NeitherNorist Ohl: are you both regulars here?
Theophrastus Nikolaidis: really my first time.
Pema Pera: Hi there!
NeitherNorist Ohl: I see. I’ve only been here several times. And I am new to SL, too.
NeitherNorist Ohl: Hey Pema
Mongo McGinnis: i am regular at meditation at 6pm sl time not here at 7 pm
Pema Pera: I’m slowly rezzing, may take a bit
Pema Pera: Hi Mongo, good seeing you again!
Pema Pera: Hi NN, nice to have you back here!
Pema Pera: And Theo, good seeing you again too!
NeitherNorist Ohl: thanks!
Maxine Walden: hi, guys, teleporting in and up in the roof somewhere, be down soon
Mongo McGinnis: tara farmer and I only ones showed up for meditation at 6pm tonight
Pema Pera: Hi Maxine!
Mongo McGinnis: hi max
Maxine Walden: hi, mongo
Maxine was slowly descending from the ceiling.
Pema Pera: ah, you mean an hour ago, Mongo?
Mongo McGinnis: yes
Pema Pera: Was Dakini not there? She is traveling I believe
Pema Pera: Did Isen or someone else not replace her?
Mongo McGinnis: no no one else was there tara rang the bell
Mongo McGinnis: both of them
Maxine Walden: thanks for doing so Mongo
Pema Pera: yes, glad the two of you were there!
Pema Pera: Would have been a pity to have a gap
Mongo McGinnis: Tara rang the Bell thank her
NeitherNorist Ohl: hey, I have a burning question to ask you guys, if you can indulge me
Pema Pera: yes, NN?
Pema Pera: will do, Mongo!
And then there were six of us, with Hotaru joining us.
Pema Pera: Hi Hotaru!
Pema Pera: welcome back!
Maxine Walden: please NN
Hotaru Myoo: Hi ya!
Maxine Walden: Hi Hotaru
Pema Pera: cherry blossom inspired dress, Hotaru?
NeitherNorist Ohl: should I wait a bit longer till everybody settles in?
Hotaru Myoo: greeting!
Maxine Walden: nice to see you again, very nice dress
Hotaru Myoo: of course
Pema Pera: no go ahead NN
Pema Pera: there will always be coming and going
Hotaru Myoo: good to see you too Maxine!
Hotaru Myoo: NN?
Pema Pera: Maxine also got more flowery, since yesterday, Hotaru!
Hotaru Myoo: Neither?
Hotaru Myoo: Hello!
Pema Pera: Nor?
Hotaru Myoo: haha
Pema Pera: Or?
Maxine Walden: oh, yes, just a bit, but not as elegant and you, Hotaru
Maxine Walden: please, NN
Pema Pera: you’ll get hooked on shopping some day, Max!
Pema Pera: just you wait :>)
Hotaru Myoo: haha
NeitherNorist Ohl: how should one practice the meditation on the playing as being, if there is a situation like the earthquake?
Pema Pera: what do you think, NN?
Pema Pera: what would you do?
Hotaru Myoo: an addiction worth keeping at arms length
Hotaru Myoo: you look kewt Maxine!
Maxine Walden: thanks, Hotaru, a bit better than before
Hotaru Myoo: is that two questions or one?
NeitherNorist Ohl: if you worry about people who are close to you getting hurt, but you also know it is part of the impermanence of life, how do you reconcile?
Maxine Walden: interesting and important question
Hotaru Myoo: sorry to come and go guys…
Pema Pera: do you see something in need of reconciliation? Why not feel and act on both?
Hotaru had to go earlier than expected.
Pema Pera: bye Hotaru
Pema Pera: always nice to see you, short or long!
NeitherNorist Ohl: bye Hotaru
Maxine Walden: yes, Hotaru, see you soon, I hope
Pema Pera: Maxine, don’t you want to sit down?
Hotaru Myoo: _/!\_
Hotaru Myoo: namaste
Maxine Walden: oh, yes, I was waiting for the balloons to become cushions and I got lost in the conversation!
Mongo McGinnis: namaste
Pema Pera: NN, you can feel impermanence and still feel for others and help them
Pema Pera: where do you see the conflict?
NeitherNorist Ohl: isn’t there any difference between the impermanence of life and the permanence of being?
Pema Pera: What I call Being is beyong permanence and impermanence, because it is beyond time, beyond past-present-future time
Mongo McGinnis: permance of being?
Mongo McGinnis: ok
Pema Pera: what did you mean with permanence of being, NN?
NeitherNorist Ohl: is it experienceable?
NeitherNorist Ohl: I meant the being
Pema Pera: more than that
Pema Pera: any form of experience is already in Being
Pema Pera: Being is closer to us than our nose, our thoughts, our anything
Pema Pera: but we look for it far away
Pema Pera: that is our only problem
Pema Pera: every other problem is a derivative of that
Pema Pera: but now that we talk about impermanence and time.
Pema Pera: I don’t know whether Theo is away or not, but . . .
Pema Pera: By the way, Theo, I was intrigued by your mentioning time, the other day, as a topic of interest — can you say a bit more?
Maxine Walden: I may (I think he is away)
We would later hear that Theo had RL issues, so we will pick that topic up again some other day.
NeitherNorist Ohl: I see. However, if Being is all there is, what’s the point of helping anyone or feeling sorry for anyone?
Pema Pera: that question presumes there is a point — within a framework — within a system of thought
Pema Pera: Being is beyond frameworks
Pema Pera: so I could say anything to do with Being is pointless — but you have to take that in the right sense
Mongo McGinnis: hi trevor
Pema Pera: making a point, having a point, is limiting . . . .
NeitherNorist Ohl: Can you elaborate that a bit?
Pema Pera: Sure
Trevor Berensohn is trying to get in the door
Pema Pera: Trever please join us!
Pema Pera: welcome back
Trevor Berensohn: Good to see u still rezzing here =)
Pema Pera: hehe
Maxine Walden: hi, Trevor
NeitherNorist Ohl: hi Trevor
Pema Pera: yes, we all rise up from the grey fog. . . .
Theophrastus Nikolaidis: sorry cant focus on this as rl is in the way. will be back some other time.
Maxine Walden: see you later Theo
Trevor had managed to walk in, just when Theo left. So there were now five of us in the tea house.
Pema Pera: when a flower flowers, NN, the flower does not ask what is the point of flowering
Pema Pera: The flower just flowers
NeitherNorist Ohl: but we humans do ask, unless it is a mistake to be human
Pema Pera: when we ask “what is the point” we step outside of a situation, then we apply a framework, we then judge against the framework, so we are several steps removed from what is really going on
Pema Pera: yes, we humans ask
Pema Pera: and we have to learn to ask in the right way
Trevor Berensohn: Is there really any way to be un-removed while thinking?
NeitherNorist Ohl: the point on framework is a fair one
Trevor Berensohn: Ah
NeitherNorist Ohl: there is a tendency of humans to transcend ourselves, for good or ill
NeitherNorist Ohl: that’s why we can’t just be
Pema Pera: we already are
Pema Pera: we just have to see it
Pema Pera: I’m not trying to be difficult
Pema Pera: I’m answering directly
Pema Pera: and I mean it
NeitherNorist Ohl: No, I understand what you are saying, in a way
NeitherNorist Ohl: I don’t think you are being difficult at all :)
Pema Pera: And believe me, I have to keep reminding myself too
Trevor Berensohn: So you’re thinking this isn’t all some cosmic mistake, Pema?
Pema Pera: No, Trevor, not at all
Pema Pera: that is another framework
Pema Pera: we have to drop such judgements
Trevor Berensohn: But a cosmic something else more fun?
Pema Pera: otherwise we cannot see
Pema Pera: let’s be slow
Pema Pera: let’s step back
Trevor Berensohn: kk
NeitherNorist Ohl: switching between frameworks is an important insight about humans
I then pulled out a few more stops.
Pema Pera: let’s look at all the threehundred twenty five assumptions that go into a single sentence like “So you’re thinking this isn’t all some cosmic mistake,”
Pema Pera: seriously
Pema Pera: there is so much implied already
Pema Pera: and our task is to subtract
Pema Pera: not to add
Pema Pera: we have to unfold
Pema Pera: take off all the covers
NeitherNorist Ohl: sounds like the Tao Te Ching
Pema Pera: yes!
Pema Pera: exactly
Trevor Berensohn: that many? oh my…
Pema Pera: once you get into the habit of doing that
Pema Pera: the Tao Te Ching becomes an open book
Pema Pera: very very clear and precise
Pema Pera: well, more than 325 ;>)
Pema Pera: I only pointed at the major ones (^_^)
NeitherNorist Ohl: How do you substract though? Isn’t that the key?
Trevor Berensohn: Whoa I think i’ll need to do some reading up then
Pema Pera: no reading
Pema Pera: no focus on any particular thing right now
Pema Pera: reading is another vice we have to drop
Trevor Berensohn: kk not right now
Pema Pera: if we want to stop
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: I know I sound crazy
Pema Pera: and I don’t imply that we should stop reading
Trevor Berensohn: No it’s all good stuff so far
NeitherNorist Ohl: I love to read, the good stuff I mean
Pema Pera: but rather that reading won’t help in stopping
Maxine Walden: not at all, Pema, what you are saying needs to be said over and over again to most of us, I think
Pema Pera: reading is another handicap, barrier
Pema Pera: to myself too, Max
NeitherNorist Ohl: Can you read without reading?
Maxine Walden: yes, I believe that too
And I pulled out another stop, at the danger of introducing too much religious talk; it did seem relevant though.
Pema Pera: there is limited room for reading, yes, but the main pont is to close all books, every 15 minutes, for 9 seconds, and to be totally alone with God
Maxine Walden: (lovely conversation, just to say I have to leave for anothe meeting in about 3 min)
Pema Pera: in Christian terms
Pema Pera: or totally in suchness or emptiness or openness
Pema Pera: totally open to Being
Trevor Berensohn: Or emptiness in Buddhist terms?
Pema Pera: yes
NeitherNorist Ohl: isn’t being devastivated in the earthquake also a way of being with God?
Trevor Berensohn: I think it can or can’t be, but consciously?
Pema Pera: well, that is a question that can be asked very simply but takes a thoughtful answer, NN.
Pema Pera: more than a single sentence
Trevor Berensohn: whoops wrong term lol
Pema Pera: in principle, nothing is excluded, but in practice I don’t want to say that lightly . . . . . yes, for a totally realized person, but who of us are like that and can speak like that?
NeitherNorist Ohl: I can even understand that intellectually, but emotionally that is very hard to swallow
Trevor Berensohn: But it’s possible for all ppl to go from un- to realized?
Maxine Walden: will go now, lovely to see you all, hope to see you again soon.
NeitherNorist Ohl: bye Maxine
Pema Pera: bye Maxine!
Pema Pera: see you soon
Trevor Berensohn: Good to meet u Maxine
Maxine Walden: Bye, bye, yes, see you soon and good to meet you Tervor
After Maxine left, Trevor, NN, Mongo and I continued.
Pema Pera: Trevor, your question too has many assumptions
Trevor Berensohn: Haha I’m asking all the wrong questions tonite
Pema Pera: If you ask me “do you still drive a Mercedes” I cannot say yes or no
NeitherNorist Ohl: I don’t think there is such thing as a wrong question
Pema Pera: since I have never driven a Mercedes
Pema Pera: so the question is fine, indeed, NN
Pema Pera: but has no easy yes/no answer
Pema Pera: the answer lies in excavation
Pema Pera: excavating the prior assumption
Trevor Berensohn: Perhaps more or less useful questions, though
Pema Pera: Your last question had two hundred eighty seven assumptions ;>)
Trevor Berensohn: Yes, that
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: useful indeed
Pema Pera: but we won’t get to the bottom in one hour
Pema Pera: but each time we talk here, we let a little more light shine through
Pema Pera: so I’m enjoying this tremendously
NeitherNorist Ohl: I know I’ve been enjoying it enormously
Pema Pera: Mongo, do you want to add something? Sorry that I’m talking so much
Mongo McGinnis: i am sorry i cant connect tonight i have few things going on
By then Stevenaia dropped in, and he brought a fellow visitor, Dharma, an old friend of mine who had not visited our Play as Being sessions yet. Such a pleasure to see an old friend in a new situation.
Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
Pema Pera: Come join us
NeitherNorist Ohl: Hi Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pema, I may have brought a friend
Pema Pera: NN and Trevor are asking short questions that require very long answers ;>)
Pema Pera: Hi Dharma ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Dharma Voyager: smiles hi there
stevenaia Michinaga: tp’g is slow
Pema Pera: How nice to see you here ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Trevor Berensohn: Hello guys
NeitherNorist Ohl: Hi Dharma
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Dharma
Dharma Voyager: hello there
Trevor Berensohn: Wow
Pema Pera: I’m so glad you found your way to our tea house
Dharma Voyager: smiles
Mongo McGinnis: i have a space that no one interupts me when i meditate but i am not ther right now
Pema Pera: np Mongo, I’m glad you’re here
Pema Pera: Dharma is an old friend of mine
Pema Pera: in SL terms
Pema Pera: ;>)
Pema Pera: where time has a different meaning
NeitherNorist Ohl: Pema, is it even possible to talk across frameworks at all?
Pema Pera: sure, why not NN?
I tried to quickly fill in Steve and Dharma.
Pema Pera: we’ve been talking about ways that questions are framed, Steve and Dharma
Pema Pera: how many questions cannot be answered in the way they are posed
stevenaia Michinaga: listens
Pema Pera: they are very good questions, since they show you how to excavate assumptions that were underlying the question, that are false
Trevor Berensohn: after much excavation
NeitherNorist Ohl: because you said a while ago to the effect that questions arise in one framework cannot be addressed in another framework, or did I even understand you correctly?
Pema Pera: it depends
Pema Pera: sometimes they can be answered in a wider framework, often not in a paralllel framework
Ziana joined us at that moment, and again there were seven of us. Somehow we kept the tea house filled to the brim.
Pema Pera: Hi Ziana!
Pema Pera: Wow, so many old and new friends
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm
Ziana Tauber: Hiya
Pema Pera: Dharma and Ziana, you should talk together, when you get a chance
Pema Pera: something tells me you’ll hit it right off ;>)
Ziana Tauber: sounds good
Pema Pera: I haven’t introduced everybody here with all the comings and goings
Pema Pera: but what the heck
Pema Pera: we can just keep talking
Mongo McGinnis: i am sorry but there are too many distractions going on here
Ziana Tauber: please do
Mongo McGinnis: see you later
Trevor Berensohn: Good to see u Mongo
While Mongo got up to leave, Ziana became fully rezzed, and I saw that both of them had very similar gossamer wings. I found that quite striking, since my suggestion for the two of them to talk was based purely on the personal impression I had of both of them, not on any particular feature of their avatars.
Pema Pera: oh, and you even look similar, Z and D !
Pema Pera: hadn’t noticed that yet, since Ziana was still rezzing
Dharma Voyager: neat
Pema Pera: what fun — I just went on ways of thinking and communicating ;>)
Dharma Voyager: smiles
Ziana Tauber: might have to get my son in SL, he wants to learn Go
NeitherNorist Ohl: hey guys, I need to get going. It was great to meet and see you all. Till next time.
Trevor Berensohn: Go?
Ziana Tauber: Its a game
Trevor Berensohn: Good to meet u Neither
Trevor Berensohn: kk
Ziana refered to the fact that I had activated the go group, so above my head and name appeared the words “Go Player”, something I had already forgotten. Alas, at that time my internet connection acted up, so I had to log out and in again, which took a while. Stevenaia would later kindly send me his chat log snippet that I had missed. I figured from the log that many of us had instability problems with SL.
Pema Pera is Offline
Ziana Tauber: uh oh, DC
Trevor Berensohn: Haha
Ziana Tauber: So, what were you all discussing, may I ask?
Ziana Tauber: oh, no, am I here?
Ziana Tauber: ok, yah
Trevor Berensohn: I don’t see my chats
Ziana Tauber: you’re still here
Trevor Berensohn: Oops just got here too but I think it was
Trevor Berensohn: one of my questions had 350 assumptions he
Ziana Tauber: lol
Ziana Tauber: what was the question?
Trevor Berensohn: But who’s counting lol
Trevor Berensohn: “So you’re saying that this isn’t just one big cosmic mistake?”
Trevor Berensohn: HA
Ziana Tauber: ah, that assumes there is someone to make the mistake, : )
Trevor Berensohn: Did he accidently go or on purpose
Ziana Tauber: probably accident is my vote
Trevor Berensohn: lol that’s one….
Ziana Tauber: I think we might be the only two here
Trevor Berensohn: Yes it would seem so. Is this your first discussipon here?
Ziana Tauber: yes
Ziana Tauber: well, here like here
Trevor Berensohn: My fourth, or so
Ziana Tauber: I was in one somewhere else the other day
Trevor Berensohn: Yes, that
Trevor Berensohn: I like them
Trevor Berensohn: and like Pema and Dakini
Ziana Tauber: I am happy, I came here for discussions
Trevor Berensohn: I do tibetan Buddhist meditation, so looking at it this way works for me
Ziana Tauber: most people would thinking the thinking is work and the sitting is lazy
Pema Pera is Online
By the time I came back, I found Steve and Dharma and Ziana and Trevor all still there; judging from the conversation they had not all been visible oll the time, and even Ziana had not been visible to herself for a bit. Oh well, we learn to accept the quirks of SL.
Dharma Voyager: form is emptiness… emptiness form
stevenaia Michinaga: wb Pema
Trevor Berensohn: Hahaha no I understand
Ziana Tauber: OH, Steve is here, Hey Pema
Trevor Berensohn: Oh there u r Pema
Pema Pera: sorry internet connection broke . . . . for a while . . . still rezzing . . . z z z z z
Ziana Tauber: ya, you look funny
Pema Pera: you all look like you took a mud bath hehe
Ziana Tauber: OH, I saw a good quote and I can’t remember where
Trevor Berensohn: Ooops biz call brb
Pema Pera: It must have been Dharma’s spell getting me back online
Pema Pera: I saw “Dharma Voyager: form is emptiness… emptiness form”
Pema Pera: and at that moment I took on form
Pema Pera: and now Dharma does so too hahaha
Dharma Voyager: smiles pardon.. crash
Pema Pera: SL goes beyond words
Ziana Tauber: : )
Dharma Voyager: I was making a comment on Ziana’s comment on what she thinks a lazy buddhist is
Dharma Voyager: smiles
Dharma Voyager: or what ones does
Dharma Voyager: then the SL gods punished me
Dharma Voyager: hahahahahhaha
Pema Pera: hahaha
Ziana Tauber: lol
I thought this was a good time to tell a little more about how Dharma and I had met, several months ago, half an eternity in terms of SL time . . . .
Pema Pera: may I tell everyone how we met Dharma?
Dharma Voyager: sure thing
Dharma Voyager: smiles
Dharma Voyager: listens
Pema Pera: well, once upon a time
Dharma Voyager: oooo a story
Dharma Voyager: curls up comfy
Pema Pera: Pema was not very well versed in SL
Trevor Berensohn is back and listening
Pema Pera: he was wearing only a white hat
Pema Pera: the hat of a scientist
Ziana Tauber: where?
Pema Pera: and he left his red hat at home
Pema Pera: in SL
Ziana Tauber: was he wearing the hat?
Pema Pera: the hat of his Tibetan Buddhist interests
Pema Pera: metaphorical hats, Ziana ;>)
Ziana Tauber: lol
I got up to speed.
Pema Pera: so Pema was talking with other scientists
Trevor Berensohn: Ahhhh
Pema Pera: and starting up an astronomy organization with some friends
Pema Pera: called MICA:
Pema Pera: http://www.physics.drexel.edu/mica/
Pema Pera: so while doing so he was learning about SL
Pema Pera: and he had three questions
Pema Pera: every story quest has three elements
Pema Pera: so also for Pema
Pema Pera: one question was: how to get myself look decent as an avatar
Pema Pera: the looking-in-the-mirror question
Pema Pera: the second question was: how to explore SL for hobbies, like playing go, one of my hobbies
Pema Pera: the having-fun question
Pema Pera: the third question was: how to find out what people are doing here in terms of contemplation
Pema Pera: the having-it-all question
Pema Pera: So, our not-so-hero set off on his triple quest
Pema Pera: and tried to conquer the gods of SL search
Pema Pera: formidable gods
Pema Pera: they don’t let you pass through easily
Pema Pera: not like the benevolent Google gods
Dharma Voyager: smiles… kind ones… some search gods have more of a sense of humor
Pema Pera: the SL search gods are like the Buddhist protector gods, wrathful and hard to deal with
Pema Pera: but . . . . . .
Dharma Voyager: hahahhaha
Pema Pera: . . . . one day!
Pema Pera: . . . .Pema found
Dharma Voyager: (shushes)
Pema Pera: all of a sudden
Pema Pera: in one fell swoop
Pema Pera: there was ONE ENTRY that answered all his questions
Pema Pera: there was this mythological person
Pema Pera: that seemed to play a role as mentor, played go, and was involved as Buddhism
Pema Pera: the rest is history
Pema Pera: end of story
Alas, after an hour it had become time for me to go.
Trevor Berensohn: How all-encompassing
stevenaia Michinaga: only one?
Pema Pera: for now ;>)
Pema Pera: actually, I have to leave my hotel now
Pema Pera: 12 noon in Tokyo, check out time
Dharma Voyager: I’m still having horrible lag
Pema Pera: yeah, me too
Trevor Berensohn: Awwwwww
Pema Pera: everyone drops out and in.
Ziana Tauber: I thought you were typing for an awful long time
Dharma Voyager: should I remove any search critera from me?
Dharma Voyager: smiles
Trevor Berensohn: I look forward to more about assumptions soon Pema
Dharma Voyager: j/k
Pema Pera: nonono Dharma, stay as you are!
Pema Pera: sorry, Ziana, have to run
Ziana Tauber: cya
Pema Pera: wonderful meeting you all here!
Dharma Voyager: very neat.. I have been playing with wordpress
Dharma Voyager: oh see you next time!
Trevor Berensohn: Good to see u Pema
Pema Pera: be well, and as you know we gather here four times a day, 1 and 7 both am and pm
Pema Pera: so a next session is at most 6 hours away ;>)
Dharma Voyager: how do you choose the topic?
Ziana Tauber: : )
At that point Genesis walked in.
Pema Pera: he Gen!!!!
Pema Pera: Just when I have to leave
Trevor Berensohn: This is such an interesting and confusing place
genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
Pema Pera: the topic, Dharma, is Playing as Being
genesis Zhangsun: Oh too bad! :)
Pema Pera: so anything goes here
Pema Pera: as long as it is playful
Pema Pera: and everything is part of Being anyway
Ziana Tauber: like metaphorical hats and mirrors
Ziana Tauber: did I get that right?
Pema Pera: Genesis will explain!
Pema Pera: she knows it all ;>)
Pema Pera: bye everybody!
Pema Pera: hehe, Gen, good luck !
Dharma Voyager: nite nite
Pema Pera is Offline
I got up and left, and wondered what Genesis would do with the baton I had tossed toward her. Fortunately, Stevenaia kept a log, which he later emailed to me, so here is the continuation. It turns out that the party would go on for another hour!
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm
Ziana Tauber: I have a not so easy question
Ziana Tauber: anyone mind?
genesis Zhangsun: Yes please
genesis Zhangsun: this is the place to ask
Ziana Tauber: Ok, I understand “emptyness” being “based” on
dependent origination
Ziana Tauber: but I don’t understand how that rules out
reincarnation as opposed to rebirth
Ziana Tauber: ?
Trevor Berensohn: It does?
Ziana Tauber: I have read some who say it does
Trevor Berensohn: kk
Ziana Tauber: is just my current curiosity
Trevor Berensohn: First what’s the difference
Ziana Tauber: and may I say you Avatar, Trevor is way cool
Ziana Tauber: reincarnation is a “self” reborn
Ziana Tauber: rebirth is hmmmm
Trevor Berensohn: Oh thank you I love ur glasses =D
Ziana Tauber: rebirth is different
Ziana Tauber: but am having a hard time comeing up with the words
Dharma Voyager: is that across the board belief in reincarnation or mainly tibetan?
Trevor Berensohn: Ah alright I am new to TB study
Ziana Tauber: I think tibetan is less firm on that because of Tulku’s but I could be wrong
Dharma Voyager: the little I know is more Zen
Ziana Tauber: what does Zen have to say about it?
Dharma Voyager: I think that makes it a little different focus… but I really don’t know about it
Ziana Tauber: oh, well, is fun to try to work stuff out
Dharma Voyager: I’m not sure it depends on what form you are born into
Trevor Berensohn: Well I was asking similar questions of a friend today at lunch lol
Dharma Voyager: I’m really a beginer… really really a beginner but that seems a bit dualistic
Trevor Berensohn: Hard to put this “reborn” experience into words, eh
Ziana Tauber: ya
Trevor Berensohn: I can say I have the experience, but not necesarrily the memories
genesis Zhangsun: I am still not clear on what is meant by reborn v. reincaranted
I must say, I wouldn’t have known either. I am not familiar with these distinctions, though I can see that it might be interesting to make them.
Trevor Berensohn: So if hits self were this person here in this body, then no it’s not the same
genesis Zhangsun: what is reborn exactly
Ziana Tauber: reborn is causes continued, reincartion is a self
Dharma Voyager: in truth we have always been and we will always be?
Dharma Voyager: form or personality seems to be grasping at ego
genesis Zhangsun: isn’t it through the self through reincarnation that causes continue?
Ziana Tauber: but we as an “entity”?
Trevor Berensohn: I don’t see how being is even possible, but ok
Dharma Voyager: to “be” is to “are”
genesis Zhangsun: form is emptiness and emptiness is form
Dharma Voyager: I think
Ziana Tauber: oh, I heard this great line
Ziana Tauber: lets see
Ziana Tauber: instead of asking “what am I” we should as “what is I”
Dharma Voyager: I think that is probably where Zen and Tibetans kind of split… I may not be useful here…
Trevor Berensohn: it “isn’t” lol
Dharma Voyager: “we are”
Ziana Tauber: Oh, how can you not be useful?
Dharma Voyager: I’m so new… I really see things plainly
Ziana Tauber: oh I think there is an I it is just I is confused
Ziana Tauber: double entendre there Ima thinkin
genesis Zhangsun: In what way is there an I?
Ziana Tauber: sorry, spent all days looking for data entry errors
Ziana Tauber: in what way is there not
genesis Zhangsun: how is it confused?
Ziana Tauber: the I is confused by thinking it is separate
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmmm
genesis Zhangsun: you mean that our minds are constantly focused on this self so in that way you have to believe its there?
Trevor Berensohn: Perhaps “I” misses the point
Ziana Tauber: don’t think you have to believe it is there
Ziana Tauber: but yes, I guess we do in order to get along in the mundane world
At this point Dharma did burst out in song, and Ziana throw in a great dishwashing metaphor.
Dharma Voyager: I am he and you is he and you are me and we are all together
Dharma Voyager: smiles
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Trevor Berensohn: The collective we?
Ziana Tauber: ah, maybe I is just a tool to wash the dishes
genesis Zhangsun: How does it help us exist in this mundane world?
Trevor Berensohn: Not this I, Z lol
Ziana Tauber: lol
Ziana Tauber: ok, will try this one gen
Trevor Berensohn: But without going thru the exercise of “i”,awareness can’t happen
Trevor Berensohn: So I think a tool, yes
Trevor Berensohn: a non-existent tool, but it works
Ziana Tauber: hmmmmm
genesis Zhangsun: a raft to cross the river
Ziana Tauber: not non-existent
Dharma Voyager: self awareness is a means to an end
Trevor Berensohn: Only thing that does
Ziana Tauber: is not independently existent
Trevor Berensohn: inter-existent
Ziana Tauber: I am gonna have to work on how to explain the “mundane” think in chat
genesis Zhangsun: yes I think I understand you Ziana about the mundane world
genesis Zhangsun: you need to believe you exist to accomplish anything
Trevor Berensohn: So mind is collectively writing lots of seemingly separate fictions
Trevor Berensohn: ?
Ziana Tauber: I think we need to take it for granted
genesis Zhangsun: but I guess I ask you whether it helps because I often find it does not help
genesis Zhangsun: to focus on the self
genesis Zhangsun: it is actually distracting
Ziana Tauber: oh, not focus,
Ziana Tauber: I mean take it for granted
Dharma Voyager: A unfocused mind makes story lines for comfort… a focused mind has more chance to see the truth
The conversation touched upon other interesting points, from the transparency of self to the connection with Being.
Ziana Tauber: like if you drive a stick shift
Ziana Tauber: it is harder to shift if you are conscious of who is shifting, if at the same time yo have to work the clutch, turn on the turn signal, let off the gas, turn the stearing wheel, etc
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm or easier if you’re aware of all of it simultaneously
Ziana Tauber: can you do that? remember when you were starting to learn and you actually did pay attention to all that, we are lucky we’re still alive
Trevor Berensohn: But we learned
Ziana Tauber: and we forgot : )
Trevor Berensohn: Because we payed attention first
genesis Zhangsun: but perhaps Being is about a state where all that comes naturally
Trevor Berensohn: Now no need to
genesis Zhangsun: because perhaps it is our natural essence with which we connect
genesis Zhangsun: not a manual
genesis Zhangsun: not a guidebook
Ziana Tauber: what is our natural essence?
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Trevor Berensohn: that’s why meditation is a tool to get thru to perceiving directly
Trevor Berensohn: But is it needed after that?
Ziana Tauber: perceiveing what?
Ziana Tauber: I find I can’t meditate and drive very well
Trevor Berensohn: Emptiness
Thorberg dropped in, so again there were six: Dharma, Stevenaia, Trevor, Ziana, Genesis, and Thorberg.
Ziana Tauber: Hey Thor
Trevor Berensohn: Hey there
Thorberg Nordlicht: oh, hello; surprised to find anyone here at this hour; just wandered by; hope i’m not crashing the party
Dharma Voyager: unless it is driving mediation
Dharma Voyager: walking meditation
Dharma Voyager: wasking dishes meditation
Trevor Berensohn: Haha glad ur here
genesis Zhangsun: yes exactly Dharma!
Dharma Voyager: or living in the present perhaps?
Ziana Tauber: can you do driving meditation? tell me how
genesis Zhangsun: This is what zen is about for me
Thorberg Nordlicht: mind if i join you for a few minutes?
genesis Zhangsun: what meditation is
Ziana Tauber: please do
genesis Zhangsun: oh please do Thor
Ziana Tauber: driving meditation
Dharma Voyager: by driving and focusing on driving
Thorberg Nordlicht: thanks
Dharma Voyager: and not on the cell phone
Dharma Voyager: or the radio
Trevor Berensohn: Am I sitting funny?
Dharma Voyager: and not getting pissed off when the guy next to you cuts you off
Ziana Tauber: what about anticipating what the driver up ahead is gonna do?
Dharma Voyager: makes sens?
Dharma Voyager: it is part of the act of driving
Ziana Tauber: ah, I see
Trevor Berensohn: I like to um “hold” compassion or emptiness in my mind-set while doing all those things
genesis Zhangsun: but the most important thing in driving is to be present
Dharma Voyager: I would hope that it would be a part of giving yourself to that task
Trevor Berensohn: Is that similar?
Dharma Voyager: now you play with words
genesis Zhangsun: so that you can anticipate the guy ahead of you
Ziana Tauber: empty mind while driving, scarey : )
Dharma Voyager: I think this was the original topic.
genesis Zhangsun: I don’t think emptiness is about an empty mind
Dharma Voyager: why you can’t jump logical steps and expect an answer
Dharma Voyager: laughs
The atmosphere was getting even more playful.
Ziana Tauber: I was playing
Trevor Berensohn: It’s like “driving with intent” for me
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Trevor Berensohn: haha
genesis Zhangsun: lol
Ziana Tauber: shhhhh
genesis Zhangsun: well that was a lovely demonstration of manhood Trevor
Ziana Tauber: lol
Trevor Berensohn: I was sitting “wrong”
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: nice movements really!
genesis Zhangsun: fantastic avatar I agree
Trevor Berensohn: So had to flourish
Trevor Berensohn: TY it’s more how I feel than the human looking stuff
Ziana Tauber: how do you describe your avatar to soeone RL?
Trevor Berensohn: So were u saying that the only thing that gets “reborn” is karma?
Ziana Tauber: hmmmmmm, I think I was
Trevor Berensohn: I tell em “you remember, that one life…”
Trevor Berensohn: lol
Ziana Tauber: lol
Trevor Berensohn: Just more gray, not blue
Trevor Berensohn: Then they get it
Trevor Berensohn: Wait so we’re not emanations of mind??
Ziana Tauber: what is mind?
Trevor Berensohn: Oh wow
Types stopped by, and the party grew.
Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Types
Types Sideways: hi there
genesis Zhangsun: Welcome Types
Trevor Berensohn: Hi types
Types Sideways: slow rezzing
Ziana Tauber: Hey Types
Trevor Berensohn: more coolness
genesis Zhangsun: wow your wings are amazing!
Types Sideways: ty
Dharma Voyager: very nice
Thorberg Nordlicht: ((thinking: gotta get me some wings!))
Trevor Berensohn: that’s what I’m working on Z
Types Sideways: hehehe
Types Sideways: got a LM
Types Sideways: hehehe
Trevor Berensohn: LM?
Ziana Tauber: we are emanations for mind, our own mind, oh no
Thorberg Nordlicht: ((thinking: Dharma’s wings ain’t so shabby either :-))
Trevor Berensohn: hmmm leave out the “our”
Types Sideways: hehehe
Trevor Berensohn: lol
Types Sideways: true
Trevor Berensohn: Oh and “own” lol
Dharma Voyager: freebies I have many… if you would like some :)
Types Sideways: generous
Thorberg Nordlicht: ((thinking: uh, oh, did I think that out lowd))
Types Sideways: hehehe
Trevor Berensohn: (looks like it)\
Trevor Berensohn: heh
Thorberg Nordlicht: ((thinking: fingers can’t spell; i meant “loud”))
The conversation turned to practice.
genesis Zhangsun: I really appreciate all of your questioning Ziana
Ziana Tauber: oh, thanks, I start to get self conscious
genesis Zhangsun: practice is more difficult than theory I agree
genesis Zhangsun: I think it is exactly your type of questioning that leads to truth
genesis Zhangsun: so I really respect it
Trevor Berensohn: Is practice blissful at times for anyone else here tho?
Dharma Voyager: sometimes
Dharma Voyager: very much so
genesis Zhangsun: beyond bliss ;)
Trevor Berensohn: I wonder why I resist it when it’s so cooooool when I do
Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, i find practice to be “blissful” sometimes
Trevor Berensohn: haha we have no words huh
Ziana Tauber: I don’t know what bliss is besides what people in Boulder pretend to feel, but is warm and like a blanket sometimes
Trevor Berensohn: its’ THAT good
Types Sideways: when the I drops, the bliss seems to shine
Dharma Voyager: hahahahha
Thorberg Nordlicht: but the soto tradition teaches that that bliss is just as much an illusion as suffering
Trevor Berensohn: When you drops?
Dharma Voyager: agrees with Types
Types Sideways: the I that wants bliss
genesis Zhangsun: yes I like that yes the” I ” dropping
Dharma Voyager: (zen :)
Trevor Berensohn: Ah so is it as useful as suffering or a distraction?
genesis Zhangsun: *Types oops typo
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Thorberg Nordlicht: “i want bliss” is *still* a form of “attachment”
Types Sideways: :)
The discussion focused further on suffering.
Ziana Tauber: anyone read the latest Shambala sun?
Dharma Voyager: suffering is caused by grasping and aversion
Trevor Berensohn: I think itl stil helps in the beginning
Types Sideways: Shambala Sun
Types Sideways: yes
Ziana Tauber: is cool article in there
Thorberg Nordlicht: and the ultimate suffering is to grasp at bliss
Trevor Berensohn: Oooo do tell
Dharma Voyager: nods
Dharma Voyager: same as aversion to pain
Ziana Tauber: that “suffering” might be better translated as “unease”
Dharma Voyager: suffering is a kick to the groin
Dharma Voyager: laughs
Dharma Voyager: or knee
Trevor Berensohn has missed the point again
Types Sideways: unease
Ziana Tauber: I think suffereing is fairly easy to overcome
Types Sideways: not ease
Trevor Berensohn: haha
Types Sideways: interesting
Thorberg Nordlicht: “unease” = “dukha”
Ziana Tauber: just don’t get dramatic and suffering tends to be over
Ziana Tauber: unease on the other hand
Thorberg Nordlicht: first noble true: life is dukha (unsatisforyness)
Ziana Tauber: wow, that is hard to “get rid of”
Thorberg Nordlicht: *unsatisfactoryness
Dharma Voyager: or life is suffering
Ziana Tauber: I don’t think life suffers
Ziana Tauber: I think life is life
The notion of not-doing came up as well.
Thorberg Nordlicht: nothing you can *do* to make the mud settle out of the murky water
Types Sideways: true
Types Sideways: all doing
Trevor Berensohn: Oops I lagged
Thorberg Nordlicht: only the “action” of inaction
Types Sideways: wrong way
Thorberg Nordlicht: the effort of non-effort
Types Sideways: yes
Ziana Tauber: the humor of the absurdity
Types Sideways: :)
Thorberg Nordlicht: let the mud settle out of the water by leaving it alone and just observing
Trevor Berensohn: Then ur saying don’t meditate for the bliss
Dharma Voyager: or enjoy the mud
Dharma Voyager: accept it as it is
Ziana Tauber: I remember one day meditating
Thorberg Nordlicht: right! just observe
Ziana Tauber: and getting a little frustated that it wasn’t more peaceful
Trevor Berensohn: Ah I like that Thorb
Thorberg Nordlicht: if you grasp at the bliss, that too will cause suffering
Ziana Tauber: and then realized that that is exactly what it is
genesis Zhangsun: beyond bliss
genesis Zhangsun: beyond suffering
Types Sideways: meditation can help us notice something
Ziana Tauber: so I “chuckled” the rest of the time thinking “so this is meditation”
Thorberg Nordlicht: concur: “beyond bliss”
Dharma Voyager: mediation is the place where we can observe the mud
Ziana Tauber: to get beyond something one must first get there
Thorberg Nordlicht: if you “think” it’s meditation, it’s not
Dharma Voyager: not really meant to be peaceful
Dharma Voyager: smiles
Types Sideways: :)
Trevor Berensohn: Beyond seems to b a recurring theme
Ziana Tauber: like there is someone where to go, we’re funny
Types Sideways: going is the problem
Types Sideways: going away
Thorberg Nordlicht: GATE GATE PARA GATE PARASAM GATE BODHI SVAHA!
Dakini stopped by, perhaps called upon by Thorberg’s mantra :-)
Ziana Tauber: Hey Dakini
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Dakini
Thorberg Nordlicht: “beyond” = “gate”
Types Sideways: hi Dakini
genesis Zhangsun: welcome to your own teahouse
Ziana Tauber: Why can’t people chant in english? (another question I have)
Dharma Voyager: Namste
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Trevor Berensohn bows to Dakini
Dakini Rhode: hi! Just stopping by to say hi!
Types Sideways: good question
Dharma Voyager: (loves the heart sutra)
Ziana Tauber: hi!
Thorberg Nordlicht: ooh, now that’s very Zen; welcoming her to her own teahouse!
Types Sideways: :)
genesis Zhangsun: lol
genesis Zhangsun: Again wow what a stud!
Ziana Tauber: his robe hit me in the face, how zen
Ziana Tauber: hehehe
Types Sideways: :)
Trevor Berensohn: hahaha no it was an illusion
Trevor Berensohn: and what’s up with this cushion
genesis Zhangsun: well only virtually an illusion :)
Ziana Tauber: it was an illusion
Dakini Rhode: Trev you’re on the tinies cushion
Ziana Tauber: darn Gen types faster
Types Sideways: hehehe
Dakini Rhode: doing yoga :-)
Trevor Berensohn: What is that my dear?
Trevor Berensohn: Uh oh can’t have me doing that lol
genesis Zhangsun: lol
Ziana Tauber: looks painful from here
Trevor Berensohn: feels impossible
Dakini Rhode: looks very flexible :-)
Trevor Berensohn: =P
I guess for someone not present at the party at that time, the above exchange will remain shrouded in mystery, though we can make some guesses as to what might have happened :-).
Ziana Tauber: types did you change your hair color?
Types Sideways: depends
Types Sideways: what was I last time?
Ziana Tauber: maybe Wednesday
Types Sideways: a human
Types Sideways: like this?
Types Sideways: same hair
Ziana Tauber: I remember brown hair maybe, no biggy
Types Sideways: k
Dakini Rhode: lol Trevor you gonna stay there?
Trevor Berensohn: oops biz phone call sorry
Trevor Berensohn: Aaaahhhhhhhh
Ziana Tauber: Dakini you look like you
Dakini Rhode: my real avatar or my SL avatar?
Types Sideways: :)
genesis Zhangsun: I liked this question of yours Ziana about what is beyond and your metaphor that it was a place
genesis Zhangsun: could you talk more about that
Dakini Rhode: both i guess :-)
Ziana Tauber: ummm, meaning to get beyond you have to get somewhere first?
genesis Zhangsun: do you?
Green Tea (Gyokuro): Mmmhh… enjoy the best green tea Types Sideways
Ziana Tauber: if you use the word beyond it implies beyond somewhere
Dakini Rhode: beyond is beyond getting somewhere
Ziana Tauber: I think getting here is much harder than getting there
Types Sideways: true Dakini
Trevor Berensohn: Way!
Dakini Rhode: nowhere to go anyway
Trevor Berensohn: (sorry back to phone call lol)
Ziana Tauber: No, I am an american so there is always someplace to go and something to do
The conversation kept circling back to the notion of beyond.
Dakini Rhode: beyond is beyond here and there
Ziana Tauber: : )
genesis Zhangsun: could it be though that you stand oyes Dakini
Types Sideways: where do you go to find yourself?
genesis Zhangsun: sorry
genesis Zhangsun: oops
genesis Zhangsun: I concur Dakini
Ziana Tauber: Do you ever wonder how all of this would have been languaged if “buddhism” emerged in “english”?
Types Sideways: yes
Trevor Berensohn: Perhaps it is
Ziana Tauber: I really like how Robina Courtin goes on about how we need to demystify it all
genesis Zhangsun: so Dakini then if beyond is beyond here or there than it sounds like it is not a destination
genesis Zhangsun: is that correct
genesis Zhangsun: it seems like it cannot be compared to a destination
Dakini Rhode: my understanding is that beyond is beyond duality
genesis Zhangsun: it is not as though you get somewhere than you go beyond
Thorberg Nordlicht: gotta go; real life (dinner) calling; btw, i’m host/greeter tomorrow (Monday) evening at 7 PM; everyone please stop by if you’re available
genesis Zhangsun: yes exactly duality
Ziana Tauber: “going beyond” duality is a statement of duality
Types Sideways: bye Thor
Trevor Berensohn: Have a good din din Thor
genesis Zhangsun: lol
genesis Zhangsun: bye Thor!
Ziana Tauber: ya thor
Thor left, but aftersion, the conversation continued two hours (!) since the beginning of this session.
Dakini Rhode: how is that Ziana
Ziana Tauber: hmmmm,
Ziana Tauber: ok,
Ziana Tauber: what does “beyond” mean?
Trevor Berensohn: That it isn’t “this” or “that”?
Ziana Tauber: come to think of it it might have come from “be Yonder”
Ziana Tauber: yonder is over there
Trevor Berensohn: But isn’t NOT “this” or “that”?
Ziana Tauber: there can be no “over there” unles there is a here and there
Ziana Tauber: “here and there” is dualistic
Trevor Berensohn: OK why am I n the front row again
Ziana Tauber: cuz you bad
Types Sideways: hehehe
Trevor Berensohn: Nyahaha
Dakini Rhode: are we looking at the whole heart sutra or just the om gate gate paragate mantra?
Trevor Berensohn: Um didnt’ know we were looking at either
Types Sideways: say what?
Dakini Rhode: if you take the whole heart sutra the meaning is clarified
Ziana Tauber: someone would have to translate that for me
genesis Zhangsun: WOW!
Ziana Tauber: we weren’t doing heart sutra : )
Ziana Tauber: hmmmmm
Trevor Berensohn: we were doing parcheesey
Ziana Tauber: lol
Dakini Rhode: gone, gone beyond, gone utterly beyond, swaha!
Trevor Berensohn: Yes, that!
Ziana Tauber: beyond what?
Dakini Rhode: is that the “gone beyond” we were talking about?
Ziana Tauber: it started as beyond bliss I think
Trevor Berensohn: I think I just asked “does anyone else feel blissful when theny meditate?” and these ppl are DEEP
Types Sideways: maybe not beyond better
Ziana Tauber: lol,point Trev
Types Sideways: here
Dakini Rhode: yes
genesis Zhangsun: Yes
Trevor Berensohn: Love em
Various animals were invoked.
Dakini Rhode: i’m a bliss junkie
Ziana Tauber: I like pain sometimes, but its a secret (and no, not like that)
Types Sideways: glad you are Dakini
Trevor Berensohn: Is Steve here?
stevenaia Michinaga: always
Trevor Berensohn: Oh hi
stevenaia Michinaga: waves
Dakini Rhode: hey Steve
Trevor Berensohn waves back cheerfully
stevenaia Michinaga: …smile
Ziana Tauber: /wave
Trevor Berensohn: Hey!
Ziana Tauber: hehe
Dakini Rhode: Over here!
Ziana Tauber: got another one
Trevor Berensohn: wha-whaaaa?
Ziana Tauber: It seems like our mind is what makes it possible to get “enlightened” but don’t yhou think it is a huge hinderance, what if my dog is enlightened and I am just too arrogant to know
Trevor Berensohn: types, I have hair envy
genesis Zhangsun: first there is aHAHA
Ziana Tauber: I guess that is 2 questions
Types Sideways: LOL
genesis Zhangsun: oops again
Ziana Tauber: I have wing envy
Types Sideways: steady trever
Dharma Voyager: I think my cat’s are the buddha
genesis Zhangsun: HAHA
Ziana Tauber: (but he is raptor and I am insect so kinda scarey too)
Trevor Berensohn: I think I know a dog-Buddha
genesis Zhangsun: but they are not conscious
genesis Zhangsun: so they don’t know it
Dharma Voyager: just playing with that bug… well… till it is dead… but perhaps that is their way of really appreciating life
Dharma Voyager: smiles wide
genesis Zhangsun: ;):
Ziana Tauber: do we really know that?
Trevor Berensohn: lol Z
Dharma Voyager: Mu
Ziana Tauber: lol
Ziana Tauber: Dont you think Buddha must have laughed when he became enlightened?
Trevor Berensohn: His eyes say it quite clearly
genesis Zhangsun: when did he stop laughing?
Trevor Berensohn: Hope he still is
Trevor Berensohn: =D
Dakini mentioned meeting the 17th Karmapa, but alas, the chatlog stopped soon thereafter. I am looking forward to hearing more from her about that meeting!
Dakini Rhode: I was with a living buddha today
Types Sideways: you?
Dakini Rhode: the 17th karmapa
Trevor Berensohn: O very cool
Ziana Tauber: but is there a “laughed out loud” sutra? No! I think that is the price of insitutionalization
genesis Zhangsun: Oh wow Dakini!!
genesis Zhangsun: Where did you see him?
Ziana Tauber: Very cool, I missed out on the tickets
