2012.02.05 07:00 - Happiness, Joy & Pleasure

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Agatha Macbeth. The comments are by Agatha Macbeth. As Adams has been forced by RL commitments to give up her slot (hopefully temporarily) I filled in. This turned into one of those 'heavy' discussions which I'm not really into, so I just tried to steer the boat as best I could.


    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Aggers !
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello 0 :)
    Agatha Macbeth: How are you?
    oO0Oo Resident: I'm OK.. :) How are you?
    Agatha Macbeth: Great :)
    Agatha Macbeth: You know, I've never asked...do you prefer to be called 0 or Sam?
    oO0Oo Resident: maybe 0 I guess Aggers
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Xirana :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh, right :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Sorry, I should have asked before
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Xira
    Xirana Oximoxi: hello Sam Agatha :)

    I note Xira's tag
    Agatha Macbeth: I see you love San Diego
    Xirana Oximoxi: yep :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Is that the city or the saint?
    Agatha Macbeth: :p
    Xirana Oximoxi: well the saint probably is not so much fun as the city :)
    Agatha Macbeth: No, not any more I guess
    Agatha Macbeth: He must have been dead quite a while
    Agatha Macbeth: Actually I don't know a lot about him, will have to wiki
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes... becoming worms...and then butterflies... and then a bird has eaten them and we eat the bird and...we have fun :)) ...(too complicated :))
    Agatha Macbeth: The food chain
    Xirana Oximoxi: so..probably we are a minuscul part of San Diego :))
    Agatha Macbeth crosses herself
    Xirana Oximoxi: crosses?
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Makes the sign of the cross, sorry
    Xirana Oximoxi: ahh yes )
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: the loo is just round at the cafe dear
    Agatha Macbeth: Of course, if one is vegetarian that does not apply
    Xirana Oximoxi: I explained to Sam yesterday..in San Diego, California, there's a Spanish Village Art center.... and now, some people are building it in SL
    Xirana Oximoxi: I've taken Zen there too..and he has also reserved a gallery :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh great
    Agatha Macbeth: Must come and take a look sometime
    oO0Oo Resident: I did visit your gallery an hour ago Xir.. very nice
    oO0Oo Resident: The loving lizards made me smile I will say
    Xirana Oximoxi: hehe..it¡'s a 'porno' one :))
    Agatha Macbeth: ooh
    Agatha Macbeth: Sounds interesting
    Xirana Oximoxi: haha...:)
    Agatha Macbeth: What do these lizards do exactly?
    Xirana Oximoxi: shhhhhhhhhhhhhh Sam...
    Xirana Oximoxi: that way Agg will go to visit :))
    Agatha Macbeth: I will anyway ;-)
    oO0Oo Resident: hahaha
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: my lips are sealed
    Xirana Oximoxi: making love:)
    Agatha Macbeth: Erk
    Xirana Oximoxi: good :)
    oO0Oo Resident: I will blush too much if I attempt to describe such things
    Agatha Macbeth: Can't wait now...
    Xirana Oximoxi: hehe
    oO0Oo Resident: brb
    Xirana Oximoxi: is it the normal time for Adams to be here, isn't it?
    Agatha Macbeth: She can't make this slot any more
    Xirana Oximoxi: oh
    Agatha Macbeth: because of RL commitments
    Xirana Oximoxi: ok :)
    oO0Oo Resident: back :)
    Agatha Macbeth: But will probably return eventually :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes...
    Xirana Oximoxi: wb Sam
    Agatha Macbeth: wb
    Xirana Oximoxi: I hope so :)
    Agatha Macbeth: I think it must be her busy season
    Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Brucie :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: Sam... the expression of your avi is sad... is it a strategy to think about hapiness? :)
    Agatha Macbeth: I think you look rather cute 0 :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: hello Bruce :)
    oO0Oo Resident: To know happiness.. one must also know sadness.. I feel.. What do you think?
    Xirana Oximoxi: absolutely
    Agatha Macbeth: But I can't work out if that is a bow or Mickey Mouse ears ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray waves hello to Samuo, Xir, and Aggers - and listens to catch the drift.
    Agatha Macbeth throws the drift to Bruce
    Xirana Oximoxi: jumping to one subject to another Bruce :)
    oO0Oo Resident: This is a Kiki outfit (a bow) from the Miyazaki film.. 'Kiki's Delivery Service' One of my favorites :)
    Bruce Mowbray catches drift -- and admires 0's new outfit.
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Bruce :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Interesting thought 0, whether we need to know misery to appreciate happiness

    Agatha Macbeth: For me I don't think so

    oO0Oo Resident: Arisia Vita: The sweet is never quite as sweet without the sour. (from The Vanilla Sky) Brian Shelby You can do whatever you want with your life, but one day you'll know what love truly is. It's the sour and the sweet. And I know sour, which allows me to appreciate the sweet.

    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Agatha Macbeth: isn't that Ari all over?
    oO0Oo Resident: (((Ari)))
    Agatha Macbeth: <3
    oO0Oo Resident: Maybe a good lead in to a discussion on happiness later.. is to see how it connects with sadness
    oO0Oo Resident: (different from misery IMO)
    Agatha Macbeth: I guess I'm just happy when I'm happy and sad when I'm sad
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps "happiness" is a useful and healing fiction that we build -- each in unique ways, to feed our souls.
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes, it certainly helps
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zon.
    Xirana Oximoxi: hello Zon :)
    Agatha Macbeth: The important thing is we don't delude ourselves, that can be harmful
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Znk :)
    Zon Kwan: hi
    oO0Oo Resident: maybe happiness is the absence of suffering... and in sadness.. we get to know this one kind of suffering
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Zon
    Bruce Mowbray: Isn't that a bit like saying that light is the absence of darkness?
    Agatha Macbeth: I seem to need to make a conscious effort to be happy, being sad just comes naturally!
    Zon Kwan: hm
    Bruce Mowbray: One sure way of preventing my own "happiness" is to exert effort to be happy. . .
    Zon Kwan: i think joy is more than absense of sadness
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Bruce Mowbray: rather, happiness seems to emerge while I'm doing other things...
    oO0Oo Resident: (((Aggers)))
    Agatha Macbeth smiles
    oO0Oo Resident: So how might you distinguish happiness and joy Zon?
    Bruce Mowbray: "Happiness" almost always surprises me by being there.
    Xirana Oximoxi: I also feel that to be happy one must put an effort to get it... and even then it's only for short ... so a constant fight to be positive
    Agatha Macbeth thinks of Beethoven's 9th
    Bruce Mowbray listens for Zon.
    Zon Kwan: i dont distinguish
    Zon Kwan: its just a matter of degrees
    Zon Kwan: but one could distinguish¨
    Bruce Mowbray: Do not look for rest in any pleasure, because you were not created for pleasure: you were created for joy. And if you do not know the difference between pleasure and joy you have not yet begun to live. ---- Thomas Merton
    Zon Kwan: pleasure versus pain
    Zon Kwan: and happiness that transcends
    Zon Kwan: both
    Zon Kwan: yes brice
    Zon Kwan: i think thats what i thought
    Agatha Macbeth: Bruce maybe that's where I've been going wrong ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl8VKu-t3yE
    Agatha Macbeth: Aha
    Agatha Macbeth: The glorious 9th
    Bruce Mowbray: What do you mean by "going wrong", aggers?
    Agatha Macbeth: What Mr Merton said
    Bruce Mowbray: oh -- pleasure vs joy -- I understand now.
    Agatha Macbeth: That sort of thing ssems to require a conscious effort for me
    Agatha Macbeth: What a tune
    Bruce Mowbray: "Achieving" pleasure requires both some expense and effort -- but joy seems to be free and spontaneous....
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, pleasure....now there's a whole other subject
    Xirana Oximoxi: maybe because of my English... I see also defferences in the meaning of 'pleasure, 'joy' and happiness'...
    Zon Kwan: depends how we want to define those words
    Agatha Macbeth: Spanish uses different words Xira?
    Zon Kwan: but i think the difference is in awareness
    Zon Kwan: no awareness ? pleasure
    Zon Kwan: =
    Zon Kwan: with awareness = joy
    Xirana Oximoxi: well.. we have the same words... but pleasure' is not the same as ¡happiness'
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Zon Kwan: happiness is a loose word
    Xirana Oximoxi: it may be more like 'joy' something more spontanous
    Zon Kwan: perhaps half aware
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes Zon, most people take it to mean 'carefree'
    Zon Kwan: consciousnes-bliss.being
    Zon Kwan: is inidan way to decribe
    Zon Kwan: joy
    Agatha Macbeth: Is that called samedi or something?
    Zon Kwan: sat-chit-anada
    Zon Kwan: anada
    Bruce Mowbray: sat -chit-ananda
    Zon Kwan: ananda
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, right
    Agatha Macbeth: ty
    Bruce Mowbray: (snap)
    oO0Oo Resident: I associate joy with a more transcendent quality than happiness... but just word nuances
    Zon Kwan: if i eat chocholade..it can be a pleasure
    Agatha Macbeth: It's pretty much a personal thing in many ways
    Zon Kwan: i enjoy it even if ima not aware
    Agatha Macbeth: evryone is different
    oO0Oo Resident: me imagines chocolate lemonade mixture
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: :(
    Zon Kwan: we get pleasure from dfferetn things
    Agatha Macbeth: Definitely pleasure 0 :p
    Zon Kwan: but common is
    Zon Kwan: we dont have to be aware
    Zon Kwan: just enjoy
    Zon Kwan: or our body does
    oO0Oo Resident: conditional and unconditional... Some will say we can train to become continually joyful. Perhaps Thomas Merton was this way.
    Bruce Mowbray: Merton's copntemplative monkhood seemed to find ultimate joy in "union with God."
    Zon Kwan: being-aware-joy = god
    Bruce Mowbray: My joy seems to derive from mutual participation with whatever contexts I am aware of - - - mutual sharing with an natural environment . . . for example.
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, San Diego was Saint Didacus of Alcalá...
    Agatha Macbeth: (something Xira and I were discussing earlier)
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes Bruce, can understand that
    Bruce Mowbray: Happiness, for me, seems almost always to be an emergent quality. . . not something that I can aim for specifically and achieve.
    Agatha Macbeth: Agreed
    Zon Kwan: hm
    Zon Kwan: what is...
    Agatha Macbeth: For me anyway
    Zon Kwan: you just decide
    Zon Kwan: to be happy
    Zon Kwan: one hour
    Zon Kwan: what if
    Agatha Macbeth: 'Let it be' as someone once said ;-)
    Zon Kwan: i choose to be happy
    Bruce Mowbray: I really relate to Zon's point: Hapiness is usually a decidionj to be happy. . . or to allow happiness.
    Bruce Mowbray: Happiness*
    Agatha Macbeth smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: Happiness as choice.
    Bruce Mowbray: optional.
    oO0Oo Resident: I often find that getting outside of my "self".. for instance.. becoming in the happiness of others... leads me to feel happier.
    Zon Kwan: if i decide to see thta the glass is half full instead of half empty
    oO0Oo Resident: *interested
    Agatha Macbeth: Happiness definitely seems to involve others usually, yes
    Zon Kwan: hm
    Zon Kwan: does it
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes. Getting out of my self is a requirement if happiness is to be allowed to emerge.
    Agatha Macbeth: For me
    Zon Kwan: do others define my happiness ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Dunno
    Zon Kwan: do i give that power to others
    Zon Kwan: to tell me when i can be happy
    Xirana Oximoxi: some also think that the only way to be happy is not thinking... not asking questions... living in an absolute ignorance
    Bruce Mowbray: Almost paradoxically, though, my soul's needs must also be listened to and attended to. . . . but that's not the same as "ego-self."
    Agatha Macbeth: 'Ignorance is bliss'... yes :p
    oO0Oo Resident: there is a nuance.. distinguishing between wishing for another to be happy versus wishing for another (or object) to be in relation to me in a way that will result in some form of happiness (perhaps pleasure here)
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Zon Kwan: nope, ignorance is not bliss
    Agatha Macbeth: Usually not
    Zon Kwan: bliss includes awarennes
    Xirana Oximoxi: ataraxia [ˌætəˈræksɪə], ataraxy [ˈætəˌræksɪ] n (Medicine) calmness or peace of mind; emotional tranquillity [from Greek: serenity, from ataraktos undisturbed, from a-11 + tarassein to trouble]
    Zon Kwan: if myhappiness depends on others actions i am not responsible
    Agatha Macbeth: So that's what it means, I did wonder
    Zon Kwan: gtg, see you
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zon, take care
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye Zon..have a nice day! :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: I will also go...take care all!
    oO0Oo Resident: Zon :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Adios Xira
    Xirana Oximoxi: hasta pronto :)
    oO0Oo Resident: Bye Xirana :)
    Bruce Mowbray: There is a strange, paradoxical happiness is being able to exchange one's good fortunate (health, well-being, etc) with the misery and pains of others -- as in the practice of Tonglen.
    Agatha Macbeth: Don't know that one Bruce
    Agatha Macbeth: will have to wiki again
    Bruce Mowbray: Tonglen -- taking and sending....
    Bruce Mowbray: ancient Buddhist practice....
    Bruce Mowbray: also very good for falling to sleep for insomniacs...
    oO0Oo Resident: Mind training
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.
    Agatha Macbeth: Tibetan for 'giving and taking' (or sending and receiving)...I see
    Bruce Mowbray: Pema Chodron is really big on Tonglen.
    oO0Oo Resident: http://is.gd/UuS4P5
    Bruce Mowbray: wow! THANKS for that link, 0!
    Agatha Macbeth: Am I right in thinking samúð means compassion in Icelandic?
    oO0Oo Resident: Empathy or Compassion .. yes
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, ty
    Agatha Macbeth: I always wondered
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah well...
    Agatha Macbeth: need to be moving along
    Agatha Macbeth: I got the log guys, have fun
    Bruce Mowbray: Alas, I also need to be going -- gotta get ready for the Quacker Meeting.
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, folks.
    oO0Oo Resident: :) Take care Aggers.. Bruce :::waves:::
    Agatha Macbeth waves to 0 and Brucie

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