 90 secs to experience holding that thought?
genesis Zhangsun: sure
Eos Amaterasu: (of capitalist economics) (or pick your model)
genesis Zhangsun: or just the "economy"
genesis Zhangsun: and try to drop the labels
Pema Pera: (fascinating, Doug and Gen! -- have to sneak out quietly, RL calling; will read the chat log)
doug Sosa: :(
Eos Amaterasu: bye Pema
genesis Zhangsun: bye Pema take care thanks for making it
genesis Zhangsun: so in the 90 seconds we will experience "the economy" stripped of all prejudice
--BELL--
Eos Amaterasu: had to seek out "economics" and find it in my personal life, which came down to how I make my living
doug Sosa: i find it hard to deal with what is "her" in SL and what is outside in RL.
Eos Amaterasu: and just staying with the observation and feeling of that
doug Sosa: good. and in that :how i make a living" can you sense larger "unseen" forces?
Eos Amaterasu: I can sense the value of just allowing the sensing of that to happen
Eos Amaterasu: intelligence in just sitting with it
doug Sosa: For example, the presence of contract?
Eos Amaterasu: it has intelligence - I don't add it
Eos Amaterasu: presence of contract :-)
doug Sosa: Can you unpack that sentence for me?
doug Sosa: ah, ok.
genesis Zhangsun: for me it was quite challenging not to make the short sitting into a game of logic
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
genesis Zhangsun: because that is what I am pretty sure PaB is not
genesis Zhangsun: or meditation practice in general
genesis Zhangsun: though of course there are completely anlytical methods in some schools
genesis Zhangsun: *analytical
doug Sosa: But that brings me back to you division between "daily life" and what is not daily life.
SophiaSharon Larnia: economy to me during the 90 secs the sensing of other beings that occupy the same space, requires a colloboration
doug Sosa: Is PaB on the side of daily life and not interested in "economy"?
Eos Amaterasu: there are a lot of abstractions that are a little obfuscated that drive a lot of our not-daily lives
genesis Zhangsun: yes that is a central point Doug
Eos Amaterasu: the economy is such an abstraction, or can be presented as such
genesis Zhangsun: and the challenge to walking this new path of applied PaB authentically
Eos Amaterasu: but once we see ourselves in its story, then it's no longer abstract
doug Sosa: It can, but that then downplays or eleiminates our experience of it.
doug Sosa: i believe we can experience it.
Eos Amaterasu: being able to tell that story is what PaB can allow to happen
doug Sosa: Good .
genesis Zhangsun: would you like to say more about collaboration SophiaSharon?
Eos Amaterasu: if the story is not told in a personal way, you feel powerless
genesis Zhangsun: any truth has to have a context :)
Eos Amaterasu: it's not just your story... our story
genesis Zhangsun: so the idea of living a story and bringing the issues of economy to life resonates with me
genesis Zhangsun: bringing to life in your life
Eos Amaterasu: I think re the "financial crisis" that's a story yet to be spoken, plus people feel that the obfuscating abstrctions are preventing that
SophiaSharon Larnia: like Doug said earlier, which i didn't consider before, how other people expressions can intrude on your own
doug Sosa: yes, and it is not just the story of victimage, but experiencing "finance". Like writing a check, what is that? Paying a mortgage. What is our experience of that?
Eos Amaterasu: yea, so you lose your own voice
Eos Amaterasu: doing rituals that keep the wheels going round and round
genesis Zhangsun: indeed for me my feeling is that the 9 seconds and the process that it itroduces into your life assist in finding your own voice, and perhaps from there speaking
doug Sosa: Like the lines of property here in SL one can turn on to see. Outside i've come to be able to see them because we feel thm. we know, as much as dog with wires burid in the ground as a "fence" whee we can and cannot go.
genesis Zhangsun: it is only through understanding and really seeing our context, our voice, what is possible in our lives that we can make changes that will inevitably have larger impact
Eos Amaterasu: seeing those invisible wires, yes
Eos Amaterasu: seeing that it is we that create and maintain them
doug Sosa: "really seeing our context" is a big step. Is it possible?
genesis Zhangsun: so we turn on awareness to the econonomy, to the environment because we generally are more aware
doug Sosa: What do we experience in that direction?
Eos Amaterasu: needs personal practice, of seeing your own context
Eos Amaterasu: and group practice, of co-generating and seeing group context
genesis Zhangsun: 9 seconds and letting Being see I think are less reductionist approaches to seeing one's context
doug Sosa: So it feels like here we ar making some progress. stories, shared, beare of concpets..
genesis Zhangsun: science I see as far to reductionist, or philosophy, or law, or any disciplinary lens on its own
--BELL--
genesis Zhangsun: or even more radical any use of a lens is reductionist :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: slips away quietly, bye all :))
genesis Zhangsun: bye SophiaSharon
genesis Zhangsun: maybe what feels so limiting about the economy is that it is only considered through the lens of "economics"
genesis Zhangsun: and doesn't take into account complex social factors
Eos Amaterasu: "business is business" is the ultimate abstraction away from the truth of economics
doug Sosa: it is fun to think about how eco-nomics and eco-logy diverged so far from the same root.
Eos Amaterasu: it divorces away from "our story" - it's a business, not personal, story
genesis Zhangsun: indeed interesting Doug
doug Sosa: Actually isn't "business" for people who do it realy filled with person experienceable stuff?
Eos Amaterasu: it is, but usually it's stuff they won't tell their wives about
Eos Amaterasu: not whole picture
genesis Zhangsun: lol :)
Eos Amaterasu: boys' clubs
doug Sosa: the claim of most "businessmen is that what they do is real, compard to what others do: artists, reporters, scientists, doctors even.
genesis Zhangsun: haha I just read great study which showed that sanitary workers were more valuable to society that bankers
genesis Zhangsun: *than
doug Sosa: What I've seen is most Businesspeople spend all of their time at home talking about it.
genesis Zhangsun: and think about the pay gap
genesis Zhangsun: there's economics for you there
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps next time Doug , we should back up a bit and talk about the whole notion of an "applied PaB"
genesis Zhangsun: how that is or is not possible
genesis Zhangsun: as well as our own personal stories as to how we arrived here
doug Sosa: and if it really is different from "normal" PaB.
Eos Amaterasu: Applied PaB: attending to that inner place from which our action originates
Eos Amaterasu: it all comes from there
genesis Zhangsun: I like it Eos
doug Sosa: how is that dif from PaB?
Eos Amaterasu: (usually from panic)
genesis Zhangsun: well said
Eos Amaterasu: not fundamentall diff from "pure" PaB
genesis Zhangsun: the way I see it, unsustainable practices are taking place in all sorts of pernicious ways in our own lives
genesis Zhangsun: like burn out
Eos Amaterasu: in fact, pure PaB is a bit of an abstrction :-)
genesis Zhangsun: like consumption of food, clothes, gas
doug Sosa: I like it.
doug Sosa: That is the direction of this thinking.
Eos Amaterasu: we just need to see it, through a truth-ier story
genesis Zhangsun: so of course the disparate impact adds up to unsustainable practices on a global scale
Eos Amaterasu: the so-called economy is making billions from our fixations on merchandised thoughts
doug Sosa: ut if we stay closse to experience, that is very hard, like the banker/janitor story. very hard to make that judgement really, and maybe not necessary. perhaps experience can lead us to better thinking.
genesis Zhangsun: yes and we are more likely to see the world more truthfully if we see oursevles more truthfully
doug Sosa: Yes billions, but can we reallyimagine an alternative that would also feed people?
genesis Zhangsun: see the ways we are doing things in an unsustainable way, attempting to squeeze out more productivity, get the last word etc :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hannah Arendt said that evil was not "deep", but came from superficiality
Eos Amaterasu: PaB helps notice superficiality
genesis Zhangsun: or laziness
Eos Amaterasu: and that you don't really need it, the distractions
genesis Zhangsun: passivity
genesis Zhangsun: the banality of evil
doug Sosa: but what if this house of cads is the way we stay afloat as a society. if we knock it down and many more drown?
Eos Amaterasu: house of cads, indeed
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
doug Sosa: ha cards. brilliant i was without knowing it!
Eos Amaterasu: truer words were never spoken!
doug Sosa: still house of cads, but alternative?
Eos Amaterasu: we are the cads
doug Sosa: Can we disintegate with 7 billion people?
Eos Amaterasu: ah, that's it
Eos Amaterasu: I would not underestimate people
doug Sosa: here is where paying close attention to experience and concepts could be helpful.
Eos Amaterasu: a bit of a push,and 49.9% of the people would be there
Eos Amaterasu: need to start at a young age
Eos Amaterasu: oh yes, this image came to mind, during the 90 secs
genesis Zhangsun: I have to get going exactly at 8
doug Sosa: So i think we are in a sort of normal conversation now but made better by slowign down, questiooning outslde the normal range of questions.
--BELL--
Eos Amaterasu: it takes two to approach and presence the present truthfully
doug Sosa: we may not have answeres but we are not so ideological.
Eos Amaterasu: yourself and a child
genesis Zhangsun: speaking of I have to tend to mine, its her bedtime :)
doug Sosa: We stop at eight? Family all peering around teh door asking for food!
genesis Zhangsun: oh no we eat much earlier Doug
genesis Zhangsun: need time to digest
genesis Zhangsun: :)
doug Sosa: see you again.
genesis Zhangsun: lets keep talking
genesis Zhangsun: thanks for coming Eos
genesis Zhangsun: take care :)
Eos Amaterasu: Ciao!
Eos Amaterasu: Bye Gen!