2008.05.18 19:00 - A Long and Winding Road

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    Pema was the Guardian for this session, the comments are his.

    That evening, when I entered the tea house, it was already crowded inside. I heard NeitherNorist talking with Mongo and Theophrastus.

    NeitherNorist Ohl: are you both regulars here?
    Theophrastus Nikolaidis: really my first time.
    Pema Pera: Hi there!
    NeitherNorist Ohl: I see. I’ve only been here several times. And I am new to SL, too.
    NeitherNorist Ohl: Hey Pema
    Mongo McGinnis: i am regular at meditation at 6pm sl time not here at 7 pm
    Pema Pera: I’m slowly rezzing, may take a bit
    Pema Pera: Hi Mongo, good seeing you again!
    Pema Pera: Hi NN, nice to have you back here!
    Pema Pera: And Theo, good seeing you again too!
    NeitherNorist Ohl: thanks!
    Maxine Walden: hi, guys, teleporting in and up in the roof somewhere, be down soon
    Mongo McGinnis: tara farmer and I only ones showed up for meditation at 6pm tonight
    Pema Pera: Hi Maxine!
    Mongo McGinnis: hi max
    Maxine Walden: hi, mongo

    Maxine was slowly descending from the ceiling.

    Pema Pera: ah, you mean an hour ago, Mongo?
    Mongo McGinnis: yes
    Pema Pera: Was Dakini not there? She is traveling I believe
    Pema Pera: Did Isen or someone else not replace her?
    Mongo McGinnis: no no one else was there tara rang the bell
    Mongo McGinnis: both of them
    Maxine Walden: thanks for doing so Mongo
    Pema Pera: yes, glad the two of you were there!
    Pema Pera: Would have been a pity to have a gap
    Mongo McGinnis: Tara rang the Bell thank her
    NeitherNorist Ohl: hey, I have a burning question to ask you guys, if you can indulge me
    Pema Pera: yes, NN?
    Pema Pera: will do, Mongo!

    And then there were six of us, with Hotaru joining us.

    Pema Pera: Hi Hotaru!
    Pema Pera: welcome back!
    Maxine Walden: please NN
    Hotaru Myoo: Hi ya!
    Maxine Walden: Hi Hotaru
    Pema Pera: cherry blossom inspired dress, Hotaru?
    NeitherNorist Ohl: should I wait a bit longer till everybody settles in?
    Hotaru Myoo: greeting!
    Maxine Walden: nice to see you again, very nice dress
    Hotaru Myoo: of course
    Pema Pera: no go ahead NN
    Pema Pera: there will always be coming and going
    Hotaru Myoo: good to see you too Maxine!
    Hotaru Myoo: NN?
    Pema Pera: Maxine also got more flowery, since yesterday, Hotaru!
    Hotaru Myoo: Neither?
    Hotaru Myoo: Hello!
    Pema Pera: Nor?
    Hotaru Myoo: haha
    Pema Pera: Or?
    Maxine Walden: oh, yes, just a bit, but not as elegant and you, Hotaru
    Maxine Walden: please, NN
    Pema Pera: you’ll get hooked on shopping some day, Max!
    Pema Pera: just you wait :>)
    Hotaru Myoo: haha
    NeitherNorist Ohl: how should one practice the meditation on the playing as being, if there is a situation like the earthquake?
    Pema Pera: what do you think, NN?
    Pema Pera: what would you do?
    Hotaru Myoo: an addiction worth keeping at arms length
    Hotaru Myoo: you look kewt Maxine!
    Maxine Walden: thanks, Hotaru, a bit better than before
    Hotaru Myoo: is that two questions or one?
    NeitherNorist Ohl: if you worry about people who are close to you getting hurt, but you also know it is part of the impermanence of life, how do you reconcile?
    Maxine Walden: interesting and important question
    Hotaru Myoo: sorry to come and go guys…
    Pema Pera: do you see something in need of reconciliation? Why not feel and act on both?

    Hotaru had to go earlier than expected.

    Pema Pera: bye Hotaru
    Pema Pera: always nice to see you, short or long!
    NeitherNorist Ohl: bye Hotaru
    Maxine Walden: yes, Hotaru, see you soon, I hope
    Pema Pera: Maxine, don’t you want to sit down?
    Hotaru Myoo: _/!\_
    Hotaru Myoo: namaste
    Maxine Walden: oh, yes, I was waiting for the balloons to become cushions and I got lost in the conversation!
    Mongo McGinnis: namaste
    Pema Pera: NN, you can feel impermanence and still feel for others and help them
    Pema Pera: where do you see the conflict?
    NeitherNorist Ohl: isn’t there any difference between the impermanence of life and the permanence of being?
    Pema Pera: What I call Being is beyong permanence and impermanence, because it is beyond time, beyond past-present-future time
    Mongo McGinnis: permance of being?
    Mongo McGinnis: ok
    Pema Pera: what did you mean with permanence of being, NN?
    NeitherNorist Ohl: is it experienceable?
    NeitherNorist Ohl: I meant the being
    Pema Pera: more than that
    Pema Pera: any form of experience is already in Being
    Pema Pera: Being is closer to us than our nose, our thoughts, our anything
    Pema Pera: but we look for it far away
    Pema Pera: that is our only problem
    Pema Pera: every other problem is a derivative of that
    Pema Pera: but now that we talk about impermanence and time.
    Pema Pera: I don’t know whether Theo is away or not, but . . .
    Pema Pera: By the way, Theo, I was intrigued by your mentioning time, the other day, as a topic of interest — can you say a bit more?
    Maxine Walden: I may (I think he is away)

    We would later hear that Theo had RL issues, so we will pick that topic up again some other day.

    NeitherNorist Ohl: I see. However, if Being is all there is, what’s the point of helping anyone or feeling sorry for anyone?
    Pema Pera: that question presumes there is a point — within a framework — within a system of thought
    Pema Pera: Being is beyond frameworks
    Pema Pera: so I could say anything to do with Being is pointless — but you have to take that in the right sense
    Mongo McGinnis: hi trevor
    Pema Pera: making a point, having a point, is limiting . . . .
    NeitherNorist Ohl: Can you elaborate that a bit?
    Pema Pera: Sure
    Trevor Berensohn is trying to get in the door
    Pema Pera: Trever please join us!
    Pema Pera: welcome back
    Trevor Berensohn: Good to see u still rezzing here =)
    Pema Pera: hehe
    Maxine Walden: hi, Trevor
    NeitherNorist Ohl: hi Trevor
    Pema Pera: yes, we all rise up from the grey fog. . . .
    Theophrastus Nikolaidis: sorry cant focus on this as rl is in the way. will be back some other time.
    Maxine Walden: see you later Theo

    Trevor had managed to walk in, just when Theo left. So there were now five of us in the tea house.

    Pema Pera: when a flower flowers, NN, the flower does not ask what is the point of flowering
    Pema Pera: The flower just flowers
    NeitherNorist Ohl: but we humans do ask, unless it is a mistake to be human
    Pema Pera: when we ask “what is the point” we step outside of a situation, then we apply a framework, we then judge against the framework, so we are several steps removed from what is really going on
    Pema Pera: yes, we humans ask
    Pema Pera: and we have to learn to ask in the right way
    Trevor Berensohn: Is there really any way to be un-removed while thinking?
    NeitherNorist Ohl: the point on framework is a fair one
    Trevor Berensohn: Ah
    NeitherNorist Ohl: there is a tendency of humans to transcend ourselves, for good or ill
    NeitherNorist Ohl: that’s why we can’t just be
    Pema Pera: we already are
    Pema Pera: we just have to see it
    Pema Pera: I’m not trying to be difficult
    Pema Pera: I’m answering directly
    Pema Pera: and I mean it
    NeitherNorist Ohl: No, I understand what you are saying, in a way
    NeitherNorist Ohl: I don’t think you are being difficult at all :)
    Pema Pera: And believe me, I have to keep reminding myself too
    Trevor Berensohn: So you’re thinking this isn’t all some cosmic mistake, Pema?
    Pema Pera: No, Trevor, not at all
    Pema Pera: that is another framework
    Pema Pera: we have to drop such judgements
    Trevor Berensohn: But a cosmic something else more fun?
    Pema Pera: otherwise we cannot see
    Pema Pera: let’s be slow
    Pema Pera: let’s step back
    Trevor Berensohn: kk
    NeitherNorist Ohl: switching between frameworks is an important insight about humans

    I then pulled out a few more stops.

    Pema Pera: let’s look at all the threehundred twenty five assumptions that go into a single sentence like “So you’re thinking this isn’t all some cosmic mistake,”
    Pema Pera: seriously
    Pema Pera: there is so much implied already
    Pema Pera: and our task is to subtract
    Pema Pera: not to add
    Pema Pera: we have to unfold
    Pema Pera: take off all the covers
    NeitherNorist Ohl: sounds like the Tao Te Ching
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Pema Pera: exactly
    Trevor Berensohn: that many? oh my…
    Pema Pera: once you get into the habit of doing that
    Pema Pera: the Tao Te Ching becomes an open book
    Pema Pera: very very clear and precise
    Pema Pera: well, more than 325 ;>)
    Pema Pera: I only pointed at the major ones (^_^)
    NeitherNorist Ohl: How do you substract though? Isn’t that the key?
    Trevor Berensohn: Whoa I think i’ll need to do some reading up then
    Pema Pera: no reading
    Pema Pera: no focus on any particular thing right now
    Pema Pera: reading is another vice we have to drop
    Trevor Berensohn: kk not right now
    Pema Pera: if we want to stop
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Pema Pera: I know I sound crazy
    Pema Pera: and I don’t imply that we should stop reading
    Trevor Berensohn: No it’s all good stuff so far
    NeitherNorist Ohl: I love to read, the good stuff I mean
    Pema Pera: but rather that reading won’t help in stopping
    Maxine Walden: not at all, Pema, what you are saying needs to be said over and over again to most of us, I think
    Pema Pera: reading is another handicap, barrier
    Pema Pera: to myself too, Max
    NeitherNorist Ohl: Can you read without reading?
    Maxine Walden: yes, I believe that too

    And I pulled out another stop, at the danger of introducing too much religious talk; it did seem relevant though.

    Pema Pera: there is limited room for reading, yes, but the main pont is to close all books, every 15 minutes, for 9 seconds, and to be totally alone with God
    Maxine Walden: (lovely conversation, just to say I have to leave for anothe meeting in about 3 min)
    Pema Pera: in Christian terms
    Pema Pera: or totally in suchness or emptiness or openness
    Pema Pera: totally open to Being
    Trevor Berensohn: Or emptiness in Buddhist terms?
    Pema Pera: yes
    NeitherNorist Ohl: isn’t being devastivated in the earthquake also a way of being with God?
    Trevor Berensohn: I think it can or can’t be, but consciously?
    Pema Pera: well, that is a question that can be asked very simply but takes a thoughtful answer, NN.
    Pema Pera: more than a single sentence
    Trevor Berensohn: whoops wrong term lol
    Pema Pera: in principle, nothing is excluded, but in practice I don’t want to say that lightly . . . . . yes, for a totally realized person, but who of us are like that and can speak like that?
    NeitherNorist Ohl: I can even understand that intellectually, but emotionally that is very hard to swallow
    Trevor Berensohn: But it’s possible for all ppl to go from un- to realized?
    Maxine Walden: will go now, lovely to see you all, hope to see you again soon.
    NeitherNorist Ohl: bye Maxine
    Pema Pera: bye Maxine!
    Pema Pera: see you soon
    Trevor Berensohn: Good to meet u Maxine
    Maxine Walden: Bye, bye, yes, see you soon and good to meet you Tervor

    After Maxine left, Trevor, NN, Mongo and I continued.

    Pema Pera: Trevor, your question too has many assumptions
    Trevor Berensohn: Haha I’m asking all the wrong questions tonite
    Pema Pera: If you ask me “do you still drive a Mercedes” I cannot say yes or no
    NeitherNorist Ohl: I don’t think there is such thing as a wrong question
    Pema Pera: since I have never driven a Mercedes
    Pema Pera: so the question is fine, indeed, NN
    Pema Pera: but has no easy yes/no answer
    Pema Pera: the answer lies in excavation
    Pema Pera: excavating the prior assumption
    Trevor Berensohn: Perhaps more or less useful questions, though
    Pema Pera: Your last question had two hundred eighty seven assumptions ;>)
    Trevor Berensohn: Yes, that
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: useful indeed
    Pema Pera: but we won’t get to the bottom in one hour
    Pema Pera: but each time we talk here, we let a little more light shine through
    Pema Pera: so I’m enjoying this tremendously
    NeitherNorist Ohl: I know I’ve been enjoying it enormously
    Pema Pera: Mongo, do you want to add something? Sorry that I’m talking so much
    Mongo McGinnis: i am sorry i cant connect tonight i have few things going on

    By then Stevenaia dropped in, and he brought a fellow visitor, Dharma, an old friend of mine who had not visited our Play as Being sessions yet. Such a pleasure to see an old friend in a new situation.

    Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
    Pema Pera: Come join us
    NeitherNorist Ohl: Hi Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pema, I may have brought a friend
    Pema Pera: NN and Trevor are asking short questions that require very long answers ;>)
    Pema Pera: Hi Dharma ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
    Dharma Voyager: smiles hi there
    stevenaia Michinaga: tp’g is slow
    Pema Pera: How nice to see you here ! ! ! ! ! ! !
    Trevor Berensohn: Hello guys
    NeitherNorist Ohl: Hi Dharma
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Dharma
    Dharma Voyager: hello there
    Trevor Berensohn: Wow
    Pema Pera: I’m so glad you found your way to our tea house
    Dharma Voyager: smiles
    Mongo McGinnis: i have a space that no one interupts me when i meditate but i am not ther right now
    Pema Pera: np Mongo, I’m glad you’re here
    Pema Pera: Dharma is an old friend of mine
    Pema Pera: in SL terms
    Pema Pera: ;>)
    Pema Pera: where time has a different meaning
    NeitherNorist Ohl: Pema, is it even possible to talk across frameworks at all?
    Pema Pera: sure, why not NN?

    I tried to quickly fill in Steve and Dharma.

    Pema Pera: we’ve been talking about ways that questions are framed, Steve and Dharma
    Pema Pera: how many questions cannot be answered in the way they are posed
    stevenaia Michinaga: listens
    Pema Pera: they are very good questions, since they show you how to excavate assumptions that were underlying the question, that are false
    Trevor Berensohn: after much excavation
    NeitherNorist Ohl: because you said a while ago to the effect that questions arise in one framework cannot be addressed in another framework, or did I even understand you correctly?
    Pema Pera: it depends
    Pema Pera: sometimes they can be answered in a wider framework, often not in a paralllel framework

    Ziana joined us at that moment, and again there were seven of us. Somehow we kept the tea house filled to the brim.

    Pema Pera: Hi Ziana!
    Pema Pera: Wow, so many old and new friends
    Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm
    Ziana Tauber: Hiya
    Pema Pera: Dharma and Ziana, you should talk together, when you get a chance
    Pema Pera: something tells me you’ll hit it right off ;>)
    Ziana Tauber: sounds good
    Pema Pera: I haven’t introduced everybody here with all the comings and goings
    Pema Pera: but what the heck
    Pema Pera: we can just keep talking
    Mongo McGinnis: i am sorry but there are too many distractions going on here
    Ziana Tauber: please do
    Mongo McGinnis: see you later
    Trevor Berensohn: Good to see u Mongo

    While Mongo got up to leave, Ziana became fully rezzed, and I saw that both of them had very similar gossamer wings. I found that quite striking, since my suggestion for the two of them to talk was based purely on the personal impression I had of both of them, not on any particular feature of their avatars.

    Pema Pera: oh, and you even look similar, Z and D !
    Pema Pera: hadn’t noticed that yet, since Ziana was still rezzing
    Dharma Voyager: neat
    Pema Pera: what fun — I just went on ways of thinking and communicating ;>)
    Dharma Voyager: smiles
    Ziana Tauber: might have to get my son in SL, he wants to learn Go
    NeitherNorist Ohl: hey guys, I need to get going. It was great to meet and see you all. Till next time.
    Trevor Berensohn: Go?
    Ziana Tauber: Its a game
    Trevor Berensohn: Good to meet u Neither
    Trevor Berensohn: kk

    Ziana refered to the fact that I had activated the go group, so above my head and name appeared the words “Go Player”, something I had already forgotten. Alas, at that time my internet connection acted up, so I had to log out and in again, which took a while. Stevenaia would later kindly send me his chat log snippet that I had missed. I figured from the log that many of us had instability problems with SL.

    Pema Pera is Offline
    Ziana Tauber: uh oh, DC
    Trevor Berensohn: Haha
    Ziana Tauber: So, what were you all discussing, may I ask?
    Ziana Tauber: oh, no, am I here?
    Ziana Tauber: ok, yah
    Trevor Berensohn: I don’t see my chats
    Ziana Tauber: you’re still here
    Trevor Berensohn: Oops just got here too but I think it was
    Trevor Berensohn: one of my questions had 350 assumptions he
    Ziana Tauber: lol
    Ziana Tauber: what was the question?
    Trevor Berensohn: But who’s counting lol
    Trevor Berensohn: “So you’re saying that this isn’t just one big cosmic mistake?”
    Trevor Berensohn: HA
    Ziana Tauber: ah, that assumes there is someone to make the mistake, : )
    Trevor Berensohn: Did he accidently go or on purpose
    Ziana Tauber: probably accident is my vote
    Trevor Berensohn: lol that’s one….
    Ziana Tauber: I think we might be the only two here
    Trevor Berensohn: Yes it would seem so. Is this your first discussipon here?
    Ziana Tauber: yes
    Ziana Tauber: well, here like here
    Trevor Berensohn: My fourth, or so
    Ziana Tauber: I was in one somewhere else the other day
    Trevor Berensohn: Yes, that
    Trevor Berensohn: I like them
    Trevor Berensohn: and like Pema and Dakini
    Ziana Tauber: I am happy, I came here for discussions
    Trevor Berensohn: I do tibetan Buddhist meditation, so looking at it this way works for me
    Ziana Tauber: most people would thinking the thinking is work and the sitting is lazy
    Pema Pera is Online

    By the time I came back, I found Steve and Dharma and Ziana and Trevor all still there; judging from the conversation they had not all been visible oll the time, and even Ziana had not been visible to herself for a bit. Oh well, we learn to accept the quirks of SL.

    Dharma Voyager: form is emptiness… emptiness form
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb Pema
    Trevor Berensohn: Hahaha no I understand
    Ziana Tauber: OH, Steve is here, Hey Pema
    Trevor Berensohn: Oh there u r Pema
    Pema Pera: sorry internet connection broke . . . . for a while . . . still rezzing . . . z z z z z
    Ziana Tauber: ya, you look funny
    Pema Pera: you all look like you took a mud bath hehe
    Ziana Tauber: OH, I saw a good quote and I can’t remember where
    Trevor Berensohn: Ooops biz call brb
    Pema Pera: It must have been Dharma’s spell getting me back online
    Pema Pera: I saw “Dharma Voyager: form is emptiness… emptiness form”
    Pema Pera: and at that moment I took on form
    Pema Pera: and now Dharma does so too hahaha
    Dharma Voyager: smiles pardon.. crash
    Pema Pera: SL goes beyond words
    Ziana Tauber: : )
    Dharma Voyager: I was making a comment on Ziana’s comment on what she thinks a lazy buddhist is
    Dharma Voyager: smiles
    Dharma Voyager: or what ones does
    Dharma Voyager: then the SL gods punished me
    Dharma Voyager: hahahahahhaha
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Ziana Tauber: lol

    I thought this was a good time to tell a little more about how Dharma and I had met, several months ago, half an eternity in terms of SL time . . . .

    Pema Pera: may I tell everyone how we met Dharma?
    Dharma Voyager: sure thing
    Dharma Voyager: smiles
    Dharma Voyager: listens
    Pema Pera: well, once upon a time
    Dharma Voyager: oooo a story
    Dharma Voyager: curls up comfy
    Pema Pera: Pema was not very well versed in SL
    Trevor Berensohn is back and listening
    Pema Pera: he was wearing only a white hat
    Pema Pera: the hat of a scientist
    Ziana Tauber: where?
    Pema Pera: and he left his red hat at home
    Pema Pera: in SL
    Ziana Tauber: was he wearing the hat?
    Pema Pera: the hat of his Tibetan Buddhist interests
    Pema Pera: metaphorical hats, Ziana ;>)
    Ziana Tauber: lol

    I got up to speed.

    Pema Pera: so Pema was talking with other scientists
    Trevor Berensohn: Ahhhh
    Pema Pera: and starting up an astronomy organization with some friends
    Pema Pera: called MICA:
    Pema Pera: http://www.physics.drexel.edu/mica/
    Pema Pera: so while doing so he was learning about SL
    Pema Pera: and he had three questions
    Pema Pera: every story quest has three elements
    Pema Pera: so also for Pema
    Pema Pera: one question was: how to get myself look decent as an avatar
    Pema Pera: the looking-in-the-mirror question
    Pema Pera: the second question was: how to explore SL for hobbies, like playing go, one of my hobbies
    Pema Pera: the having-fun question
    Pema Pera: the third question was: how to find out what people are doing here in terms of contemplation
    Pema Pera: the having-it-all question
    Pema Pera: So, our not-so-hero set off on his triple quest
    Pema Pera: and tried to conquer the gods of SL search
    Pema Pera: formidable gods
    Pema Pera: they don’t let you pass through easily
    Pema Pera: not like the benevolent Google gods
    Dharma Voyager: smiles… kind ones… some search gods have more of a sense of humor
    Pema Pera: the SL search gods are like the Buddhist protector gods, wrathful and hard to deal with
    Pema Pera: but . . . . . .
    Dharma Voyager: hahahhaha
    Pema Pera: . . . . one day!
    Pema Pera: . . . .Pema found
    Dharma Voyager: (shushes)
    Pema Pera: all of a sudden
    Pema Pera: in one fell swoop
    Pema Pera: there was ONE ENTRY that answered all his questions
    Pema Pera: there was this mythological person
    Pema Pera: that seemed to play a role as mentor, played go, and was involved as Buddhism
    Pema Pera: the rest is history
    Pema Pera: end of story

    Alas, after an hour it had become time for me to go.

    Trevor Berensohn: How all-encompassing
    stevenaia Michinaga: only one?
    Pema Pera: for now ;>)
    Pema Pera: actually, I have to leave my hotel now
    Pema Pera: 12 noon in Tokyo, check out time
    Dharma Voyager: I’m still having horrible lag
    Pema Pera: yeah, me too
    Trevor Berensohn: Awwwwww
    Pema Pera: everyone drops out and in.
    Ziana Tauber: I thought you were typing for an awful long time
    Dharma Voyager: should I remove any search critera from me?
    Dharma Voyager: smiles
    Trevor Berensohn: I look forward to more about assumptions soon Pema
    Dharma Voyager: j/k
    Pema Pera: nonono Dharma, stay as you are!
    Pema Pera: sorry, Ziana, have to run
    Ziana Tauber: cya
    Pema Pera: wonderful meeting you all here!
    Dharma Voyager: very neat.. I have been playing with wordpress
    Dharma Voyager: oh see you next time!
    Trevor Berensohn: Good to see u Pema
    Pema Pera: be well, and as you know we gather here four times a day, 1 and 7 both am and pm
    Pema Pera: so a next session is at most 6 hours away ;>)
    Dharma Voyager: how do you choose the topic?
    Ziana Tauber: : )

    At that point Genesis walked in.

    Pema Pera: he Gen!!!!
    Pema Pera: Just when I have to leave
    Trevor Berensohn: This is such an interesting and confusing place
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
    Pema Pera: the topic, Dharma, is Playing as Being
    genesis Zhangsun: Oh too bad! :)
    Pema Pera: so anything goes here
    Pema Pera: as long as it is playful
    Pema Pera: and everything is part of Being anyway
    Ziana Tauber: like metaphorical hats and mirrors
    Ziana Tauber: did I get that right?
    Pema Pera: Genesis will explain!
    Pema Pera: she knows it all ;>)
    Pema Pera: bye everybody!
    Pema Pera: hehe, Gen, good luck !
    Dharma Voyager: nite nite
    Pema Pera is Offline

    I got up and left, and wondered what Genesis would do with the baton I had tossed toward her. Fortunately, Stevenaia kept a log, which he later emailed to me, so here is the continuation. It turns out that the party would go on for another hour!

    Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm
    Ziana Tauber: I have a not so easy question
    Ziana Tauber: anyone mind?
    genesis Zhangsun: Yes please
    genesis Zhangsun: this is the place to ask
    Ziana Tauber: Ok, I understand “emptyness” being “based” on
    dependent origination
    Ziana Tauber: but I don’t understand how that rules out
    reincarnation as opposed to rebirth
    Ziana Tauber: ?
    Trevor Berensohn: It does?
    Ziana Tauber: I have read some who say it does
    Trevor Berensohn: kk
    Ziana Tauber: is just my current curiosity
    Trevor Berensohn: First what’s the difference
    Ziana Tauber: and may I say you Avatar, Trevor is way cool
    Ziana Tauber: reincarnation is a “self” reborn
    Ziana Tauber: rebirth is hmmmm
    Trevor Berensohn: Oh thank you I love ur glasses =D
    Ziana Tauber: rebirth is different
    Ziana Tauber: but am having a hard time comeing up with the words
    Dharma Voyager: is that across the board belief in reincarnation or mainly tibetan?
    Trevor Berensohn: Ah alright I am new to TB study
    Ziana Tauber: I think tibetan is less firm on that because of Tulku’s but I could be wrong
    Dharma Voyager: the little I know is more Zen
    Ziana Tauber: what does Zen have to say about it?
    Dharma Voyager: I think that makes it a little different focus… but I really don’t know about it
    Ziana Tauber: oh, well, is fun to try to work stuff out
    Dharma Voyager: I’m not sure it depends on what form you are born into
    Trevor Berensohn: Well I was asking similar questions of a friend today at lunch lol
    Dharma Voyager: I’m really a beginer… really really a beginner but that seems a bit dualistic
    Trevor Berensohn: Hard to put this “reborn” experience into words, eh
    Ziana Tauber: ya
    Trevor Berensohn: I can say I have the experience, but not necesarrily the memories
    genesis Zhangsun: I am still not clear on what is meant by reborn v. reincaranted

    I must say, I wouldn’t have known either. I am not familiar with these distinctions, though I can see that it might be interesting to make them.

    Trevor Berensohn: So if hits self were this person here in this body, then no it’s not the same
    genesis Zhangsun: what is reborn exactly
    Ziana Tauber: reborn is causes continued, reincartion is a self
    Dharma Voyager: in truth we have always been and we will always be?
    Dharma Voyager: form or personality seems to be grasping at ego
    genesis Zhangsun: isn’t it through the self through reincarnation that causes continue?
    Ziana Tauber: but we as an “entity”?
    Trevor Berensohn: I don’t see how being is even possible, but ok
    Dharma Voyager: to “be” is to “are”
    genesis Zhangsun: form is emptiness and emptiness is form
    Dharma Voyager: I think
    Ziana Tauber: oh, I heard this great line
    Ziana Tauber: lets see
    Ziana Tauber: instead of asking “what am I” we should as “what is I”
    Dharma Voyager: I think that is probably where Zen and Tibetans kind of split… I may not be useful here…
    Trevor Berensohn: it “isn’t” lol
    Dharma Voyager: “we are”
    Ziana Tauber: Oh, how can you not be useful?
    Dharma Voyager: I’m so new… I really see things plainly
    Ziana Tauber: oh I think there is an I it is just I is confused
    Ziana Tauber: double entendre there Ima thinkin
    genesis Zhangsun: In what way is there an I?
    Ziana Tauber: sorry, spent all days looking for data entry errors
    Ziana Tauber: in what way is there not
    genesis Zhangsun: how is it confused?
    Ziana Tauber: the I is confused by thinking it is separate
    Trevor Berensohn: Hmmmm
    genesis Zhangsun: you mean that our minds are constantly focused on this self so in that way you have to believe its there?
    Trevor Berensohn: Perhaps “I” misses the point
    Ziana Tauber: don’t think you have to believe it is there
    Ziana Tauber: but yes, I guess we do in order to get along in the mundane world

    At this point Dharma did burst out in song, and Ziana throw in a great dishwashing metaphor.

    Dharma Voyager: I am he and you is he and you are me and we are all together
    Dharma Voyager: smiles
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Trevor Berensohn: The collective we?
    Ziana Tauber: ah, maybe I is just a tool to wash the dishes
    genesis Zhangsun: How does it help us exist in this mundane world?
    Trevor Berensohn: Not this I, Z lol
    Ziana Tauber: lol
    Ziana Tauber: ok, will try this one gen
    Trevor Berensohn: But without going thru the exercise of “i”,awareness can’t happen
    Trevor Berensohn: So I think a tool, yes
    Trevor Berensohn: a non-existent tool, but it works
    Ziana Tauber: hmmmmm
    genesis Zhangsun: a raft to cross the river
    Ziana Tauber: not non-existent
    Dharma Voyager: self awareness is a means to an end
    Trevor Berensohn: Only thing that does
    Ziana Tauber: is not independently existent
    Trevor Berensohn: inter-existent
    Ziana Tauber: I am gonna have to work on how to explain the “mundane” think in chat
    genesis Zhangsun: yes I think I understand you Ziana about the mundane world
    genesis Zhangsun: you need to believe you exist to accomplish anything
    Trevor Berensohn: So mind is collectively writing lots of seemingly separate fictions
    Trevor Berensohn: ?
    Ziana Tauber: I think we need to take it for granted
    genesis Zhangsun: but I guess I ask you whether it helps because I often find it does not help
    genesis Zhangsun: to focus on the self
    genesis Zhangsun: it is actually distracting
    Ziana Tauber: oh, not focus,
    Ziana Tauber: I mean take it for granted
    Dharma Voyager: A unfocused mind makes story lines for comfort… a focused mind has more chance to see the truth

    The conversation touched upon other interesting points, from the transparency of self to the connection with Being.

    Ziana Tauber: like if you drive a stick shift
    Ziana Tauber: it is harder to shift if you are conscious of who is shifting, if at the same time yo have to work the clutch, turn on the turn signal, let off the gas, turn the stearing wheel, etc
    Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm or easier if you’re aware of all of it simultaneously
    Ziana Tauber: can you do that? remember when you were starting to learn and you actually did pay attention to all that, we are lucky we’re still alive
    Trevor Berensohn: But we learned
    Ziana Tauber: and we forgot : )
    Trevor Berensohn: Because we payed attention first
    genesis Zhangsun: but perhaps Being is about a state where all that comes naturally
    Trevor Berensohn: Now no need to
    genesis Zhangsun: because perhaps it is our natural essence with which we connect
    genesis Zhangsun: not a manual
    genesis Zhangsun: not a guidebook
    Ziana Tauber: what is our natural essence?
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Trevor Berensohn: that’s why meditation is a tool to get thru to perceiving directly
    Trevor Berensohn: But is it needed after that?
    Ziana Tauber: perceiveing what?
    Ziana Tauber: I find I can’t meditate and drive very well
    Trevor Berensohn: Emptiness

    Thorberg dropped in, so again there were six: Dharma, Stevenaia, Trevor, Ziana, Genesis, and Thorberg.

    Ziana Tauber: Hey Thor
    Trevor Berensohn: Hey there
    Thorberg Nordlicht: oh, hello; surprised to find anyone here at this hour; just wandered by; hope i’m not crashing the party
    Dharma Voyager: unless it is driving mediation
    Dharma Voyager: walking meditation
    Dharma Voyager: wasking dishes meditation
    Trevor Berensohn: Haha glad ur here
    genesis Zhangsun: yes exactly Dharma!
    Dharma Voyager: or living in the present perhaps?
    Ziana Tauber: can you do driving meditation? tell me how
    genesis Zhangsun: This is what zen is about for me
    Thorberg Nordlicht: mind if i join you for a few minutes?
    genesis Zhangsun: what meditation is
    Ziana Tauber: please do
    genesis Zhangsun: oh please do Thor
    Ziana Tauber: driving meditation
    Dharma Voyager: by driving and focusing on driving
    Thorberg Nordlicht: thanks
    Dharma Voyager: and not on the cell phone
    Dharma Voyager: or the radio
    Trevor Berensohn: Am I sitting funny?
    Dharma Voyager: and not getting pissed off when the guy next to you cuts you off
    Ziana Tauber: what about anticipating what the driver up ahead is gonna do?
    Dharma Voyager: makes sens?
    Dharma Voyager: it is part of the act of driving
    Ziana Tauber: ah, I see
    Trevor Berensohn: I like to um “hold” compassion or emptiness in my mind-set while doing all those things
    genesis Zhangsun: but the most important thing in driving is to be present
    Dharma Voyager: I would hope that it would be a part of giving yourself to that task
    Trevor Berensohn: Is that similar?
    Dharma Voyager: now you play with words
    genesis Zhangsun: so that you can anticipate the guy ahead of you
    Ziana Tauber: empty mind while driving, scarey : )
    Dharma Voyager: I think this was the original topic.
    genesis Zhangsun: I don’t think emptiness is about an empty mind
    Dharma Voyager: why you can’t jump logical steps and expect an answer
    Dharma Voyager: laughs

    The atmosphere was getting even more playful.

    Ziana Tauber: I was playing
    Trevor Berensohn: It’s like “driving with intent” for me
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Trevor Berensohn: haha
    genesis Zhangsun: lol
    Ziana Tauber: shhhhh
    genesis Zhangsun: well that was a lovely demonstration of manhood Trevor
    Ziana Tauber: lol
    Trevor Berensohn: I was sitting “wrong”
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: nice movements really!
    genesis Zhangsun: fantastic avatar I agree
    Trevor Berensohn: So had to flourish
    Trevor Berensohn: TY it’s more how I feel than the human looking stuff
    Ziana Tauber: how do you describe your avatar to soeone RL?
    Trevor Berensohn: So were u saying that the only thing that gets “reborn” is karma?
    Ziana Tauber: hmmmmmm, I think I was
    Trevor Berensohn: I tell em “you remember, that one life…”
    Trevor Berensohn: lol
    Ziana Tauber: lol
    Trevor Berensohn: Just more gray, not blue
    Trevor Berensohn: Then they get it
    Trevor Berensohn: Wait so we’re not emanations of mind??
    Ziana Tauber: what is mind?
    Trevor Berensohn: Oh wow

    Types stopped by, and the party grew.

    Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Types
    Types Sideways: hi there
    genesis Zhangsun: Welcome Types
    Trevor Berensohn: Hi types
    Types Sideways: slow rezzing
    Ziana Tauber: Hey Types
    Trevor Berensohn: more coolness
    genesis Zhangsun: wow your wings are amazing!
    Types Sideways: ty
    Dharma Voyager: very nice
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((thinking: gotta get me some wings!))
    Trevor Berensohn: that’s what I’m working on Z
    Types Sideways: hehehe
    Types Sideways: got a LM
    Types Sideways: hehehe
    Trevor Berensohn: LM?
    Ziana Tauber: we are emanations for mind, our own mind, oh no
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((thinking: Dharma’s wings ain’t so shabby either :-))
    Trevor Berensohn: hmmm leave out the “our”
    Types Sideways: hehehe
    Trevor Berensohn: lol
    Types Sideways: true
    Trevor Berensohn: Oh and “own” lol
    Dharma Voyager: freebies I have many… if you would like some :)
    Types Sideways: generous
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((thinking: uh, oh, did I think that out lowd))
    Types Sideways: hehehe
    Trevor Berensohn: (looks like it)\
    Trevor Berensohn: heh
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((thinking: fingers can’t spell; i meant “loud”))

    The conversation turned to practice.

    genesis Zhangsun: I really appreciate all of your questioning Ziana
    Ziana Tauber: oh, thanks, I start to get self conscious
    genesis Zhangsun: practice is more difficult than theory I agree
    genesis Zhangsun: I think it is exactly your type of questioning that leads to truth
    genesis Zhangsun: so I really respect it
    Trevor Berensohn: Is practice blissful at times for anyone else here tho?
    Dharma Voyager: sometimes
    Dharma Voyager: very much so
    genesis Zhangsun: beyond bliss ;)
    Trevor Berensohn: I wonder why I resist it when it’s so cooooool when I do
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, i find practice to be “blissful” sometimes
    Trevor Berensohn: haha we have no words huh
    Ziana Tauber: I don’t know what bliss is besides what people in Boulder pretend to feel, but is warm and like a blanket sometimes
    Trevor Berensohn: its’ THAT good
    Types Sideways: when the I drops, the bliss seems to shine
    Dharma Voyager: hahahahha
    Thorberg Nordlicht: but the soto tradition teaches that that bliss is just as much an illusion as suffering
    Trevor Berensohn: When you drops?
    Dharma Voyager: agrees with Types
    Types Sideways: the I that wants bliss
    genesis Zhangsun: yes I like that yes the” I ” dropping
    Dharma Voyager: (zen :)
    Trevor Berensohn: Ah so is it as useful as suffering or a distraction?
    genesis Zhangsun: *Types oops typo
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Thorberg Nordlicht: “i want bliss” is *still* a form of “attachment”
    Types Sideways: :)

    The discussion focused further on suffering.

    Ziana Tauber: anyone read the latest Shambala sun?
    Dharma Voyager: suffering is caused by grasping and aversion
    Trevor Berensohn: I think itl stil helps in the beginning
    Types Sideways: Shambala Sun
    Types Sideways: yes
    Ziana Tauber: is cool article in there
    Thorberg Nordlicht: and the ultimate suffering is to grasp at bliss
    Trevor Berensohn: Oooo do tell
    Dharma Voyager: nods
    Dharma Voyager: same as aversion to pain
    Ziana Tauber: that “suffering” might be better translated as “unease”
    Dharma Voyager: suffering is a kick to the groin
    Dharma Voyager: laughs
    Dharma Voyager: or knee
    Trevor Berensohn has missed the point again
    Types Sideways: unease
    Ziana Tauber: I think suffereing is fairly easy to overcome
    Types Sideways: not ease
    Trevor Berensohn: haha
    Types Sideways: interesting
    Thorberg Nordlicht: “unease” = “dukha”
    Ziana Tauber: just don’t get dramatic and suffering tends to be over
    Ziana Tauber: unease on the other hand
    Thorberg Nordlicht: first noble true: life is dukha (unsatisforyness)
    Ziana Tauber: wow, that is hard to “get rid of”
    Thorberg Nordlicht: *unsatisfactoryness
    Dharma Voyager: or life is suffering
    Ziana Tauber: I don’t think life suffers
    Ziana Tauber: I think life is life

    The notion of not-doing came up as well.

    Thorberg Nordlicht: nothing you can *do* to make the mud settle out of the murky water
    Types Sideways: true
    Types Sideways: all doing
    Trevor Berensohn: Oops I lagged
    Thorberg Nordlicht: only the “action” of inaction
    Types Sideways: wrong way
    Thorberg Nordlicht: the effort of non-effort
    Types Sideways: yes
    Ziana Tauber: the humor of the absurdity
    Types Sideways: :)
    Thorberg Nordlicht: let the mud settle out of the water by leaving it alone and just observing
    Trevor Berensohn: Then ur saying don’t meditate for the bliss
    Dharma Voyager: or enjoy the mud
    Dharma Voyager: accept it as it is
    Ziana Tauber: I remember one day meditating
    Thorberg Nordlicht: right! just observe
    Ziana Tauber: and getting a little frustated that it wasn’t more peaceful
    Trevor Berensohn: Ah I like that Thorb
    Thorberg Nordlicht: if you grasp at the bliss, that too will cause suffering
    Ziana Tauber: and then realized that that is exactly what it is
    genesis Zhangsun: beyond bliss
    genesis Zhangsun: beyond suffering
    Types Sideways: meditation can help us notice something
    Ziana Tauber: so I “chuckled” the rest of the time thinking “so this is meditation”
    Thorberg Nordlicht: concur: “beyond bliss”
    Dharma Voyager: mediation is the place where we can observe the mud
    Ziana Tauber: to get beyond something one must first get there
    Thorberg Nordlicht: if you “think” it’s meditation, it’s not
    Dharma Voyager: not really meant to be peaceful
    Dharma Voyager: smiles
    Types Sideways: :)
    Trevor Berensohn: Beyond seems to b a recurring theme
    Ziana Tauber: like there is someone where to go, we’re funny
    Types Sideways: going is the problem
    Types Sideways: going away

    Dakini stopped by, perhaps called upon by Thorberg’s mantra :-)

    Ziana Tauber: Hey Dakini
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Dakini
    Thorberg Nordlicht: “beyond” = “gate”
    Types Sideways: hi Dakini
    genesis Zhangsun: welcome to your own teahouse
    Ziana Tauber: Why can’t people chant in english? (another question I have)
    Dharma Voyager: Namste
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Trevor Berensohn bows to Dakini
    Dakini Rhode: hi! Just stopping by to say hi!
    Types Sideways: good question
    Dharma Voyager: (loves the heart sutra)
    Ziana Tauber: hi!
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ooh, now that’s very Zen; welcoming her to her own teahouse!
    Types Sideways: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: lol
    genesis Zhangsun: Again wow what a stud!
    Ziana Tauber: his robe hit me in the face, how zen
    Ziana Tauber: hehehe
    Types Sideways: :)
    Trevor Berensohn: hahaha no it was an illusion
    Trevor Berensohn: and what’s up with this cushion
    genesis Zhangsun: well only virtually an illusion :)
    Ziana Tauber: it was an illusion
    Dakini Rhode: Trev you’re on the tinies cushion
    Ziana Tauber: darn Gen types faster
    Types Sideways: hehehe
    Dakini Rhode: doing yoga :-)
    Trevor Berensohn: What is that my dear?
    Trevor Berensohn: Uh oh can’t have me doing that lol
    genesis Zhangsun: lol
    Ziana Tauber: looks painful from here
    Trevor Berensohn: feels impossible
    Dakini Rhode: looks very flexible :-)
    Trevor Berensohn: =P

    I guess for someone not present at the party at that time, the above exchange will remain shrouded in mystery, though we can make some guesses as to what might have happened :-).

    Ziana Tauber: types did you change your hair color?
    Types Sideways: depends
    Types Sideways: what was I last time?
    Ziana Tauber: maybe Wednesday
    Types Sideways: a human
    Types Sideways: like this?
    Types Sideways: same hair
    Ziana Tauber: I remember brown hair maybe, no biggy
    Types Sideways: k
    Dakini Rhode: lol Trevor you gonna stay there?
    Trevor Berensohn: oops biz phone call sorry
    Trevor Berensohn: Aaaahhhhhhhh
    Ziana Tauber: Dakini you look like you
    Dakini Rhode: my real avatar or my SL avatar?
    Types Sideways: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: I liked this question of yours Ziana about what is beyond and your metaphor that it was a place
    genesis Zhangsun: could you talk more about that
    Dakini Rhode: both i guess :-)
    Ziana Tauber: ummm, meaning to get beyond you have to get somewhere first?
    genesis Zhangsun: do you?
    Green Tea (Gyokuro): Mmmhh… enjoy the best green tea Types Sideways
    Ziana Tauber: if you use the word beyond it implies beyond somewhere
    Dakini Rhode: beyond is beyond getting somewhere
    Ziana Tauber: I think getting here is much harder than getting there
    Types Sideways: true Dakini
    Trevor Berensohn: Way!
    Dakini Rhode: nowhere to go anyway
    Trevor Berensohn: (sorry back to phone call lol)
    Ziana Tauber: No, I am an american so there is always someplace to go and something to do

    The conversation kept circling back to the notion of beyond.

    Dakini Rhode: beyond is beyond here and there
    Ziana Tauber: : )
    genesis Zhangsun: could it be though that you stand oyes Dakini
    Types Sideways: where do you go to find yourself?
    genesis Zhangsun: sorry
    genesis Zhangsun: oops
    genesis Zhangsun: I concur Dakini
    Ziana Tauber: Do you ever wonder how all of this would have been languaged if “buddhism” emerged in “english”?
    Types Sideways: yes
    Trevor Berensohn: Perhaps it is
    Ziana Tauber: I really like how Robina Courtin goes on about how we need to demystify it all
    genesis Zhangsun: so Dakini then if beyond is beyond here or there than it sounds like it is not a destination
    genesis Zhangsun: is that correct
    genesis Zhangsun: it seems like it cannot be compared to a destination
    Dakini Rhode: my understanding is that beyond is beyond duality
    genesis Zhangsun: it is not as though you get somewhere than you go beyond
    Thorberg Nordlicht: gotta go; real life (dinner) calling; btw, i’m host/greeter tomorrow (Monday) evening at 7 PM; everyone please stop by if you’re available
    genesis Zhangsun: yes exactly duality
    Ziana Tauber: “going beyond” duality is a statement of duality
    Types Sideways: bye Thor
    Trevor Berensohn: Have a good din din Thor
    genesis Zhangsun: lol
    genesis Zhangsun: bye Thor!
    Ziana Tauber: ya thor

    Thor left, but aftersion, the conversation continued two hours (!) since the beginning of this session.

    Dakini Rhode: how is that Ziana
    Ziana Tauber: hmmmm,
    Ziana Tauber: ok,
    Ziana Tauber: what does “beyond” mean?
    Trevor Berensohn: That it isn’t “this” or “that”?
    Ziana Tauber: come to think of it it might have come from “be Yonder”
    Ziana Tauber: yonder is over there
    Trevor Berensohn: But isn’t NOT “this” or “that”?
    Ziana Tauber: there can be no “over there” unles there is a here and there
    Ziana Tauber: “here and there” is dualistic
    Trevor Berensohn: OK why am I n the front row again
    Ziana Tauber: cuz you bad
    Types Sideways: hehehe
    Trevor Berensohn: Nyahaha
    Dakini Rhode: are we looking at the whole heart sutra or just the om gate gate paragate mantra?
    Trevor Berensohn: Um didnt’ know we were looking at either
    Types Sideways: say what?
    Dakini Rhode: if you take the whole heart sutra the meaning is clarified
    Ziana Tauber: someone would have to translate that for me
    genesis Zhangsun: WOW!
    Ziana Tauber: we weren’t doing heart sutra : )
    Ziana Tauber: hmmmmm
    Trevor Berensohn: we were doing parcheesey
    Ziana Tauber: lol
    Dakini Rhode: gone, gone beyond, gone utterly beyond, swaha!
    Trevor Berensohn: Yes, that!
    Ziana Tauber: beyond what?
    Dakini Rhode: is that the “gone beyond” we were talking about?
    Ziana Tauber: it started as beyond bliss I think
    Trevor Berensohn: I think I just asked “does anyone else feel blissful when theny meditate?” and these ppl are DEEP
    Types Sideways: maybe not beyond better
    Ziana Tauber: lol,point Trev
    Types Sideways: here
    Dakini Rhode: yes
    genesis Zhangsun: Yes
    Trevor Berensohn: Love em

    Various animals were invoked.

    Dakini Rhode: i’m a bliss junkie
    Ziana Tauber: I like pain sometimes, but its a secret (and no, not like that)
    Types Sideways: glad you are Dakini
    Trevor Berensohn: Is Steve here?
    stevenaia Michinaga: always
    Trevor Berensohn: Oh hi
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves
    Dakini Rhode: hey Steve
    Trevor Berensohn waves back cheerfully
    stevenaia Michinaga: …smile
    Ziana Tauber: /wave
    Trevor Berensohn: Hey!
    Ziana Tauber: hehe
    Dakini Rhode: Over here!
    Ziana Tauber: got another one
    Trevor Berensohn: wha-whaaaa?
    Ziana Tauber: It seems like our mind is what makes it possible to get “enlightened” but don’t yhou think it is a huge hinderance, what if my dog is enlightened and I am just too arrogant to know
    Trevor Berensohn: types, I have hair envy
    genesis Zhangsun: first there is aHAHA
    Ziana Tauber: I guess that is 2 questions
    Types Sideways: LOL
    genesis Zhangsun: oops again
    Ziana Tauber: I have wing envy
    Types Sideways: steady trever
    Dharma Voyager: I think my cat’s are the buddha
    genesis Zhangsun: HAHA
    Ziana Tauber: (but he is raptor and I am insect so kinda scarey too)
    Trevor Berensohn: I think I know a dog-Buddha
    genesis Zhangsun: but they are not conscious
    genesis Zhangsun: so they don’t know it
    Dharma Voyager: just playing with that bug… well… till it is dead… but perhaps that is their way of really appreciating life
    Dharma Voyager: smiles wide
    genesis Zhangsun: ;):
    Ziana Tauber: do we really know that?
    Trevor Berensohn: lol Z
    Dharma Voyager: Mu
    Ziana Tauber: lol
    Ziana Tauber: Dont you think Buddha must have laughed when he became enlightened?
    Trevor Berensohn: His eyes say it quite clearly
    genesis Zhangsun: when did he stop laughing?
    Trevor Berensohn: Hope he still is
    Trevor Berensohn: =D

    Dakini mentioned meeting the 17th Karmapa, but alas, the chatlog stopped soon thereafter. I am looking forward to hearing more from her about that meeting!

    Dakini Rhode: I was with a living buddha today
    Types Sideways: you?
    Dakini Rhode: the 17th karmapa
    Trevor Berensohn: O very cool
    Ziana Tauber: but is there a “laughed out loud” sutra? No! I think that is the price of insitutionalization
    genesis Zhangsun: Oh wow Dakini!!
    genesis Zhangsun: Where did you see him?
    Ziana Tauber: Very cool, I missed out on the tickets

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