2008.05.09 19:00 - Like a dream

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    That evening in SL, I was still attending my RL workshop in Tokyo, and unable to come to SL. Fortunately, Maxine once more took over my role, in being present in the tea room to guarantee continuity of our once-every-six-hours sessions. She sent me the following chat log, including her comments. So from here on the `I’ person is Maxine.

    As I come to the teahouse Thor and Oberon are already there in conversation. They greet me warmly.

    Thorberg Nordlicht shouts: join us
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((somebody outside))
    Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Maxine, come in and say hello
    Thorberg Nordlicht: hello
    Thorberg Nordlicht: have a seat
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: hiya
    Maxine Walden: hi, I will
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: we wont bite

    They give me some SL maneuvering advice

    Maxine Walden: I know, just gets a little maneuvering to come in the door for some of us new ones
    Thorberg Nordlicht: i know what you mean
    Thorberg Nordlicht: easier in mouse view (M command)
    Thorberg Nordlicht: also, shift-rightarrow and shift-lefarrow help you line up with the door
    Maxine Walden: mouse view, think I tried that once and went floating around the room
    Thorberg Nordlicht: let’s you walk sideways
    Maxine Walden: thanks, I will try that…so many SL things to learn
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, i remember being a newbie
    Maxine Walden: was it long ago?
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: it is never easy this is my second avatar
    Thorberg Nordlicht: even when you think you have the individual motion commands down, it’s hard to use them in combaination

    And then we begin to talk about our experience in SL how the experience of time and relationship differs but also how free from some other constraints of RL seem to not be present

    Thorberg Nordlicht: i’ve been in SL about 18 months
    Maxine Walden: 18 months seems like a couple of lifetimes in SL perhaps
    Maxine Walden: second avatar?
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, it does seem a long time now; life goes a lot faster in SL
    Maxine Walden: isn’t that interesting about time in SL, I notice that too, much faster
    Maxine Walden: why do you suppose that is?
    Thorberg Nordlicht: not sure why that is
    Thorberg Nordlicht: but i’ve noticed personal relationships seem to develop more quickly
    Maxine Walden: the normal scale of time for me just does not seem to apply, I am so absorbed by the experience of being in SL, somehow
    Maxine Walden: it feels like another dimension
    Maxine Walden: oh, persoanl relationships as well, that is interesting and yes I would agree
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: yes somepopel make two avatars
    Thorberg Nordlicht: also, i have bought property in SL, built on it, lived in it, and then decided to sell within a few months, unlike RL where you would typically hold property at least for a few years
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: I think it is because here we dont have any of our preconceptions
    Maxine Walden: perhaps less constraints in SL?
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: it is all personality
    Maxine Walden: that is interesting, please say more about ‘all personality’
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, please elaborate
    Thorberg Nordlicht: i have an additional avatar just so i can experiment with how to “give” things to another avatar and then login as my other avatar to see how it works on the other side
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((didn’t say that ver celarly)) but point is just to experiement
    Maxine Walden: perhaps personality without the trappings of RL…oh, good experiments to have another avatar
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, also to experiment to see how groups work
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: sorry was prowsing
    Thorberg Nordlicht: you can have property owned by a group
    Thorberg Nordlicht: so i used this avatar to create the group and then had my other avatar join the group that already existed
    Thorberg Nordlicht: just to see how all that worked
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: one thing is we judge so much by body language
    Maxine Walden: I think that is what is occurring in playasbeing, land owned by a group…your group of two sounds interesting
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: to the extent I’ve had people in RL scream at me to nod my head or something instead of just saying yes
    Maxine Walden: yes, body language and expectations…
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: and the theing is body language can very from person to person
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: and looks clothing
    Thorberg Nordlicht: haha, i haven’t used “gestures” much, but some people seem to be expecting you to
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: here none of those excuses
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: it is ALL our words
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: just our purest personality
    Maxine Walden: yes, I always feel I am way behind others re gestures and things in SL
    Thorberg Nordlicht: some avatars seem to make more effective use of “gestures” than i do
    Thorberg Nordlicht: hello sky
    Maxine Walden: and the avatars seem to take the element of human expectation out in SL whereas in RL there is so much of that…

    Sky joins us and then we continue about what kind of people may visit SL. The discussion also explores how fantasies can be expressed, and experiments with changing who we are can occur in SL

    Maxine Walden: hi, Sky
    Sky Szimmer: hey there
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: plus lets face it only a certain type of person will use second life
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: so to some extent many of us are the same
    Maxine Walden: what kind of person is that Oberon?
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: also generaly speaking whatever your interest there’s a zone for it
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: so your gonna meet people with interests similar to yours
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: not to sure yet Max but I have noticed there seems to be similarities
    Thorberg Nordlicht: that’s true; i’ve stumbled across some STRANGE stuff in SL
    Maxine Walden: the more I see the less strange it seems in SL
    Thorberg Nordlicht: but also seems like people who stay in SL are somewhat technical, and just “get” the whole idea of virtual reality
    Maxine Walden: but again, agree that there is more strangeness in SL, but
    Thorberg Nordlicht: have you run across “furries” yet?
    Thorberg Nordlicht: that was new to me
    Maxine Walden: actually it seems…no I don’t think I know what furries are yet
    Thorberg Nordlicht: i guess people are into that in RL too, but SL is a perfect place to act out their fantasies
    Thorberg Nordlicht: “furries’ = people who like to dress up as furry animals
    Thorberg Nordlicht: with or without a sexual component
    Maxine Walden: it seems that folks seek to be outrageous ..yes, act out fantasies
    Sky Szimmer: I was a furry animal! It was fun.
    Maxine Walden: oh, furry animals…yes, I was just thinking of Sky, a fox, right?
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, i can imagine it’s fun; just haven’t gotten into that yet
    Thorberg Nordlicht: but it seems to be a crossover from RL for some people
    Thorberg Nordlicht: just an example
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: I got some Furry friends
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: I do like to dress as a wolf at times but do not consider myself a furry

    Sky takes us back to one of the considerations of Playasbeing, and we begin to consider the dreamlike quality of SL. Also considerations about dreams themselves

    Sky Szimmer: I wanted to be something different than I was in RL because there is a component in PaB that we are all in a dream and that we can just change that dream, and maybe change our “b”eing
    Maxine Walden: I suppose wolves don’t seem very furry…oh, nice thought, Sky
    Sky Szimmer: I truly wonder if that is possible
    Maxine Walden: please say more Sky
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, i agree, Sky
    Sky Szimmer: to change our “b”eing.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: there is a dreamlike quality here
    Maxine Walden: yes, there is a dreamlike quality
    Sky Szimmer: Well, according to my understanding, the world, the “me” and everything I know is not “real” so then it’d seem that it can all just change like the way we can change in SL
    Thorberg Nordlicht: in the past, i have built stuff just on impulse, and then looked at it and thought it’s kind of like i was “dreaming” it into being in SL
    Maxine Walden: for me the ‘boundaries’ of RL, expectations, appearance, time even perhaps just does not seem to apply and that may be part of the dream
    Sky Szimmer: It is nice to explore that in SL
    Maxine Walden: interesting we are all expressing notions of ‘dream’ at the same time
    Sky Szimmer: Although I must admit I have been very hesitant too jump in.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes

    And then about lucid dream, when the dreamer is aware of being in a dream…and Sky tells us of her capacity to change her dreams, another occasional quality available in lucid dreams

    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: you know it is like a dream… A lucid dream we can do as we please here
    Thorberg Nordlicht: then there’s the whole thing about some people report that they’ve had RL dreams about being in SL or dreams that seemed to mix RL and SL
    Maxine Walden: I have not encountered that, the RL-SL mix regarding dreams
    Sky Szimmer: what are some of the “boundaries” you are talking about, axine
    Thorberg Nordlicht: i haven’t had a SL dream in RL, but several other people have mentioned it to me
    Sky Szimmer: “M”
    Sky Szimmer: I had one.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes? tell us
    Sky Szimmer: My mind was very wrapped up in SL
    Maxine Walden: the boundaries, Sky, are those elements that comprise ‘who I am…what/how I think..’ thinks like that
    Maxine Walden: please go on with your dream if I interrupted you

    And then that fascinating element of the mixing of RL and SL experience…which can be disturbing

    Sky Szimmer: I am not sure if it was a dream or just a semi conscious state where I couldn’t get SL out of my mind
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((spending too much time in SL? :-))
    Maxine Walden: oh, you know I have had that experience, could not get SL out of my mind to go to sleep
    Sky Szimmer: No, actually, I don’t spend much time in SL
    Sky Szimmer: I have only been here
    Maxine Walden: that might be an example of SL slipping through the boundary of my RL thought
    Sky Szimmer: I don’t actually find SL outside of this interesting
    Thorberg Nordlicht: but still can’t get it out of your mind? obviously, you’re a natural for this environment :-)
    Sky Szimmer: It may be because when I first came to SL, it reminded me much of my normal RL dreams
    Maxine Walden: oh, maybe, but I have occasionally thought of SL as eroding the boundary I need for RL thought, you know space for thought
    Maxine Walden: oh, Sky?

    Sky and others continue to describe dream experiences and, being a fan of dreams I ask about detail of their experience

    Sky Szimmer: I often dream of flying through dark and weird landscapes meeting strange people
    Sky Szimmer: much like SL
    Maxine Walden: that sort of sounds like SL
    Maxine Walden: yes
    Thorberg Nordlicht: :-)
    Maxine Walden: are those scary dreams or more OK?
    Maxine Walden: not wishing to be intrusive, just wondering what the emotion in the dream might bwe
    Maxine Walden: be
    Sky Szimmer: ah. I don’t know.
    Maxine Walden: OK, just wondering, I’m a fan of dreams
    Sky Szimmer: I know. I figure most of my dreams are about escape
    Thorberg Nordlicht: how ’bout lucid dreams, where you KNOW you’re dreaming
    Maxine Walden: oh, that is interesting, what do you think about lucid dreams Thor?
    Sky Szimmer: I am usually flying to tall buildings to escape someone or some situation
    Maxine Walden: oh, Sky, to get away…yes
    Thorberg Nordlicht: i don’t have lucid dreams often, but I think they’re lots of fun… walking through walls and flying and such
    Maxine Walden: dreams can be so expressive, I think of things going on at different levels of experience at the very same time
    Sky Szimmer: I have had lucid dreams, but again, it is usally abbout some situation I don’t like, then I enter my dream and make my dream self escape
    Maxine Walden: makes me really appreciate the complexity of being (Being) human
    Maxine Walden: oh, Sky, you change your dream…is that a satisfying thing to do in the dream?
    Maxine Walden: or out of the dream? I would guess so but I don’t have lucid dreams that I am aware of
    Thorberg Nordlicht: intereting comment, Sky: taking conscious (lucid) control of your dream to escape
    Sky Szimmer: I find that it allows me to keep dreaming.
    Sky Szimmer: sometimes, I want the dream to continue
    Maxine Walden: oh, nice, very nice. To be able to keep dreaming

    There then develops a brief, lovely duet of parallel conversations

    Sky Szimmer: do you guys think it is possible to change our “b”eing in RL
    Thorberg Nordlicht: problem i have with lucid dreams is I’m so excited about having a lucid dream that i unintentially wake myself up
    Thorberg Nordlicht: not just in the dream, but wake up into RL
    Sky Szimmer: to be a entirely different person
    Thorberg Nordlicht: like logging out of SL
    Maxine Walden: two lovely conversations at the same time.
    Sky Szimmer: sorry
    Sky Szimmer: Sorry Thoberg
    Thorberg Nordlicht: don’t be sorry, i’ve come to accdept that this is just how SL group conversations work
    Maxine Walden: No, Sky, I was trying to look at both and to think of your question as well as Thors experience

    And back to dreams

    Sky Szimmer: have you ever just want the dream to cocntinue
    Maxine Walden: yes, I have wanted a dream to continue…and sometimes it does, as if it is providing something I long for…something like that.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: interesting
    Maxine Walden: is that your experience?
    Thorberg Nordlicht: who you asking?
    Maxine Walden: anyone…a quesiton to us all
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, i’ve had similar experiences as Sky
    Sky Szimmer: Sometimes, sometimes I just enjoy the dream and I want to know what happens or change it to how I want it to happen
    Thorberg Nordlicht: but seems like Sky is a more “advanced” dreamer :-)
    Maxine Walden: yes, she may be a more advanced dreamer than I as well
    Sky Szimmer: I can’t do it at will. I have try to make dreams where I can be lucid
    Sky Szimmer: it only seems when I am in danger and i don’t like the outcome then I can do it
    Maxine Walden: yes, and does that work very well?
    Maxine Walden: oh, anxiety perhaps triggers the lucid dream?
    Sky Szimmer: yes. sometimes I wake up from a dream that I don’t like, then I go back to the sleep and dream the same scenario but then I fly
    Sky Szimmer: to get away

    Lucid dreaming but then it was a bit startling to hear about dying and about being Death in the dream

    Sky Szimmer: but then I often die
    Maxine Walden: oh, my, that is so interesting…oh, dying is not so interesting
    Maxine Walden: or is it?
    Sky Szimmer: and then I wake up
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: sorry folks got a mess of IMs going
    Sky Szimmer: dying is interesting in dreams
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: I had a dream where I WAS the Grim Reaper
    Maxine Walden: please tell me more, Sky about dying in dreams
    Thorberg Nordlicht: “Grim Reaper”???? whoah!!
    Maxine Walden: oh, my Oberon
    Maxine Walden: Death itself
    Sky Szimmer: how did that make you feel
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: it was rather interesting
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: especally when they didn’t wanna come
    Sky Szimmer: when who didn’t wnat to come
    Maxine Walden: those you would ‘reap’ did not want to come?
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: I reaped a good many people
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: so I’m sure it goes without saying not all of them came willingly
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: this dream lasted three years
    Sky Szimmer: i have died and then reincarnated into some differnt person and the dream goes on. sometimes, i die and it goes blank
    Sky Szimmer: three years!
    Maxine Walden: three years?
    Sky Szimmer: in dream time or FL
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: well one night
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: but three years dream time
    Maxine Walden: oh, interesting, three years dream time
    Sky Szimmer: wow. that is intresting you had time association in dream time

    Thor felt this conversation worth saving this conversation, and we confirmed it would go to Pema. During this part of the conversation with Thor I completely missed Oberon’s mentioning of the end of his grim reaper dream in dreamtime

    Thorberg Nordlicht: btw folks, while i don’t consider myself to be the official moderator of PlayAsBeing in Pema’s absence, I’m sure Pema would be fascinated with this conversation; anybody object if i email the transcript to him?
    Sky Szimmer: how did you know it was 3 years
    Maxine Walden: I am happy for you to do that, but I had felt it was my responsibility to transcribe this session…but please if you like
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: Well it ended a few weeks after my third year aniversary as the Reaper
    Thorberg Nordlicht: oh, no problem Maxine! I’ll leave it to you, by all means!!
    Maxine Walden: I agreed to be the ‘greeter’ at this session, is what I am trying to say…
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ok, great!
    Thorberg Nordlicht: maybe you said that before and I missed it
    Thorberg Nordlicht: happy to have you be “greeter”
    Maxine Walden: yes, it is very interesting isn’t it. Oberon, I am not sure if you have been to earlier PaB sessions, but just in case, are you OK with your SL name being in the script of this session?
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: sure
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: not like I saying much lol
    Maxine Walden: We generally try to make sure everyone is OK with this , oh, good
    Thorberg Nordlicht: np
    Sky Szimmer: how did ob do that
    Sky Szimmer: i need to learn that
    Maxine Walden: great…Oberson, you mean the grim reaper is not a significant comment?
    Sky Szimmer: Ob is away
    Sky Szimmer: Maxine
    Maxine Walden: yes
    Sky Szimmer: now he back
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: no just miimized the screen
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: downloadings pics
    Maxine Walden: of dreams?
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: lol iy was an odd dream
    Maxine Walden: Oh?

    We thought of the themes of our current conversation

    Maxine Walden: it seems the theme of our conversation has to do with dreams and the dreamlike qualities of SL
    Maxine Walden: *have to do
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes
    Thorberg Nordlicht: i’ll throw in another similarity…
    Maxine Walden: please
    Thorberg Nordlicht: in RL dreams, i distinguish between whether I’m dreaming in first person or seeing myself as just another character in the dream
    Thorberg Nordlicht: that’s similar to mouse view vs regular view in SL
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((not saying that well, but you know what i mean))
    Sky Szimmer: yes indeed
    Maxine Walden: oh, yes, nice addition
    Thorberg Nordlicht: usually I see my avatar as if it’s a separate person, but in mouse view i’m seeing from my avi’s POV
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: Sky’s on the hot seat I see
    Maxine Walden: oh the hot seat?
    Sky Szimmer: haha
    Sky Szimmer: sorry, just trying to keep the kid entertained
    Thorberg Nordlicht: in RL dreams, if it’s first peron POV then it interpret as really “me”
    Maxine Walden: I see,
    Thorberg Nordlicht: but if i’m seeing myself as a separate person in the dream i interpret that it’s about some objective queality of myself, not really me
    Thorberg Nordlicht: again not saying that clearly
    Maxine Walden: and if the third person, not necessarily ‘you’…oh interesting
    Maxine Walden: oh, yes, clear enough I think
    Thorberg Nordlicht: trying to make a distinction in how i interpret that aspect of dreams
    Maxine Walden: yes, the distinction is clear I think
    Maxine Walden: may I ask what is an ‘objective quality’?
    Thorberg Nordlicht: newbies in SL often forget to use mouseview
    Sky Szimmer: i am sorry but i have to run.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: well, i didn’t say that clearly
    Maxine Walden: like me, only when I have used it I fly around the room, or not sure what I am doing, that is with mouseview
    Thorberg Nordlicht: when i’m seeing myself in the dream as a separate person, it’s like it’s not really me, he behave in ways i don’t expect
    Thorberg Nordlicht: but my real point was to relate it to mouse view vs. regular view distinction in SL
    Maxine Walden: oh, I see, like another person

    And then another possibly quartet of conversations in flow

    Thorberg Nordlicht: hmm, this all made more sense in my head before i tried to express it in this conversation
    Thorberg Nordlicht: can’t blame me for trying, though :-)
    Cha-No-Yu Japanese Tea Ceremony (Taupe): Please enjoy your ceremonial cup of cha, Maurizio Collas-san. Goziemashta arigato.
    Maxine Walden: I find that often I cannot express in words (RL words) what the dream is expressing
    Chawan : Mmmm, delicious green cha made in the ceremonial Japanese tradition, Maurizio Collas, so refreshing!
    Thorberg Nordlicht: mouse view should be separate from flying
    Chawan : Mmm..
    Maxine Walden: maybe I have them mixed up…
    Thorberg Nordlicht: M command takes you to mouse view so you can use mouse to “look around” even if your not flying
    Chawan : Mmm..
    Thorberg Nordlicht: but mouse view is very helpful when you ARE flying, also
    Chawan : Mmm..
    Maxine Walden: thanks
    Chawan : Mmm..
    Thorberg Nordlicht: mouse view good for “steering” whenyou’re flying
    Chawan : Mmm..
    butu-rei poseball: Maurizio Collas, say ‘/1 Hide’ to hide me, or ‘/1 Show’ to make me show. Or just right-click and sit on me to use me.
    Maxine Walden: its almost like I can taste the tea, seeing it described
    Thorberg Nordlicht: you go the direction you’re looking
    Chawan : Don’t you feel at one with nature now, Maurizio Collas so peaceful and relaxed.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: but enough on that….
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((anybody?))
    Maxine Walden: thanks Thor, I will give it a try
    Maxine Walden: (am having some lag)
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, annoying

    And then we all felt we needed to go, agreeing that it had been a very nice conversation

    Thorberg Nordlicht: i’ll have to leave soon
    Maxine Walden: yes, me too
    Thorberg Nordlicht: dinner in RL
    Thorberg Nordlicht: this has been fun, as always
    Maxine Walden: yes, oh, see Sky is gone as well.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: guess we’re a bit off topic from Pema’s original intent, but always interesting conversations here
    Maxine Walden: Maybe this is time to stop? yes, interesting, but you know
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes
    Maxine Walden: I am not sure this is too far off topic, I think that our
    Maurizio Collas: hi
    Thorberg Nordlicht: hello, Maurizio
    Maxine Walden: discussion of dreams and SL and the mixing is very much partof PaB
    Thorberg Nordlicht: likewise
    Maxine Walden: hello, Maurizio, afraid I am just about to go
    Maurizio Collas: nice to see you again
    Thorberg Nordlicht: i’ve met so many new people here in the past week, it’s hard to keep track of who i talked to when
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: OHHH this is funny http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j2g2axmnY8 I do not know how everyone feels about politics but it is funny
    Maurizio Collas: Maxine no problem :) hope to see you another day
    Thorberg Nordlicht: aha, Oberon is surfing on the side, huh
    Maxine Walden: I will save the transcript as I go. Yes, bye
    OberonOrinPendragon Landmann: Yeap ^.^
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, unfortunately i have to leave also; RL dinner is calling

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