2012.02.20 13:00 - Gracefully, Directly, Discerning Speech, Cosmos, & Life-Support-Toaster Bugs

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    The Guardian for this meeting was oO0Oo Resident. The comments are by oO0Oo Resident.

    oO0Oo Resident: Osiyo Korel
    Korel Laloix smile
    Korel Laloix: What you up to today?
    oO0Oo Resident: I'm multi-tasking.. but now that someone has arrived.. my attention is here with you.. I was working on a poem :)
    Korel Laloix: What sort?
    oO0Oo Resident: self therapy sort LOL
    Korel Laloix: I tend to only get poetic with angry.
    Korel Laloix: Oh OK>
    Korel Laloix: Any particular theme?
    oO0Oo Resident: Yes.. I have a stack of poems that I have written that help me give voice to things I would never otherwise say... in public. :)
    oO0Oo Resident: Theme is 'selfishness' I suppose
    oO0Oo Resident: loosely speaking

    Korel Laloix: What not in public?


    Korel Laloix: I tend to be overly direct....smiles
    Korel Laloix: But I am getting better I think.
    oO0Oo Resident: maybe its about balance
    Korel Laloix: Balance is one of the most deceptively easy words to say.
    oO0Oo Resident: often think edginess can be a way of sorting through long standing occurrences within ones life.. or something like that
    Korel Laloix: Not sure what you mean.. can you explain a bit further?
    Korel Laloix: If you don't mind please.
    oO0Oo Resident: at some point .. some things get sorted or leveled out.. aspects of edginess withdraw... That's what i mean about balance
    oO0Oo Resident: But it's a dynamic affair
    Korel Laloix: Oh OK.
    oO0Oo Resident: ongoing
    oO0Oo Resident: spirals
    Korel Laloix: I think people think I am edgy, and I think I have been in the past.
    oO0Oo Resident: what's your take on it.. when you say you are getting better
    oO0Oo Resident: that in context of directness
    Korel Laloix: I am getting better at not being too direct.
    Korel Laloix: I find being direct makes life easier... for me... I realize now.
    Korel Laloix: But I can catch some in a bad way.
    oO0Oo Resident: reminds me of that one Tanya Davis video I sent you..
    Korel Laloix: Which one?
    oO0Oo Resident: Subtlety Spoken Word Performance
    Wol Euler: hello sam, korel
    oO0Oo Resident: Wol :)
    Korel Laloix: OH OK.
    Korel Laloix: Bozho
    Wol Euler: brb, kitchen needs poking
    Korel Laloix: Interesting way to put that.
    oO0Oo Resident: yes :)
    oO0Oo Resident imagines a huge bonfire in the kitchen, and Wol with a fireplace poker at the door
    Korel Laloix: Maybe she has a wood oven.
    Korel Laloix: Makes lovely taste that way.
    oO0Oo Resident: :)
    Korel Laloix: It is different for me.
    oO0Oo Resident: Brings a smile.. you saying that
    Korel Laloix: I have a definite wall that I put up.
    oO0Oo Resident: yes
    oO0Oo Resident: you've been saying
    Korel Laloix: SO I am not overly open about me.
    oO0Oo Resident: me neither
    Korel Laloix: About some things.
    oO0Oo Resident: yup
    Korel Laloix: But when I want something, or want to know something, I ask.
    oO0Oo Resident: no other way
    Korel Laloix: And that sometimes makes people crazy.
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Zon ! Talking about directness of communication
    Korel Laloix: But there are somethings you just don't ask in polite conversation.
    Zon Kwan: hi
    Korel Laloix: Heya.
    Korel Laloix: And I am much better at that distinction.
    Wol Euler: back, reading
    Zon Kwan: directness depends on the group or person you are talking to
    oO0Oo Resident: I think being direct.. politely is an art form worth pursuing.. when it is possible.. and when it is called for
    Wol Euler: hello zon
    Korel Laloix: Yes, but my understanding of how to do it politely was not very good for a while.
    Korel Laloix: So my manners maybe, or discretion, is improving.
    Zon Kwan: and some people are more direct than others
    Korel Laloix: And I tend toward the over direct.


    Korel Laloix: It just makes things so much more simple.
    Korel Laloix: But it can also hurt people's feelings and make people uncomfortable.
    oO0Oo Resident: Being self reflective.. knowing your own patterns.. learning and growing... seems yes.. could simplify things
    Wol Euler nods.
    oO0Oo Resident: feel appreciation for that
    Korel Laloix: I have a reputation as have a great gaydar...
    oO0Oo Resident: grace
    Zon Kwan: there is a saying
    Korel Laloix: What it really comes down to is that I get up and go ask the person.
    Zon Kwan: if its true
    Zon Kwan: beautiful
    Wol Euler grins.
    Korel Laloix: So it makes things more workable.
    Zon Kwan: and useful
    Zon Kwan: say it
    Korel Laloix: But.... when I am wrong... it can be bad.
    Zon Kwan: otherwise don't
    Korel Laloix: Grace seems to be comming up a lot lately.
    Zon Kwan: but its nice to be nasty sometimes
    Korel Laloix: Nice to be nasty?
    Zon Kwan: just for the fun
    oO0Oo Resident: grace ... nasty
    oO0Oo Resident: looks at one hand and then the other
    oO0Oo Resident: chuckles
    oO0Oo Resident: Alf :)
    Wol Euler: ha! serendipity. I just got this IM: [13:35] The Grace Notes: To Wol Euler: @2PM today - a little Grace knee deep in The Lavender Field. Hope you can join us. Alison (101,218,22)
    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
    Wol Euler: grace everywhere
    Wol Euler: hello boxy

    red ribbon: serendipity                                                                  
     1. (n) good luck in making unexpected and fortunate discoverie 

    Zon Kwan: hi alf
    Alfred Kelberry: knee deep?
    Korel Laloix: Heya
    Samúð (oo0oo): I'm game to hear more about grace.. if others care to share

    red ribbon: grace                                                                     
     1. (n) (Christian theology) a state of sanctification by God:    
            the state of one who is under such divine influence         
     2. (n) elegance and beauty of movement or expression         
     3. (n) a sense of propriety and consideration for others         
     4. (n) a disposition to kindness and compassion                    
     5. (n) a period of time past the deadline for fulfilling an          
            obligation during which a penalty that would be imposed
            for being late is waived, especially an extended period   
            granted as a special favor                                               

    Zon Kwan: what is red ribbon ?
    Alfred Kelberry: i choose #2
    Alfred Kelberry: new guardian
    oO0Oo Resident: gracefully expressed Alf :)
    Wol Euler: look behind you :)
    Wol Euler: I'd take 3
    Wol Euler: plus 4
    Korel Laloix: Interesteing how the English can have so many uses.
    oO0Oo Resident: wonder about thoughts anyone might have on graceful programming (computer that is)
    Alfred Kelberry: woly :)
    oO0Oo Resident: such a thing?
    Alfred Kelberry: sam, it's simple - ruby :)
    Wol Euler: well, it is a trueism that a well-written program looks good as source code
    Wol Euler: perhaps that is graceful
    Korel Laloix: In math, on the theoretical side, you hear about "elegant" solutions.
    Wol Euler: (2)
    Korel Laloix: Meaning graceful I think.
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    oO0Oo Resident my thought too, (snap) Korel :)
    Alfred Kelberry: a much less known trueism is that any program contains bugs :)
    Wol Euler: oh we all know that, we just don't talk about it
    Wol Euler: it
    oO0Oo Resident: Can I take a moment to supplicate Donald Knuth
    oO0Oo Resident: He plays organ.. Bach.. graceful
    Wol Euler: it's like walking up to a stranger and saying "everyone you love will be dead someday."
    Wol Euler: true, but only a vicious sadist would say it
    Alfred Kelberry: we should talk about it
    Wol Euler: bugs? yes, people would have fewer and more realistic assumptions
    oO0Oo Resident: computer languages speak "directly" wouldn't you say?
    Alfred Kelberry: it will substantially decrease the amount of complains on mailing lists of many major libraries that they're broken cause my hello world doesn't work
    Alfred Kelberry: woly, no, the notion that your code has bugs
    Wol Euler: that's what I meant too :)
    Alfred Kelberry: um, well, yes. re: assumptions :)
    Wol Euler: but I suppose it fits both
    Wol Euler: hello bruce
    oO0Oo Resident: of course there are layers of abstractions too
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Bruce
    Wol Euler nods to Sam
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Wol, 0, Kori, and Boxy.
    oO0Oo Resident: *Speaking directly*, *grace*, among other topics :)
    Korel Laloix: Heya
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce! :)
    Bruce Mowbray listens. Thanks, 0.
    oO0Oo Resident: Did we tell Zon about the red ribbon? He asked I believe.


    Wol Euler: I said "look behind you" but he may not have heard
    Alfred Kelberry: or looked
    Wol Euler: indeed
    Bruce Mowbray: If one's camera is at or close to ground level, it's hard to see the red line.
    Wol Euler: and yes, sam, ambiguity in computer languages would be disastrous

    red ribbon: Stim Morane: “right action” is indeed “action” sometimes. But it can include other things that may be considered non-action. The distinction requires introducing more topics, and can’t be made otherwise.              http://bit.ly/wRsOjG                                                                                                                                                

    boxy (alfred.kelberry): bruce, it's intentional. i didn't want it to interfere.
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): woly, but exciting :)
    boxy (alfred.kelberry): *thinks of ghosts in the machines*
    Wol Euler: yeah
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes! Well done, boxy.
    oO0Oo Resident: Grace "functions" .. could be in a life context or a programming IDE
    Wol Euler: but do we want our life-support machines to decide to be toasters for a day, in the middle of an operation?
    Alfred Kelberry: let me think...
    Bruce Mowbray: The further I go in life, the more convinced I am that the Cosmos is gracious.
    Alfred Kelberry: i guess not :)
    Bruce Mowbray: In fact, "Cosmos" and "Gracious" might be redundant.
    Wol Euler nods to bruce

    red ribbon: cosmos                                                                                                                                            
     1. (n) everything that exists anywhere                                                                                                              
     2. (n) any of various mostly Mexican herbs of the genus Cosmos having radiate heads of variously colored   flowers and pinnate leaves; popular fall-blooming annuals                                                                                

    Alfred Kelberry: ha!
    Wol Euler: there is something essentially slow about grace, to me

    oO0Oo Resident: Larry Wall's state of the onion addresses strike me as graceful..

    Alfred Kelberry: love the first definition
    Wol Euler: I cannot imagine something being, or behaving, graceful and hasty
    Bruce Mowbray ponders "slow grace."
    oO0Oo Resident: maybe saving graces Wol?
    Alfred Kelberry: larry wall at the union?
    Korel Laloix: Some ballet dances can do quick and graceful.
    Korel Laloix: But I imagine it is not easy.
    Wol Euler: a fine counter example, korel, thank you :)
    Korel Laloix: But that is physical grace.
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh, you're talking about grace in movement...
    Bruce Mowbray: I was using the term a different way.
    oO0Oo Resident: @Boxy Larry Wall
    Wol Euler: yes, but also thinking of people I've known who had grace, they were all pretty slow
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, in various contexts, whichever you choose
    Wol Euler: tended to think before speaking, look around before moving

    red ribbon: grace                                                                     
     1. (n) (Christian theology) a state of sanctification by God:    
            the state of one who is under such divine influence         
     2. (n) elegance and beauty of movement or expression         
     3. (n) a sense of propriety and consideration for others         
     4. (n) a disposition to kindness and compassion                    
     5. (n) a period of time past the deadline for fulfilling an          
            obligation during which a penalty that would be imposed
            for being late is waived, especially an extended period   
            granted as a special favor                                               

    Samúð (oo0oo): Korel ? (I wanted to hear you more on) Grace?
    Korel Laloix: I was talking of physical grace then.
    Wol Euler: (thinking here of 4 particularly)
    Alfred Kelberry: sam, i know who larry wall is :) i've no idea what he'd be doing at the state of the union.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, #4 definition is how I view Cosmos.
    Korel Laloix: I think reacting in just the right way to a serious insult is a grace as well.
    Bruce Mowbray: "skillful" ? Kori?
    Korel Laloix: And that is quick... but I agree.. most grace is slow.
    oO0Oo Resident: *onion* Boxy
    Korel Laloix: Yes.. I think that would work.
    Korel Laloix: All these considerations are why I love the word and the name.
    Bruce Mowbray ponders "hasty" and "slow" as how much time/space occurs between events.
    Alfred Kelberry: gah, these onions again
    Wol Euler: true, korel
    Bruce Mowbray eyes are watering.
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: Some might say the union of heaven and Earth expressed through humans.. the coordination of body and mind.. is grace, or yields grace
    Wol Euler: (I'm going to leave in 6 minutes for a direct experience of Grace :) McDunnough that is
    Wol Euler: a wonderful singer
    oO0Oo Resident: bread baker, orator, programmer.. in the flow... graceful
    Bruce Mowbray wants to replace all the windows in his dwelling with "Windows of Happiness" like boxy's
    Alfred Kelberry: hehe
    Alfred Kelberry: wait, it's a secret project. you don't see it :)
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, I see it.
    oO0Oo Resident: OK Thanks Wol
    Alfred Kelberry: but... but... :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- OK -- I don't see it.
    Alfred Kelberry: hehe
    Bruce Mowbray: sry.
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Korel Laloix: See what?
    Wol Euler: is that like a window of opportunity?
    Alfred Kelberry: it's my happiness project
    Wol Euler: ah
    Alfred Kelberry: hence - you don't see anything :)
    Bruce Mowbray: kk, I don't see anything.
    Korel Laloix: lol
    Bruce Mowbray: (but is this "grace"?)
    Korel Laloix: A broken invisible window now.
    Bruce Mowbray: me loves boxy's happiness project -- already!
    oO0Oo Resident feels graced by Bruce and Korels presence .. riding round
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: very gracious of you, Samuo.
    Bruce Mowbray feels this might be as close as he ever gets to the Cherokee Nation.
    Korel Laloix: lol
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh dear Here is a window!


    Bruce Mowbray: what will happen!!!???
    Alfred Kelberry: *watches bruce slowly coming up to the window of happiness*
    Wol Euler: bye, dear friends, take care
    Alfred Kelberry: aww
    Korel Laloix: Ciao
    Alfred Kelberry: too soon
    Wol Euler: anyone want to come along, just IM me for a TP
    Alfred Kelberry: where?
    Alfred Kelberry: i missed something
    Korel Laloix: A concert.
    Alfred Kelberry: oh
    Alfred Kelberry: who's playing?
    Korel Laloix: McDunnough
    Alfred Kelberry: don;t know
    Korel Laloix: NOt sure who that is though.
    oO0Oo Resident: You all might know Vorder Forder. Well he shared a lovely music video of Snatam Kaur about Grace
    Alfred Kelberry: never heard of both :)
    oO0Oo Resident: :) Vorder is from Iceland and a member of PaB... very nice fellow.
    Alfred Kelberry: ah
    Korel Laloix: Not my style of music.. but nice lyrics.
    Korel Laloix: That was a nice short short.
    Korel Laloix: Take care all.
    Korel Laloix: Off to another chat.
    Alfred Kelberry: be good :)
    Korel Laloix: ciao
    oO0Oo Resident: Take care korel :))
    oO0Oo Resident: Thought of few more function requests for the ribbon Boxy ;)
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, listening :)
    Alfred Kelberry: nah, looks too heavy
    oO0Oo Resident: 'census' OR 'roll' might list who is present, Then you could possibly implement a rendering cost list
    Alfred Kelberry: well, i do a script count and memory usage with the ecobox
    oO0Oo Resident: A more ambitious feature might be like a "topic slate".. allowing people to add keywords to a list, that newly arriving avies could refer to, to catch up on topics that have been discussed.. then the list or slate could be emptied again


    Alfred Kelberry: sam, good idea, but i doubt people will be adding any words :)
    Alfred Kelberry: involvment of this kind requires a real value for the participant
    oO0Oo Resident: Well, my thought was, it could be like an action board, but discrete. A guardian for instance (but others too), could use a command to add to a list of key points that have transpired. Then when people arrive late, they can key in a command, that brings up that list, and they are somewhat up to date, without people needing to copy and paste into note cards for them which can be distracting and labor intensive in the moment.
    Bruce Mowbray thinks -- "Wow! Great idea, 0!"
    oO0Oo Resident: Thanks Bruce.. Well.. I would use it anyway :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I would also use it. . . but hope to arrive here on time., most days (unlike today).
    oO0Oo Resident: Well.. that's a point I suppose.. it could encourage tardiness
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: I never thought of that!
    oO0Oo Resident: Anyways.. just some ideas
    Bruce Mowbray: tardiness -- as in Wol's concept of "slow grace"....
    Bruce Mowbray: but Wol did not say "tardy" -- only "slow"
    Bruce Mowbray wonders if Boxy is conscious.
    Bruce Mowbray: Whoa! So cool -- your hover text!!!
    oO0Oo Resident: hehe .. yes a preliminary play with the idea.. but I think too distracting, out in the open like this
    oO0Oo Resident: OK Bruce.. Shall we walk over to your place?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm....
    Bruce Mowbray ponders "distracting."
    oO0Oo Resident: See you soon
    oO0Oo Resident: Bye Boxy!

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