2011.01.07 07:00 - Natural Flow of Time & the Play as Being School

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    The Guardian for this meeting following our return to Time Sessions earlier, was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, joined by a wide array of avatars: Bleu Oleander, Bleu Levasseur, Zen, Wol, Kit, Chi, Riddle, Aphrodite, oOOOo, Bruce, Yakuzza, Xiriana ...

    Eliza Madrigal: ah, sorry
    Wol Euler: :)
    Zen Arado: np
    Eliza Madrigal: but I think we're good now...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Zen, I'd like to pick up on your idea of snapshots....
    Zen Arado: be my guest
    Wol Euler: brb, RL is calling
    Eliza Madrigal: coming from the talk about cubism and perspective 'snapshots' of moments seemed an interesting kind of wide-perspective way to see time
    Eliza Madrigal: in a totality
    Eliza Madrigal: like those puzzles that are faces and when one completes it the image is of another face...
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Chi :) Welcome
    Chi Aho: ty, Eliza
    Bleu Oleander: hi Chi
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Chi:)
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Chi
    Eliza Madrigal: I think you've been here before and know that we record our sessions..
    Chi Aho: hi everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Chi Aho: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: just making sure , thank you
    Chi Aho: not for a while, but i have been here before
    Eliza Madrigal: Wecome 'back' then!
    Chi Aho: ty
    Chi Aho: Any particular topic being engaged?

    Eliza Madrigal: Is there a topic on anyone's mind, or perhaps we continue with 'Time'?
    Eliza Madrigal: We've just come from the weekly time session Chi... a review to begin the year I guess, starting fresh
    Chi Aho: In another sl convo the other day someone suggested time was a fiction
    Chi Aho: oh, o.k.
    Eliza Madrigal: we don't seem to see time but we see its effects...
    Eliza Madrigal: distance
    Riddle Sideways: back, was off reading about Hockney. very interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: back, reading.

    Eliza Madrigal: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time

    Eliza Madrigal: this is the link to Pema's book that we're discussing early on Fridays... just for future reference
    Eliza Madrigal: Chi, do you think time is a fiction?
    Riddle Sideways: an invented construct?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aphrodite :)
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Aph
    oO0Oo Resident smiles at aphrodite
    Wol Euler: hello aph
    Chi Aho: I think time is...
    Aphrodite Macbain: hello
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe 'what is fiction' is as wonderful a topic as 'what is time'
    Bleu Oleander: hey Aph
    Chi Aho: a "useful fiction" used to measure things
    Chi Aho: It doesn't really exist
    Eliza Madrigal: straw man for what then?
    Aphrodite Macbain: a useful way to find a rhythm to our lives
    Bleu Oleander: a way for us to make sense of our experience ... a way for us to "write" our stories
    Eliza Madrigal: to share then? like a vehicle?
    Chi Aho: I see it as a kind of yardstick

    Riddle makes an innocent observation that playfully runs away with some of the session....

    Riddle Sideways: useful as a way to ... (did you ever get into a sentence you could not finish?)

    Aphrodite Macbain: a way of sharing- yes Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: I never finish sentences RIddle... dont believe in the finished sentence...hehe
    Riddle Sideways: hehe
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi observerm
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ob :)

    Eliza Madrigal: a pause is approaching... does someone have an idea for an exploration... ?

    Xirana Oximoxi: there's the time we can mesure with a clock, and there's the subjective time than can not be mesured with this kind of tool...
    Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza- you're no longer blonde! Did you decide you have more fun as a brunette
    Xirana Oximoxi: another not finished setnence hehe
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm bossy and impatient as a blonde
    Aphrodite Macbain: I like this idea of discussing time and ...
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe


    Eliza Madrigal: we'll just leave it open
    Aphrodite Macbain: wow, just by changing your hair colour, you can ...
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Bleu Oleander: the Eliza we know and love ....
    Aphrodite Macbain smiles

    Chi Aho: Time, I would say, is all in our perception. We've all had the experience of having time *seem* to just fly by - 2 hrs. seem like 5 min., and then we've had the opposite experience as in "When will this lecture end?"

    Wol Euler nods.
    oO0Oo Resident: mmm
    Zen Arado: subjectivity of time
    Aphrodite Macbain: time flies when you are not thinking about it
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... one day kinds of time feel like they are coordinating with one another and another day like crashing into one another..

    oO0Oo Resident: begs the question, is time dependent on thinking?

    Aphrodite Macbain: when you are foucussed in on something -Czistemehaley (sp)
    Aphrodite Macbain: in the "zone"
    Bleu Oleander: Csikszentmihalyi
    Eliza Madrigal: does seem to beg that question...
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bleu
    Wol Euler: ty bleu, beat me to it :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: How so Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal remembers eos saying "I think therefore there's time"
    Bleu Oleander: great book, "the Evolving Self"
    Aphrodite Macbain: by C.?
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: one of my favorite snapshots... my son at roughly 10 months, laughing like crazy, I'm holding him and in the back ground C's book "Creativity"
    Aphrodite Macbain: Time goes slowly when we are bored, watching the clock.
    Chi Aho: I like that idea of the self evolving, developing, growing
    Aphrodite Macbain: Like the idea of that image Eliza

    Eliza Madrigal: snapshot of free time :)
    Zen Arado: C's books seem to be about 'Flow'
    Eliza Madrigal: time in its natural state, heh

    Bleu Oleander: "the mechanical division of time that rules our daily schedules is one obstacle that interferes with flow." (from that book)
    Wol Euler nods.
    Aphrodite Macbain: when we're not measuring it, observing it, there is no time
    Wol Euler thinks of the expression "beating time" when learning to play music
    Eliza Madrigal: competing with it?
    Wol Euler: thrashing it mercilessly :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    oO0Oo Resident: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: back to no holds barred I guess

    Aphrodite Macbain: If that is true, why do we deliberately break up out time into 15 minute segments?
    Wol Euler: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: to 'come back'
    Bleu Oleander: he talks about bells signaling time and interrupting flow

    Chi Aho: It is a cultural concept also: We speak of wasting time, saving time, spending time, buying time - all as though time were a commodity of some sort.

    Aphrodite Macbain: to what?
    Wol Euler: well, Aph, that is exactly why I stopped doing it so rigorously in RL
    Eliza Madrigal: it is sort of meant to interrupt our interruptions
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think it breaks the flow Wol
    Eliza Madrigal: WB Bruce

                    Is time one of our senses?

    Bleu Oleander: in flow the sense of time is natural rather than arbitrary

    Riddle Sideways: and the beat goes on
    oO0Oo Resident: hey Bruce!
    Wol Euler: wb bruce
    Eliza Madrigal: Seems to have to do with 'view'....
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, everyone.
    Zen Arado: wb Bruce
    Xirana Oximoxi: hello Bruce:)

    Wol Euler: but if there is no time, did he leave?

    Aphrodite Macbain: yes I agree, that's why the 9 second breaks at such regular intervals feels unnatural
    Aphrodite Macbain: my fingers haven't had enough coffee yet - too many typos

    Eliza Madrigal: when one is open everything is open....
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce
    Eliza Madrigal: so I don't think it is the tools but our way of seeing
    Eliza Madrigal: pointers everywhere...
    Aphrodite Macbain: but do the tools come from within or without?
    Riddle Sideways: ah, our point of view
    Eliza Madrigal: both?

    oO0Oo Resident: defined forms allow dance with non form
    Wol Euler: perhaps if it interrupts, then it is coming from without?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes are we wrestling or dancing with time?
    Zen Arado: no holds barred is wrestling :)
    Eliza Madrigal: or is that the same? lol
    oO0Oo Resident loves dancing barefoot
    Riddle Sideways: all holds barred is ...
    Wol Euler: competitive meditation :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- what holds?

    Eliza Madrigal smiles at the feeling of dancing barefoot...

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi ____ :) Welcome to PlayasBeing
    Aphrodite Macbain: hello
    Riddle Sideways: Hi
    Wol Euler: hello _____. Born today, welcome to Second LIfe
    oO0Oo Resident: speaking of resting with the questios
    oO0Oo Resident: questions*
    Wol Euler: I'll give you an introduction to the group in IM, so we don'T disturb the others
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes ooOoo?
    Eliza Madrigal: ____ I've give you a note about the group :) I'll IM you so the discussion can flow...
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    oO0Oo Resident: Play on ???s name Aph
    Wol Euler: already doing that eliza :)

    Bruce Mowbray: "all hold barred" is, to me, the same thing as having "no reference points."

    Eliza Madrigal: =P~
    Riddle Sideways: ___, please feel free to sit and complete the circle
    Riddle Sideways: we have a lovely pillow down front :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: right next to my right
    oO0Oo Resident: time as conformity?
    Eliza Madrigal: resting in open no reference points and unfinished sentences....

    Zen Arado: we were talking about panic attacks in my RL meditation group last night
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Samuo-useful conformity?
    Eliza Madrigal: hm...
    Zen Arado: funny ...they said it was a feeling of losing their fixed reference points
    Aphrodite Macbain: a tool to be used or not
    Riddle Sideways: just hate panic attacks during meditation

    I (eliza commenting) haven't stopped thinking about this line yet but for reasons I couldn't give:

    oO0Oo Resident: saviour layer from existing in a limitless state

    Zen Arado: wondered if that is akin to enlightenment?
    Bleu Oleander: :) Riddle
    Aphrodite Macbain: seems like a conflict in terms
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, not for me Zen. When I had panic attacks it was sweaty hands and a need to get 'away' to run...


    Zen Arado: it was after the meditation Riddle :)
    Riddle Sideways: sorry zen, I have to make jokes
    Zen Arado: np :)
    Zen Arado: yes for some it was physical
    Zen Arado: but suspect that was triggered by mind?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes all same in that sense
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Eliza Madrigal: oOOOo... am going over your phrase... savior layer from existing in a limitless state.... enigmatic :)

    Zen Arado: but the 'groundlessness' of enlightenment could be similar I thought
    Zen Arado: what does it mean Sam?

    Bruce Mowbray: If one can expand the "space/time" of the meditation, then one can "hold" the panic attack -- as one might hold anything else that "rises" during meditation.

    Aphrodite Macbain: limitless time and space is frightening to me- I wonder why

    oO0Oo Resident: intuiting on from conformity Eliza
    Wol Euler: like a seatbelt holding us to existence?
    Zen Arado: from what I gather it is too powerful for that Bruce
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Eliza Madrigal: well similar in fear in a way.... @ Zen. 'groundlessness' is what allowed me to rest and not get caught in that fear... groundlessness was a comfort
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Wol - a safety net
    Eliza Madrigal: open net :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Wol Euler: interesting, eliza. Grounding was the answer to my panic attacks; seeing that I would not fall
    Zen Arado: maybe meditation practice would have helped
    oO0Oo Resident: open net :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: a non functional net?
    oO0Oo Resident: Indra's net
    Bruce Mowbray ponders an habitual reaction that could be more powerful than meditation. . .
    Aphrodite Macbain: fear of free fall
    Eliza Madrigal: well, maybe in some ways grounding and groundlessness can be said to be the same... grounded in groundlessness... though it sounds like word play....

    Zen Arado: one guy said it just came out of the blue
    Zen Arado: and totally overwhelming
    Aphrodite Macbain: the panic attacks Zen?
    Zen Arado: yes
    oO0Oo Resident nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: wonder what triggers them for him
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I would be ordering a latte and freeze up... simple things
    Wol Euler: huh
    Zen Arado: and it kind of reinforces itself
    Wol Euler: oh yes
    Zen Arado: fear of the fear
    Wol Euler: *yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: sounds biological rather than psychological
    Aphrodite Macbain: if it comes out of the blue
    oO0Oo Resident: or both
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... seems all wrapped up....
    Eliza Madrigal: like 'depression' can come from not drinking enough water...

    Aphrodite Macbain: and creating compartments in time and space makes us feel more secure?

    Zen Arado: we realize how much we depend on our 'normality' of everyday life

    oO0Oo Resident reaches for drinking vessel
    Aphrodite Macbain: psychologically
    Eliza Madrigal: even though one can tie it to a history....
    Zen Arado: don't I mean
    Eliza Madrigal: :) oOOOo
    Wol Euler: :)
    Zen Arado: the security of the familiar

    Bruce Mowbray: Is the panic attack "inside of Mind" or the other way around? Seems to me that Mind is "larger" - and could, theoretically anyway, embrace the attack until one feels safe again.

    Zen Arado: that's what I thought too Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: the panic attack pretends to be (the) mind perhaps....
    Zen Arado: but they tell me no
    Eliza Madrigal: strange to describe... but giving it space is definitely the way to go
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Aphrodite Macbain: there's the rational mind- the cereebral cortex, and the irrational mind
    Zen Arado: it could help at least
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: we depend on our rationality so much
    Aphrodite Macbain: two parts of our mind working together- or not
    Zen Arado: and if something happens to question it....

    Bleu Oleander: it's chemistry
    Kit Ciaco: Must leave - talk soon -
    Zen Arado: bye Kit
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Kit :) See you again soon
    Wol Euler: bye kit, take care
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- tho I hate to think it's only chemistry
    Bleu Oleander: bye Kit
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Kit.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Kit
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye kit:9
    Eliza Madrigal: well chemistry can't be isolated can it.. so no such thing as 'just' chemistry?
    Zen Arado: being able to detach from thoughts a bit through meditation helped me with bad dreams though
    Bruce Mowbray: For me, brain does not equate to mind (and vice versa) - Mind is far far more than brain.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Zen Arado: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: If our moods are effected by chemistry- then so much of what we do is affected by chemistry
    Eliza Madrigal: which makes me thik of Vector's point earlier re thinking and awareness...
    Bleu Oleander: no such thing as "just" anything
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Wol Euler nods
    Zen Arado: have to stop usig that word :)
    Zen Arado: it's a sneaky little qualifier
    Riddle Sideways: :) the list of not use words is getting long
    Eliza Madrigal: pause approaching...
    Zen Arado: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: But we should be aware of what is shaping our world without reducing it to "justs"
    Eliza Madrigal: yes no 'bug zapping' hehe
    Zen Arado: so we have to remain silent eventually :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Riddle Sideways: need to leave, thanks all ...
    Bleu Oleander: can't know everything that is shaping our world
    Aphrodite Macbain: bug zapping?
    Zen Arado: bye Riddle
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Riddle, thanks fo your vibrant presence today
    oO0Oo Resident: bye riddle
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Riddle
    Wol Euler: bye riddle, glow well
    Bleu Oleander: bye Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye Riddle
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Riddle.
    Eliza Madrigal: bug zapping is just a funny way of pointing to trying to clean things up too much.. have a bunch of 'not's...


    Aphrodite Macbain smiles her thanks at Eliza
    oO0Oo Resident: Yes Zen, there is something about time and silence
    Aphrodite Macbain: what is that something Zen
    Eliza Madrigal lets go of all former lines of thought...
    oO0Oo Resident: :) Eliza
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) Eliza!
    Zen Arado: 'that thereof one cannot speak whereof one should remain silent'
    Bleu Oleander: ... or give it your best guess ..... :)
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Zen Arado: have never believed that though :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: what is that from Zen?
    Zen Arado: Wittgenstein
    Aphrodite Macbain: nothing wrong with a thoughtful opinion
    Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm he had a number of thoughtful opinions
    oO0Oo Resident: there is a field...
    Zen Arado: we could shorten sessions to 5 minutes :)
    Bleu Oleander: there would be a lot of silence if went by that Zen
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: I think Wittgenstein was referring to "essences" and "first principles" and other stuff that can only be inferred - not experienced.
    Aphrodite Macbain: a lot of meditatig?
    Zen Arado: exactly Bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: there's something we get close to hear... concerning openness and precision at once...
    Aphrodite Macbain: we can speak about experience but not "truths" unless we are informed?
    Bleu Oleander: lots of interesting ideas come from wondering out loud
    Eliza Madrigal: and opinions/thoughtfulness that isn't separate from silence
    Bleu Oleander: hey Yaku
    Wol Euler: hello yaku, nice tux!
    Xirana Oximoxi: hello Yaku:)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Yaku.
    Aphrodite Macbain: asking questions...
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Yakuzza (who looks like ralph fiennes now)

    oO0Oo Resident:

    Out beyond
    ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
    there is a field.
    I will meet you

    When the soul lies down
    in that grass,
    the world is too
    to talk about
    ideas, even the phrase

    each other
    doesn't make any sense.
    -- Rumi

    Wol Euler: and a new skin too, if I see rightly :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Zen Arado: Hi Yaku
    Aphrodite Macbain: hello Yaku
    oO0Oo Resident: hey Yaku
    Bruce Mowbray: One-shoe Yaku looks like he's off to a wedding. . . (or a funeral). . .
    Aphrodite Macbain: don't recognize you
    Bleu Oleander: still celebrating the new year Yaku?
    Wol Euler: nice, Sam!
    Eliza Madrigal: Oooooooh oOOOo, thank you....
    Xirana Oximoxi: :))
    Chi Aho: Hi, yakuzza
    Zen Arado: good quote Sam
    Eliza Madrigal: I've heard snippets of that quoted for a long time, don't remember reading the whole thing before!
    Bruce Mowbray: brb -- rl phone call.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Samuo - thank you. How beautiful
    Eliza Madrigal: makes me think of Suzuki's 'wide field' and the breeze of the swinging door....
    oO0Oo Resident: yw, thank Yaku though
    oO0Oo Resident: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: ?
    Eliza Madrigal: swinging door... breathing :)
    Zen Arado: it says something smlar in the Tao
    oO0Oo Resident: without Yaku, there would be no time or space
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Aphrodite Macbain: ?
    Eliza Madrigal: man of mystery
    Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps that concept is equivalent to nirvana or a utopia
    Aphrodite Macbain: something to seek
    oO0Oo Resident: man of mystery?
    oO0Oo Resident: lol
    oO0Oo Resident: sorry
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: the wide field Aph?

    oO0Oo Resident bridles discursive bubbles
    Eliza Madrigal: bubble zapping...
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Eliza
    Aphrodite Macbain: discursive rectangles?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: cubes...
    Aphrodite Macbain: tinkling together
    Aphrodite Macbain: bumping along
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Aphrodite Macbain: sorry...
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Aphrodite Macbain: I was in the flow
    Eliza Madrigal: bubbling brook....
    Aphrodite Macbain grins
    Aphrodite Macbain: I imagined ice cubes in a glass of water
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Chi, come again :) thanks for the topic


    Chi Aho: I have to go everyone. Enjoyed it
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Chi
    Zen Arado: bye Chi
    Bleu Oleander: bye all :)
    oO0Oo Resident: "Tai" Chi
    Zen Arado: I better go too
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye who´s leaving
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! bye Bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu and Xiriana and Zen :) Thanks
    Wol Euler: bye bleu, chi, xir
    Wol Euler: bye zen
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye to all... and thanks for this interesting time:)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Looks like alot of us!
    Eliza Madrigal: goodnight jim bob... goodnight peggy sue...
    Wol Euler: heheheh

    Aphrodite Macbain: the magic of time. Boom it's 8am, boom, time to finish

    oO0Oo Resident feels pixel love for others
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Wol Euler: indeed!
    Aphrodite Macbain sends Samuo some pixels
    Eliza Madrigal: is pixel love something like muskrat love?
    Aphrodite Macbain giggles
    Wol Euler: prim scratch fever?
    oO0Oo Resident: rofl
    Aphrodite Macbain: rofl?
    Wol Euler: Rolling On Floor Laughing
    oO0Oo Resident: ty Wol
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Wol Euler: :)

    oO0Oo Resident straightens pixels, sits up and gathers sense of self
    Aphrodite Macbain: I've lost my "dies laughing" animation

    Eliza Madrigal: is water the closest thing to time ? seems many of our analogies and metaphors are that...
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Aphrodite Macbain: flowing. still
    Wol Euler: that's a really nice analogy.
    Aphrodite Macbain: always changing - Siddhartha
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and the feel of sailing with it, or against it... besieged...
    Eliza Madrigal: or carried
    Eliza Madrigal: or just watching... sitting with it flowing by... wheels round and round....

    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. But can it be broken up
    oO0Oo Resident: infinately
    Aphrodite Macbain: the way we break up time?

    Eliza Madrigal: once Lucinda had a dream she shared about slicing sandwiches... she said she thought it had to do with time....
    Eliza Madrigal: she was slicing it like pie I think...
    Aphrodite Macbain: organizing, controling, managing - a real need
    Eliza Madrigal: wonder how many children she could feed ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: loaves and fishes?
    oO0Oo Resident: nice
    Eliza Madrigal: strangely... yes that's the image that comes to mind isn't it...

    Wol Euler: if only time were as easy to come by as pie...
    Aphrodite Macbain: or carbon 14
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: for some, time is easier to come by
    oO0Oo Resident holds back
    Wol Euler: wellllllllllll, I can give you a slice of pie, but you can't give me more time
    Aphrodite Macbain: why Samuo
    Aphrodite Macbain: thinking about people on the streets of Calcutta, for instance
    Eliza Madrigal: can't make 'more' it seems but can perhaps open to let it flow more freely....
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thy
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: ello Bleu :) Lovely gown
    Wol Euler: hello bleu, nice to see you again
    Bleu Levasseur: hello everyone!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hello bleu
    Bleu Levasseur: ty eliza
    Bleu Levasseur: and ty wol
    Bleu Levasseur: sorry to interrupt the flow ...
    Eliza Madrigal: there is a saying 'god can do more with a quarter than you can do with a million dollars'.... somehow think giving 'up' time is like that... (with or without the word god)
    Eliza Madrigal: not at all Bleu :)
    oO0Oo Resident: just in time bleu
    Bleu Levasseur: haha!
    Eliza Madrigal: not that I'm patient enough to give up enough time tho...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: we can take it though
    Aphrodite Macbain: or try to
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :) like those walks....

    Aphrodite Macbain: Now that I'm retired I luxuriate in it

    Bleu Levasseur: time is different for different people
    Eliza Madrigal: time in appreciation?

    oO0Oo Resident: interesting to think of 'now' in relation to time

    Aphrodite Macbain: yes time is relative and subjective
    Bleu Levasseur: i hate doing things in a rush
    Aphrodite Macbain: hence our 90 second pauses
    Bleu Levasseur: i like to think about what i am doing, not just blindly rush through


    Aphrodite Macbain: mindfulness
    Aphrodite Macbain: I find the challenge of the 90 second pauses are to be really silent - eliminate the monkey brain
    Wol Euler nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: mindful luxuriating....
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)

                        Now in the session, we get practical... sort of :) 

    Bleu Levasseur: but often that is not understood at work; they think if you are not constantly belting thro, you are not being 'productive' enough
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Bleu Levasseur: which is a misconception
    Aphrodite Macbain: ahhh productivity- modernist curse
    Eliza Madrigal: gosh... have worked next to so many people who were good at looking busy
    oO0Oo Resident: it's the disconnect of our age
    Aphrodite Macbain: piling up paper
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Eliza Madrigal: yes..it is the bane of the school system too... not to rant
    Eliza Madrigal: and why one can't come into a classroom and introduce eternal now :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah - 2 teachers: Bleu and Eliza
    Bleu Levasseur: and the long hours culture is not as productive as threy would like to think either

                          I'd read 'doh' as don't...

    Bleu Levasseur: doh, totally agree, eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: yes?
    Eliza Madrigal listens happily
    Bleu Levasseur: 'pace' is all important
    Bleu Levasseur: but not time for reflection...
    Aphrodite Macbain: what do you mean by culture in this instance Bleu
    Bleu Levasseur: many investment banks expect their employees to work long hours
    Bleu Levasseur: if they want promotion

    Aphrodite Macbain: oh the culture of commerce
    Bleu Levasseur: but studies have shown that they actually achieve little more than people who work a normal working day
    oO0Oo Resident sprinkles pixel dust on bank employees
    Eliza Madrigal: that was my question really... how does a teacher, pile up enough paper to prove progress and yet give space for spontaneity at the same time... have to have lots of 'show'
    Aphrodite Macbain: or certain times are alloted for contemplation
    Bleu Levasseur: how can progrees actually be proved?
    Aphrodite Macbain: measurements for success depend on how you define success
    oO0Oo Resident: talk about the 'best' investment
    Eliza Madrigal: schools tend to ignore studies that show a walk or stretching helps tests and such....
    Bleu Levasseur: not by a stupid test
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bleu Levasseur: that is only a part of the sum learned
    Aphrodite Macbain: do I detect frustration in your voices Bleu and Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: I think we agree :)
    Wol Euler grins.
    Aphrodite Macbain: detect
    Bleu Levasseur: oh abssolutely, aphrodite
    Bleu Levasseur: what country are you in, eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe, well... I have children and they are interesting people who respond to some things and not others and can be distressed fitting into boxes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: the US Bleu, Florida
    Bleu Levasseur: i am talking about english education
    Bleu Levasseur: seems we are up against the same difficulties
    Aphrodite Macbain: are schools less funded than before?
    Bleu Levasseur: yes and no, aphrodite
    Eliza Madrigal always loved the idea of English classical education.... under a tree with a book... outdoors... walks and drawing...

    Aphrodite Macbain: is it the funding or the culture or are they intertwined?
    Bleu Levasseur: its a question of where the money goes
    Bleu Levasseur: more the culture
    Bleu Levasseur: i would say
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, how it is sliced up :)

    Bleu Levasseur: that still exists at a few universities, eliza
    Aphrodite Macbain: the values and vision of the education system/?
    Bleu Levasseur: but it was only ever in a few universities
    Aphrodite Macbain: sorry
    Bleu Levasseur: i am sure the government sees children as units of production of the future..
    Eliza Madrigal: I tried it for a while with my own when they were little ... not quite the umph to remain so idealistic so compromised in some ways, but tried not to drop the vision/view
    Bleu Levasseur: that is how students are labelled in higher education
    Aphrodite Macbain: I guess I'm trying to figure out where the changes need to happen, from the top or from the grass roots.
    Eliza Madrigal: stepped out of the school system for a while, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: when they went back, they could see through it...
    Bleu Levasseur: teaching is not organic
    Wol Euler: learning that is very good, eliza.
    Bleu Levasseur: your kids were lucky, eliza
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Eliza, stepping out of a system gives us a better perspective on it, but how can we change it?
    Eliza Madrigal: I felt I couldn't wait for the system to change...
    Bleu Levasseur: child development, psychology etc is no longer routinely taught to student teachers
    Eliza Madrigal: even though I spent lots of time trying to do so
    Bleu Levasseur: just ...how to follow the government curriculum
    Aphrodite Macbain: so what did you do Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: that said, our balances aren't perfect now...
    Eliza Madrigal: well we've done a million things Aph
    Bleu Levasseur: so, the teachers have no expectation of what is appropriate at any given point, for the children

    oO0Oo Resident: let us measure the success of society, by how long we can forestall the natural smiles on our children's faces from turning to masks of cynacism

    Aphrodite Macbain: but the parents should Bleu
    Wol Euler: nice
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
    Wol Euler: Gross National Happiness
    Bleu Levasseur: or failure, samuo
    Eliza Madrigal: :D
    Wol Euler: Gross National Well-Adjustedness :)
    Wol Euler: the anglophone west would fail on both scores, I fear
    Bleu Levasseur: not all the story, aphrodite
    Aphrodite Macbain: they measure sich things using a variety of measurements
    Eliza Madrigal: some would not say my kids are well adjusted though... there are angles to measure at....
    Eliza Madrigal: for instance, it goes against the grain to think that they are born with all they need
    Bleu Levasseur: the curriculum often expects children to learn things before they are developmentally capable
    Aphrodite Macbain: well adjusted- sounds scary. Does that mean how well you fit in to the lowest common denominator?
    Wol Euler: hopefully not :)

    Eliza Madrigal: well... in fairness....
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes?
    Eliza Madrigal: we often measure by our own situations and contexts...
    Wol Euler: I meant more what we are aiming for here: at peace with oneself and the world


    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, Eliza, I agree.
    Bleu Levasseur: they do not teach that at school ...they do not even allow for it ...
    Eliza Madrigal: alone with others :)
    Aphrodite Macbain realizes she likes Eliza better with dark hair.
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha :)

    Bruce Mowbray: schooling is simple one of the things that kids have to learn to BALANCE in their lives -- and well-balanced seems more fundamentally important to "peace with oneself" than well-adjusted . . .

    oO0Oo Resident: lol
    Bleu Levasseur: if you don't fit the gvt standard model of a student, you are toast
    Eliza Madrigal: I do realize that being able to experiment was a luxury, as well....
    Wol Euler: you can talk about that on February 6th :)
    Bleu Levasseur: how long were yr kids out of school for eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Bleu, my oldest was out for hm...
    Aphrodite Macbain: Experment how Eliza? Did you teach your kids?
    Eliza Madrigal: well she went to early prek, then was out, tried going back... then was out til 4th grade....
    Bleu Levasseur: i think we teach our kids all the time, aphrodite

    Eliza Madrigal: yes I had a marvelous network... so it wasn't 'me' teaching really...

    Aphrodite Macbain: good point Beu
    Bleu Levasseur: so, til she was about 9?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, though she was in school at some points during that time
    Eliza Madrigal: we tried various balances
    Eliza Madrigal: my younger daughter loved school from the get go
    Eliza Madrigal: so was very different
    Bleu Levasseur: i think a lot of kids have to go to school far too soon
    Eliza Madrigal: well she was reading/writing at 4, and very creative/self-directed...

    oO0Oo Resident imagines furry liasons introducing timelessness curriculum into public school system, with hair and antler options for all

    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Aphrodite Macbain: the Dalai Lama talks about educating the heart as well a the mind. How could that be translated into a different curriculum?
    Bleu Levasseur: i taught my son to read when he was very young too
    Bleu Levasseur: he could read quite well when he started school
    Eliza Madrigal: that makes a huge difference
    Wol Euler nods
    Bleu Levasseur: but they made him start with the first reading primer
    Eliza Madrigal: the love they bring to things
    Aphrodite Macbain grins at Samuo
    Bleu Levasseur: he was so bored he would read with a ridiculous transatlantic accent

    Wol Euler: what that meant for my sister and I was that we already loved reading when we got to school, so it didn'T have the chance to spoil that for us

    Bleu Levasseur: like han solo in star wars
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe, cute Bleu!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes Wol!! exactly what I was thinking....
    oO0Oo Resident: time is really a gift we could give to children
    Bleu Levasseur: school spoilt reading for my daughter
    Wol Euler: so many kids are taught to hate it by having to read the wrong things at the wrong age
    Eliza Madrigal: my son is a diff. situation and surely haven't found balance there yet but... well, we'll see
    Bleu Levasseur: she did not want to learn to read pre school
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes oOOOo... a sense that there is 'enough'
    Eliza Madrigal: that they are enough

    Bleu Levasseur: when she was a little older they made the kids write a review on each book
    Eliza Madrigal: ack
    Bleu Levasseur: and she hated writing so she stopped finishing reading her books

    Aphrodite Macbain: enough time to ply as well as learn- learn thru playing
    Eliza Madrigal pictures the 'play as being' school... hehe....
    Eliza Madrigal: YES
    Bleu Levasseur: to avoid the dreaded book review
    Eliza Madrigal: :( Bleu

    Aphrodite Macbain: a play as being school- an answer to educating the heart
    Eliza Madrigal: similar is happening with my son and math
    Bleu Levasseur: oh goodness
    oO0Oo Resident: sign me up Aph!
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Wol Euler grins
    Bleu Levasseur: lovely idea aphrodite
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oops, must be going now. Time and tide waits for no avi
    Bleu Levasseur: kk
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Eliza Madrigal: but we've almost figured everything out!
    Bleu Levasseur: tc and go well, dear aphrodite
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye!
    Bleu Levasseur: byee
    oO0Oo Resident: take care Aph
    Wol Euler: bye aph
    Eliza Madrigal: right around the corner....
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: never completely though
    Eliza Madrigal: ...
    Eliza Madrigal suddenly feels guilty for sitting here... thinks of 'to do'...:)
    Wol Euler: that too is time
    Bleu Levasseur: doh. silly
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: well, that's me too. thanks so much everyone!
    Bleu Levasseur: your mind is invigorated by being here
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye oOOOo
    Wol Euler: bye sam, take care
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye sam
    Bleu Levasseur: byeee
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Lovely morning
    Wol Euler: ripen well
    Bleu Levasseur: tcsam
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... still... important to channel....
    Bleu Levasseur: are you here, bruce?
    Eliza Madrigal pinches bruce
    Bleu Levasseur: not been a lovely day in london
    Eliza Madrigal: No?
    Eliza Madrigal: cold?
    Eliza Madrigal: (bruce must be with yaku)
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Bleu Levasseur: very wet and mostly grey
    Bleu Levasseur: drip, drip, drip
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Wol Euler: :(
    Wol Euler: thawing and raining here too
    Bleu Levasseur: mix of snow and rain yesterday, today just rain
    Wol Euler: I hope the temperature holds above zero, else there'll be hell on the roads again tomorrow
    Bleu Levasseur: where are you wol?
    Wol Euler: southern Germany
    Bleu Levasseur: ah
    Eliza Madrigal: perlious...
    Bleu Levasseur: you have prob had more snow than us

    Wol Euler: it wasn't really the quantity so much as the consistency, it kept freezing and thawing and freezing again

    Bleu Levasseur: hate that
    Eliza Madrigal: eek


    Bleu Levasseur: my sl friend in singapore thinks she would die for some of our weather...
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Wol Euler: I'm off too, it's time to make dinner.
    Eliza Madrigal: sounds like my schedule freezing and thawing and freezing...
    Bleu Levasseur: kk wol ...
    Wol Euler: take care, be happy, enjoy your weekends
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Wol :) Happy weekend
    Bleu Levasseur: tc and have agood weekenf
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you Bleu
    Bleu Levasseur: d
    Eliza Madrigal: (and bye bruce and yaku wherever you are)
    Bleu Levasseur: the cat pushed my hand!
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: bye for now :))
    Bleu Levasseur: she loves snuggling up to the laptop
    Bleu Levasseur: byeee
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
    Bleu Levasseur: i will be off too
    Bleu Levasseur: bye bruce
    Bleu Levasseur: hope you ok
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now!
    Bleu Levasseur: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I was away building a fire...
    Bruce Mowbray: Walk in beauty today.

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