2019.01.08 11:30 - Dream Session: Meaning, Time, and the Theater of the Dream

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    Attending were Riddle, Zen, Tura, Alma, Agatha, and Eliza.

     
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen! Happy New Year :)
    Zen (zen.arado): Happy New Year
    Eliza Madrigal: Restful holiday?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :)
    Tura Brezoianu: hi Eliza, Zen
    Zen (zen.arado): glad it's over
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Tura
    Eliza Madrigal: really?
    Eliza Madrigal: Was it disruptive for you?
    Zen (zen.arado): I just hate Christmas
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
     
     
     
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Aggers
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Ello
    Agatha Macbeth: Here we are again
    Eliza Madrigal: we are :) here again
    Zen (zen.arado): appy as can be
    Eliza Madrigal: my great grandmother used to sing, to wake us up, "We're all in our places with bright shiny faces..."
    Agatha Macbeth: Of course
    Eliza Madrigal: "And this is the way, to start a new day..." ;-)
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Agatha Macbeth: In bed, right
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Eliza Madrigal: I wish someone would wake me like that now
    Eliza Madrigal: ^.^
    Tura Brezoianu: and replying "you wuh?"
    Eliza Madrigal: ha ha
    Agatha Macbeth: Get George to do it
    Eliza Madrigal: He'd have to let me sleep first
    Agatha Macbeth: Woof
    Eliza Madrigal: 2 am last night, decides he is thirsty, goes into the living room to scratch at the bottom of his metal bowl
    Agatha Macbeth: Here's Alma
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alma :) Happy New Year
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): hi Agatha, Eliza, Tura, Zen
    Zen (zen.arado): How would you like careworkers with freezing cold hands rip the duvet and underpants off you
    Tura Brezoianu: hi Alma
    Agatha Macbeth: No thanks
    Zen (zen.arado): hi Alma
    Eliza Madrigal: I'll pass too
    Eliza Madrigal: :/
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): oh dear, Zen :(
    Eliza Madrigal: for now anyway
     
    Eliza Madrigal: Did everyone keep some sort of dream practice over the break?
    Zen (zen.arado): you get used to it :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen (zen.arado): oh yes
    Agatha Macbeth looks round
    Tura Brezoianu: I recorded a few dreams, but that's about all
     
    Zen (zen.arado): I must be the little swot
    Zen (zen.arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: still, sounds encouraging
    Eliza Madrigal: swot?
    Agatha Macbeth: Swot team
    Zen (zen.arado): the little guy at school who works harder than everyone
    Tura Brezoianu: Is that not a word in American?
    Zen (zen.arado): which I never did
    Agatha Macbeth: Not the janitor...
    Eliza Madrigal: Not to me, interetsing
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I have not been sleeping well, and my dream recall is sketchy for now, but at least I am keeping up my journal
    Zen (zen.arado): is also a verb
    Agatha Macbeth: I can't spell that either
    Zen (zen.arado): means to study hard
    Eliza Madrigal: nice
    Eliza Madrigal files away fancy new word
    Zen (zen.arado): as in "I'll have to swot up on that"
     
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I think I did come close to having a WILD one night
    Eliza Madrigal: excellent
    Eliza Madrigal: my practice felt to deepen a little, and spill more into daily life
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Riddle :)
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Riddle
    Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Rid
    Riddle Sideways: HI All, nice warm fire
    Eliza Madrigal: Want to give an overview of what has been happening for you, Zen?
    Zen (zen.arado): well I have had a bit of trouble sleeping
    Zen (zen.arado): because I got a new airflow Marquis
    Zen (zen.arado): mattress
    Agatha Macbeth: A what?
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh
    Zen (zen.arado): if anyone doesn't know it's a kind of air bed with rows of tubes that keep inflating and deflating
    Zen (zen.arado): it has a compressor
    Agatha Macbeth: Sorry, I thought of Marquis de Sade for some reason
    Eliza Madrigal: So you have to figure out the right settings for you
    Zen (zen.arado): the idea is to stop people getting pressure sores
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah
    Agatha Macbeth: Hm
    Zen (zen.arado): the compressor is quite noisy and the  bed is very soft and it's a weird feeling it wriggle underneath you
    Zen (zen.arado): but I'm getting used to it
    Zen (zen.arado): I can't turn over on my side either but that doesn't seem to have caused me as many problems as I thought
    Zen (zen.arado): I just lie on m
     
    Zen (zen.arado): I tried analysing one of my dreams using the technique that comes up in the next exercise
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Zen (zen.arado): perhaps we could hear Alma's dream first though
    Zen (zen.arado): ?
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): all right, if you want
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm fine either way.
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): just a moment...
    Zen (zen.arado): I  have to post some stuff before I do the exercise anyway
     
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): this happened at the end of a long series of dreams. I dreamed I was in a polling place, and then decided to leave before voting
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): then there was this:
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I leave this polling place and walk down the street to another polling place closer to home. I decide to go in there to vote. It is like an abandoned movie theater. As I go through the door, I am very close to waking up. The dream has faded and is more like a waking fantasy. I think to myself that, of course, I'm dreaming. Then it becomes more distinct. I can see my hands and my feet more clearly, as I am pushing the door open to enter. I wonder if I am on the verge of experiencing a WILD. I become excited about that, and wake up.
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): [end]
     
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Eliza Madrigal: theater of the mind :)
    Zen (zen.arado): you got too wild :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Agatha Macbeth: Where the wild things are
    Eliza Madrigal: What did you feel about it?
     
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I could definitely sense the dream starting to re-form after almost waking up.
    Eliza Madrigal: ooh
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I could see my hands becoming more clear and visible
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): and thought to myself, could this be a WILD starting to happen?
    Zen (zen.arado): that's good
     
    Eliza Madrigal: did it feel like the reel was contracting or being pulled back in, or opening?
    Eliza Madrigal: (not sure if the question makes sense, but wondering about the sensation)
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): reel?
    Eliza Madrigal: like, the story or setting re-engaging
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): yes, something like that
    Riddle Sideways: wow, so close
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): like becoming more immersed in the fantasy/dream, so that it was becoming more vivid
    Zen (zen.arado): was this last thing before waking in the morning?
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): yes, it was at the very end of my sleep cycle
    Eliza Madrigal: great, thank you
     
    Zen (zen.arado): That seems to be the only time when I can get back into dreams
    Zen (zen.arado): but it happens very rarely
    Eliza Madrigal nods, rare
    Zen (zen.arado): I wake in the middle of the night and can't get back to sleep for an hour or two usually
    Riddle Sideways: those end of night/start of day dreams seemed forced
    Riddle Sideways: and discounted
    Eliza Madrigal: over the break, Riddle?
    Zen (zen.arado): some of the authors seems to think they were the best dreams
    Zen (zen.arado): and that was the prime time for recording dreams
    Riddle Sideways: seems to be forced to go certain ways conscience wants
    Zen (zen.arado): it works better for me just because I wake up and remember the dreams then instead of going back to sleep and forgetting them
    Zen (zen.arado): I often find that early dreams are more likely to be daytime residue
    Eliza Madrigal: curious comment Riddle
    Zen (zen.arado): things I was thinking about before going to bed
    Riddle Sideways: hmmm, was thinking the opposite Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: all of us have very different ways of using energy during the day
    Zen (zen.arado): well we are all different
    Riddle Sideways: good thing
    Zen (zen.arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: probably the consolidation process happens in different periods
     
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I sometimes have dreams very early in the night that are very emotional, almost but not quite nightmares
    Riddle Sideways: but, but, but some books say the dreams are a certain way
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): but usually I don't remember anything from early in the night
    Riddle Sideways: recorder has helped
    Zen (zen.arado): I would remember them better if I wasn't so lazy and recorded them
    Riddle Sideways: ummm, if remembered :(
    Eliza Madrigal: that's good, yes that is the same for me... lots of dreaming but sometimes I'm so confident that I'll remember that I don't record
    Zen (zen.arado): yes that's a problem Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: I do have a sense of trust that the ones I really need to remember, will come back up, though
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes that happens during the waking day
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I always record if I can, because I know I will forget otherwise
    Zen (zen.arado): the confident trickster
     
    Eliza Madrigal: I woke in a dreamy state on new years day, with a 'voice' on the boundary of wake/sleep
    Zen (zen.arado): I find I am remembering dreams better and can transcribe them without having to consult my recorder
    Zen (zen.arado): oh ?
    Riddle Sideways listens
    Eliza Madrigal: it felt sort of Christmas Carol
    Eliza Madrigal: "Don't run out the clock on the rest of your life"
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): was it past, present, or future?
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): oh
    Zen (zen.arado): Dickens has a lot to answer for :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe due to new years countdowns, and mixtures of goals outlooks for the year to come
    Eliza Madrigal: however, it led to a rich sort of unpacking process
    Eliza Madrigal: as I looked up 'running out the clock' and what that means in sports terms etc
    Eliza Madrigal: it is sort of, protecting what you have, rather than venturing
    Zen (zen.arado): like a soccer team who are ahead and try to slow the game down
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Eliza Madrigal: I credit this kind of clear 'guidance' to dream practice
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): using up the time without really doing anything
    Zen (zen.arado): how would you do that in life ?
    Eliza Madrigal: almost being out of the game entirely
    Zen (zen.arado): Being afraid to try new things?
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm always doing that, but I didn't see it...
    Zen (zen.arado): Getting into a rut
    Eliza Madrigal: sort of
     
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): in sports it is sometimes the best strategy, but maybe not so much in life
    Eliza Madrigal: different seasons require different ways
    Zen (zen.arado): life usually digs us back out again
    Tura Brezoianu: sticking where you are with "enough" and never going further?
    Eliza Madrigal: basically, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: or being hesitant to push others out of comfort zones
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): there is also the expression, "killing time"
    Eliza Madrigal: right!
    Zen (zen.arado): comfort zones
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Eliza Madrigal: And, I learned there is the expression 'eating clock'
    Eliza Madrigal: weird, right?
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): never heard that one!
    Riddle Sideways: yes, like seasons. the rain here is just so nice to stop and watch it
    Zen (zen.arado): me neither
    Riddle Sideways: is Am. football term
    Riddle Sideways: and some basketball
     
    Zen (zen.arado): there is an opposite
    Zen (zen.arado): running around always looking for novelties and distractions
    Zen (zen.arado): more like me
    Agatha Macbeth: Pleasures and wayward distractions
    Riddle Sideways: looking to yer phone for new distractions?
    Eliza Madrigal: that's why we need personal insights... it is too easy to look at general tendencies and try to provide for every one
    Eliza Madrigal: Ready to share your dream Zen?
     
    Zen (zen.arado): and who knows the right balance
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Zen (zen.arado): ok
    Eliza Madrigal: we do, somewhere in there :))
     
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe I better post the exercise first
    Eliza Madrigal: ok
     
    Zen (zen.arado): EXCERCISE: Entering the Realm of the Living Dream 
     
    Select a vivid dream to work with. Sometimes this is an obvious choice; perhaps the dream you had last night was so compelling that it hasn’t let go of you all day. Or maybe there is a dream from the past that has continued to come into your thoughts again and again. Whatever dream you choose, or whichever dream chooses you, write or draw it in detail before going further. When you are ready, find a quiet place and get settled.
     
    Zen (zen.arado): Reconnect with your body in whatever way you know. You may want to pay attention to your breathing. Notice how you begin to relax and deepen into your body sensations. Allow any thoughts that arise to gently pass through your mind, like clouds floating easily through the sky. Return to your breath. Allow your mind to clear and let go of any interpretations of the dream that you might be considering. Relax in your chair or couch. Take a few moments to feel your presence in the room.
     
    Zen (zen.arado): Next read the text of the dream aloud to yourself or take a few moments to really witness the sketch that you have drawn. See the entire dream in your mind’s eye, just as you saw it the first time you dreamt it. Imagine that you are in the theater of dream, participating in a live performance. Notice carefully how entering this dream theater makes you feel. What emotions come up? What physical sensations arise in your body? Write down your observations in your journal.
     
    Eliza Madrigal: "in the theater of the dream" !
     
    Zen (zen.arado): By bringing yourself into the dream in an active and responsive way, in present time, you begin to open to the consciousness of the dream. You leave your daytime world ever so slightly behind, and begin to walk into the dream world. You are meeting the dream in the way of the dream.
     
    Agatha Macbeth: !
     
    Zen (zen.arado): Begin to move forward, further and further into the dream. It is no longer an inanimate object that you are going to pick apart. You begin to see it as it really is—a living reality that is here and now. Now close your eyes and notice your breathing. As you bring your focus to your body, observe where you are feeling tight. Allow your inhaling to naturally deepen, then bring your awareness back to the dream. Notice what you observe and write it down.
     
    Aizenstat, Stephen. Dream Tending: Awakening to the Healing Power of Dreams (p. 29). Spring Journal, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
    Zen (zen.arado): Done
     
    Eliza Madrigal: that's beautifully written
    Zen (zen.arado): para before last is most important I think
    Zen (zen.arado): now my dream
     
    Zen (zen.arado): I had found a new job. The man who hired me told me I would get £11,500 per year – not very much I thought, as he drove off in his car. I was in a big room with a bunch of men and women and all we did all day was write messages on irregularly shaped pieces of paper and stick them on a board. I read some of the messages but they were pretty meaningless. One of them was insulting me. I knew who had written it and looked at her, but she just smiled. At the end of the day we took all the messages off, starting again the next morning.
    Zen (zen.arado): now what O got from it:
    Agatha Macbeth: O?
    Zen (zen.arado): I felt: disappointment and then anger at the man as he drove away in his car – anger that he could get away with paying me and others so little. I also felt a little anger at the woman who had put a main comment about me on the board. But the overall emotion was of frustration at the meaninglessness of it all. I didn't feel I was achieving anything and it was all a waste of time.
    Zen (zen.arado): I :)
    Zen (zen.arado): Done
     
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah
    Eliza Madrigal: aw, not a very uplifting feeling
    Agatha Macbeth: Had me wondering
    Zen (zen.arado): I'm sure you could all do this better than me
    Zen (zen.arado): mean comment it should be
    Zen (zen.arado): I was trying to feel the emotions
    Eliza Madrigal: hoping you'll say more. Any connections?
    Riddle Sideways: you expressed the emotions in the writing
    Zen (zen.arado): well the meaningless messages will be Facebook or something
    Eliza Madrigal understands that
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): is there anything in your waking life that has a similar kind of feeling?
    Zen (zen.arado): general life online
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, that makes a lot of sense
    Zen (zen.arado): actually I had that dream on December 31
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): interesting
    Riddle Sideways: new years eve
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Eliza Madrigal: FB is sort of a timewaster now... so few people use it for substantive discourse
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe there's something about the meaningless of many jobs
    Agatha Macbeth: True
    Zen (zen.arado): I have spiritual discussions with a woman
    Eliza Madrigal: that was part of the feeling that led to my insight too.. or whatever one wants to call it... where is time wasted? Your time wasn't valued in the dream.
     
    Zen (zen.arado): I sometimes wonder if there is any point
    Zen (zen.arado): I generally feel a bit depressed over Christmas and New Year and then pick up in the New Year again
    Zen (zen.arado): I have never found a solution for that
    Eliza Madrigal: what do you hate about Christmas? feels meaningless?
    Zen (zen.arado): something about the whole forcedness
    Zen (zen.arado): you have to do this you have to do that even though a lot of the things are silly and pointless
    Zen (zen.arado): but that's just me
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't think so.... think a lot of people feel that way
    Zen (zen.arado): when I was working I enjoyed having a week off and a good rest
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I don't exchange Christmas cards or presents with anyone any more, and I don't miss it at all
    Riddle Sideways: point/pointless.   Fav movie "The Point"
    Zen (zen.arado): when most people don't agree with me and they try to chivy me
    Zen (zen.arado): tells me I shouldn't be on my own at Christmas even though I spend every day on my own rest of the year :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: HA 
    Zen (zen.arado): I'm not a Christian either so why should I celebrate a Christian feast
    Agatha Macbeth: Is it?
    Zen (zen.arado): well supposed to be?
    Agatha Macbeth: Exactly
     
    Tura Brezoianu: It's got broader and broader.
    Zen (zen.arado): It's more  a retail feast I think
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): you can also treat it as a solstice celebration
    Eliza Madrigal: I rebel consciously, but still try to do the basics
    Tura Brezoianu: Hanukwanzaadiwalisolsticemas :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Bless you
    Zen (zen.arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: feats of strength and airing of grievances
    Riddle Sideways: exactly, Tura
    Agatha Macbeth: Geschwindischkeitsbeschräankung
    Zen (zen.arado): dream wasn't unhappy though
    Tura Brezoianu: Gesundheit :)
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): the church near my house always puts out a sign, "Keep Christ in Christmas". whenever I drive past, I think, If that works for you then fine, but don't tell me how to celebrate my holiday.
    Zen (zen.arado): it was more wondering what it was all about
    Eliza Madrigal: Christ must live in the mall
    Eliza Madrigal: I think the holidays can accentuate areas we feel generally
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Tura Brezoianu: "Et in arcade ego"
    Agatha Macbeth: He probably gets plagued by mormons
    Zen (zen.arado): :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Carpe diem
     
    Zen (zen.arado): one thing I'm resolving to do this year is to look for more detail in my dreams
    Zen (zen.arado): I should notice the clothes people are wearing
    Agatha Macbeth: (If any)
    Riddle Sideways: please, stick to that one, zen
    Eliza Madrigal: the technique you shared may help... drawing or writing, getting used to thinking about those things and asking those questions
    Zen (zen.arado): remember Gaya and the amount of detail in her dreams?
    Eliza Madrigal: In Luci's group, they pay attention to directions, and before I heard about that, I never thought to look
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh yes
    Agatha Macbeth: Yay Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: Wol too, but I'm sure being an architect helps
    Zen (zen.arado): I'm more of an Impressionist dreamer
    Agatha Macbeth: Wol and her railway stations
    Zen (zen.arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Riddle Sideways: have started noticing more and more, thanks to y'all
    Agatha Macbeth: You'd think airports would be more likely
     
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes general things can be very powerful though... just the sensibilities coming through
    Eliza Madrigal: that's nice to hear, Riddle
    Agatha Macbeth: I'm not sensiblr, so don't qualify
    Zen (zen.arado): yes Riddle
    Eliza Madrigal: :P Agatha
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm always interested in presence
    Eliza Madrigal: and in carrying that into the rest of life
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe it is how I feel connected, find meaning
     
    Zen (zen.arado): I just thought – does anyone know the Chinese room thought experiment?
    Zen (zen.arado): I wonder if that has anything to do with the dream
    Agatha Macbeth: Nope
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I've heard of it, but can't remember the details just now
    Tura Brezoianu: yes, and I see how the dream suggests it
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Riddle Sideways: listens
    Zen (zen.arado): I can't remember all the details of it
    Zen (zen.arado): but it's something about trying to determine if computers actually think
    Zen (zen.arado): and people past bits of paper into a room but the person in the room only has a dictionary so he looks up the word and then passes the translation out again
    Zen (zen.arado): and you could say that that's all computers do
    Zen (zen.arado): something like that
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe you could improve on that Tura?
    Agatha Macbeth: Computers only do what they're told
    Zen (zen.arado): of course all that is changing with AI
     
    Tura Brezoianu: The Chinese Room:
    Tura Brezoianu: Someone sits in a room. room time to time strange symbols are shown to them. They have a giant book that tells them what symbols to make in response, so they do.
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): being able to apply a rule, even a very complex one, does not necessarily imply understanding?
    Tura Brezoianu: The symbols in fact are Chinese text, and the book tells them how to respond to any utterance.
    Tura Brezoianu: But the person in the room knows nothing of this and does not know Chinese.
    Zen (zen.arado): yes that's great Tura
    Tura Brezoianu: And some sort of philosophical consequence is drawn from this.
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): reminds me of some college classes I took
    Eliza Madrigal: sounds like 'normal' dream interpretation
    Tura Brezoianu: I think it's supposed to show that computers can't understand anything, they just follow rules
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh right I've heard of that
    Eliza Madrigal: symbol = such n such
    Agatha Macbeth: Isn't it some kind of analog thing?
     
    Zen (zen.arado): isn't it just that computers can only do what they're programmed to do and will never be able to think for themselves?
    Eliza Madrigal: there is a neat question about paperclips, along those lines  [see below]
    Eliza Madrigal: also, yes, AI ... experiment designed prior to alpha Go :)
    Riddle Sideways listens about paperclips
    Tura Brezoianu: Listens for paperclips
    Agatha Macbeth: Project paperclip?
    Zen (zen.arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I can't... but I will attach a link or explanation to the log. It is about, a computer programmed to optimise everything to make paperclips
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh
    Agatha Macbeth: Wow
    Zen (zen.arado): And the world becomes a paperclip?
    Agatha Macbeth: Now there's something I haven't used for years
    Agatha Macbeth: WB Rid
    Eliza Madrigal: it could... one of the central questions or scenarios they describe
    Tura Brezoianu: The idea that a superintelligent AI let loose on the world is likely to just try to turn everything into paperclips, or something equally disastrous?
    Zen (zen.arado): ah
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: people do this too, but we check each other maybe :)))
     
    Zen (zen.arado): Machines programming themselves and improving each time
    Zen (zen.arado): I think they did that with the go game
    Eliza Madrigal: The alpha go situation is so interseting
    Eliza Madrigal: ack
    Eliza Madrigal: INTERESTING
    Zen (zen.arado): machine just played itself over and over again
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe I need to get rid of that word :)
    Zen (zen.arado): they say it only took about four hours
    Eliza Madrigal: the thing is, it eventually made a 'creative' move
    Agatha Macbeth: Funny how I can't spell it either
    Zen (zen.arado): whereas the deep blue program that beat Kasparov took years
    Eliza Madrigal: or a seemingly creative move
    Tura Brezoianu: We know now what androids dream of: dogs everywhere, with too many eyes.
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Agatha Macbeth: Not electric sheep then
    Eliza Madrigal: there is a good doc about alpha go... I think still on netflix
    Zen (zen.arado): they say that's how they know someone is using a computer in chess tournaments – computer moves are too creative
    Zen (zen.arado): isn't that paradoxical
    Eliza Madrigal: and another about the game itself, called The Surrounding Game, but that was made just before alphago
    Agatha Macbeth: Hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: wow, I've never heard that Zen
    Agatha Macbeth: One guy hid a phone in the toilet
     
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay... have stayed too long :) have to run before the bank closes today
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Agatha Macbeth: Got the log
    Zen (zen.arado): ok thanks for coming everyone
    Agatha Macbeth: ?
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I need to run too
    Zen (zen.arado): hope someone tries exercise
    Eliza Madrigal: I'll grab it before hitting close
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): good to see you all again
    Eliza Madrigal: I intend to Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: lovely to see you Alma
    Eliza Madrigal: and everyone :) Sorry about missing last week
    Riddle Sideways: thanks All
    Agatha Macbeth: Again
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I forgot all about last week too
    Tura Brezoianu: thanks all, good evening
    Riddle Sideways: missed it too
    Eliza Madrigal: >whew<
    Agatha Macbeth: Bysie bye
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Tura :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye :)
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): bye for now, have a good week
    Agatha Macbeth: Skaters of the world unite
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
     
    Agatha Macbeth: What big eyes you have grandma
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Do I
    Agatha Macbeth: Mhm
    Eliza Madrigal: Better to see what I want to see and disregard the rest
    Eliza Madrigal: >hums<
    Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Okay... got the log and am on my way now
    Eliza Madrigal: hugs <3
    Agatha Macbeth: See you Thu
    Agatha Macbeth: ♥
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, see you then!

     

     

    Paperclip maximizer
    via Wikipedia under “Instrumental Convergence”

    The paperclip maximizer is a thought experiment described by Swedish philosopher Nick Bostrom in 2003. It illustrates the existential risk that an artificial general intelligence may pose to human beings when programmed to pursue even seemingly-harmless goals, and the necessity of incorporating machine ethics into artificial intelligence design. The scenario describes an advanced artificial intelligence tasked with manufacturing paperclips. If such a machine were not programmed to value human life, then given enough power its optimized goal would be to turn all matter in the universe, including human beings, into either paperclips or machines which manufacture paperclips.[4]

    Suppose we have an AI whose only goal is to make as many paper clips as possible. The AI will realize quickly that it would be much better if there were no humans because humans might decide to switch it off. Because if humans do so, there would be fewer paper clips. Also, human bodies contain a lot of atoms that could be made into paper clips. The future that the AI would be trying to gear towards would be one in which there were a lot of paper clips but no humans.
    — Nick Bostrom, as quoted in "Artificial Intelligence May Doom The Human Race Within A Century, Oxford Professor Says".[5]

    Bostrom has emphasised that he does not believe the paperclip maximiser scenario per se will actually occur; rather, his intention is to illustrate the dangers of creating superintelligentmachines without knowing how to safely program them to eliminate existential risk to human beings.[6] The paperclip maximizer example illustrates the broad problem of managing powerful systems that lack human values.[7]

    Version as of 01:56, 9 Jan 2019

    This revision modified by eliza (Ban)

    Attending were Riddle, Zen, Tura, Alma, Agatha, and Eliza.

     
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen! Happy New Year :)
    Zen (zen.arado): Happy New Year
    Eliza Madrigal: Restful holiday?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :)
    Tura Brezoianu: hi Eliza, Zen
    Zen (zen.arado): glad it's over
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Tura
    Eliza Madrigal: really?
    Eliza Madrigal: Was it disruptive for you?
    Zen (zen.arado): I just hate Christmas
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
     
    dream session_002.jpg
     
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Aggers
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Ello
    Agatha Macbeth: Here we are again
    Eliza Madrigal: we are :) here again
    Zen (zen.arado): appy as can be
    Eliza Madrigal: my great grandmother used to sing, to wake us up, "We're all in our places with bright shiny faces..."
    Agatha Macbeth: Of course
    Eliza Madrigal: "And this is the way, to start a new day..." ;-)
    Zen (zen.arado): :)
    Agatha Macbeth: In bed, right
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Eliza Madrigal: I wish someone would wake me like that now
    Eliza Madrigal: ^.^
    Tura Brezoianu: and replying "you wuh?"
    Eliza Madrigal: ha ha
    Agatha Macbeth: Get George to do it
    Eliza Madrigal: He'd have to let me sleep first
    Agatha Macbeth: Woof
    Eliza Madrigal: 2 am last night, decides he is thirsty, goes into the living room to scratch at the bottom of his metal bowl
    Agatha Macbeth: Here's Alma
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alma :) Happy New Year
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): hi Agatha, Eliza, Tura, Zen
    Zen (zen.arado): How would you like careworkers with freezing cold hands rip the duvet and underpants off you
    Tura Brezoianu: hi Alma
    Agatha Macbeth: No thanks
    Zen (zen.arado): hi Alma
    Eliza Madrigal: I'll pass too
    Eliza Madrigal: :/
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): oh dear, Zen :(
    Eliza Madrigal: for now anyway
     
    Eliza Madrigal: Did everyone keep some sort of dream practice over the break?
    Zen (zen.arado): you get used to it :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen (zen.arado): oh yes
    Agatha Macbeth looks round
    Tura Brezoianu: I recorded a few dreams, but that's about all
     
    Zen (zen.arado): I must be the little swot
    Zen (zen.arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: still, sounds encouraging
    Eliza Madrigal: swot?
    Agatha Macbeth: Swot team
    Zen (zen.arado): the little guy at school who works harder than everyone
    Tura Brezoianu: Is that not a word in American?
    Zen (zen.arado): which I never did
    Agatha Macbeth: Not the janitor...
    Eliza Madrigal: Not to me, interetsing
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I have not been sleeping well, and my dream recall is sketchy for now, but at least I am keeping up my journal
    Zen (zen.arado): is also a verb
    Agatha Macbeth: I can't spell that either
    Zen (zen.arado): means to study hard
    Eliza Madrigal: nice
    Eliza Madrigal files away fancy new word
    Zen (zen.arado): as in "I'll have to swot up on that"
     
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I think I did come close to having a WILD one night
    Eliza Madrigal: excellent
    Eliza Madrigal: my practice felt to deepen a little, and spill more into daily life
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Riddle :)
    Zen (zen.arado): Hi Riddle
    Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Rid
    Riddle Sideways: HI All, nice warm fire
    Eliza Madrigal: Want to give an overview of what has been happening for you, Zen?
    Zen (zen.arado): well I have had a bit of trouble sleeping
    Zen (zen.arado): because I got a new airflow Marquis
    Zen (zen.arado): mattress
    Agatha Macbeth: A what?
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh
    Zen (zen.arado): if anyone doesn't know it's a kind of air bed with rows of tubes that keep inflating and deflating
    Zen (zen.arado): it has a compressor
    Agatha Macbeth: Sorry, I thought of Marquis de Sade for some reason
    Eliza Madrigal: So you have to figure out the right settings for you
    Zen (zen.arado): the idea is to stop people getting pressure sores
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah
    Agatha Macbeth: Hm
    Zen (zen.arado): the compressor is quite noisy and the  bed is very soft and it's a weird feeling it wriggle underneath you
    Zen (zen.arado): but I'm getting used to it
    Zen (zen.arado): I can't turn over on my side either but that doesn't seem to have caused me as many problems as I thought
    Zen (zen.arado): I just lie on m
     
    Zen (zen.arado): I tried analysing one of my dreams using the technique that comes up in the next exercise
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Zen (zen.arado): perhaps we could hear Alma's dream first though
    Zen (zen.arado): ?
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): all right, if you want
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm fine either way.
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): just a moment...
    Zen (zen.arado): I  have to post some stuff before I do the exercise anyway
     
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): this happened at the end of a long series of dreams. I dreamed I was in a polling place, and then decided to leave before voting
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): then there was this:
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I leave this polling place and walk down the street to another polling place closer to home. I decide to go in there to vote. It is like an abandoned movie theater. As I go through the door, I am very close to waking up. The dream has faded and is more like a waking fantasy. I think to myself that, of course, I'm dreaming. Then it becomes more distinct. I can see my hands and my feet more clearly, as I am pushing the door open to enter. I wonder if I am on the verge of experiencing a WILD. I become excited about that, and wake up.
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): [end]
     
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Eliza Madrigal: theater of the mind :)
    Zen (zen.arado): you got too wild :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Agatha Macbeth: Where the wild things are
    Eliza Madrigal: What did you feel about it?
     
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I could definitely sense the dream starting to re-form after almost waking up.
    Eliza Madrigal: ooh
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I could see my hands becoming more clear and visible
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): and thought to myself, could this be a WILD starting to happen?
    Zen (zen.arado): that's good
     
    Eliza Madrigal: did it feel like the reel was contracting or being pulled back in, or opening?
    Eliza Madrigal: (not sure if the question makes sense, but wondering about the sensation)
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): reel?
    Eliza Madrigal: like, the story or setting re-engaging
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): yes, something like that
    Riddle Sideways: wow, so close
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): like becoming more immersed in the fantasy/dream, so that it was becoming more vivid
    Zen (zen.arado): was this last thing before waking in the morning?
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): yes, it was at the very end of my sleep cycle
    Eliza Madrigal: great, thank you
     
    Zen (zen.arado): That seems to be the only time when I can get back into dreams
    Zen (zen.arado): but it happens very rarely
    Eliza Madrigal nods, rare
    Zen (zen.arado): I wake in the middle of the night and can't get back to sleep for an hour or two usually
    Riddle Sideways: those end of night/start of day dreams seemed forced
    Riddle Sideways: and discounted
    Eliza Madrigal: over the break, Riddle?
    Zen (zen.arado): some of the authors seems to think they were the best dreams
    Zen (zen.arado): and that was the prime time for recording dreams
    Riddle Sideways: seems to be forced to go certain ways conscience wants
    Zen (zen.arado): it works better for me just because I wake up and remember the dreams then instead of going back to sleep and forgetting them
    Zen (zen.arado): I often find that early dreams are more likely to be daytime residue
    Eliza Madrigal: curious comment Riddle
    Zen (zen.arado): things I was thinking about before going to bed
    Riddle Sideways: hmmm, was thinking the opposite Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: all of us have very different ways of using energy during the day
    Zen (zen.arado): well we are all different
    Riddle Sideways: good thing
    Zen (zen.arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: probably the consolidation process happens in different periods
     
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I sometimes have dreams very early in the night that are very emotional, almost but not quite nightmares
    Riddle Sideways: but, but, but some books say the dreams are a certain way
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): but usually I don't remember anything from early in the night
    Riddle Sideways: recorder has helped
    Zen (zen.arado): I would remember them better if I wasn't so lazy and recorded them
    Riddle Sideways: ummm, if remembered :(
    Eliza Madrigal: that's good, yes that is the same for me... lots of dreaming but sometimes I'm so confident that I'll remember that I don't record
    Zen (zen.arado): yes that's a problem Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: I do have a sense of trust that the ones I really need to remember, will come back up, though
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes that happens during the waking day
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I always record if I can, because I know I will forget otherwise
    Zen (zen.arado): the confident trickster
     
    Eliza Madrigal: I woke in a dreamy state on new years day, with a 'voice' on the boundary of wake/sleep
    Zen (zen.arado): I find I am remembering dreams better and can transcribe them without having to consult my recorder
    Zen (zen.arado): oh ?
    Riddle Sideways listens
    Eliza Madrigal: it felt sort of Christmas Carol
    Eliza Madrigal: "Don't run out the clock on the rest of your life"
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): was it past, present, or future?
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): oh
    Zen (zen.arado): Dickens has a lot to answer for :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe due to new years countdowns, and mixtures of goals outlooks for the year to come
    Eliza Madrigal: however, it led to a rich sort of unpacking process
    Eliza Madrigal: as I looked up 'running out the clock' and what that means in sports terms etc
    Eliza Madrigal: it is sort of, protecting what you have, rather than venturing
    Zen (zen.arado): like a soccer team who are ahead and try to slow the game down
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Eliza Madrigal: I credit this kind of clear 'guidance' to dream practice
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): using up the time without really doing anything
    Zen (zen.arado): how would you do that in life ?
    Eliza Madrigal: almost being out of the game entirely
    Zen (zen.arado): Being afraid to try new things?
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm always doing that, but I didn't see it...
    Zen (zen.arado): Getting into a rut
    Eliza Madrigal: sort of
     
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): in sports it is sometimes the best strategy, but maybe not so much in life
    Eliza Madrigal: different seasons require different ways
    Zen (zen.arado): life usually digs us back out again
    Tura Brezoianu: sticking where you are with "enough" and never going further?
    Eliza Madrigal: basically, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: or being hesitant to push others out of comfort zones
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): there is also the expression, "killing time"
    Eliza Madrigal: right!
    Zen (zen.arado): comfort zones
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Eliza Madrigal: And, I learned there is the expression 'eating clock'
    Eliza Madrigal: weird, right?
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): never heard that one!
    Riddle Sideways: yes, like seasons. the rain here is just so nice to stop and watch it
    Zen (zen.arado): me neither
    Riddle Sideways: is Am. football term
    Riddle Sideways: and some basketball
     
    Zen (zen.arado): there is an opposite
    Zen (zen.arado): running around always looking for novelties and distractions
    Zen (zen.arado): more like me
    Agatha Macbeth: Pleasures and wayward distractions
    Riddle Sideways: looking to yer phone for new distractions?
    Eliza Madrigal: that's why we need personal insights... it is too easy to look at general tendencies and try to provide for every one
    Eliza Madrigal: Ready to share your dream Zen?
     
    Zen (zen.arado): and who knows the right balance
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Zen (zen.arado): ok
    Eliza Madrigal: we do, somewhere in there :))
     
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe I better post the exercise first
    Eliza Madrigal: ok
     
    Zen (zen.arado): EXCERCISE: Entering the Realm of the Living Dream 
     
    Select a vivid dream to work with. Sometimes this is an obvious choice; perhaps the dream you had last night was so compelling that it hasn’t let go of you all day. Or maybe there is a dream from the past that has continued to come into your thoughts again and again. Whatever dream you choose, or whichever dream chooses you, write or draw it in detail before going further. When you are ready, find a quiet place and get settled.
     
    Zen (zen.arado): Reconnect with your body in whatever way you know. You may want to pay attention to your breathing. Notice how you begin to relax and deepen into your body sensations. Allow any thoughts that arise to gently pass through your mind, like clouds floating easily through the sky. Return to your breath. Allow your mind to clear and let go of any interpretations of the dream that you might be considering. Relax in your chair or couch. Take a few moments to feel your presence in the room.
     
    Zen (zen.arado): Next read the text of the dream aloud to yourself or take a few moments to really witness the sketch that you have drawn. See the entire dream in your mind’s eye, just as you saw it the first time you dreamt it. Imagine that you are in the theater of dream, participating in a live performance. Notice carefully how entering this dream theater makes you feel. What emotions come up? What physical sensations arise in your body? Write down your observations in your journal.
     
    Eliza Madrigal: "in the theater of the dream" !
     
    Zen (zen.arado): By bringing yourself into the dream in an active and responsive way, in present time, you begin to open to the consciousness of the dream. You leave your daytime world ever so slightly behind, and begin to walk into the dream world. You are meeting the dream in the way of the dream.
     
    Agatha Macbeth: !
     
    Zen (zen.arado): Begin to move forward, further and further into the dream. It is no longer an inanimate object that you are going to pick apart. You begin to see it as it really is—a living reality that is here and now. Now close your eyes and notice your breathing. As you bring your focus to your body, observe where you are feeling tight. Allow your inhaling to naturally deepen, then bring your awareness back to the dream. Notice what you observe and write it down.
     
    Aizenstat, Stephen. Dream Tending: Awakening to the Healing Power of Dreams (p. 29). Spring Journal, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
    Zen (zen.arado): Done
     
    Eliza Madrigal: that's beautifully written
    Zen (zen.arado): para before last is most important I think
    Zen (zen.arado): now my dream
     
    Zen (zen.arado): I had found a new job. The man who hired me told me I would get £11,500 per year – not very much I thought, as he drove off in his car. I was in a big room with a bunch of men and women and all we did all day was write messages on irregularly shaped pieces of paper and stick them on a board. I read some of the messages but they were pretty meaningless. One of them was insulting me. I knew who had written it and looked at her, but she just smiled. At the end of the day we took all the messages off, starting again the next morning.
    Zen (zen.arado): now what O got from it:
    Agatha Macbeth: O?
    Zen (zen.arado): I felt: disappointment and then anger at the man as he drove away in his car – anger that he could get away with paying me and others so little. I also felt a little anger at the woman who had put a main comment about me on the board. But the overall emotion was of frustration at the meaninglessness of it all. I didn't feel I was achieving anything and it was all a waste of time.
    Zen (zen.arado): I :)
    Zen (zen.arado): Done
     
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah
    Eliza Madrigal: aw, not a very uplifting feeling
    Agatha Macbeth: Had me wondering
    Zen (zen.arado): I'm sure you could all do this better than me
    Zen (zen.arado): mean comment it should be
    Zen (zen.arado): I was trying to feel the emotions
    Eliza Madrigal: hoping you'll say more. Any connections?
    Riddle Sideways: you expressed the emotions in the writing
    Zen (zen.arado): well the meaningless messages will be Facebook or something
    Eliza Madrigal understands that
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): is there anything in your waking life that has a similar kind of feeling?
    Zen (zen.arado): general life online
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, that makes a lot of sense
    Zen (zen.arado): actually I had that dream on December 31
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): interesting
    Riddle Sideways: new years eve
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Eliza Madrigal: FB is sort of a timewaster now... so few people use it for substantive discourse
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe there's something about the meaningless of many jobs
    Agatha Macbeth: True
    Zen (zen.arado): I have spiritual discussions with a woman
    Eliza Madrigal: that was part of the feeling that led to my insight too.. or whatever one wants to call it... where is time wasted? Your time wasn't valued in the dream.
     
    Zen (zen.arado): I sometimes wonder if there is any point
    Zen (zen.arado): I generally feel a bit depressed over Christmas and New Year and then pick up in the New Year again
    Zen (zen.arado): I have never found a solution for that
    Eliza Madrigal: what do you hate about Christmas? feels meaningless?
    Zen (zen.arado): something about the whole forcedness
    Zen (zen.arado): you have to do this you have to do that even though a lot of the things are silly and pointless
    Zen (zen.arado): but that's just me
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't think so.... think a lot of people feel that way
    Zen (zen.arado): when I was working I enjoyed having a week off and a good rest
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I don't exchange Christmas cards or presents with anyone any more, and I don't miss it at all
    Riddle Sideways: point/pointless.   Fav movie "The Point"
    Zen (zen.arado): when most people don't agree with me and they try to chivy me
    Zen (zen.arado): tells me I shouldn't be on my own at Christmas even though I spend every day on my own rest of the year :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: HA 
    Zen (zen.arado): I'm not a Christian either so why should I celebrate a Christian feast
    Agatha Macbeth: Is it?
    Zen (zen.arado): well supposed to be?
    Agatha Macbeth: Exactly
     
    Tura Brezoianu: It's got broader and broader.
    Zen (zen.arado): It's more  a retail feast I think
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): you can also treat it as a solstice celebration
    Eliza Madrigal: I rebel consciously, but still try to do the basics
    Tura Brezoianu: Hanukwanzaadiwalisolsticemas :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Bless you
    Zen (zen.arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: feats of strength and airing of grievances
    Riddle Sideways: exactly, Tura
    Agatha Macbeth: Geschwindischkeitsbeschräankung
    Zen (zen.arado): dream wasn't unhappy though
    Tura Brezoianu: Gesundheit :)
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): the church near my house always puts out a sign, "Keep Christ in Christmas". whenever I drive past, I think, If that works for you then fine, but don't tell me how to celebrate my holiday.
    Zen (zen.arado): it was more wondering what it was all about
    Eliza Madrigal: Christ must live in the mall
    Eliza Madrigal: I think the holidays can accentuate areas we feel generally
    Zen (zen.arado): yes
    Tura Brezoianu: "Et in arcade ego"
    Agatha Macbeth: He probably gets plagued by mormons
    Zen (zen.arado): :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Carpe diem
     
    Zen (zen.arado): one thing I'm resolving to do this year is to look for more detail in my dreams
    Zen (zen.arado): I should notice the clothes people are wearing
    Agatha Macbeth: (If any)
    Riddle Sideways: please, stick to that one, zen
    Eliza Madrigal: the technique you shared may help... drawing or writing, getting used to thinking about those things and asking those questions
    Zen (zen.arado): remember Gaya and the amount of detail in her dreams?
    Eliza Madrigal: In Luci's group, they pay attention to directions, and before I heard about that, I never thought to look
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh yes
    Agatha Macbeth: Yay Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: Wol too, but I'm sure being an architect helps
    Zen (zen.arado): I'm more of an Impressionist dreamer
    Agatha Macbeth: Wol and her railway stations
    Zen (zen.arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Riddle Sideways: have started noticing more and more, thanks to y'all
    Agatha Macbeth: You'd think airports would be more likely
     
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes general things can be very powerful though... just the sensibilities coming through
    Eliza Madrigal: that's nice to hear, Riddle
    Agatha Macbeth: I'm not sensiblr, so don't qualify
    Zen (zen.arado): yes Riddle
    Eliza Madrigal: :P Agatha
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm always interested in presence
    Eliza Madrigal: and in carrying that into the rest of life
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe it is how I feel connected, find meaning
     
    Zen (zen.arado): I just thought – does anyone know the Chinese room thought experiment?
    Zen (zen.arado): I wonder if that has anything to do with the dream
    Agatha Macbeth: Nope
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I've heard of it, but can't remember the details just now
    Tura Brezoianu: yes, and I see how the dream suggests it
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Riddle Sideways: listens
    Zen (zen.arado): I can't remember all the details of it
    Zen (zen.arado): but it's something about trying to determine if computers actually think
    Zen (zen.arado): and people past bits of paper into a room but the person in the room only has a dictionary so he looks up the word and then passes the translation out again
    Zen (zen.arado): and you could say that that's all computers do
    Zen (zen.arado): something like that
    Zen (zen.arado): maybe you could improve on that Tura?
    Agatha Macbeth: Computers only do what they're told
    Zen (zen.arado): of course all that is changing with AI
     
    Tura Brezoianu: The Chinese Room:
    Tura Brezoianu: Someone sits in a room. room time to time strange symbols are shown to them. They have a giant book that tells them what symbols to make in response, so they do.
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): being able to apply a rule, even a very complex one, does not necessarily imply understanding?
    Tura Brezoianu: The symbols in fact are Chinese text, and the book tells them how to respond to any utterance.
    Tura Brezoianu: But the person in the room knows nothing of this and does not know Chinese.
    Zen (zen.arado): yes that's great Tura
    Tura Brezoianu: And some sort of philosophical consequence is drawn from this.
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): reminds me of some college classes I took
    Eliza Madrigal: sounds like 'normal' dream interpretation
    Tura Brezoianu: I think it's supposed to show that computers can't understand anything, they just follow rules
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh right I've heard of that
    Eliza Madrigal: symbol = such n such
    Agatha Macbeth: Isn't it some kind of analog thing?
     
    Zen (zen.arado): isn't it just that computers can only do what they're programmed to do and will never be able to think for themselves?
    Eliza Madrigal: there is a neat question about paperclips, along those lines  [see below]
    Eliza Madrigal: also, yes, AI ... experiment designed prior to alpha Go :)
    Riddle Sideways listens about paperclips
    Tura Brezoianu: Listens for paperclips
    Agatha Macbeth: Project paperclip?
    Zen (zen.arado): :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I can't... but I will attach a link or explanation to the log. It is about, a computer programmed to optimise everything to make paperclips
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh
    Agatha Macbeth: Wow
    Zen (zen.arado): And the world becomes a paperclip?
    Agatha Macbeth: Now there's something I haven't used for years
    Agatha Macbeth: WB Rid
    Eliza Madrigal: it could... one of the central questions or scenarios they describe
    Tura Brezoianu: The idea that a superintelligent AI let loose on the world is likely to just try to turn everything into paperclips, or something equally disastrous?
    Zen (zen.arado): ah
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: people do this too, but we check each other maybe :)))
     
    Zen (zen.arado): Machines programming themselves and improving each time
    Zen (zen.arado): I think they did that with the go game
    Eliza Madrigal: The alpha go situation is so interseting
    Eliza Madrigal: ack
    Eliza Madrigal: INTERESTING
    Zen (zen.arado): machine just played itself over and over again
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe I need to get rid of that word :)
    Zen (zen.arado): they say it only took about four hours
    Eliza Madrigal: the thing is, it eventually made a 'creative' move
    Agatha Macbeth: Funny how I can't spell it either
    Zen (zen.arado): whereas the deep blue program that beat Kasparov took years
    Eliza Madrigal: or a seemingly creative move
    Tura Brezoianu: We know now what androids dream of: dogs everywhere, with too many eyes.
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Agatha Macbeth: Not electric sheep then
    Eliza Madrigal: there is a good doc about alpha go... I think still on netflix
    Zen (zen.arado): they say that's how they know someone is using a computer in chess tournaments – computer moves are too creative
    Zen (zen.arado): isn't that paradoxical
    Eliza Madrigal: and another about the game itself, called The Surrounding Game, but that was made just before alphago
    Agatha Macbeth: Hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: wow, I've never heard that Zen
    Agatha Macbeth: One guy hid a phone in the toilet
     
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay... have stayed too long :) have to run before the bank closes today
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Agatha Macbeth: Got the log
    Zen (zen.arado): ok thanks for coming everyone
    Agatha Macbeth: ?
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I need to run too
    Zen (zen.arado): hope someone tries exercise
    Eliza Madrigal: I'll grab it before hitting close
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): good to see you all again
    Eliza Madrigal: I intend to Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: lovely to see you Alma
    Eliza Madrigal: and everyone :) Sorry about missing last week
    Riddle Sideways: thanks All
    Agatha Macbeth: Again
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): I forgot all about last week too
    Tura Brezoianu: thanks all, good evening
    Riddle Sideways: missed it too
    Eliza Madrigal: >whew<
    Agatha Macbeth: Bysie bye
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Tura :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye :)
    Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): bye for now, have a good week
    Agatha Macbeth: Skaters of the world unite
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
     
    Agatha Macbeth: What big eyes you have grandma
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Do I
    Agatha Macbeth: Mhm
    Eliza Madrigal: Better to see what I want to see and disregard the rest
    Eliza Madrigal: >hums<
    Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Okay... got the log and am on my way now
    Eliza Madrigal: hugs <3
    Agatha Macbeth: See you Thu
    Agatha Macbeth: ♥
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, see you then!

     

     

    Paperclip maximizer
    via Wikipedia under “Instrumental Convergence”

    The paperclip maximizer is a thought experiment described by Swedish philosopher Nick Bostrom in 2003. It illustrates the existential risk that an artificial general intelligence may pose to human beings when programmed to pursue even seemingly-harmless goals, and the necessity of incorporating machine ethics into artificial intelligence design. The scenario describes an advanced artificial intelligence tasked with manufacturing paperclips. If such a machine were not programmed to value human life, then given enough power its optimized goal would be to turn all matter in the universe, including human beings, into either paperclips or machines which manufacture paperclips.[4]

    Suppose we have an AI whose only goal is to make as many paper clips as possible. The AI will realize quickly that it would be much better if there were no humans because humans might decide to switch it off. Because if humans do so, there would be fewer paper clips. Also, human bodies contain a lot of atoms that could be made into paper clips. The future that the AI would be trying to gear towards would be one in which there were a lot of paper clips but no humans.
    — Nick Bostrom, as quoted in "Artificial Intelligence May Doom The Human Race Within A Century, Oxford Professor Says".[5]

    Bostrom has emphasised that he does not believe the paperclip maximiser scenario per se will actually occur; rather, his intention is to illustrate the dangers of creating superintelligentmachines without knowing how to safely program them to eliminate existential risk to human beings.[6] The paperclip maximizer example illustrates the broad problem of managing powerful systems that lack human values.[7]

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