2019.02.07 13:00 - Harari VI - Liberty

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    Comparing version 22:33, 7 Feb 2019 by Agatha MacBeth? with version 22:35, 7 Feb 2019 by Agatha MacBeth?.

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    This revision modified by Agatha MacBeth? (Ban)

     

    The Guardian for this meeting were Aph and Bruce. The comments are by Agatha.

     

    Aphrodite Macbain's current display-name is "Aph".
    Riddle Sideways: oooooo
    Riddle Sideways: bad
    Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
    Aphrodite Macbain: put-rid
    Agatha Macbeth: He was
    Agatha Macbeth: Not in real life mind you
    Riddle Sideways: have been listening for 3+ hours to pink floyd
    Agatha Macbeth: Woot
    Aphrodite Macbain: way cool
    Riddle Sideways: blaming Adams, started it
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Agatha Macbeth: What's she done now?
    Riddle Sideways: Animals
    Aphrodite Macbain: listened to Pink Floyd?
    Riddle Sideways: Animals in songs
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Riddle Sideways: so had to play the album
    Agatha Macbeth: Les animeaux
    Agatha Macbeth: (sp?)
    Aphrodite Macbain: looks good
    Aphrodite Macbain: bon
    Agatha Macbeth: Couldn't remember if there was an e in it
    Aphrodite Macbain: animaux
    Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
    Aphrodite Macbain: looks wrong
    Riddle Sideways: anime has an e
    Agatha Macbeth: That's what I was thinking
    Agatha Macbeth: What long legs you have Liz
    Aphrodite Macbain: All the better to skip with
    Agatha Macbeth: Or skate
    Aphrodite Macbain: or leap over buildings
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hope Bruce can make it today
    Agatha Macbeth: Some leap
    Eliza Madrigal: oh, sorry... was adjusting hover height
    Agatha Macbeth: Never a bad move
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wish I could do that in RL
    Aphrodite Macbain: RL
    Aphrodite Macbain: It would mae sitting in lectures mre comfortabe
    Eliza Madrigal: oh, me too... gain a few lbs, no problem, just stretch a bit
    Aphrodite Macbain: *make $more
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, hovering in events would indeed be nice too, or in plane seats
    Aphrodite Macbain: Has everyone read or listened to chapter 3?
    Agatha Macbeth: Is your cat on the keyboard?
    Aphrodite Macbain: no just my sloppy hands
    Agatha Macbeth: Here comes Brucie
    Aphrodite Macbain: yayy
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, have listened a few times, since each time I listen I go farther then go back before session, then go farther again
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    --BELL--1.00
    Eliza Madrigal: Harari Dance
    Agatha Macbeth: So you start before you began?
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, I can't tell anymore
    Bruce Mowbray's current display-name is "Bruce".
    Riddle Sideways: thatz a way to go
    Agatha Macbeth: Brucie :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :) Hi Bruce :)
    Riddle Sideways: Tura
    Agatha Macbeth: And Tura :)
    Tura Brezoianu: hi all
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce and Tura
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, everyone.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bruce with bit of a Mr. Rogers vibe today :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes!
    Aphrodite Macbain: nice tie
    Bruce Mowbray: Won't you be my neighbor?
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Riddle Sideways: needs to put on slippers
    Aphrodite Macbain: looks for Jerome
    Agatha Macbeth: I remember Roy Rogers
    Bruce Mowbray looks for slippers.
    Aphrodite Macbain: me too
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth
    Aphrodite Macbain: and hopalong cassidy
    Riddle Sideways: hey dRuth
    Agatha Macbeth: And his horse
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, druth.
    druth Vlodovic: hey guys
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi druthie
    Riddle Sideways: trigger
    Aphrodite Macbain: and his wife, dale evans
    Agatha Macbeth: Right
    Tura Brezoianu: hi druth
    Bruce Mowbray: I saw Roy Dale and Trigger in person when I was about 8 years old.
    Aphrodite Macbain: wow- I cant believe I remembered that
    Agatha Macbeth: They were on the Muppets once
    Agatha Macbeth: He must have been about 80
    Riddle Sideways: Roy had Trigger stuffed and put on display

    Anyway, down to it

    Aphrodite Macbain: So --- has everyone read chapter 3?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yep, that's right.
    Riddle Sideways: Dale got buried
    Agatha Macbeth: Not so expensive to feed
    Bruce Mowbray: also, Roy was from Portsmouth, Ohio.
    Riddle Sideways: and almost reread too
    Riddle Sideways: thank you Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: good for you. I find I forget so much of what he writes since he talks about so much
    Eliza Madrigal: and it is all related
    Aphrodite Macbain: hard to pull out particulars
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Riddle Sideways: now am scared to get into driverless car
    Agatha Macbeth: Need to watch those particulars
    Aphrodite Macbain: do you all feel you are now run by algorithms?
    Aphrodite Macbain: and have no will of your own?
    Riddle Sideways: Google Maps vs the Prius' NAv

    Old friend returns

    Catrinamonblue Resident's current display-name is "Catrinamonblue".
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Cat :)
    Riddle Sideways: they fight
    Agatha Macbeth: LTNS
    Riddle Sideways: hey Cat
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cat!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Cat! LOng time no see.
    Agatha Macbeth: Snap
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I know it's been a long while.
    Bruce Mowbray: WB, Cat.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I have not read the book but had a bit of time and just wanted to drop in and listen to you all :)
    Agatha Macbeth: And we're still here
    Riddle Sideways: great
    Aphrodite Macbain: We are discussing Uval Harrari's book 21 sessions for the 21st century
    Eliza Madrigal: :) feel free to jump in after you drop, the topics are easy to muse with, read or not
    Bruce Mowbray: We're talking about "Liberty" today, Cat.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: ok :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Just don't mention walls...
    Aphrodite Macbain: Something we assume is a basic right
    Riddle Sideways: or the lack of Liberty
    Aphrodite Macbain: but how free are we really?
    Riddle Sideways: author dealt hard blow at Free Will
    Riddle Sideways: kilt it
    Aphrodite Macbain: despite the lack of visible walls
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    druth Vlodovic: In the movie ladyhawke one character is talking to God and says "I know you wouldn't judge me for acting according to my nature."
    Eliza Madrigal: "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."
    Aphrodite Macbain: maybe god wont but society might
    Agatha Macbeth: Badly drawn boy
    Eliza Madrigal: (Jessica Rabbit) :P
    Tura Brezoianu: "Ok, I'm a serial killer, but underneath, fundamentally, I'm really a nice guy."
    druth Vlodovic: I read it in her voice lol
    Agatha Macbeth: Any relation to Peter?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I often wonder whether my decisions are frequently made as a result of really good marketing
    Bruce Mowbray: Harari says that “liberty” means each and every person has a voice – “What do you FEEL about this?”
    Eliza Madrigal: that's a good thing, Aph, or at least that seems to be his message over all?
    Riddle Sideways: and goes on a long time on the Bexit voters
    Agatha Macbeth: Everybody has a vote but that's not quite the same
    druth Vlodovic: "Give me a boy until his 6th birthday and I'll give you the man"
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- it seems decisions are made by "feelig" rather than by rational thinking
    Riddle Sideways: oh dear
    Agatha Macbeth: That's me
    Aphrodite Macbain: and feeling is shaped by society
    Eliza Madrigal: generalized impressions
    Bruce Mowbray: Can I decide what is best for me?
    druth Vlodovic: we can reprogram our feelings but even the decision to do so is suspect
    Riddle Sideways: since you don't really know you very well
    Agatha Macbeth: Better than anyone else can
    Bruce Mowbray: Can I trust my own experiences and judgment?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Good question Bruce. I dont think I can.
    Eliza Madrigal: there are many feeling threats that, if they look at the numbers, aren't accurate... they are misdirected by the marketing machinery
    Riddle Sideways: Big Data has stored every one of your decisions and knows which is better
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :-D
    Agatha Macbeth: 'Please accept cookies'
    Eliza Madrigal: sounds so friendly!
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder how I coud make a decision without referring to what I have leard and learned.
    Tura Brezoianu: "Never take cookies from strangers."
    Aphrodite Macbain: heard
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Agatha Macbeth: Right
    Riddle Sideways: knows if you been good or bad, so you better be good for goodness sake
    Aphrodite Macbain: JUst chocolate bars
    druth Vlodovic: instead of forcing us to leave our TVs on so they can watch us they make it so we don't want to turn them off and offer up our data
    Riddle Sideways: 1984
    Agatha Macbeth: Long time ago
    Riddle Sideways: does that maths 2019-1984
    Eliza Madrigal: and even if one stops the leak in one part of the boat, they discover another... really does seem too far to undo, so we have to move forward and try to regulate more?
    --BELL--1.15
    Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose one would have to barricade oneself from the world in order to not be influenced by others
    Aphrodite Macbain: Trouble is- who does the regulating?
    Eliza Madrigal: Germany just put limits on FB
    Riddle Sideways: or always use a VPN
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I have often wondered if it really is such a bad thing that they collect data on us? If we are aware and make our choices being aware of their interference does it matter that all the adds on my facebook are about a dress I looked at?
    druth Vlodovic: is it bad to be influenced by others?
    Aphrodite Macbain: It feels too much like big brother
    Bruce Mowbray: The “smart” TV watches us while we're watching it - as does the smart phone, smart Netflix, smart Amazon, etc etc.
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's smarter than us?
    Riddle Sideways: and puts up adverts for a better refrig than the one bought
    druth Vlodovic: something I noticed with youtube is that once it thinks it knows what you want to watch, it is hard to get other sorts of videos
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Bruce Mowbray: Iss Google smarter than I am? -- It's better at retrieving data, for sure.
    Tura Brezoianu: People are always influenced by other people. That's what society is, right back to prehistoric times. Well, right back to ape times.
    Aphrodite Macbain: It learns quickly
    Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes I've felt like that, Cat, (more openness the better) but even when you give a lot, they take more.... like FB using private messages, which are... labeled...private
    Tura Brezoianu: Youtube unlearns too slowly.
    Riddle Sideways: yep Tura
    druth Vlodovic: we don't have the big splash to warn us off talking
    Aphrodite Macbain: big spash?
    Riddle Sideways: the bad choice prehistoric died. their genes did not continue
    druth Vlodovic: a problem is the enforced echo chamber
    Eliza Madrigal: definitely, what happened with the kids channels on youtube was awful/scary
    Bruce Mowbray: It sort of scares me that after I buy something online, for weeks afterward I get adverts for that thing whenever I open my browser.
    Aphrodite Macbain: what happened Eliza?
    druth Vlodovic: I didn't hear about that
    Eliza Madrigal: the algorithms took kids from one video to another...
    Eliza Madrigal: and then people started making videos, or rather having algorithms make videos...
    Aphrodite Macbain: like wtching a serial program on Netflix
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I know Bruce, I just ignore them mostly.
    Eliza Madrigal: and they ended up being these horrible things. I'll find the article
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure, parents shouldn't just hand a kid an ipad, but the society is all of our issue
    druth Vlodovic: ah, the probhlem with AI is that it wasn't raised in society so it doesn't know what we think is right or wrong
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Riddle Sideways: Ethics????
    Aphrodite Macbain: but it learns about society very quickly druth
    druth Vlodovic: I mean kids like gross and ugly because it's funny
    Riddle Sideways: oh and WHOSE ethics will we be forced to follow
    Aphrodite Macbain: because it breaks rules?
    druth Vlodovic: so something monitoring them will choose to show them what they like, not what we want them to like
    Aphrodite Macbain: There may be a day when the parents can manipulate the material to fit within their morals
    druth Vlodovic: "Perental controls" doesn't work as well as you'd like
    Aphrodite Macbain: or get them to tune to the "moral channel"
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    druth Vlodovic: heck, slap xtian values on a monitoring program and the bible certainly won't be accessible
    Riddle Sideways: and the Morals Channel is brought to you by mini Frosted Wheats
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol Rid
    Eliza Madrigal: the only moral choice
    Bruce Mowbray: Good point, druth.
    Tura Brezoianu: Harari talks about the algorithms of Facebook and the like knowing more about us than we do, but I think that misses the mark. The algorithms' only purpose is getting clicks and sales. They are optimised hard for that, and whatever you optimise for, everything else gets thrown overboard.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: so are we actually losing our liberty? with big brother watching?
    Bruce Mowbray: I agree with you Tura.
    Aphrodite Macbain: That's what Harari suggests Cat
    Aphrodite Macbain: but we are unaware of being manipulated
    druth Vlodovic: obesity is sometimes blamed for "high value" food containing lots of fat and sugar, we were programmed to seek this out back when it wasn't prevalent
    Bruce Mowbray: Our concept of “liberal democracy” will change – when algorithms make decisions for us
    Riddle Sideways: and states we are losing our decision powers/ability
    druth Vlodovic: so what we want isn't always what we need
    Bruce Mowbray: well, our genes are also "programmed" -- in a way.
    Eliza Madrigal: combined with income equality is probably the worrisome part
    Aphrodite Macbain: you cant always get what you want
    Tura Brezoianu: I think China's social credit system is a far bigger threat than Facebook, but hardly anything gets said about it in the West. I think some liberal types think it would be a good thing, if only they are in charge of it.
    Aphrodite Macbain: How does it work Tura?
    Eliza Madrigal: it is weird we're not talking about it more
    druth Vlodovic: I'm sure the social credit program is just a logical extension
    druth Vlodovic: they even have a thing that sends an alert that you are standing near somebody in debt
    Tura Brezoianu: Everyone gets rated for prosocial or antisocial activities online. As defined by the Chinese government. Too low a score and e.g. you can't get a ticket for a long-distance train.
    Tura Brezoianu: The top rank of scores are only attainable by members of the Communist Party.
    Eliza Madrigal: and it filters your friends... too dangerous to one's own reputation to hang out with mediocre credit people
    druth Vlodovic: I read a story once about a place where people had gold stars and red dots stuck to them, and anyone could put a gold star or red dot on you
    Aphrodite Macbain: wow. sounds like a lot of bureaucratization work
    Agatha Macbeth: Hope they made good use of them
    druth Vlodovic: so those with lots of gold starts got more because they had gold stars already
    Eliza Madrigal thinks of sneetches
    Bruce Mowbray: Do we have models for lives lived according to algorithms – rather than “free will”?
    Tura Brezoianu: All done automatically by silicon.
    Aphrodite Macbain: sneetches?
    Agatha Macbeth: (sneetches?)
    Agatha Macbeth: Snap
    Eliza Madrigal: Dr. Seuss, definitely worth looking up
    druth Vlodovic: the ultimate skills will be making friends, hiding skeletons and sucking up
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    Riddle Sideways: long ago, there was a Great Father Sarducci sketch on a good/bad credit system
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think anyone working in the food, hotel or fashion insustries would be run by algorithms
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol druth
    Bruce Mowbray: I found it hard to believe that if Harari had utilized algorithms (bioletric devices) that could have informed him of his sexual orientation - that he would actually have accepted it right off the bat.
    Tura Brezoianu: Someone did an experiment of "liking" everything that Facebook showed him. I forget the details, but the outcome was that his Facebook feed turned into trash.
    Aphrodite Macbain: long ago ... what happend to it?
    Eliza Madrigal: agree Bruce, my eyebrows raised at that
    Bruce Mowbray: Yep.
    Bruce Mowbray: Too many social pressure....
    Bruce Mowbray: s
    Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Bruce- emotions get in the way
    Bruce Mowbray: a LOT of things get in the way.
    Eliza Madrigal: [no good moment to add this] Here is the article about youtube, a bit long but worth reading: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/07/what-youtube-reveals-about-the-toddler-mind/534765/ , and here is another: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/11/raised-by-youtube/570838/
    Aphrodite Macbain: we have biases
    Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Eliza
    Tura Brezoianu: Algorithms have a certain self-defeating property: if you make the decisions suggested by the algorithm, it stops getting any more information about you.
    --BELL--1.30
    Bruce Mowbray: Are my sub-conscious biases necessarily inferior to algorithms?
    Riddle Sideways: thanks Eliza, more tabs
    Aphrodite Macbain: not necessarily - and t depends what you mean by inferior
    Bruce Mowbray nods, good point, Aph.
    druth Vlodovic: My son told me that he deletes everything off of his feed from time to time
    druth Vlodovic: well, by then they know everything that there is ever going to be to know about you
    Aphrodite Macbain: I delete stuff immediately
    Riddle Sideways: oh, found that the youTube page has a 'history' button and you can look at what you watched (and it recorded you watching)
    Aphrodite Macbain: so does Second Life
    Aphrodite Macbain: "Teleport History)
    druth Vlodovic: I remmeber looking at a tracker blocking program that said it would "tell the websites not to track you"
    druth Vlodovic: lol
    Riddle Sideways: found that a tab never looked at is getting opened and recorded every start of browser
    druth Vlodovic: "Pay no attention to the man sneaking past the door!"
    Aphrodite Macbain: who bothers to read all these results?
    Aphrodite Macbain: AI I suppose
    Bruce Mowbray: Databanks.
    druth Vlodovic: the logarithms
    Riddle Sideways: youtube does, just before putting up what you should watch next
    druth Vlodovic: not people certainly
    druth Vlodovic: if you get demonetized by youtube you need a tghousand views before a human is even asked to look at why
    Aphrodite Macbain: Isnt it odd that we are being only read by machines?
    Bruce Mowbray: So, our children's notions of liberal democracy will be different from our own -- perhaps they will take the databanks in stride.
    druth Vlodovic: or rather to look at the video, I don't think they ever find out why
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think you're right. Will the millennials make it better or worse?
    druth Vlodovic: instead of breaking the rules to be a rebel they will need to create order to rebel against the random nature of society
    Aphrodite Macbain: Each society in the world will be run by different algorithms
    Bruce Mowbray: So, the pre-millennials were "raise" by TV, and the millennials were raised by iPads?
    Bruce Mowbray: raised*
    Aphrodite Macbain: Which is worse?
    Riddle Sideways: (until this year) most don't think about the Censes (sp?) the way the Grandparents did
    druth Vlodovic: before that kids raised each other
    Aphrodite Macbain: Census?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. Well, there is the illusion of "free will" in both, I suppose.
    Riddle Sideways: ty
    Eliza Madrigal: I like the question of whether we're already being run by invisible algorithms in our genetics/simulation universe... and our tampering is messy imitation
    Catrinamonblue Resident: is it worse? worse than the past?
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I don't think so myself :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: hmm
    Bruce Mowbray: Are you implying a matrix situation, Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: the question goes too far, but it is a fun line of thinking
    Riddle Sideways: yep, the Matrix
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    Riddle Sideways: listen to deja vu
    Eliza Madrigal: which might make us feel a little more secure... that it is not really altogether new territory
    Aphrodite Macbain: what does deja vue sound like?
    Eliza Madrigal likes Cat's optimism
    Bruce Mowbray: Actually, that notion is VERY old... as with Leibnetz'a notion that God is thinking the universe frame by frame.
    Bruce Mowbray: Leibnitz? spelling, sry.
    Aphrodite Macbain: so we have no control Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: That would be the case, yes.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :) I am optimistic, we as a people have survived and thrived, this is just another iteration of who we are :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I just don't think we're learning fast enough... growing our hearts fast enough maybe
    Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- it's hard to keep up
    Bruce Mowbray: Of course, if one follows pure empiricism/logic, everything is the determined result of things that preceded it. . . so everything is determined, anyway.
    Agatha Macbeth: Allegedly
    Bruce Mowbray: i.e., no free will.
    Riddle Sideways: religions like that
    Bruce Mowbray: But let's don;t go there.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I always like to feel I have SOME say in my decision-making process
    Eliza Madrigal: how can we have free will if everyone has it?
    Bruce Mowbray: I agree with you, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: but I am aware my parametres are narrow
    Bruce Mowbray: Can I change my mind?
    Riddle Sideways: no
    Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm.
    Eliza Madrigal: about? lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- but within a restricted rage of decisions
    Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm, again.
    Eliza Madrigal: so a little free will? :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: good answer
    druth Vlodovic: "Restricted rage of decisions" sounds like an experimental punk band
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Tura Brezoianu: We make decisions, and act on them. That's free will enough for me. People have no difficulty talking about computers making decisions, I don't see why there should be any difficulty when it comes to people.
    Riddle Sideways: a little bit of free will makes the medicine go down, meds go down
    Bruce Mowbray: Decisions like what to study, whom to marry, etc. could be made by bio-metrics. could make better decisions than we could about our own lives.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think we can decide what colour socks we put on this morning but I'm not sure whether planning my next move is going t be decided upon just by myaself
    Catrinamonblue Resident: agree Tura :)
    Eliza Madrigal: but Harari says we choose within a range of socks we're given
    druth Vlodovic: raising kids it is best to let them make as many of their own decisions as possible, even obviously wrong ones
    Eliza Madrigal: that's not totally free because we don't have access to lots of information
    Aphrodite Macbain: thank goodness
    druth Vlodovic: prevent them from dying and you've done your job
    Eliza Madrigal: so we vote that way too
    Tura Brezoianu: I can't choose to flap my arms and fly to the moon. No problem with that.
    druth Vlodovic: if you don';t they end up dependent and limited
    Bruce Mowbray: I think schools (and parents) should give more training in crap-detection.
    Aphrodite Macbain: They can still learn a few useful lessons that might save them time, energy and money in the future
    Agatha Macbeth: God help politicians if they did
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ::;claps::::
    Bruce Mowbray: tee hee, aggers!
    Aphrodite Macbain: I learned a lot from my mother
    --BELL--1.45
    Bruce Mowbray: druth make an excellent point about children making their own choices....
    Aphrodite Macbain: often subliminal lessons
    Bruce Mowbray: and taking the consequences of their choices, of course.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: You give them the alphabet and they write the words and poems
    druth Vlodovic: "crap detection 101" today we are going to memorize the list of logical fallicies
    Bruce Mowbray: Excellent!
    Aphrodite Macbain: that would take a week druth
    Bruce Mowbray: actually more like a lifetime.
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes :)
    druth Vlodovic: "today we are going to learn memorization techniques"
    Bruce Mowbray: "Today we are goin to learn regurgitation of information techniques."
    druth Vlodovic: for all that education experts say their job is to teach people how to learn they don't do much of it
    Riddle Sideways: Occupational Crap Detection - OCD
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: cynics all
    druth Vlodovic: there is nothing wrong with memorization, compare my math speed to that of someone who memorized their times tables in grade school
    Bruce Mowbray: So, is the "solution" to let the algorithms make our decisions for us?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I can still quote bits of Macbeth
    Agatha Macbeth: Good!
    Tura Brezoianu: ADHD = seeing thorugh the crap :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Memorization is wonderful.
    Riddle Sideways: ㋡
    druth Vlodovic: we must rage against the machine while feeding it
    Bruce Mowbray: Is this an algorithm I see before me?
    Aphrodite Macbain: No- but to be aware of their power is important
    Agatha Macbeth: @.@
    Catrinamonblue Resident: agree Aph :)
    Tura Brezoianu: Only if we find the decisions are good ones.
    Aphrodite Macbain: or if we see how bad decisions are easily made
    Bruce Mowbray: To Google or not to Google; that is the question.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe use another search engine?
    Bruce Mowbray: Duck Duck Go?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'd be lost without Wiki
    Bruce Mowbray: Bing?
    Agatha Macbeth: Quack
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bonk
    Eliza Madrigal: [sorry to break in again, this is the right article, disregard previous. It seems that I am programmed to keep searching until finding] https://medium.com/@jamesbridle/something-is-wrong-on-the-internet-c39c471271d2
    Aphrodite Macbain: :) not a bad skill Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: my choice about how to live is to be with the people I'm with, though, and I still did that.... searched and searched. :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Bravo
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Seek and ye shall find
    Eliza Madrigal: war of big and small picture
    Riddle Sideways: too many take the first top search result
    Eliza Madrigal: medium articles don't often make it to top searches
    Agatha Macbeth: Which is usually an ad
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder if I had had the internet in my bedroom by the age of 13, I'd be a very different person now.
    Eliza Madrigal: neat question
    Riddle Sideways: looking for "Free Will" Amazon has that on sale with free shipping
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Aphrodite Macbain: James Brindle had
    druth Vlodovic: I did that at work once, "you want to track my work? sure I'll tell you EVERYTHING."
    druth Vlodovic: then they stopped asking lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: but "they" are machines
    Bruce Mowbray: Is phenomenology challenged by the databanks and algorithms? Do my own perceptions have value anymore?
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- but they are as much value as those held by all the others in the world
    Bruce Mowbray: I would agree, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Not one person is identical
    Tura Brezoianu: The Medium article is an interesting contrast to Harari's naive view of all-knowing algorithms.
    Bruce Mowbray: Unfortunately (maybe) some have more access, wealth, power, and influence than others. . . It's a big world, after all.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hard to imagine a successful democracy!
    Bruce Mowbray ponders the meaning of "successful"
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wish some people didnt vote!
    Bruce Mowbray: and "basic" and "needs"
    Aphrodite Macbain: (blushes - parhaps I shouldn't have said that out lound)
    Eliza Madrigal: Tura, you mean implying that it is the way used by people?
    Bruce Mowbray: Well one of Harari's main points is that we vote our FELLINGS - not our reason.
    Bruce Mowbray: FEELINGS*
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods. the algorithms are more logical??
    Tura Brezoianu: It's just that the algorithms generating those millions of kids videos clearly know nothing about anything but clicks.

    Time to scoot

    Bruce Mowbray: I must scoot away to a meditation now. Thanks, everyone, for this lively discussion.
    Aphrodite Macbain: a special kind of logic
    Eliza Madrigal: true, they were totally at the mercy of keywords
    Agatha Macbeth: Scoot well Brucie
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bruce :) thank you
    Riddle Sideways: happy scooting
    Bruce Mowbray: _/|\_
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Bruce
    Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Bruce :)
    Agatha Macbeth: _/!\_
    Tura Brezoianu: While Harari talks about algorithms that will magically diagnose cancer when it's just 17 rogue cells.
    Aphrodite Macbain: imagines scooting to meditate
    Eliza Madrigal: he's imagining improvement based on pace so far
    Agatha Macbeth: Or meditating to scoot
    --BELL--2.00
    druth Vlodovic: Zencrafters, total enlightenment in less than an hour
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Riddle Sideways: and stating that we will Always be sick someplace in body
    Aphrodite Macbain: how much?
    Riddle Sideways: you can't afford it
    Aphrodite Macbain: rats
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I keep having the question about whether people would sign up to be completely monitored by AI for say 3-6 months, and then agree to a life plan it designs... we're so improvement based as a culture
    Tura Brezoianu: Cheaper to zap a few rogue cells now than have rounds of radiation and chemotherapy later.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: interesting idea Eliza :)
    druth Vlodovic: I'd worry what parameters the AI would have for "improved"
    Tura Brezoianu: If the technology is there to do it, but that's a very big if.
    Eliza Madrigal: I think lots would do it: instagram ready in 8 months
    Riddle Sideways: reading that section, was looking at the Fitbit
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I love the portions on medicine, think on balance it is positive
    Riddle Sideways: and Insurance companies that would raise your price if you don't follow
    druth Vlodovic: "I can't imagine being enlightened, I can only imagine becoming someone who is enlightened"
    Catrinamonblue Resident: fitbit doesn't let you lie to yourself though...
    Eliza Madrigal: sharp point Cat, ouch :)
    druth Vlodovic: there is a joke from 20 years ago about a guy ordering pizza from a place that had all his information on file
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :) useful though too
    Riddle Sideways: /listens to joke
    druth Vlodovic: it goes on for a while
    Tura Brezoianu: /speculates on punch line
    Catrinamonblue Resident: lol
    druth Vlodovic: but basically they are advising him on what to order based on his fitness and his finances
    druth Vlodovic: so he ends up getting something completely different than he called for
    Tura Brezoianu: I now realise that a Youtube video I saw is a remake of that joke.
    Eliza Madrigal: that's like having a spouse
    Catrinamonblue Resident: could be he likes it better than what he was going to order ;)
    Tura Brezoianu: The Internet is our spouse.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    druth Vlodovic: heck in the bible there is a story about a debate on whether or not they should do a census, the worry being that if the king had too much info he would use it to levy taxes and raise armies
    Agatha Macbeth: Actually it's better
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for this session everyone :)
    Tura Brezoianu: ...except you can turn the Internet off :)
    druth Vlodovic: ttfn Eliza
    Aphrodite Macbain: I guess we all really have to "continue to be mindful" of dastardly algorithms
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice close, Aph!
    druth Vlodovic: theoretically Tura
    Aphrodite Macbain: thanks everyone for your data
    Eliza Madrigal laughs
    Riddle Sideways: ok, scoots back to OCD
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Everyone is scooting
    Eliza Madrigal: and skedaddling
    Aphrodite Macbain: chuckles
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'd rather slouch
    Agatha Macbeth: What a lot of scooters we are
    Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
    Tura Brezoianu: Interesting that we record all these sessions!
    Aphrodite Macbain: reading "Slouching to Bethlehem"
    Eliza Madrigal: needs a session of its own, that topic :))
    Agatha Macbeth: ♥ ♥ ♥
    druth Vlodovic: interesting that anybody reads them
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: by long-legged Eliza
    Riddle Sideways: wha, some do
    druth Vlodovic: oh we have done that, remember the kerfuffle when we deleted everyone's name from a session?
    Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Eliza :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: hundreds of years ago
    druth Vlodovic: thousandsa
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Billions and billions!
    Catrinamonblue Resident: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: wow
    Aphrodite Macbain: amazing we all remember it
    Riddle Sideways: ha
    Catrinamonblue Resident: must run :) Have some company coming :) bye all
    Catrinamonblue Resident: Thanks for a lovely time :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: what a was it again druth?
    Tura Brezoianu: bye Cat
    Agatha Macbeth: Have a good scoot Cat
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Cat. GTSY
    Riddle Sideways: spell checking kerfuffle
    druth Vlodovic: ttfn
    druth Vlodovic: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    druth Vlodovic: is there a right way to spell it?
    Aphrodite Macbain: that way looks good
    Agatha Macbeth: Thought that was something you eat in N. Africa
    Aphrodite Macbain: rofl
    druth Vlodovic: "I will have a kerfuffle with jam."
    Riddle Sideways: comes on your next pizza order
    Agatha Macbeth: Pizza be with you
    Aphrodite Macbain: and whipped cream
    Agatha Macbeth: And chips
    druth Vlodovic: mmm, pizza with jam and whipped cream
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye all
    Agatha Macbeth: TC Aphie
    Aphrodite Macbain: HAsta la vista
    druth Vlodovic: ta ta all y'all
    Agatha Macbeth: Love to the mooses
    Tura Brezoianu: bye Aph, and goodnight all
    Agatha Macbeth: Looks like that's it then
    Agatha Macbeth: TTFN
    Agatha Macbeth: And Korel always thought it was her :p

    Current version

    This revision modified by Agatha MacBeth? (Ban)

     

    The Guardian for this meeting were Aph and Bruce. The comments are by Agatha.

     

                            1.jpg

    Aphrodite Macbain's current display-name is "Aph".
    Riddle Sideways: oooooo
    Riddle Sideways: bad
    Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
    Aphrodite Macbain: put-rid
    Agatha Macbeth: He was
    Agatha Macbeth: Not in real life mind you
    Riddle Sideways: have been listening for 3+ hours to pink floyd
    Agatha Macbeth: Woot
    Aphrodite Macbain: way cool
    Riddle Sideways: blaming Adams, started it
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Agatha Macbeth: What's she done now?
    Riddle Sideways: Animals
    Aphrodite Macbain: listened to Pink Floyd?
    Riddle Sideways: Animals in songs
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Riddle Sideways: so had to play the album
    Agatha Macbeth: Les animeaux
    Agatha Macbeth: (sp?)
    Aphrodite Macbain: looks good
    Aphrodite Macbain: bon
    Agatha Macbeth: Couldn't remember if there was an e in it
    Aphrodite Macbain: animaux
    Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
    Aphrodite Macbain: looks wrong
    Riddle Sideways: anime has an e
    Agatha Macbeth: That's what I was thinking
    Agatha Macbeth: What long legs you have Liz
    Aphrodite Macbain: All the better to skip with
    Agatha Macbeth: Or skate
    Aphrodite Macbain: or leap over buildings
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hope Bruce can make it today
    Agatha Macbeth: Some leap
    Eliza Madrigal: oh, sorry... was adjusting hover height
    Agatha Macbeth: Never a bad move
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wish I could do that in RL
    Aphrodite Macbain: RL
    Aphrodite Macbain: It would mae sitting in lectures mre comfortabe
    Eliza Madrigal: oh, me too... gain a few lbs, no problem, just stretch a bit
    Aphrodite Macbain: *make $more
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, hovering in events would indeed be nice too, or in plane seats
    Aphrodite Macbain: Has everyone read or listened to chapter 3?
    Agatha Macbeth: Is your cat on the keyboard?
    Aphrodite Macbain: no just my sloppy hands
    Agatha Macbeth: Here comes Brucie
    Aphrodite Macbain: yayy
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, have listened a few times, since each time I listen I go farther then go back before session, then go farther again
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    --BELL--1.00
    Eliza Madrigal: Harari Dance
    Agatha Macbeth: So you start before you began?
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, I can't tell anymore
    Bruce Mowbray's current display-name is "Bruce".
    Riddle Sideways: thatz a way to go
    Agatha Macbeth: Brucie :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :) Hi Bruce :)
    Riddle Sideways: Tura
    Agatha Macbeth: And Tura :)
    Tura Brezoianu: hi all
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce and Tura
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, everyone.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bruce with bit of a Mr. Rogers vibe today :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes!
    Aphrodite Macbain: nice tie
    Bruce Mowbray: Won't you be my neighbor?
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Riddle Sideways: needs to put on slippers
    Aphrodite Macbain: looks for Jerome
    Agatha Macbeth: I remember Roy Rogers
    Bruce Mowbray looks for slippers.
    Aphrodite Macbain: me too
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth
    Aphrodite Macbain: and hopalong cassidy
    Riddle Sideways: hey dRuth
    Agatha Macbeth: And his horse
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, druth.
    druth Vlodovic: hey guys
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi druthie
    Riddle Sideways: trigger
    Aphrodite Macbain: and his wife, dale evans
    Agatha Macbeth: Right
    Tura Brezoianu: hi druth
    Bruce Mowbray: I saw Roy Dale and Trigger in person when I was about 8 years old.
    Aphrodite Macbain: wow- I cant believe I remembered that
    Agatha Macbeth: They were on the Muppets once
    Agatha Macbeth: He must have been about 80
    Riddle Sideways: Roy had Trigger stuffed and put on display

    Anyway, down to it

    Aphrodite Macbain: So --- has everyone read chapter 3?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yep, that's right.
    Riddle Sideways: Dale got buried
    Agatha Macbeth: Not so expensive to feed
    Bruce Mowbray: also, Roy was from Portsmouth, Ohio.
    Riddle Sideways: and almost reread too
    Riddle Sideways: thank you Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: good for you. I find I forget so much of what he writes since he talks about so much
    Eliza Madrigal: and it is all related
    Aphrodite Macbain: hard to pull out particulars
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Riddle Sideways: now am scared to get into driverless car
    Agatha Macbeth: Need to watch those particulars
    Aphrodite Macbain: do you all feel you are now run by algorithms?
    Aphrodite Macbain: and have no will of your own?
    Riddle Sideways: Google Maps vs the Prius' NAv

    Old friend returns

    Catrinamonblue Resident's current display-name is "Catrinamonblue".
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Cat :)
    Riddle Sideways: they fight
    Agatha Macbeth: LTNS
    Riddle Sideways: hey Cat
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cat!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Cat! LOng time no see.
    Agatha Macbeth: Snap
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I know it's been a long while.
    Bruce Mowbray: WB, Cat.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I have not read the book but had a bit of time and just wanted to drop in and listen to you all :)
    Agatha Macbeth: And we're still here
    Riddle Sideways: great
    Aphrodite Macbain: We are discussing Uval Harrari's book 21 sessions for the 21st century
    Eliza Madrigal: :) feel free to jump in after you drop, the topics are easy to muse with, read or not
    Bruce Mowbray: We're talking about "Liberty" today, Cat.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: ok :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Just don't mention walls...
    Aphrodite Macbain: Something we assume is a basic right
    Riddle Sideways: or the lack of Liberty
    Aphrodite Macbain: but how free are we really?
    Riddle Sideways: author dealt hard blow at Free Will
    Riddle Sideways: kilt it
    Aphrodite Macbain: despite the lack of visible walls
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    druth Vlodovic: In the movie ladyhawke one character is talking to God and says "I know you wouldn't judge me for acting according to my nature."
    Eliza Madrigal: "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."
    Aphrodite Macbain: maybe god wont but society might
    Agatha Macbeth: Badly drawn boy
    Eliza Madrigal: (Jessica Rabbit) :P
    Tura Brezoianu: "Ok, I'm a serial killer, but underneath, fundamentally, I'm really a nice guy."
    druth Vlodovic: I read it in her voice lol
    Agatha Macbeth: Any relation to Peter?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I often wonder whether my decisions are frequently made as a result of really good marketing
    Bruce Mowbray: Harari says that “liberty” means each and every person has a voice – “What do you FEEL about this?”
    Eliza Madrigal: that's a good thing, Aph, or at least that seems to be his message over all?
    Riddle Sideways: and goes on a long time on the Bexit voters
    Agatha Macbeth: Everybody has a vote but that's not quite the same
    druth Vlodovic: "Give me a boy until his 6th birthday and I'll give you the man"
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- it seems decisions are made by "feelig" rather than by rational thinking
    Riddle Sideways: oh dear
    Agatha Macbeth: That's me
    Aphrodite Macbain: and feeling is shaped by society
    Eliza Madrigal: generalized impressions
    Bruce Mowbray: Can I decide what is best for me?
    druth Vlodovic: we can reprogram our feelings but even the decision to do so is suspect
    Riddle Sideways: since you don't really know you very well
    Agatha Macbeth: Better than anyone else can
    Bruce Mowbray: Can I trust my own experiences and judgment?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Good question Bruce. I dont think I can.
    Eliza Madrigal: there are many feeling threats that, if they look at the numbers, aren't accurate... they are misdirected by the marketing machinery
    Riddle Sideways: Big Data has stored every one of your decisions and knows which is better
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :-D
    Agatha Macbeth: 'Please accept cookies'
    Eliza Madrigal: sounds so friendly!
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder how I coud make a decision without referring to what I have leard and learned.
    Tura Brezoianu: "Never take cookies from strangers."
    Aphrodite Macbain: heard
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Agatha Macbeth: Right
    Riddle Sideways: knows if you been good or bad, so you better be good for goodness sake
    Aphrodite Macbain: JUst chocolate bars
    druth Vlodovic: instead of forcing us to leave our TVs on so they can watch us they make it so we don't want to turn them off and offer up our data
    Riddle Sideways: 1984
    Agatha Macbeth: Long time ago
    Riddle Sideways: does that maths 2019-1984
    Eliza Madrigal: and even if one stops the leak in one part of the boat, they discover another... really does seem too far to undo, so we have to move forward and try to regulate more?
    --BELL--1.15
    Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose one would have to barricade oneself from the world in order to not be influenced by others
    Aphrodite Macbain: Trouble is- who does the regulating?
    Eliza Madrigal: Germany just put limits on FB
    Riddle Sideways: or always use a VPN
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I have often wondered if it really is such a bad thing that they collect data on us? If we are aware and make our choices being aware of their interference does it matter that all the adds on my facebook are about a dress I looked at?
    druth Vlodovic: is it bad to be influenced by others?
    Aphrodite Macbain: It feels too much like big brother
    Bruce Mowbray: The “smart” TV watches us while we're watching it - as does the smart phone, smart Netflix, smart Amazon, etc etc.
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's smarter than us?
    Riddle Sideways: and puts up adverts for a better refrig than the one bought
    druth Vlodovic: something I noticed with youtube is that once it thinks it knows what you want to watch, it is hard to get other sorts of videos
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Bruce Mowbray: Iss Google smarter than I am? -- It's better at retrieving data, for sure.
    Tura Brezoianu: People are always influenced by other people. That's what society is, right back to prehistoric times. Well, right back to ape times.
    Aphrodite Macbain: It learns quickly
    Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes I've felt like that, Cat, (more openness the better) but even when you give a lot, they take more.... like FB using private messages, which are... labeled...private
    Tura Brezoianu: Youtube unlearns too slowly.
    Riddle Sideways: yep Tura
    druth Vlodovic: we don't have the big splash to warn us off talking
    Aphrodite Macbain: big spash?
    Riddle Sideways: the bad choice prehistoric died. their genes did not continue
    druth Vlodovic: a problem is the enforced echo chamber
    Eliza Madrigal: definitely, what happened with the kids channels on youtube was awful/scary
    Bruce Mowbray: It sort of scares me that after I buy something online, for weeks afterward I get adverts for that thing whenever I open my browser.
    Aphrodite Macbain: what happened Eliza?
    druth Vlodovic: I didn't hear about that
    Eliza Madrigal: the algorithms took kids from one video to another...
    Eliza Madrigal: and then people started making videos, or rather having algorithms make videos...
    Aphrodite Macbain: like wtching a serial program on Netflix
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I know Bruce, I just ignore them mostly.
    Eliza Madrigal: and they ended up being these horrible things. I'll find the article
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure, parents shouldn't just hand a kid an ipad, but the society is all of our issue
    druth Vlodovic: ah, the probhlem with AI is that it wasn't raised in society so it doesn't know what we think is right or wrong
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Riddle Sideways: Ethics????
    Aphrodite Macbain: but it learns about society very quickly druth
    druth Vlodovic: I mean kids like gross and ugly because it's funny
    Riddle Sideways: oh and WHOSE ethics will we be forced to follow
    Aphrodite Macbain: because it breaks rules?
    druth Vlodovic: so something monitoring them will choose to show them what they like, not what we want them to like
    Aphrodite Macbain: There may be a day when the parents can manipulate the material to fit within their morals
    druth Vlodovic: "Perental controls" doesn't work as well as you'd like
    Aphrodite Macbain: or get them to tune to the "moral channel"
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    druth Vlodovic: heck, slap xtian values on a monitoring program and the bible certainly won't be accessible
    Riddle Sideways: and the Morals Channel is brought to you by mini Frosted Wheats
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol Rid
    Eliza Madrigal: the only moral choice
    Bruce Mowbray: Good point, druth.
    Tura Brezoianu: Harari talks about the algorithms of Facebook and the like knowing more about us than we do, but I think that misses the mark. The algorithms' only purpose is getting clicks and sales. They are optimised hard for that, and whatever you optimise for, everything else gets thrown overboard.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: so are we actually losing our liberty? with big brother watching?
    Bruce Mowbray: I agree with you Tura.
    Aphrodite Macbain: That's what Harari suggests Cat
    Aphrodite Macbain: but we are unaware of being manipulated
    druth Vlodovic: obesity is sometimes blamed for "high value" food containing lots of fat and sugar, we were programmed to seek this out back when it wasn't prevalent
    Bruce Mowbray: Our concept of “liberal democracy” will change – when algorithms make decisions for us
    Riddle Sideways: and states we are losing our decision powers/ability
    druth Vlodovic: so what we want isn't always what we need
    Bruce Mowbray: well, our genes are also "programmed" -- in a way.
    Eliza Madrigal: combined with income equality is probably the worrisome part
    Aphrodite Macbain: you cant always get what you want
    Tura Brezoianu: I think China's social credit system is a far bigger threat than Facebook, but hardly anything gets said about it in the West. I think some liberal types think it would be a good thing, if only they are in charge of it.
    Aphrodite Macbain: How does it work Tura?
    Eliza Madrigal: it is weird we're not talking about it more
    druth Vlodovic: I'm sure the social credit program is just a logical extension
    druth Vlodovic: they even have a thing that sends an alert that you are standing near somebody in debt
    Tura Brezoianu: Everyone gets rated for prosocial or antisocial activities online. As defined by the Chinese government. Too low a score and e.g. you can't get a ticket for a long-distance train.
    Tura Brezoianu: The top rank of scores are only attainable by members of the Communist Party.
    Eliza Madrigal: and it filters your friends... too dangerous to one's own reputation to hang out with mediocre credit people
    druth Vlodovic: I read a story once about a place where people had gold stars and red dots stuck to them, and anyone could put a gold star or red dot on you
    Aphrodite Macbain: wow. sounds like a lot of bureaucratization work
    Agatha Macbeth: Hope they made good use of them
    druth Vlodovic: so those with lots of gold starts got more because they had gold stars already
    Eliza Madrigal thinks of sneetches
    Bruce Mowbray: Do we have models for lives lived according to algorithms – rather than “free will”?
    Tura Brezoianu: All done automatically by silicon.
    Aphrodite Macbain: sneetches?
    Agatha Macbeth: (sneetches?)
    Agatha Macbeth: Snap
    Eliza Madrigal: Dr. Seuss, definitely worth looking up
    druth Vlodovic: the ultimate skills will be making friends, hiding skeletons and sucking up
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    Riddle Sideways: long ago, there was a Great Father Sarducci sketch on a good/bad credit system
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think anyone working in the food, hotel or fashion insustries would be run by algorithms
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol druth
    Bruce Mowbray: I found it hard to believe that if Harari had utilized algorithms (bioletric devices) that could have informed him of his sexual orientation - that he would actually have accepted it right off the bat.
    Tura Brezoianu: Someone did an experiment of "liking" everything that Facebook showed him. I forget the details, but the outcome was that his Facebook feed turned into trash.
    Aphrodite Macbain: long ago ... what happend to it?
    Eliza Madrigal: agree Bruce, my eyebrows raised at that
    Bruce Mowbray: Yep.
    Bruce Mowbray: Too many social pressure....
    Bruce Mowbray: s
    Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Bruce- emotions get in the way
    Bruce Mowbray: a LOT of things get in the way.
    Eliza Madrigal: [no good moment to add this] Here is the article about youtube, a bit long but worth reading: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/07/what-youtube-reveals-about-the-toddler-mind/534765/ , and here is another: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/11/raised-by-youtube/570838/
    Aphrodite Macbain: we have biases
    Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Eliza
    Tura Brezoianu: Algorithms have a certain self-defeating property: if you make the decisions suggested by the algorithm, it stops getting any more information about you.
    --BELL--1.30
    Bruce Mowbray: Are my sub-conscious biases necessarily inferior to algorithms?
    Riddle Sideways: thanks Eliza, more tabs
    Aphrodite Macbain: not necessarily - and t depends what you mean by inferior
    Bruce Mowbray nods, good point, Aph.
    druth Vlodovic: My son told me that he deletes everything off of his feed from time to time
    druth Vlodovic: well, by then they know everything that there is ever going to be to know about you
    Aphrodite Macbain: I delete stuff immediately
    Riddle Sideways: oh, found that the youTube page has a 'history' button and you can look at what you watched (and it recorded you watching)
    Aphrodite Macbain: so does Second Life
    Aphrodite Macbain: "Teleport History)
    druth Vlodovic: I remmeber looking at a tracker blocking program that said it would "tell the websites not to track you"
    druth Vlodovic: lol
    Riddle Sideways: found that a tab never looked at is getting opened and recorded every start of browser
    druth Vlodovic: "Pay no attention to the man sneaking past the door!"
    Aphrodite Macbain: who bothers to read all these results?
    Aphrodite Macbain: AI I suppose
    Bruce Mowbray: Databanks.
    druth Vlodovic: the logarithms
    Riddle Sideways: youtube does, just before putting up what you should watch next
    druth Vlodovic: not people certainly
    druth Vlodovic: if you get demonetized by youtube you need a tghousand views before a human is even asked to look at why
    Aphrodite Macbain: Isnt it odd that we are being only read by machines?
    Bruce Mowbray: So, our children's notions of liberal democracy will be different from our own -- perhaps they will take the databanks in stride.
    druth Vlodovic: or rather to look at the video, I don't think they ever find out why
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think you're right. Will the millennials make it better or worse?
    druth Vlodovic: instead of breaking the rules to be a rebel they will need to create order to rebel against the random nature of society
    Aphrodite Macbain: Each society in the world will be run by different algorithms
    Bruce Mowbray: So, the pre-millennials were "raise" by TV, and the millennials were raised by iPads?
    Bruce Mowbray: raised*
    Aphrodite Macbain: Which is worse?
    Riddle Sideways: (until this year) most don't think about the Censes (sp?) the way the Grandparents did
    druth Vlodovic: before that kids raised each other
    Aphrodite Macbain: Census?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. Well, there is the illusion of "free will" in both, I suppose.
    Riddle Sideways: ty
    Eliza Madrigal: I like the question of whether we're already being run by invisible algorithms in our genetics/simulation universe... and our tampering is messy imitation
    Catrinamonblue Resident: is it worse? worse than the past?
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I don't think so myself :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: hmm
    Bruce Mowbray: Are you implying a matrix situation, Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: the question goes too far, but it is a fun line of thinking
    Riddle Sideways: yep, the Matrix
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    Riddle Sideways: listen to deja vu
    Eliza Madrigal: which might make us feel a little more secure... that it is not really altogether new territory
    Aphrodite Macbain: what does deja vue sound like?
    Eliza Madrigal likes Cat's optimism
    Bruce Mowbray: Actually, that notion is VERY old... as with Leibnetz'a notion that God is thinking the universe frame by frame.
    Bruce Mowbray: Leibnitz? spelling, sry.
    Aphrodite Macbain: so we have no control Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: That would be the case, yes.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :) I am optimistic, we as a people have survived and thrived, this is just another iteration of who we are :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I just don't think we're learning fast enough... growing our hearts fast enough maybe
    Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- it's hard to keep up
    Bruce Mowbray: Of course, if one follows pure empiricism/logic, everything is the determined result of things that preceded it. . . so everything is determined, anyway.
    Agatha Macbeth: Allegedly
    Bruce Mowbray: i.e., no free will.
    Riddle Sideways: religions like that
    Bruce Mowbray: But let's don;t go there.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I always like to feel I have SOME say in my decision-making process
    Eliza Madrigal: how can we have free will if everyone has it?
    Bruce Mowbray: I agree with you, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: but I am aware my parametres are narrow
    Bruce Mowbray: Can I change my mind?
    Riddle Sideways: no
    Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm.
    Eliza Madrigal: about? lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- but within a restricted rage of decisions
    Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm, again.
    Eliza Madrigal: so a little free will? :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: good answer
    druth Vlodovic: "Restricted rage of decisions" sounds like an experimental punk band
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Tura Brezoianu: We make decisions, and act on them. That's free will enough for me. People have no difficulty talking about computers making decisions, I don't see why there should be any difficulty when it comes to people.
    Riddle Sideways: a little bit of free will makes the medicine go down, meds go down
    Bruce Mowbray: Decisions like what to study, whom to marry, etc. could be made by bio-metrics. could make better decisions than we could about our own lives.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think we can decide what colour socks we put on this morning but I'm not sure whether planning my next move is going t be decided upon just by myaself
    Catrinamonblue Resident: agree Tura :)
    Eliza Madrigal: but Harari says we choose within a range of socks we're given
    druth Vlodovic: raising kids it is best to let them make as many of their own decisions as possible, even obviously wrong ones
    Eliza Madrigal: that's not totally free because we don't have access to lots of information
    Aphrodite Macbain: thank goodness
    druth Vlodovic: prevent them from dying and you've done your job
    Eliza Madrigal: so we vote that way too
    Tura Brezoianu: I can't choose to flap my arms and fly to the moon. No problem with that.
    druth Vlodovic: if you don';t they end up dependent and limited
    Bruce Mowbray: I think schools (and parents) should give more training in crap-detection.
    Aphrodite Macbain: They can still learn a few useful lessons that might save them time, energy and money in the future
    Agatha Macbeth: God help politicians if they did
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ::;claps::::
    Bruce Mowbray: tee hee, aggers!
    Aphrodite Macbain: I learned a lot from my mother
    --BELL--1.45
    Bruce Mowbray: druth make an excellent point about children making their own choices....
    Aphrodite Macbain: often subliminal lessons
    Bruce Mowbray: and taking the consequences of their choices, of course.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: You give them the alphabet and they write the words and poems
    druth Vlodovic: "crap detection 101" today we are going to memorize the list of logical fallicies
    Bruce Mowbray: Excellent!
    Aphrodite Macbain: that would take a week druth
    Bruce Mowbray: actually more like a lifetime.
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes :)
    druth Vlodovic: "today we are going to learn memorization techniques"
    Bruce Mowbray: "Today we are goin to learn regurgitation of information techniques."
    druth Vlodovic: for all that education experts say their job is to teach people how to learn they don't do much of it
    Riddle Sideways: Occupational Crap Detection - OCD
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: cynics all
    druth Vlodovic: there is nothing wrong with memorization, compare my math speed to that of someone who memorized their times tables in grade school
    Bruce Mowbray: So, is the "solution" to let the algorithms make our decisions for us?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I can still quote bits of Macbeth
    Agatha Macbeth: Good!
    Tura Brezoianu: ADHD = seeing thorugh the crap :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Memorization is wonderful.
    Riddle Sideways: ㋡
    druth Vlodovic: we must rage against the machine while feeding it
    Bruce Mowbray: Is this an algorithm I see before me?
    Aphrodite Macbain: No- but to be aware of their power is important
    Agatha Macbeth: @.@
    Catrinamonblue Resident: agree Aph :)
    Tura Brezoianu: Only if we find the decisions are good ones.
    Aphrodite Macbain: or if we see how bad decisions are easily made
    Bruce Mowbray: To Google or not to Google; that is the question.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe use another search engine?
    Bruce Mowbray: Duck Duck Go?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'd be lost without Wiki
    Bruce Mowbray: Bing?
    Agatha Macbeth: Quack
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bonk
    Eliza Madrigal: [sorry to break in again, this is the right article, disregard previous. It seems that I am programmed to keep searching until finding] https://medium.com/@jamesbridle/something-is-wrong-on-the-internet-c39c471271d2
    Aphrodite Macbain: :) not a bad skill Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: my choice about how to live is to be with the people I'm with, though, and I still did that.... searched and searched. :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Bravo
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Seek and ye shall find
    Eliza Madrigal: war of big and small picture
    Riddle Sideways: too many take the first top search result
    Eliza Madrigal: medium articles don't often make it to top searches
    Agatha Macbeth: Which is usually an ad
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder if I had had the internet in my bedroom by the age of 13, I'd be a very different person now.
    Eliza Madrigal: neat question
    Riddle Sideways: looking for "Free Will" Amazon has that on sale with free shipping
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Aphrodite Macbain: James Brindle had
    druth Vlodovic: I did that at work once, "you want to track my work? sure I'll tell you EVERYTHING."
    druth Vlodovic: then they stopped asking lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: but "they" are machines
    Bruce Mowbray: Is phenomenology challenged by the databanks and algorithms? Do my own perceptions have value anymore?
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- but they are as much value as those held by all the others in the world
    Bruce Mowbray: I would agree, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Not one person is identical
    Tura Brezoianu: The Medium article is an interesting contrast to Harari's naive view of all-knowing algorithms.
    Bruce Mowbray: Unfortunately (maybe) some have more access, wealth, power, and influence than others. . . It's a big world, after all.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hard to imagine a successful democracy!
    Bruce Mowbray ponders the meaning of "successful"
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wish some people didnt vote!
    Bruce Mowbray: and "basic" and "needs"
    Aphrodite Macbain: (blushes - parhaps I shouldn't have said that out lound)
    Eliza Madrigal: Tura, you mean implying that it is the way used by people?
    Bruce Mowbray: Well one of Harari's main points is that we vote our FELLINGS - not our reason.
    Bruce Mowbray: FEELINGS*
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods. the algorithms are more logical??
    Tura Brezoianu: It's just that the algorithms generating those millions of kids videos clearly know nothing about anything but clicks.

    Time to scoot

    Bruce Mowbray: I must scoot away to a meditation now. Thanks, everyone, for this lively discussion.
    Aphrodite Macbain: a special kind of logic
    Eliza Madrigal: true, they were totally at the mercy of keywords
    Agatha Macbeth: Scoot well Brucie
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bruce :) thank you
    Riddle Sideways: happy scooting
    Bruce Mowbray: _/|\_
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Bruce
    Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Bruce :)
    Agatha Macbeth: _/!\_
    Tura Brezoianu: While Harari talks about algorithms that will magically diagnose cancer when it's just 17 rogue cells.
    Aphrodite Macbain: imagines scooting to meditate
    Eliza Madrigal: he's imagining improvement based on pace so far
    Agatha Macbeth: Or meditating to scoot
    --BELL--2.00
    druth Vlodovic: Zencrafters, total enlightenment in less than an hour
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Riddle Sideways: and stating that we will Always be sick someplace in body
    Aphrodite Macbain: how much?
    Riddle Sideways: you can't afford it
    Aphrodite Macbain: rats
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I keep having the question about whether people would sign up to be completely monitored by AI for say 3-6 months, and then agree to a life plan it designs... we're so improvement based as a culture
    Tura Brezoianu: Cheaper to zap a few rogue cells now than have rounds of radiation and chemotherapy later.
    Catrinamonblue Resident: interesting idea Eliza :)
    druth Vlodovic: I'd worry what parameters the AI would have for "improved"
    Tura Brezoianu: If the technology is there to do it, but that's a very big if.
    Eliza Madrigal: I think lots would do it: instagram ready in 8 months
    Riddle Sideways: reading that section, was looking at the Fitbit
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I love the portions on medicine, think on balance it is positive
    Riddle Sideways: and Insurance companies that would raise your price if you don't follow
    druth Vlodovic: "I can't imagine being enlightened, I can only imagine becoming someone who is enlightened"
    Catrinamonblue Resident: fitbit doesn't let you lie to yourself though...
    Eliza Madrigal: sharp point Cat, ouch :)
    druth Vlodovic: there is a joke from 20 years ago about a guy ordering pizza from a place that had all his information on file
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :) useful though too
    Riddle Sideways: /listens to joke
    druth Vlodovic: it goes on for a while
    Tura Brezoianu: /speculates on punch line
    Catrinamonblue Resident: lol
    druth Vlodovic: but basically they are advising him on what to order based on his fitness and his finances
    druth Vlodovic: so he ends up getting something completely different than he called for
    Tura Brezoianu: I now realise that a Youtube video I saw is a remake of that joke.
    Eliza Madrigal: that's like having a spouse
    Catrinamonblue Resident: could be he likes it better than what he was going to order ;)
    Tura Brezoianu: The Internet is our spouse.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    druth Vlodovic: heck in the bible there is a story about a debate on whether or not they should do a census, the worry being that if the king had too much info he would use it to levy taxes and raise armies
    Agatha Macbeth: Actually it's better
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for this session everyone :)
    Tura Brezoianu: ...except you can turn the Internet off :)
    druth Vlodovic: ttfn Eliza
    Aphrodite Macbain: I guess we all really have to "continue to be mindful" of dastardly algorithms
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice close, Aph!
    druth Vlodovic: theoretically Tura
    Aphrodite Macbain: thanks everyone for your data
    Eliza Madrigal laughs
    Riddle Sideways: ok, scoots back to OCD
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Everyone is scooting
    Eliza Madrigal: and skedaddling
    Aphrodite Macbain: chuckles
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'd rather slouch
    Agatha Macbeth: What a lot of scooters we are
    Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
    Tura Brezoianu: Interesting that we record all these sessions!
    Aphrodite Macbain: reading "Slouching to Bethlehem"
    Eliza Madrigal: needs a session of its own, that topic :))
    Agatha Macbeth: ♥ ♥ ♥
    druth Vlodovic: interesting that anybody reads them
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: by long-legged Eliza
    Riddle Sideways: wha, some do
    druth Vlodovic: oh we have done that, remember the kerfuffle when we deleted everyone's name from a session?
    Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Eliza :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: hundreds of years ago
    druth Vlodovic: thousandsa
    Aphrodite Macbain: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Billions and billions!
    Catrinamonblue Resident: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: wow
    Aphrodite Macbain: amazing we all remember it
    Riddle Sideways: ha
    Catrinamonblue Resident: must run :) Have some company coming :) bye all
    Catrinamonblue Resident: Thanks for a lovely time :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: what a was it again druth?
    Tura Brezoianu: bye Cat
    Agatha Macbeth: Have a good scoot Cat
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Cat. GTSY
    Riddle Sideways: spell checking kerfuffle
    druth Vlodovic: ttfn
    druth Vlodovic: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    druth Vlodovic: is there a right way to spell it?
    Aphrodite Macbain: that way looks good
    Agatha Macbeth: Thought that was something you eat in N. Africa
    Aphrodite Macbain: rofl
    druth Vlodovic: "I will have a kerfuffle with jam."
    Riddle Sideways: comes on your next pizza order
    Agatha Macbeth: Pizza be with you
    Aphrodite Macbain: and whipped cream
    Agatha Macbeth: And chips
    druth Vlodovic: mmm, pizza with jam and whipped cream
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye all
    Agatha Macbeth: TC Aphie
    Aphrodite Macbain: HAsta la vista
    druth Vlodovic: ta ta all y'all
    Agatha Macbeth: Love to the mooses
    Tura Brezoianu: bye Aph, and goodnight all
    Agatha Macbeth: Looks like that's it then
    Agatha Macbeth: TTFN
    Agatha Macbeth: And Korel always thought it was her :p

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