2011.01.14 06:00 - Time Session: Talking "About" & Adding Nothing

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    This week's time session was attended by Darren, Bleu, Pema, Maxine, Bruce, Hana, Yakuzza, Wester, and Eliza (who posted this session and made few comments). As Bleu says in one place, "Everyone needs a straight man" and she indeed asks Pema some questions that help us all to make distinctions concerning mere appearance and existence, AND to look forward to theme sessions! :D 


    Bleu Oleander: hi everyone :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza, Yaku, Bruce
    Pema Pera: hi everybody!
    Wester Kiranov: hi
    Darren Islar: hi everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Arrivers
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hello arrivers
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day - Maxine, Bleu, Pema, Wester and Darren.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: (claimed the log) Nice to see everyone
    Wester Kiranov: sorry, seem to be a bit indecent, don't know what happened
    Eliza Madrigal: how so Wester?
    Pema Pera: oh, thank you, Eliza!!
    Darren Islar: you look decent to me
    Eliza Madrigal: yw
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Pema Pera: to me too :) and feel free to come into the inner circle, decent or not :-)
    Wester Kiranov: ok, it's fin e now anyway
    Pema Pera: slow rezzing perhaps?
    Wester Kiranov: could be
    Wester Kiranov: it's a bit busy here irl so i might have to run off withourt warning
    Pema Pera: glad to see you all hear! I myself enjoyed going over three early chapters -- I hope you enjoyed the reread too!
    Pema Pera: *here
    Darren Islar: Wester, you changed into a student with backpack :))
    Pema Pera: no wonder you have to run off!
    Wester Kiranov: yeah, i panicked, i suppose :)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Wester
    Eliza Madrigal: I didn't quite finish re-reading, but took what I did read quote slowly and carefully...so nice
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Hana :)
    Pema Pera: hi there Hana!
    Darren Islar: hi Hana
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Hana.
    Hana Furlough: Hi all!
    Hana Furlough: Cool, was I just sitting in the fountain?
    Bleu Oleander: hey Hana
    Darren Islar: no on max I'm afraid :)
    Darren Islar: .
    Hana Furlough: Oops, sorry Miss Max

    Pema Pera: would anyone like to comment on the first three chapters?
    Bleu Oleander: I have a question
    Maxine Walden: Maybe we come a bit lost, me too, rl self 'forgot' about this session...not 'ready for the day' yes...
    Maxine Walden: yet
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: yes, Bleu?
    Bleu Oleander: I am able to keep my experiences fresh
    Bleu Oleander: but am having a problem keeping my words fresh
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Bleu Oleander: how can words be matched to experiences
    Pema Pera: good question indeed!
    Bleu Oleander: and is talking about experiences taking away from experience?
    Pema Pera: not necessarily, but it can be
    Darren Islar: I think we have poets and writers to do that for us
    Hana Furlough: yeah, I think it depends on * how * you talk about them
    Hana Furlough: right, darren!
    Darren Islar: it is hard to put your experiences into word

    Wester Kiranov: i think we have to be our own poets and writers as well

    Hana Furlough: yes!
    Darren Islar: right
    Bleu Oleander: especially with subjects like time
    Pema Pera: hey Adams !!!
    Darren Islar: hi Adams
    Wester Kiranov: hi adams
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Adams.
    Bleu Oleander: I find music and art help me to "touch" some of these more abstract concepts
    Darren Islar: but some can picture with words
    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone. sorry to be late
    Hana Furlough: Hi Adams
    Bleu Oleander: hi Adams
    Darren Islar: others have more problems doing so
    Darren Islar: right Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: the freshness is a key aspect for me
    Darren Islar: different 'languages'
    Bleu Oleander: otherwise I slip back into "what I know"
    Eliza Madrigal: it seems very much a matter of 'the moment'


    Hana Furlough: I think it's becoming increasingly hard because the greater society places such a premium on "facts" and "efficiency" over expressions
    Bleu Oleander: in some sense we create our reality by our choice of words
    Bleu Oleander: we make something the case by representing as such with language
    Darren Islar: that's a true thing Bleu and Hana, often we make words more important then the experience, losing the freshness
    Bruce Mowbray: Our "new" words - poetic or otherwise - become another presentation by Time - thus, available for our appreciation.

    Eliza Madrigal: ie, can discussion be a 'not doing'? if I am not comparing words in this moment to those in another, there is liveliness
    Wester Kiranov: I think we all will have to allow ourselves to communicate in the way that fits us best
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Bruce
    Wester Kiranov: and silence is communication too
    Bleu Oleander: yes Wester :)
    Darren Islar: to me making music is important
    Darren Islar: so much more subtleness you can put into it
    Bleu Oleander: that's what struck me when I re-read the first chapters .... how to construct the narative and keep it fresh
    Darren Islar: not interrupting the flow, but trying to put a word on it
    Darren Islar: but = by
    Bruce Mowbray: During the breaks here - and also in RL - I doing a simplified 'practice': " Stay with the out-breath and add nothing." That's it.
    Eliza Madrigal: well, what does it mean for something to be unfresh? that there is a kind of drag on it?
    Pema Pera: great practice, Bruce!
    Bruce Mowbray: Adding no words of comparison, analysis, judgments, "iunderstanding," ---
    Darren Islar: right
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, nods
    Bruce Mowbray: just being there -- adding nothing to the experience.
    Bleu Oleander: unfresh .... hmmm.... sameness .... not poetic in a way?
    Pema Pera: Bruce is giving an interesting que . . . .
    Pema Pera: "unfresh" may be also a form of "adding"
    Bleu Oleander: yes, exactly
    Bleu Oleander: adding pre-existing knowledge
    Bleu Oleander: pre-defined words
    Eliza Madrigal nods... like a film over things
    Pema Pera: Bleu, do you encounter the same problem in reading and in writing, or more in one than the other?
    Bleu Oleander: using the same blocks to build a fresh building

    Darren Islar: and taking away the flow, the real experience, by using the same word for different experiences, thinking the word is catching it, but getting 'stuck' to the word, forgetting about the subtle differences

    Bleu Oleander: no, that's interesting Pema
    Bleu Oleander: sometimes I'll read a book though that I feel I know it before i finish it
    Pema Pera: (yes, very tricky indeed, Darren, that one!)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Darren Islar: oh yes, no real creativity
    Eliza Madrigal: the sameness of the blocks allows us access in a way, ease of reach
    Bleu Oleander: creativity may be a key
    Darren Islar: true Eliza, and sometimes that is a good thing
    Pema Pera: specifically, with the first three chapters, did you strike you as less fresh upon second reading, Bleu (if you got a chance to reread them, that is)
    Bleu Oleander: I did re-read them
    Bleu Oleander: and this time got bogged down with the words
    Maxine Walden: (sorry, I was away re=reading the chapters)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Pema Pera: wow, Maxine, you read FAST -- it took me more than an hour!
    Eliza Madrigal: me too and I didn't get to the third :)
    Maxine Walden: oh, its called 'scanning'
    Eliza Madrigal: I stopped with one line for about 30 minutes
    Bleu Oleander: me too Eliza
    Pema Pera: can you say where and how you felt getting bogged down, Bleu?
    Maxine Walden: :) different kinds of 'reading' perhaps....
    Eliza Madrigal: heh Maxine :) superscanner
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Pema Pera: (getting bogged down can be a great thermometer/whatever for measuring where something special is going on!)
    Maxine Walden: :)

    Bleu Oleander: one sticky point for me is the difference between awareness, appearance, existence and experience
    Darren Islar: (superscanner (instead of superwom
    an) to save us from all our words :))
    Darren Islar: .
    Hana Furlough: yeah i found it hard to delineate those as well
    Maxine Walden: :))
    Pema Pera: what part is clear, Bleu, and where does it begin to be nebulous?


    Bleu Oleander: clear for me is the experience, and I use perception and attention as words to describe subjective experience, perhaps feeling a more physical encounter with reality
    Pema Pera: yes, that is the view we grow up with, after we shed our childish view of the world in terms of fairy tales
    Pema Pera: so when we can ONLY see the world in terms of existence, then yes, experience is all we got
    Bleu Oleander: seems fabulous though and I wouldn't characterize it as "all we got"
    Pema Pera: the challenge that has been facing me in writing this book, right from page one, is to convey in words what it can mean to not see the world that way -- and honestly, I don't know whether I am able to convey that in words . . . .
    Pema Pera: it's not a matter of being fabulous or not being fabulous
    Pema Pera: we can go to a fabulous restaurant one day, but perhaps to another restaurant another day
    Pema Pera: it would be a pity if the fabulousness of a restaurant would blind us for all other possibilities
    Pema Pera: but alas that is how we grow up in this culture -- the modern western culture is fundamentalist in leaving no other choice but a belief in existence . . . . so much so that I'm not sure how I can find words to point that out. Would anybody else like to try to address this point?
    Hana Furlough: I understand what you're saying Pema, but isn't there a danger in denying likes and dislikes?
    Darren Islar: (maybe we are sometimes afraid to get disappointed by that new restaurant :))
    Eliza Madrigal: I stopped not for bogging down but because everything became vivid and I wanted to stop and just dwell with that... I took the line and used it to measure my environment ... all that I was seeing.... in terms of 'existence' and 'appearance'. It didnt seem, in other words that the sentence had to give me something, but point to something, just invite
    Pema Pera: I'm not denying likes and dislikes, Hana, I'm warning against closing your eyes for other options -- you can still have preferences, of course
    Bleu Oleander: I think I don't have the words to describe what I'm saying and I don't think the restaurant metaphor is describing it
    Hana Furlough: Like having preferences, with an open mind?
    Pema Pera: yes, Hana, at least acknowledging other choices
    Eliza Madrigal: having preferences but not fixating on them, nods
    Adams Rubble: in the restaurant metaphor, whether we prefer the restaurant or not has nothing to do with the nourishent we may or may not receive
    Darren Islar: it gives you more options
    Bruce Mowbray: How about skipping all the hopes and expectations (and designs on 'outcome') by starting at the end?
    Darren Islar: being aware of it
    Eliza Madrigal: different sorts of nourishments too
    Pema Pera: can you say more, Bruce?
    Darren Islar: you can get stuck with preferences or become aware of them, quite different
    Bleu Oleander: you seem to be saying that there is something I am missing and that to me is a continuum .... a sliding scale that is subjective
    Bruce Mowbray: I can give you an example...
    Bruce Mowbray: I decided to do Tonglen with the shooter in Arizona --
    Bruce Mowbray: and found it most difficult to send him blessings...
    Bruce Mowbray: so, decided to start at the end... instead of working through the "difficulties". . .
    Bruce Mowbray: and is happened immediately.
    Bruce Mowbray: it happened*
    Bruce Mowbray: So -- got past the judgments, expectations, labels, comparisons -- and went to the end. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: and there is is.
    Bruce Mowbray: it is*
    Darren Islar: don't know Bruce..... I have a bit of a problem with that.....
    Pema Pera: thank you for sharing that, Bruce!
    Pema Pera: that does stretch our normal imagination
    Wester Kiranov: tell us darren, what problem?
    Darren Islar: it might feel like starting at the end
    Darren Islar: but maybe you just skipped something
    Darren Islar: I don't say that happened with you Bruce
    Darren Islar: but there might be a trap in it
    Darren Islar: my teacher always say
    Darren Islar: it is easy to feel compassion if you think of all sentient beings
    Darren Islar: because they don't have faces
    Darren Islar: it is in the direct confrontation where it takes place
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Darren Islar: and that is actually Tonglen
    Bruce Mowbray: I imagined the face (monstrous) that we've all seen in the media. . . and I sent blessings and healing to that persons - very specifically.
    Bruce Mowbray: person*
    Eliza Madrigal: 'getting there from here' in the no gap


    Darren Islar: as I said I don't know what happened with you and you might have taken a leap for the better, but I won't recommend it
    Darren Islar: not that I have something to recommend btw
    Pema Pera: If I can get back to Bleu's comment: [06:39] Bleu Oleander: you seem to be saying that there is something I am missing and that to me is a continuum .... a sliding scale that is subjective: Yes, the main point of the first chapters is that there really is a break between seeing the world as existing (and you as a subject seeing the world as objects) and seeing the world as sheer appearance. I see no possibility for a continuum; where do you see such a possibility? Perhaps that will help us zoom in on the main difference between our views.
    Bleu Oleander: In many ways I don't see any difference between our views
    Pema Pera: hey Corvi !!
    Pema Pera: I do, though, Bleu :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Corvi :D
    Darren Islar: hi Corvi
    Pema Pera: I see a sliding scale between mere appearance and existence
    Hana Furlough: Hi Corvi
    Bleu Oleander: I acknowlege that it's me in the subjective sense that is doing the perceiving and the world as presenting
    Pema Pera: since mere appearance is what I call the way existent things appear
    Pema Pera: but sheer appearance has no room for a self/me/ego/subject
    Bleu Oleander: the sliding scale is how much we see the encounter as back and forth
    Pema Pera: so if you start by positing that there has to be such a thing (self or me or ego or subject) then you are likely to miss the "sheer appearance" that I am talking about
    Bleu Oleander: to me, without self/me there is no encounter either as perceiving or receiving appearance
    Pema Pera: but words are tricky . . . . .
    Pema Pera: correct, Bleu :)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Pema Pera: no encounter
    Pema Pera: more a given together
    Pema Pera: no en- or per- or re- or ex- . . .
    Pema Pera: nothing to bridge
    Bleu Oleander: how do you even know what you are thinking without a self concept?
    Darren Islar: you hit the nail on the head Bleu

    Bruce Mowbray: "starting at the end" is my way of saying "nothing to bridge."

    Bleu Oleander: what nail?
    Pema Pera: there is no you then, Bleu
    Pema Pera: only awareness
    Pema Pera: the self concept is a late comer
    Darren Islar: Bleu Oleander: to me, without self/me there is no encounter either as perceiving or receiving appearance
    Pema Pera: not fundamental, and it doesn't do the real work
    Darren Islar: that nail
    Darren Islar: I understand Bruce
    Pema Pera: but this is very difficult to grasp -- even though we all have tasted it to some extent; recognizing is the hard part
    Eliza Madrigal nods ... no distance/drag... but agree there is a 'well how to express this' thing
    Bleu Oleander: the "you" is a construct without which there would be no understanding of relationships
    Eliza Madrigal: and isn't connection dependent on expressing? or so we think...
    Pema Pera: not necessarily, Bleu
    Adams Rubble: the self analyses and interprets the experience
    Bleu Oleander: how so?
    Pema Pera: how not so?
    Maxine Walden: I have a time experiment to explore right now: 30 min of rl 'getting ready' to fit into 20 min of 'time'. will let you know what happens...see you all next time
    Darren Islar: but I guess we all have problems with that 'concept' Bleu, I sure know I do
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Hana Furlough: (sneaks out from fascinating discussion -- goodnight all!)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Maxine
    Bleu Oleander: bye Hana
    Pema Pera: why do you think that a concept is necessary for making other concepts?
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Max and Hana
    Maxine Walden: bye for now
    Darren Islar: bye Han
    Pema Pera: the self concept doesn't really do much
    Bruce Mowbray: perhaps we have a choice whether to "grasp" the concept or simply to Be in the sheer experience itself (without labels or 'understanding' it).
    Bruce Mowbray: Dropping the Having of 'understandings' for the Being of sheer experience.
    Eliza Madrigal: we really do feel that we have to convey, that if we don't... not only do we not exist/connect but never did...fearful
    Darren Islar: :) Max
    Pema Pera: (and perhaps this could be a topic for one or more PaB theme sessions? I'm really very glad you brought up with fundamental question, Bleu!!)
    Pema Pera: yes, Bruce!!
    Eliza Madrigal gets pen to note pema/bleu sessions
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bleu Oleander: yes, think it could be explored more
    Pema Pera: I'd love too -- nothing is more central
    Bleu Oleander: seems central to me too
    Pema Pera: Bruce's "starting at the end" is not possible when there is a conviction that subjects and objects are real
    Bleu Oleander: the self is one of my fav subjects :)
    Pema Pera: yes, awareness seems to use you to portray that concept very lively, Bleu!
    Bleu Oleander: hahaha!
    Darren Islar: I think that is my problem with it, since we don't always know if we still think in that way and perceive something completely different
    Bruce Mowbray: I have a 'sit' at Soul's Journey starting in two minutes. . . Am going there now.
    Darren Islar: a new ego-thingy
    Bleu Oleander: everyone needs a "straight man"
    Bruce Mowbray: THANK YOU veryone.
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Bruce, bye :)
    Bruce Mowbray: May the weekend be happy and safe for us all.
    Adams Rubble: :) Bleu
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone who´s leaving
    Darren Islar: bye Bruce
    Adams Rubble: bye Bruce
    Wester Kiranov: bye bruce, bye everybody else
    Adams Rubble: I must go too. bye all :)
    Bleu Oleander: bye all leaving
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks everyone, interesting conversation, bye wester and Adams
    Pema Pera: and just one more aspect, Bleu, to finish up: while existance and sheer appearance are not continuous, I think, it is possible to oscillate between them -- so that might give some sense of continuity . . . it's all very tricky
    Darren Islar: bye who is leaving, already left :)
    Pema Pera: well, shall we stop here, and enter Eliza's session?
    Pema Pera: For next week we'll read chapters 3, 4, 5 6.
    Bleu Oleander: interesting tack Pema
    Bleu Oleander: very fun to discuss
    Eliza Madrigal: since I am posting both, I can begin/end at a natural place
    Pema Pera: yes, thank you, Bleu, I'm so glad you brought this up!

    Pema Pera: and thank everybody for a great discussion

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    and Adams was there too arriving a bit late because of commitments at work
    Posted 17:32, 23 Feb 2011
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