2008.06.01 19:00 - Ones and Zeros

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    That evening, I dropped by in front of the tea house, and found Doug there already.

    Pema Pera: H Doug!
    doug Sosa: hello!
    doug Sosa: rather naked still, you too?
    Pema Pera: It takes time to rez . . ..
    doug Sosa: didn’t used to. I don’t think.
    Pema Pera: No it’s gotten worse
    doug Sosa: ah. do we go in?
    Pema Pera: over the last couple months
    Pema Pera: sure
    doug Sosa: loggin in is strange. i get rejected the first time, but the second always works.
    Pema Pera: fire wall issues?
    Pema Pera: perhaps?
    doug Sosa: no, don’t have one. just home in the woods next to the river.
    Pema Pera: then I don’t know
    doug Sosa: today, sunday, was, messy, like most sundays. hardware store, swim, socks, lunch in healdsburg, roaming around..
    doug Sosa: It is a pleasure to be here, but I’ve been thinking about the math part. in a way SL is an affirmation of pure cartesian dimensionality. I wnt to rebel.

    Athatlicus walked in.

    Pema Pera: Hi Athalicus!
    Pema Pera: In what way rebel, Doug?
    doug Sosa: Rebel agains the linearity of SL.
    Athalicus Brimm: Namaste. I am not interrupting am I?
    doug Sosa: no!
    doug Sosa: That is, as you point out, one of the good things about this medium.
    Pema Pera: not at all Atha!
    Pema Pera: Please have a seat and join us
    Pema Pera: how would you envision SL improving beyond what you call linearity?
    Pema Pera: Hi Pia!
    Pema Pera: welcome!
    doug Sosa: There is a felow in the Italian department (chair actually) who has written a very good book, Gardens and the Human Condition. He is also friends with michel Serres, french philosopher of sceince.
    doug Sosa: hi Pia.
    Pia Iger: Hi, Doug, Pema,
    Pema Pera: Hi Rowan!
    Rowan Masala: Hi everyone
    Rowan Masala smiles

    Pia and Rowan sat down, and we continued talking about the linearity that Doug had brought up, while Steve joined us as well.

    Pema Pera: Hi everyone! Doug just started mentioning a linearity in SL that he finds limiting
    Pema Pera: Doug, what is the linearity?
    doug Sosa: Since what we are doing in cybersapce is all aritmetic, it supports the illusion that the wrold is mathematical. I am not comfortable with this.
    Pema Pera: arithmetic??
    Pema Pera: doesn’t feel that way to me :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
    doug Sosa: The linearity is in the easy euclid generation of the sapces, and the numeric is the underlying engine of the computer and software.
    Athalicus Brimm: binary.. 1s and 0s floating about in increasing computational algorhithims?
    Rowan Masala: Hi Steve :)
    doug Sosa: yes.
    Pia Iger: Steve, Hi,
    Pema Pera: but the real world is also binary, made up out of atoms and we don’t seem to be too bothered by that . . .
    doug Sosa: and while the world can be approximated most of the time, in this way, it fails at crucial moments.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi all
    Athalicus Brimm: one could say cells in the body are their own microcosm of offs and ons.. ever switching, computating formulaes. etc
    doug Sosa: hi steven.
    Pema Pera: Yes, Atha, indeed!
    doug Sosa: No, the world is not binary. the atoms are capable of infinite states. In the presence of others their orbits are modified in complex analog ways.
    Pia Iger: I am not following..
    Athalicus Brimm: I am not talking atomic/quantum.. I am speaking in the more contained microcosm of the body.. medically speaking

    Holden joined us as well, so there were now seven of us.

    Pema Pera: Hi Holden!
    Holden Henig: hi
    doug Sosa: Neorons are not at all binary. The pulse depends on surrounding electrical fields in fluids, fluids filled with hormones. the space between cells, thesynapse, is not adirect contact, but separated by a field of fluids.
    Holden Henig: doug is correct
    Pia Iger: what does that have to do with SL?
    Athalicus Brimm: the linear nature of SL, as I have gathered as opposed to RL I believe, Pia
    doug Sosa: sl is mediated between us by computers which are 0,1machines. hence SL supports the idea that life is describable by such means, which i am sure is not the case.
    Athalicus Brimm: we could easily say love is but a collection of synaptic reactions in a matrix of hormones and collective consciousness.. but it is not as attractive
    doug Sosa: Yes, atticus
    Athalicus Brimm: I think you are using your intellect to such a scrutiny on the leaf, you forget the tree it is connected to and the forest
    Athalicus Brimm: :)
    Athalicus Brimm: I mean you no disrespect, mind you.. just an observation
    Pema Pera: Doug, if you make very detailed photograph of a painting, such that the human senses cannot distinguish from the original, are you then still bothered by the fact that the photograph may be digital, based on 1s and 0s? Why?
    doug Sosa: we could say that but we don’t, for good reason. take a chess board. The board and the game are coherent, and made of wood. dnothing here violates the laws of physics. but the game of chess, and the pattern on the wood is not deduceable from the physics.
    Athalicus Brimm: with my education and training I could look at a stream of water and say “ah, lovely little microscopic bonds of hydrogen and oxygenm, in a collective matrix” … Better to just enjoy its natural beauty
    Athalicus Brimm chuckles
    doug Sosa: I a not sure the photo is digital, if we are talking old gel photography. the spaces betwen the particles are analog
    Pema Pera: I think both are possible, Atha, that’s the richness of life, and many more are possible
    Athalicus Brimm: indeed, Pema.
    Pema Pera: But if the spaces are microscopic, Doug, and you can’t see them, what’s the problem?
    Athalicus Brimm: a scientist’s wonder and a layman’s aesthetic appreciation are no less a sense of awe
    Pema Pera: yes

    In the middle of this heated argument, Dakini walked in, and Steve and Rowan took off.

    Dakini Rhode: hello :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I have to depart, see you soon
    Pema Pera: Hi Dakini!
    Rowan Masala: as do I. goodnight, all
    Pema Pera: Bye Steve!
    Athalicus Brimm: take care Steve
    Pema Pera: Bye Rowan!
    doug Sosa: I don’t see it as digital. where does the digital come in to the photograph (old style)?
    Pia Iger: Hi, Dakini,
    Dakini Rhode: musical cushions?
    Pema Pera: yes, digitally so
    Pema Pera: two zeroes and one one

    In the sense of people coming and going in units of one at a time.

    Athalicus Brimm: greetings, Dakini. lovely to see you again
    Pema Pera: :)
    Dakini Rhode: hi Athalicus, doug, pia, pema :-)
    doug Sosa: hi.
    Pia Iger: I enjoy RL and SL without knowing more of scientific details.
    Pema Pera: Hi Solo!
    Dakini Rhode: heya Bill!
    Solobill Laville: Hello!

    It felt briefly like a cozy inn, with all the coming and goings. After Solobill entered, Earthkiss would walked in too.

    Pema Pera: Dakini and Solo, Doug has raised what he sees as a limitation in SL, that it is based on 1s and 0s
    Pema Pera: and we are talking about whether that really is a limitation in itself
    Pema Pera: and Atha and Pia and I seem to wonder whether that matters
    Dakini Rhode: depends what you mean by limitation
    Dakini Rhode: hello Earthkiss
    Pema Pera: Hi Earthikiss!
    Athalicus Brimm: any medium, despite its limitation, lack of aesthetic or creative formulation in a simulated construct.. that brings peoples together, to share some time in joy, peace and fellowship.. I am quite for it
    Pema Pera: Earthkiss
    Earthkiss Raymaker: hi
    Pema Pera: Come join us!
    Earthkiss Raymaker: random touchdown
    Pema Pera: take a seat if you like
    Earthkiss Raymaker: sure
    Dakini Rhode: well said, Athalicus
    Pema Pera: you picked a good group to randomly join, Earth :-)
    Dakini Rhode: since this is the use we have made of it here :-)
    Earthkiss Raymaker: luck is with me today
    doug Sosa: I am always strick by how people’s appearance ere rminds me of people in RL. Those ghosts do not go away, in fact they cohere to the avatars.
    Pema Pera: haha
    Pema Pera: not too hot, Earth?
    Solobill Laville: Ouch!
    Dakini Rhode: the hotseat
    Athalicus Brimm: careful one does not get toasted bums
    Earthkiss Raymaker: oops

    Earth had by mistake sat down right on top of the hearth.

    Athalicus Brimm: Dakini or I do not bite, I assure you… do have a seat.
    Dakini Rhode: how do you know i do not bite?
    Athalicus Brimm chuckles, slight blush
    Pema Pera: Have you been in this area before, Earth?
    Pema Pera: hehe
    Athalicus Brimm: I shall keep my teeth together on that matter, then..
    Dakini Rhode: haha
    Earthkiss Raymaker: hmmm cant seem to sit on the cushions
    Earthkiss Raymaker: no
    Earthkiss Raymaker: first time here
    Earthkiss Raymaker: what is this place
    Athalicus Brimm: right now.. seems a existenstialists dream
    Pema Pera: Dakini here leads a zen session every day at 6 pm SLT around the corner, having a quiet group of avatars sitting and meditation for 20 minutes
    Dakini Rhode: do you use windows or apple, Earth?
    Pema Pera: As for this place, http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/ gives the background
    Earthkiss Raymaker: macbook pro
    Pema Pera: me too
    Pema Pera: way to go :)
    Dakini Rhode: how do you sit, Pema?
    Pema Pera: right click, choose sit, usual thing
    Solobill Laville: Very carefully!
    Pema Pera: there you go!
    Dakini Rhode: yay!
    Earthkiss Raymaker: ahh worked that time

    After Earth had sat down, I mentioned the mean PaB idea.

    Pema Pera: Earth, http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/ gives the summary
    Pema Pera: but the basic idea is that
    Pema Pera: in RL, when we feel like
    Pema Pera: we spend 9 seconds every 15 minutes
    Pema Pera: stopping what we do to smell the roses
    Pema Pera: then later in SL
    Pema Pera: we talk about what the roses smelt like
    Pema Pera: four times a day
    Pema Pera: every six hours
    Pema Pera: 1 am 7 am 1 pm 7 pm
    Pema Pera: with ever changing group of participants of course
    Pema Pera: we do sleep!
    doug Sosa: and playful.
    Dakini Rhode: (some do)
    Athalicus Brimm: some..
    Pema Pera: (Hotaru doesn’t)
    Pema Pera: (always online)
    Pema Pera: (I’ll prove my point)

    I just couldn’t resist to call up exhibit A: Hotaru herself, to show that, indeed, she (almost) never sleeps, so I sent an IM. She landed in the middle of the crowd, having then to do some gymnastics to get out of the circle before sitting down.

    Athalicus Brimm: so… now that we are all settled.. is the subject put to rest. or a new one?
    Hotaru Myoo: I didn’t do it
    Pema Pera: Hotaru always has new topics!
    Hotaru Myoo: I didn’t do it
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Pema Pera: hey you, sleepless beauty!
    Solobill Laville: That was impressive…
    Pema Pera: something fairy tale like
    Dakini Rhode: Hotaru, that tickles
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Pema Pera: wow
    Pema Pera: another perspective!
    Pema Pera: more firefly like actually
    Hotaru Myoo: lol
    Solobill Laville: Wowza!!!
    Hotaru Myoo: am I the entertainment here?

    Yes, it seemed that way :-). Hotaru had sat down on a tinies cushion, and as a result her avatar got folded up like origami, actually leading to a very pretty effect.

    Solobill Laville: lol
    Dakini Rhode: like a flower
    Pema Pera: always, Hotaru!
    Dakini Rhode makes note to self:
    Solobill Laville: That was a wonderful display of 0’s and 1’s!
    Dakini Rhode: if summoned by Pema, make an excuse
    Pema Pera: hehe
    Hotaru Myoo: just a sec…
    Hotaru Myoo: brb
    Dakini Rhode: so what about the 0s and 1s?
    Solobill Laville: Yes, I missed the beginning of that as well.
    Hotaru Myoo: ei ei oh
    doug Sosa: the computer is a great army of well organized zeros and ones, but the RL is not.
    Dakini Rhode: true
    Solobill Laville: Ah, but what is RL made up of then?
    Athalicus Brimm: first few verses of Dhammapada, though, give good perspective. RL or SL

    Athatlicus was refering to Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one’s shadow that never leaves. See http://www.serve.com/cmtan/Dhammapada/

    doug Sosa: however deep you go there is stuff and pattern above and below.
    Athalicus Brimm: software can hold the collective energies of the programmers who created it.. does not the RL likewise? :)
    Dakini Rhode: “like a dream, like an illusion”…
    Solobill Laville: Yes and yes.
    Hotaru Myoo: floating text?
    Athalicus Brimm: “God the first programmer.”
    Athalicus Brimm chuckles
    Solobill Laville: Then who is the RL creator?
    doug Sosa: the amount of structure between any two pints is specific and limited in SL. this is not true of RL.
    Dakini Rhode: trick question
    Solobill Laville: (yes, sorry)
    Athalicus Brimm: “architect, you shall never again raise this house”
    Dakini Rhode: :-P
    Pema Pera: Doug, if two or more avatars talk with each other through a medium of 1s and 0s, but use that medium to share their heart’s feeling — how can that be limited in any real way?
    Pema Pera: if their hearts are not limited?
    Athalicus Brimm: I can see Pema’s avatar face, yet I would know his heart RL, would I not? :)
    doug Sosa: If we include the heart feeling on both sides as well as the compute, no limit, just as in RL.
    Hotaru Myoo: it’s all at the source
    Pema Pera: :)
    doug Sosa: A difference is, if I reach out to touch you here, i quickly find a level of one’s and zeros, pixels.
    Hotaru Myoo: initial conditions that decide the ultimate outcome
    doug Sosa: But in rl, i touch you there is no limit to the depth even at the mere physical level.
    Athalicus Brimm: well, until we get pressure sensitive cyber-suits for our online experience..lol
    Hotaru Myoo: what is previously known and ‘programmed’

    The topic of 1s and 0s kept fascinating us.

    Pema Pera: you can choose to focus on that, Doug, but you can make that same choice in RL, I can view you in terms of nerves and hormones, but I prefer not to.
    Hotaru Myoo: a sum of ingredients?
    Hotaru Myoo: plus spices
    Pema Pera: not solely in any case
    Hotaru Myoo: stir
    Solobill Laville: shake
    Dakini Rhode: or shaken?
    Dakini Rhode: jinx bill
    doug Sosa: I do prefer the poetry level, the raw guts of it all.
    Athalicus Brimm: I think we lose a bit of humanity when we see people as just statistics.. a collection of nerves and hormones as Pema says it.
    Solobill Laville: buy me coke.
    Hotaru Myoo: lol
    Dakini Rhode: too much 007
    Pema Pera: poetry is exactly a few letters, strung together, Doug, how digital can you get ? ? !? !?!?!
    doug Sosa: the letters are not the meaning.
    Pema Pera: The fact that, as yo say, poetry is connected with raw guts
    Athalicus Brimm: letters convey.
    Pema Pera: is what the 1s and 0s here do too
    Athalicus Brimm: the person gets the meaning to themself
    Dakini Rhode: good analogy :-)
    Dakini Rhode: SL a poem
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pia Iger: I am reading and eating here.
    Dakini Rhode: a drawing
    Athalicus Brimm: “All the world of SL is bit a whirlwind of 1s and 0s, but what a pretty stage it all makes”
    Pema Pera: yes
    Dakini Rhode: a stage
    Dakini Rhode: good analogies
    Pema Pera: here as in RL or SL, Pia?
    Solobill Laville: a movie
    Pia Iger: RL

    We got more and more inspired, with a nod to Bob Dylan.

    Hotaru Myoo: ah the drama
    Dakini Rhode: a water moon
    Solobill Laville: yep
    Dakini Rhode: not the moon, but reflects the moon
    Pema Pera: the depth of the drop is the height of the moon
    Pema Pera: (Dogen said that)
    Dakini Rhode: plop
    Athalicus Brimm: “eat another cookie and I will swat your hand with my ladel”
    Athalicus Brimm: (grandma said that)
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Pema Pera: I have to leave now, alas
    Pema Pera: (Pema said that)
    Dakini Rhode: a lass
    Athalicus Brimm: yet who is Pema, who is grandma and who is Dogen
    Athalicus Brimm chuckle
    doug Sosa: yes. dishes to do.
    Pema Pera: please continue, and if someone can send me the chat log of the rest, I’d appreciate it — better two than zero :-) piet@ias.edu
    Pema Pera: See you all soon again!
    Athalicus Brimm: dishes are a good metaphor for life..
    Solobill Laville: Bye
    Athalicus Brimm: clean, dirty, clean.. use, reuse, use again
    Dakini Rhode: bye
    Pia Iger: bye, Pema.
    Athalicus Brimm: take care Pema
    Pema Pera: Bye all!
    Dakini Rhode: i must be going also - past my bedtime
    Solobill Laville: Yes, then eventually, the dish cracks

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